WWYD? Entitled attitude from child

[Carol in Cal.]

Something I don't think any one has mentioned is how great it is that your daughter wants to make things, things she comes up with herself, and make up stories, and use her imagination.  I know kids who never have the mental or physical space or inclination to do that, though it's the basis for a lot of creativity down the road.  That's tremendously valuable!  I would want to reward and encourage it.

 

One of the main reasons I homeschooled was to create the 'timespace' for DD to develop and retain her own 'voice'.  I wanted her to be bored and have to figure out her own stuff.  I wanted her to have time to make things up--I could see that she was inclined that way, and I wanted her to be able to develop that.  

 

You're giving your child the gift of unscheduled time, and the raw materials to make good use of it.  That's great.

[Katy]

Pushing back is age-appropriate and expected.  But I'd draw the line at whining and tantrums, up to and including taking all Legos away for a while - possibly a day, possibly two weeks. Tantrums and whining wouldn't be acceptable at that age for any reason, and to me that the natural consequence of not being able to handle legos and still act respectfully would be to take them all away for a while.  After plenty of proper warning, of course.  It would probably be a 3-strikes and you're banned from legos for the day to start, escalating to a week or more for repeated offenses.

 

Frankly, asking the girls if they want to share bedrooms to make space for a lego room is something I'd be open to as well, but I only negotiate like this with children who can do so calmly and respectfully, without losing it, whining, screaming, or tantrums.  Note:  don't announce the no-whining or losing-it rule in the midst of a child whining and losing it.   Give them a time out, or send them to their room to take some deep breaths until they truly relax, and announce this rule (and the consequences) when they are calm.

 

Demanding that they stop tantruming in the middle of a tantrum would be the equivalent of a spouse telling you to "Calm down!" when you're already angry - infuriating.

 

This alternating between whining and acting like a toddler, and condescending know-it-all-going-on-30 is why I think the tween stage is the most challenging though.  Repeatedly thinking, No! You do not know everything, and no! you may not tantrum like a 2 year old just because you're not getting your way this very instant! might be my least favorite aspect of parenting.

 

Deep breath.  This too will pass.

[mommyoffive]

I agree that this sounds pretty normal for the age.

 

That said, I share your concern about the difficulty of raising a grounded child when everything comes so easy for them.  I struggle with that too.  I can't say I have the answers.  I try to look for opportunities for them to work for what they get etc., but they are still indulged beyond my wildest childhood dreams.  Today I was showing them photos from my childhood - my 3 sibs and me sharing one small bedroom, and all our toys and books in a couple modest cupboards in one corner.  And us smiling happily while playing in that corner.  I have no idea if they noticed the contrast.

 

If you have opportunities to volunteer with your kids helping less fortunate kids (e.g. at a shelter or hospital), maybe that would help her to stop taking goodies for granted.

 

My 10yo recently got excited about lego, and she started building her stuff in the common areas.  In her defense, the light fixture in her room is broken, and anyway, we'd rather she not go hide in her room all the time.  But all over the floor was jut not working for us - especially since a lego construction site is impossible to move out of the way when people come over.

 

My solution has been to find a sturdy but lightweight base (or bases) on which she can build her lego stuff.  She can then easily move it out of the way when we need the space or when we just want the place to look neater.

 

 

I struggle with this too.  I had a pretty ok life.  Things were not easy but I didn't notice until I was older.  My kids are so indulged.  Nuts.   To the point that we gave up giving them gifts for holidays because they were getting way to much from family.  They are the only grandkids on both sides.  We try to limit things but nobody even agrees to change things. 

 

I really want them grow up to be good people.  

Work hard.  Help others. Not be spoiled and not to brag. 

 

I am always thinking about that and looking for ways to combat the problem

[Bluegoat]

Sounds normal, somewhat entitled t me, and also probably will be grown out of.  But your rules are reasonable.

 

A playroom or rec room would be nice, in a new place, but I'd personally tend to go for smaller bedrooms in that case - maybe even a larger room with smller spaces for privacy  with some kinds of movable walls or barriers.

 

That being said, toys and activities and lego/Barbie school/fort set-ups, IME, will expand to fit whatever space you allow.  So, it won't necessarily really make for less complaints or even better play.

[ikslo]

My 10yo recently got excited about lego, and she started building her stuff in the common areas.  In her defense, the light fixture in her room is broken, and anyway, we'd rather she not go hide in her room all the time.  But all over the floor was jut not working for us - especially since a lego construction site is impossible to move out of the way when people come over.

 

My solution has been to find a sturdy but lightweight base (or bases) on which she can build her lego stuff.  She can then easily move it out of the way when we need the space or when we just want the place to look neater.

 

Our solution is just not to have people over... :leaving:

 

We couldn't walk in our living room - too many Legos.  Our solution to that was to remove some of the furniture so we could have a walkway to the back door.  Through the Legos. :laugh:

 

He plays with them every day.  I can't image asking him to clean them up, or play in some room removed from the rest of the family.  Not better, not worse, just different.

 

 

 

I love reading The Chat Board.  So many different families.

[ktgrok]

I think the issue isn't that she wants space for the legos...the issue is that she isn't understanding or taking into consideration the needs and wants of the rest of the family. And that may be typical for her or not..but that's the issue I'd address. Wanting a bigger space for legos is not a character issue. Wanting it at the expense of the toddler's safety or mom's sanity or just the right of others to have lego free areas IS a character issue (although not a major one). So stop thinking about her wants, (you want a new house...wanting is fine) and focus on her having more consideration for the other family members. I think if you frame it that way you'll get better results, she may not have considered it from that point of view. 

 

And in general, don't worry too much....she's normal :)

[Guest]

If it was a boy and a model train layout, what would you do?

[EmseB]

If it was a boy and a model train layout, what would you do?

Just out of curiosity, why does the gender of the child make a difference? Or the kind of toy?

[eternalsummer]

From when ds was 2 till when he was 8, we either had to pick our way through train tracks or Lego :)

 

He didn't have his own room till  he was 10 (!) and we didn't have a playroom, so the loungeroom and hallway it was. He did have to keep it out of the girls' room, and off the kitchen floor.

 

I actually have some pretty sweet memories of all that construction. 

 

I will say that the last three years have been very neat...I'm still not over the novelty of being able to vacuum without a laborious process of transferring creations off the floor. 

 

We did still have people over - the kind who didn't mind stepping over train track or having a cuppa next to a Lego creation!

 

When people came to visit (or even just came in for a second), my dad would always say in greeting, "Come see how poor people live."  I never worried about how our house looked (although we were pretty neat, as we were a family of 4 with 2 girls and no legos), and Dad's attitude that you as a visitor were taking us as we were, and that keeping up with the Joneses was not an admirable quality, helped keep me grounded that way.

[MotherGoose]

Something I don't think any one has mentioned is how great it is that your daughter wants to make things, things she comes up with herself, and make up stories, and use her imagination. I know kids who never have the mental or physical space or inclination to do that, though it's the basis for a lot of creativity down the road. That's tremendously valuable! I would want to reward and encourage it.

 

One of the main reasons I homeschooled was to create the 'timespace' for DD to develop and retain her own 'voice'. I wanted her to be bored and have to figure out her own stuff. I wanted her to have time to make things up--I could see that she was inclined that way, and I wanted her to be able to develop that.

 

You're giving your child the gift of unscheduled time, and the raw materials to make good use of it. That's great.

That's truly why we are where we are. When she complains about not having enough time to play she says (and I have definitely emphasized this) "But you wanted me to have time to PLAYYYY! ". balance, my dear.

[MotherGoose]

Pushing back is age-appropriate and expected. But I'd draw the line at whining and tantrums, up to and including taking all Legos away for a while - possibly a day, possibly two weeks. Tantrums and whining wouldn't be acceptable at that age for any reason, and to me that the natural consequence of not being able to handle legos and still act respectfully would be to take them all away for a while. After plenty of proper warning, of course. It would probably be a 3-strikes and you're banned from legos for the day to start, escalating to a week or more for repeated offenses.

 

Frankly, asking the girls if they want to share bedrooms to make space for a lego room is something I'd be open to as well, but I only negotiate like this with children who can do so calmly and respectfully, without losing it, whining, screaming, or tantrums. Note: don't announce the no-whining or losing-it rule in the midst of a child whining and losing it. Give them a time out, or send them to their room to take some deep breaths until they truly relax, and announce this rule (and the consequences) when they are calm.

 

Demanding that they stop tantruming in the middle of a tantrum would be the equivalent of a spouse telling you to "Calm down!" when you're already angry - infuriating.

 

This alternating between whining and acting like a toddler, and condescending know-it-all-going-on-30 is why I think the tween stage is the most challenging though. Repeatedly thinking, No! You do not know everything, and no! you may not tantrum like a 2 year old just because you're not getting your way this very instant! might be my least favorite aspect of parenting.

 

Deep breath. This too will pass.

I was thinking today that I would rather keep two toddlers, or perhaps even three, alive, fed, and with clean diapers than to deal with one "tweeney" tantrum. The toddlers do at least nap (mine do anyway, and they can't talk back). Give them some dirt, water, snacks, and a nap, and they are happy!

[MotherGoose]

Does she maybe have an unmet emotional need elsewhere?

 

Maybe its a Love Language issue. If you're not getting your primary love language met, then you fight tooth and nail for the secondary one. So "Thing X is really important, but is only met 4%, but thing Y isn't so important, but it is met 80%, so if I push really hard maybe I can bump that up to 175%, and then I'll feel better."

 

For example, making and providing food is a love language to my eldest. It makes him upset when I don't get up and pour him a cup of milk, even though I am trying to get him to be self-responsible and self-sufficient. He will also regularly ask his grandpa to make him a sandwich that he can very well make himself, which looks very lazy and self-centered. When I ask him why he says that sandwiches his grandpa make taste better. Which is rationally false, but emotionally true - he feels love in every bite of that grandpa-made sandwich. If I cut off that love language his demands and pleas for other things, selfish silly things he doesn't really want, skyrockets.

 

Now, my kid probably has no idea that he has a love language or that the way he feels even has a pattern. Most people don't. So if you ask your DD if she has an unmet need that she's trying to make up for with Lego's she'll probably say no. But that doesn't mean that the need doesn't exist.

There is definitely some truth to this. Today she pitched another fit (unrelated to Legos) but resulted in her having to stay home from an activity. We spent some very pleasant time together and things have been better for the past 8 hours. :D. One problem is that her love language is in opposition to what I feel emotionally able to give sometimes.

[MotherGoose]

If it was a boy and a model train layout, what would you do?

The gender is completely irrelevant to me. Depending on the model train layout, I might have more mercy. I was briefly interested in model trains as a child/ teen, sparked by my father and uncle and visiting my moms friends house whose husband had model trains running throughout the house through holes cut in the walls. My parents gave me a piece of plywood on which to mount the train tracks, which involved using a screwdriver to put the screws into plywood (a lot more work than snapping together Legos). the mess was confined to the piece Of plywood.

[MomatHWTK]

Mentioning the tween thing reminded me, all of my olders went through a personality transition starting at 10 or 11. I was most shocked by my DD because she became very different. If you haven't already- it is probably time to start introducing those talks and buying those books for her. Try to keep in mind that her body is messing with her emotions and it is very possible that they are messing with you, too. My SIL has three daughters. She says it can get pretty scary at her house during some weeks. 

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Mentioning the tween thing reminded me, all of my olders went through a personality transition starting at 10 or 11. I was most shocked by my DD because she became very different. If you haven't already- it is probably time to start introducing those talks and buying those books for her. Try to keep in mind that her body is messing with her emotions and it is very possible that they are messing with you, too. My SIL has three daughters. She says it can get pretty scary at her house during some weeks. 

 

 

Yes!  This.  How did I not think of that?  Of course her hormones are wreaking havoc on her emotions at this age.  She is likely feeling very out of control and maybe a bit frightened at her own reactions.  

 

Just this evening, my 11yodd and I attended a "Mother/Daughter Night", with a woman doctor sharing with about 50 sixth grader girls and their mothers, all about puberty and the changes they have/are/will experience.  She gave us a list of books/resources about various aspects of this exciting/confusing/sometimes scary/many times inconvenient time in a girl's life.  I'd be happy to scan the list and send it to anyone who PMs me their e-mail address.

[MomatHWTK]

On the plus side, my DD is past the uncontrollable weeping stage now.  :lol:

[maize]

+1 to keeping perspective on hormonally driven emotions. This is a hard age for a kid--feelings are BIG and unfamiliar and we tend to expect them to cope with life as if their body and brain weren't going through massive adjustments.

Edited February 23, 2017 by maize

[MotherGoose]

Yes! This. How did I not think of that? Of course her hormones are wreaking havoc on her emotions at this age. She is likely feeling very out of control and maybe a bit frightened at her own reactions.

 

Just this evening, my 11yodd and I attended a "Mother/Daughter Night", with a woman doctor sharing with about 50 sixth grader girls and their mothers, all about puberty and the changes they have/are/will experience. She gave us a list of books/resources about various aspects of this exciting/confusing/sometimes scary/many times inconvenient time in a girl's life. I'd be happy to scan the list and send it to anyone who PMs me their e-mail address.

We have had talks about things and she asked very pointed questions about how my toddler Camembert into existence so she knows. That reminds me that I need to sign her up for one of those classes too! But I'll pm you email Thank you!

[Reefgazer]

My kids had a Lego city all through the upstairs hallway when they were younger and we left them there for weeks - tripped over, them stepped on them, the whole 9 yards. I loved the creativity so I put up with it; we just didn't have the room for a second play room. I wouldn't take this as a character issue.

[Bluegoat]

I understand the feeling about charachter though. My dd12 is very lucky - she gets to do a lot of fun things and we spend a lot of time and oney on the kids, even though we aren't hugely well off.

 

But the things she complains about sometimes!  Mainly about expectations around helping out, where I apparently "ruin her life" and all her other friends are bete=ter off and don't have to do things.  If she really thought that way, it would be incredibly entitled - essentially she would be thinking I should be her servant taking care of all her whims and asking nothing.

 

I know she doesn't really though, because it's intermittent.  Most of the time she's very generous and helpful.

[mom of 2 boys]

. But dd began whining and said other people have playrooms in which to play, only, and so should she!! (After discussion we agreed that no one she knows in real Iife lives in such nirvana.). 

 

One thing that concerns me is that we are seriously considering building a bigger house because I don't love this one. 

 

I think that it is normal for children to act entitled and to say whatever pops into their minds in order to get what they want. I also think that it is reasonable for you to be concerned about it because it is our responsibility as parents to teach our children, and it shows that you are taking that seriously. 

 

I think that it's the quality of parenting that will make the difference, and not the size of your house. It sounds like you are really trying to do the right thing here, so as long as you keep on correcting wrong attitudes as they come up, I think she will be just fine. 

[eternalsummer]

I understand the feeling about charachter though. My dd12 is very lucky - she gets to do a lot of fun things and we spend a lot of time and oney on the kids, even though we aren't hugely well off.

 

But the things she complains about sometimes!  Mainly about expectations around helping out, where I apparently "ruin her life" and all her other friends are bete=ter off and don't have to do things.  If she really thought that way, it would be incredibly entitled - essentially she would be thinking I should be her servant taking care of all her whims and asking nothing.

 

I know she doesn't really though, because it's intermittent.  Most of the time she's very generous and helpful.

 

But people do this, even adults, everywhere.  There is no one in the US who is as poor as some of the third world's poor.  Not a single soul.  No one, barring mental illness, starves to death in the US.  We are all incredibly lucky - and yet, you still hear people complain about taxes, or healthcare, or healthcare costs - costs!  when you are almost guaranteed lifesaving assistance, regardless of ability to pay! - or a million other things.

 

We as a society assume that others are our servants  - we live our lives of luxury and fullness while factory farmed animals suffer their whole lives in horrible conditions, or factory workers in the third world do hard, repetitive work in unsafe conditions for a standard of living none of us would accept.  It's just that that kind of entitledness is socially acceptable.

[Guest]

If it was a boy and a model train layout, what would you do?

Same thing. We'd require it stay in the designated space and if it ventured outside it would need to be disassembled st cleanup time.

[TammyS]

This sounds like the normal self-centeredness of a preteen to me. She'll outgrow it eventually. In the mean time, patience! It's not some permanent inherent character flaw.

 

:iagree:  I would also add, to try really hard not to take it personally.  She's not doing it to make you crazy and it's not an indication of a parenting fail.  It's just a phase.  If you give in and give her what she wants, THAT will be a parenting fail (probably). 

 

In the meantime, stop explaining to her.  Stop rationalizing with her.  Explanations are for those who sincerely want to know.  She doesn't want to know.  She wants to argue.  There is no benefit, to you or her, in giving her the argument that she desires.  In fact, you could go further and agree with her.  When she says that she has less than others, don't try to talk her out of her beliefs.  Just shrug your shoulders and agree that it's disappointing to not get what you want, especially when other people around you are getting it. Then move on (physically, if possible) to something else.

 

If you really want to work on entitlement, I suggest upping her chore load (I'm a big believer in a hefty chore load for kids in general).  Nothing like a bigger chore load to make you appreciate your play time more.

 

Also, this: it really is ok to tell her to stop complaining.  Don't try to convince her you are right, but you have a right to peace and quiet in your home.  If she wants to be miserable, she needs to do that in the silence of her own head.  She is not entitled to spew her self-inflicted misery on others. 

[El...]

If you don't intend to give her everything she wants, you need to be prepared for her to continue to want it -- and to share her thoughts, feelings, and desires with you. (Immature people do that. You can talk through get communication style as needed.)

 

What you seem to think is that she should actually not want everything that she wants. Which, you might notice, is logically impossible. So it's pretty unattainable, as far as parenting goals go.

 

As a human being, she's not going to stop wanting more and better than her current status -- instead she is going to hit limits of what is/isn't possible, and learn to deal with the feelings that pop up as result. That's not "entitlement" (in my house we call it "wantfulness") and we all do it. We can all imagine what would be nicer, and feel a mild, moderate, or strong desire for that thing/circumstance/whatever that we imagine. We don't have deep flaws of character and personality. Neither does she. She believes her current life/status is "normal" becsuse it is "normal" -- it's been that way for her whole life. (She no more imagines your childhood status than you spend your childhood imaging your father walking barefoot 10 miles to school, uphill both ways.)

 

She's just telling you a feeling she is having. All she needs is a bit of sympathy and a solid distraction. It's irritating because it's childish and repetitive -- but that's parenting. She's not grown up enough to do it another way yet.

 

(Parents easily grasp 'I do it as the parent because my child is too young' when a child is too young to hold a spoon or read a book -- but there are dozens of social, emotional, cognitive and relational things they won't be able to do unguided for years after the spoon-feeding years. That's where your role *is* -- for years.)

 

You don't need to argue with her until she agrees that you are being reasonable -- just be reasonable, and be confident, and be kind about it. It's going to happen about 400 more times per child... You might as well be efficient!

Ooooh, that makes me think!  Thank you.

 

Right now, Ds5 wants "one more" lego set, ALL the time.  It doesn't help that every lego instruction manual ends with images of the next set in the series, and he has his dad's collecting impulse.  Sigh.

[TammyS]

gosh, that sounds to me like *you* are entitled - because you are driving you get to decide the music all the time, period?

 

Entitlement is not a bad thing, as long as it is appropriate.  It is her car, so she actually IS entitled to decide the music all of the time, period.

 

[Learning fun]

Ask yourself, would you like to have a playroom for your family? If you would, add it. For me, it wouldn't even be a question I'd add it. It's not a need, but gosh it's nice to have a room dedicated to toys so that I can just close the door and the rest of the house stays nice. Do you and your husband see yourselves being in your new house for the long term? Would you like a playroom for your grandchildren? I don't understand leaving it out because of a child's passing phase.

 

Edited because of grammar.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Learning fun

[eternalsummer]

Entitlement is not a bad thing, as long as it is appropriate.  It is her car, so she actually IS entitled to decide the music all of the time, period.

 

 

I agree that she has the *power*, and thus the physical entitlement.  I do not agree that she has the *moral* entitlement - that because she has the power means that she has the right.  I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong of her to control the music in the car, any more than it's wrong to make a baby sleep in his own room or make your kids clean their plate or a million other parenting decisions I disagree with; on the other hand, I think that considering what you perceive a moral fault in someone without power (entitlement to something you don't have) but an acceptable quality in someone with power (entitlement to something you do have) is kind of dumb.

[MotherGoose]

:iagree: I would also add, to try really hard not to take it personally. She's not doing it to make you crazy and it's not an indication of a parenting fail. It's just a phase. If you give in and give her what she wants, THAT will be a parenting fail (probably).

 

In the meantime, stop explaining to her. Stop rationalizing with her. Explanations are for those who sincerely want to know. She doesn't want to know. She wants to argue. There is no benefit, to you or her, in giving her the argument that she desires. In fact, you could go further and agree with her. When she says that she has less than others, don't try to talk her out of her beliefs. Just shrug your shoulders and agree that it's disappointing to not get what you want, especially when other people around you are getting it. Then move on (physically, if possible) to something else.

 

If you really want to work on entitlement, I suggest upping her chore load (I'm a big believer in a hefty chore load for kids in general). Nothing like a bigger chore load to make you appreciate your play time more.

 

Also, this: it really is ok to tell her to stop complaining. Don't try to convince her you are right, but you have a right to peace and quiet in your home. If she wants to be miserable, she needs to do that in the silence of her own head. She is not entitled to spew her self-inflicted misery on others.

This is what I think I should do, in general. Some relatives are of the "if I'm having a bad day, I'm entitled to make everyone around me miserable too instead of getting a grip on myself" mentality, and I definitely want to stop any tendencies towards that in its tracks!

[MotherGoose]

Ask yourself, would you like to have a playroom for your family? If you would, add it. For me, it wouldn't even be a question I'd add it. It's not a need but gosh it's nice to have a room dedicated to toys, so that I can just close the door and the rest of the house stays nice. Do you and your husband see yourselves being in your new house for the long term? Would you like a playroom for your grandchildren? I Dont understand leaving it out because of a child's passing phase.

We do have one now, but it's combined with the schoolroom. Do people have playrooms where it appears a bomb has erupted and they just close the door and walk away? I don't know if I could do that. It does sound appealing though.

[Catwoman]

We do have one now, but it's combined with the schoolroom. Do people have playrooms where it appears a bomb has erupted and they just close the door and walk away? I don't know if I could do that. It does sound appealing though.

That may be the biggest perk of having a dedicated playroom. :)

[bolt.]

This is what I think I should do, in general. Some relatives are of the "if I'm having a bad day, I'm entitled to make everyone around me miserable too instead of getting a grip on myself" mentality, and I definitely want to stop any tendencies towards that in its tracks!

I don't really understand. You seem to saying that ( a ) because you have adults in your life that behave childishly, therefore ( b ) it is very important to you that your child behave a mature "grip on herself" fashion, and ( c ) that she should just make herself able to do that immediately, with no time for a learning process, because ( d ) she is in the unlucky family position of being a preteen child whose mother has badly behaved relatives who irritate her. Therefore the expectation falls to the child to not show immature behavior, even though ( e ) she does not yet have a fully developed functional brain with which to attain the expectation, and even though ( f ) normal developmental milestones indicate that it takes years for an average preteen to develop a strong "grip on herself" capacity.

 

I'm trying to tell you that you literally can't "nip" immaturity "in the bud" -- the nature of immature behaviour is that it happens because certain milestones are not yet achieved, and are not expected for years. The solution for immaturity is guided and supported maturation past the inability into a great skill set. You can do that. It goes away when skills are increased. It can not be treated as a misbehaviour to be eliminated.

 

Think of it like other milestones: you don't look at a child who is not yet walking and say, "I just nip this lazy behavior in the bud. She must stop being unable to walk as soon as possible!" Of course, you do want a child to walk in good time, but you understand that (1) it's really likely to happen that she will walk, and (2) that she will learn it gradually with love and encouragement, but not without a long period of stumbling and toddling.

 

A preteen child who is not yet emotionally self regulating is very similar: (1) It is really likely that she will gain normal amounts of self-regulation over time; (2) she will learn it gradually, with love and encouragement, through a period of trial and error (errors meaning exhibiting lack of emotional control from time to time, more often than an adult would).

 

She may have irritating relatives, but that doesn't mean she is likely to learn self-regulation any faster than other kids her age. It sure would be nice; but it's not likely. 11 is a nerologically and emotionally intense year. A whole year. (And it's harder for her than for you.)

[Learning fun]

We do have one now, but it's combined with the schoolroom. Do people have playrooms where it appears a bomb has erupted and they just close the door and walk away? I don't know if I could do that. It does sound appealing though.

 

 

Ha ha, that's how we do it. Dd does tidy it once a day and every so often I give it an overhaul, but yes at any given moment it looks as if a bomb has gone off :).

[MotherGoose]

I don't really understand. You seem to saying that ( a ) because you have adults in your life that behave childishly, therefore ( b ) it is very important to you that your child behave a mature "grip on herself" fashion, and ( c ) that she should just make herself able to do that immediately, with no time for a learning process, because ( d ) she is in the unlucky family position of being a preteen child whose mother has badly behaved relatives who irritate her. Therefore the expectation falls to the child to not show immature behavior, even though ( e ) she does not yet have a fully developed functional brain with which to attain the expectation, and even though ( f ) normal developmental milestones indicate that it takes years for an average preteen to develop a strong "grip on herself" capacity.

 

I'm trying to tell you that you literally can't "nip" immaturity "in the bud" -- the nature of immature behaviour is that it happens because certain milestones are not yet achieved, and are not expected for years. The solution for immaturity is guided and supported maturation past the inability into a great skill set. You can do that. It goes away when skills are increased. It can not be treated as a misbehaviour to be eliminated.

 

Think of it like other milestones: you don't look at a child who is not yet walking and say, "I just nip this lazy behavior in the bud. She must stop being unable to walk as soon as possible!" Of course, you do want a child to walk in good time, but you understand that (1) it's really likely to happen that she will walk, and (2) that she will learn it gradually with love and encouragement, but not without a long period of stumbling and toddling.

 

A preteen child who is not yet emotionally self regulating is very similar: (1) It is really likely that she will gain normal amounts of self-regulation over time; (2) she will learn it gradually, with love and encouragement, through a period of trial and error (errors meaning exhibiting lack of emotional control from time to time, more often than an adult would).

 

She may have irritating relatives, but that doesn't mean she is likely to learn self-regulation any faster than other kids her age. It sure would be nice; but it's not likely. 11 is a nerologically and emotionally intense year. A whole year. (And it's harder for her than for you.)

Oh I know it's a process. I'm just wanting to make sure she emerges from this all with the notion that you don't make someone else miserable just because you are. This sort of behavior is quite normalized by adults in some of her relatives. Re: walking: there is the expectation that the child will eventually walk; I have the expectation that she will eventually not take out her moods on others. These relatives continue to believe taking out ones mood on others is perfectly acceptable.

[Bluegoat]

But people do this, even adults, everywhere.  There is no one in the US who is as poor as some of the third world's poor.  Not a single soul.  No one, barring mental illness, starves to death in the US.  We are all incredibly lucky - and yet, you still hear people complain about taxes, or healthcare, or healthcare costs - costs!  when you are almost guaranteed lifesaving assistance, regardless of ability to pay! - or a million other things.

 

We as a society assume that others are our servants  - we live our lives of luxury and fullness while factory farmed animals suffer their whole lives in horrible conditions, or factory workers in the third world do hard, repetitive work in unsafe conditions for a standard of living none of us would accept.  It's just that that kind of entitledness is socially acceptable.

 

Yes, people in the west often act in an entitled way.  I wouldn't suggest this for a child, but for adults I think a good sharp smack is an appropriate solution.

[TammyS]

I agree that she has the *power*, and thus the physical entitlement.  I do not agree that she has the *moral* entitlement - that because she has the power means that she has the right.  I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong of her to control the music in the car, any more than it's wrong to make a baby sleep in his own room or make your kids clean their plate or a million other parenting decisions I disagree with; on the other hand, I think that considering what you perceive a moral fault in someone without power (entitlement to something you don't have) but an acceptable quality in someone with power (entitlement to something you do have) is kind of dumb.

 

So you think that a person does not have a moral entitlement to the control of their own belongings?

 

If that is correct, then I would like your home address and list of all of your valuables.

[maize]

Oh I know it's a process. I'm just wanting to make sure she emerges from this all with the notion that you don't make someone else miserable just because you are. This sort of behavior is quite normalized by adults in some of her relatives. Re: walking: there is the expectation that the child will eventually walk; I have the expectation that she will eventually not take out her moods on others. These relatives continue to believe taking out ones mood on others is perfectly acceptable.

As for not acting out her moods in inapproriate and non-productive ways, you might take a look at DBT resources such as this:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LVTKSEO/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487943204&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=dbt+workbook+kids

 

While the methods of DBT were originally developed to help people with certain mental illnesses cope with strong and fluctuating emotions, I find that the skills taught are applicable to and helpful for most people. We all have emotions, and learning to recognize them, recognize our responses to them, and learning to take intentional steps to move our responses and interactions in a constructive rather than destructive direction are important life skills. The general emphasis on meeting the basic needs of our bodies and brains (sleep, exercise, nutrition, meditation) is also something that can have life long benefits.

 

(I haven't yet seen the workbook I linked to as it is currently on pre-order; it came up when I searched for "DBT workbook for kids"; I have found adult DBT workbooks helpful and recently ordered one for teens. I'll likely put in a pre-order for this one as well).

Edited February 24, 2017 by maize

[maize]

So you think that a person does not have a moral entitlement to the control of their own belongings?

 

If that is correct, then I would like your home address and list of all of your valuables.

I personally see things such as cars and houses and most other household items as family belongings, with all family members being entitled to a degree of access and control. Yes, parents have a degree of responsibility in management and decision making beyond that of the children (all the weight of being an adult) but I cannot imagine having an attitude of "this is mine so I get to control it" regarding resources that are needed and used by the whole family. That feels to me like setting the whole relationship up on potentially self-centered and antagonistic grounds.

 

Every member of my family has a few individual posessions that we expect to maintain control over (i.e. we would ask for permission before borrowing or using). The vast majority of what we own though is for the use and benefit of the entire family, and the only restrictions are ones that relate to safety and courtesy so we can all live comfortably together.

 

(As a non-family member, you of course would have no natural right to the use of my family's property. You do have a right to the use of communal property shared by a larger community such as our public roads and parks.)

Edited February 24, 2017 by maize

[Catwoman]

So you think that a person does not have a moral entitlement to the control of their own belongings?

 

If that is correct, then I would like your home address and list of all of your valuables.

I was thinking she meant something more along the lines of, "it's nice to share."

 

I may be "entitled" to control the music in my car because I own it, but if my family is riding in the car with me, I certainly don't insist on playing my music all the time because that wouldn't be fair to my dh or my ds.

[Carol in Cal.]

As for not acting out her moods in inapproriate and non-productive ways, you might take a look at DBT resources such as this:

 

How do DBT and CBT compare?  

[azucena]

Parents easily grasp 'I do it as the parent because my child is too young' when a child is too young to hold a spoon or read a book -- but there are dozens of social, emotional, cognitive and relational things they won't be able to do unguided for years after the spoon-feeding years. That's where your role *is* -- for years.

 

 

This is one of the most helpful short paragraphs I have ever read about parenting.  Thank you.

[kitten18]

We do have one now, but it's combined with the schoolroom. Do people have playrooms where it appears a bomb has erupted and they just close the door and walk away? I don't know if I could do that. It does sound appealing though.

I would if I had a basement or dedicated playroom.

 

My sister has the cleanest house of anyone I have ever known and when my nieces were little she would let them make huge messes in the basement playroom. They would play like that for a couple weeks then have a big clean-up session.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited March 2, 2017 by --Kathy--

[TammyS]

I was thinking she meant something more along the lines of, "it's nice to share."

 

I may be "entitled" to control the music in my car because I own it, but if my family is riding in the car with me, I certainly don't insist on playing my music all the time because that wouldn't be fair to my dh or my ds.

 

Well, sure it's nice to share.  But one is not entitled to decide that someone else is sharing their belongings.  And I actually think it's perfectly fair to insist on control of the music in your own car.  What isn't fair is for someone who is not the owner to insist that they have a right to tell someone what they should listen to in their own car.  Any more than I would go to someone's home and insist that they change the music there.

 

Funnily, even if I was listening to no music I would have required the child to put the headphones away.  Wearing headphones in other people's company is just rude.

[TammyS]

I personally see things such as cars and houses and most other household items as family belongings,

 

I guess I just have a different belief.  I believe there is no such thing as a "family belonging".  There are things, some of which I give my children a certain amount of access to.  There are things which my children either bought themselves, or had given to them, which are theirs and (for the most part) they get to control access to.

[eternalsummer]

Yes, I see the house, and food, and bedding, and car, and etc. as family property, largely, although of course the adults have more responsibility (and thus more power) in regulating the use of that property.

 

I guess I could say, well, I paid for it with money someone gave me so I control it entirely, but that logic would not stead me well when I am not working for pay (when I'm staying at home while DH works).  All family members contribute, more as they get older, to the functioning of the family, and all members have a say, more as they get older, in how family resources are allocated, or what music plays in the car or house.

 

It's more an instinct than logic, though.

[eternalsummer]

Partly it might be that I was raised that way; I have a key to my parents' house and always have had.  I am welcome to come live there any time.  If I spend the night at mom's house and need a t-shirt, I just say mom, I'm taking one of your shirts (in case she has a favorite one she wants me not to take).  My parents, especially my mom, were/are very generous with us - not great money managers, but there was little sense of us and them with regards to property.

[SKL]

I am kind enough to ask my kids their opinion about what to listen to in the car, very often.  Except when I don't want to.

 

They are not entitled to decide or even to vote (unless I invite them to).  The day they start acting entitled is the day I start listening to moldy oldies without consulting them at all.  :P

 

Here's my take.  Children SHOULD feel entitled to have their needs met.  They are and should feel entitled to food, inhabitable shelter, reasonable clothes, sleep, a decent education, and an age-appropriate amount of free time.  They should feel entitled to come to their parents with their concerns (respectfully) and be spoken to with kindness (at least most of the time).  They should feel entitled the freedom necessary to grow up.  They can hold respectful discussions with their parents when there is disagreement over the bounds of these entitlements.

 

Parents are on the giving end such a high % of the time, that if they want to reserve some things exclusively for themselves, more power to them.  My mom used to have certain goodies that were only for her to eat.  Fine.  I tell my kids times when they aren't allowed to bother me unless it's an emergency.  I make lots of decisions without consulting them.  I look out for my own comfort once in a while.  Yes, I do.  They need to learn that everyone other than them has rights too.  Even Mom.

 

I'm not raising my kids to think that when they become women, they need to subjugate all their wants and needs to the other people in their lives.

[MotherGoose]

Well, yeah, it did kind of look like that ... to an adult. But to my kids, it was a totally different story. They would spend days making all kinds of complicated creations with almost every toy we owned (a lot when they were young), and get up excited to pick up right where they'd left off the day before. It was hard for ME to walk through the room without stepping on toys; but not for our dc. So I just let them take as long as they wanted to complete whatever project they were working on, which means I mostly stayed out of their toy room unless it was absolutely necessary for me to go in there.

 

The way I often knew when they were done was that they would begin the 'demolition process'. This was a loud process where dc would 'explode' their creations in various ways. At that point, I would begin talking to them about all of us gathering to "clean up the toy room". When that time came, I gathered the kids, especially the oldest ones, and sat with them as we all sorted the toys and put them away.

 

Then, probably the next day, dc would begin the whole process over again. :)

 

Oh, and any tape that was put on the floor to divide "property" was put there by my kids, not me. It was their idea and they had to be responsible for it. Our 2 ds's shared a room and one day they decided to tape the floor of their room to keep each other off their individual "property". They got together and made all the decisions and taped it and made the rules to go with it. I stayed WAY out of it.

 

IOW, if you're planning to tape off things for whatever reason, I'd ask the child to do it, possibly with minimal help from you if it involves a family area vs her bedroom or toy room. And let her regulate the thing, too.

 

ymmv, as usual.

Perhaps just saying this room can be a disaster but all other rooms must be neat might be a freeing idea.... :)

[Bluegoat]

I really feel the driver has the power with car music.