Perimenopause S/O. Do you feel bitter?

[marbel]

Agreed!! It is a rare, modern man that gives women's pleasure a second thought.

 

Hmm... I have to ask:  what is the basis of your assertion?   

[Guest]

Hmm... I have to ask: what is the basis of your assertion?

Please note the word modern. Historically, female pleasure wasn't high on the priority list.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Moxie

[Catwoman]

Please note the word modern. Historically, female pleasure wasn't high on the priority list.

I don't get it. :confused:

 

You said it was a "rare, modern man who gives women's pleasure a second thought."

 

That sounded to me like you think it's rare for modern men to care about women's pleasure. I'm not sure what men historically may or may not have believed has anything to do with that.

 

Sorry to be so clueless, but I think I may be misunderstanding you.

[marbel]

Please note the word modern. Historically, female pleasure wasn't high on the priority list.

 

 

OK, but... you also said "rare."  

 

Agreed!! It is a rare, modern man that gives women's pleasure a second thought.

 

Modern men aren't exactly rare, so I took it to mean that even among modern men, it's rare to find one who gives a woman's pleasure a second thought.  I think some others read it the same way.  And I wondered... how you could make such a bold statement.   

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am really not convinced that gender has anything to do with it. 

For example, one of the most common complaints by women is lack of libido. If there were a solution, I am fairly sure men would be overjoyed. The fact that there is no fix seems rather to indicate that it is a complicated problem, not that male scientists don't care - there would be huge market and men would definitely benefit.

 

I do think there is an element of gender bias, but interestingly some of it might be coming from women. I say that because not long ago I read about a drug that is aimed at treating this problem.  There were a lot of women who were very outraged at the idea.  Their stance was basically that this issue with women is normal and expecting them to take drugs to fix it is treating them unfairly and it's all about pleasing men.  I think they had a point, but then again I think that many women would like such a treatment/drug and not just because they felt pressured to try it. 

 

I'll have to look for the name of the drug.  It didn't sound all that great to me so I didn't pursue it, but it is an actual drug that is available. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Here it is:

 

http://www.webmd.com/women/news/20150818/fda-approves-addyi-drug-boost-womens-sex-drive#1

[SparklyUnicorn]

There's no doubt that men get better care on average than women do (I've also heard of one study that showed that attractive people get better medical care than less attractive people, too!) and yes I am somewhat resentful of that fact.  

 

But what concerns me much more, and what makes me outright bitter, is the crappy state of medical care in the US generally.  We have the most expensive health care in the world, and yet in quality and effectiveness it ranks behind ALL other wealthy, industrialized nations.  That's inexcusable. 

 

What sucks the most about perimenopause for me is chronic migraines.  I get 25-35 days in a row of migraines, followed by one day, ONE DAY, of relief, followed by another 25-35 days in a row of migraines.  It took a year and a half and multiple doctors and thousands of dollars out of pocket (in addition to the thousands we pay in premiums every year) for me to get any relief.  Now, I need an adjustment in the dosage of my medication, and my neurologist refuses to do this by phone or email, he wants me to come in and pay $450 for five minutes of his time.  Okay, fine.  Next available appointment:  MAY!  So I get to suffer for three months waiting for a time that's convenient for him.  And because this is the USA and we're #1, I have no option to choose another doctor, and it would probably be the same story even if I did.  

 

That makes me bitter.  That combination of unreasonable expense plus crappy care, that makes me very bitter.

 

I do think the quality is lousy.  I almost always walk out of the office feeling like going there was pointless.  I won't bore people with my stories, but yep.  I have done a better job figuring stuff out myself.

[Joyofsixreboot]

No, but I don't feel bad. I believe my friends when they tell me they do. I wish medicine and its practioners were better. I try to remember how far we have come. I'm sure how people feel about that is partly temperament. Be who you are.

Edited February 21, 2017 by joyofsix

[marbel]

I am really not convinced that gender has anything to do with it. 

For example, one of the most common complaints by women is lack of libido. If there were a solution, I am fairly sure men would be overjoyed. The fact that there is no fix seems rather to indicate that it is a complicated problem, not that male scientists don't care - there would be huge market and men would definitely benefit.

 

I agree.  From time to time, I hear/read women complaining that there is no "female Viagra" and the blame is placed on evil male scientists who don't want women to enjoy sex.  But then I've also heard, as a response, that female sexual function is much more complex than male and so finding a solution that helps a large number of women is much more difficult.  Then there are side effects of medications, as Sparkly's link upthread showed.   Of course that argument is probably made by the same evil male scientists.

 

Seriously, in my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, and reading on the subject, I am convinced that a man's enjoyment is greatly enhanced by his partner's pleasure.   There is no reason for men to want to suppress medications to "cure" a low sex drive. 

 

Not saying all men care, of course.  But in my experience and observation those who don't are usually pretty easy to figure out, just by the way they treat women in general.  

Edited February 21, 2017 by marbel

[SparklyUnicorn]

I agree.  From time to time, I hear/read women complaining that there is no "female Viagra" and the blame is placed on evil male scientists who don't want women to enjoy sex.  But then I've also heard, as a response, that female sexual function is much more complex than male and so finding a solution that helps a large number of women is much more difficult.  Then there are side effects of medications, as Sparkly's link upthread showed.   Of course that argument is probably made by the same evil male scientists.

 

Seriously, in my (admittedly somewhat limited) experience, and reading on the subject, I am convinced that a man's enjoyment is greatly enhanced by his partner's pleasure.   There is no reason for men to want to suppress medications to "cure" a low sex drive. 

 

Not saying all men care, of course.  But in my experience and observation they are usually pretty easy to figure out, just by the way they treat women in general.  

 

Well yeah getting real, what pharmaceutical company wouldn't want to find such a drug.  They stand to make a lot of money and I'd say they are much more driven by money than issues of gender.

[FaithManor]

Well yeah getting real, what pharmaceutical company wouldn't want to find such a drug. They stand to make a lot of money and I'd say they are much more driven by money than issues of gender.

Yes. I do wonder how many women would actually buy it? Low libido has a lot of treatments for the underlying conditions such as thyroid, mini HRT, etc. The women left who are low libido just naturally in terms of personality or some other reasons that aren't readily mitigated like stress, insomnia that does not respond to treatment, etc...would they want to buy such meds? I kind of think not. My irl friend who simply does not like sex no matter how wonderful her hubby tries to be - and believe me the man has made some serious efforts in the matter, he is not a Fred Flintstone about this - has no desire to fix it. She does not want to change anything despite the fact that her husband suffers due to the lack of intimacy, the frequency being only twice a year (his birthday and their anniversary). She would NOT buy medication.

 

Could be a mental thing. She was raised fundie and taught "good girls ensure sex but never enjoy it".

 

So I have to wonder if part of the reason there is so little out there for this particular issue is that pharma research indicates they likely would not have a market for it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes. I do wonder how many women would actually buy it? Low libido has a lot of treatments for the underlying conditions such as thyroid, mini HRT, etc. The women left who are low libido just naturally in terms of personality or some other reasons that aren't readily mitigated like stress, insomnia that does not respond to treatment, etc...would they want to buy such meds? I kind of think not. My irl friend who simply does not like sex no matter how wonderful her hubby tries to be - and believe me the man has made some serious efforts in the matter, he is not a Fred Flintstone about this - has no desire to fix it. She does not want to change anything despite the fact that her husband suffers due to the lack of intimacy, the frequency being only twice a year (his birthday and their anniversary). She would NOT buy medication.

 

Could be a mental thing. She was raised fundie and taught "good girls ensure sex but never enjoy it".

 

So I have to wonder if part of the reason there is so little out there for this particular issue is that pharma research indicates they likely would not have a market for it.

 

I don't agree there are a lot of treatments for underlying conditions.  Maybe because I don't have any of the underlying conditions and yet have ZERO sex drive.  I mean if there is a negative sex drive...I have that. 

 

Would I buy something like that?  I don't know.  It would have to have zero undesirable side effects.  Ideally it would be something I could take as wanted like Viagra and not some ongoing daily thing.  I wouldn't want that. 

 

I was not raised fundie either.  But maybe this is part of a complex issue.  It's not just a physical thing, but possibly behavioral/mental type factors exist that no drug could really fix.  Men don't seem to feel in general they aren't supposed to enjoy sex.  It's almost talked about like it's fundamental to being a man.  But women?  Not so much. 

[Greta]

I do think the quality is lousy.  I almost always walk out of the office feeling like going there was pointless.  I won't bore people with my stories, but yep.  I have done a better job figuring stuff out myself.

 

Me too!  I chose the perimenopause example because, of course, it was the topic of the thread.  But it is actually not even close to being the worst example of bad health care that I've experienced.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Me too!  I chose the perimenopause example because, of course, it was the topic of the thread.  But it is actually not even close to being the worst example of bad health care that I've experienced.  

 

yeah...last week I went to see about my numb pinky finger.  So doc told me I should have a nerve study done.  I've had one done in the past and they are horrid so I said I'd like to not do that to start.  So he had his assistant hand me a sheet with exercises I could try.  She just kinda shoved it at me and left.  That was that.  So I went home and looked at the sheet.  It as blurry, I could not figure out what half the exercises were, and the part that lists how many to do and how long to hold various stretches was left blank.  Ok.  So I had to go on-line and figure this all out.  They couldn't have taken 5 minutes to show me how to do them?  Why did I go there?  I told him I bought a brace..ok that's the right thing.  He said if I don't turn a corner with the bracing and exercises in one month I should pursue the nerve study.  Nerve study equals we want to figure out where to operate.  Fine and dandy.  I'm not dead against surgery if needed, but every single thing I've read on-line says 6-12 weeks of bracing and exercises before resorting to pursuing surgery.  Not 4 weeks.  Four weeks felt to me like "ok we'll humor you" and not an actual good amount of time to see if it will work.  Doesn't matter.  I'm not calling in 4 weeks.  I'll give it longer.  The recovery time on this surgery is going to make my life very hellish so I can't just not try something else.  Ya know? 

 

It all felt so sloppy and pointless.

[Greta]

yeah...last week I went to see about my numb pinky finger.  So doc told me I should have a nerve study done.  I've had one done in the past and they are horrid so I said I'd like to not do that to start.  So he had his assistant hand me a sheet with exercises I could try.  She just kinda shoved it at me and left.  That was that.  So I went home and looked at the sheet.  It as blurry, I could not figure out what half the exercises were, and the part that lists how many to do and how long to hold various stretches was left blank.  Ok.  So I had to go on-line and figure this all out.  They couldn't have taken 5 minutes to show me how to do them?  Why did I go there?  I told him I bought a brace..ok that's the right thing.  He said if I don't turn a corner with the bracing and exercises in one month I should pursue the nerve study.  Nerve study equals we want to figure out where to operate.  Fine and dandy.  I'm not dead against surgery if needed, but every single thing I've read on-line says 6-12 weeks of bracing and exercises before resorting to pursuing surgery.  Not 4 weeks.  Four weeks felt to me like "ok we'll humor you" and not an actual good amount of time to see if it will work.  Doesn't matter.  I'm not calling in 4 weeks.  I'll give it longer.  The recovery time on this surgery is going to make my life very hellish so I can't just not try something else.  Ya know? 

 

It all felt so sloppy and pointless.

 

Sloppy and pointless, yes that's a good description.  I'm sorry you have to deal with that!  Four weeks definitely doesn't seem like enough time for much healing to occur.  

[SKL]

The recent comments are why my parents won't go to the doctor alone any more.  Two people (regardless of gender) are more likely to get the attention we all have a right to expect.

 

I have said this before - I just quit going to MDs because I was so sick of their methods.  Every time we have a more-than-minor illness or accident, I'm debating whether it's worth the aggravation of bothering with an MD visit or whether that would just make things worse overall.  I haven't seen my dad or brothers getting better treatment either.

Edited February 21, 2017 by SKL

[Greta]

The recent comments are why my parents won't go to the doctor alone any more.  Two people (regardless of gender) are more likely to get the attention we all have a right to expect.

 

I have said this before - I just quit going to MDs because I was so sick of their methods.  Every time we have a more-than-minor illness or accident, I'm debating whether it's worth the aggravation of bothering with an MD visit or whether that would just make things worse overall.  I haven't seen my dad or brothers getting better treatment either.

 

Wow, I didn't realize this could make that much of a difference.  That's good to know - worth a shot anyway!

 

I said above that men get better care, because I've read studies to that effect.  But I certainly agree with you that this is absolutely NO guarantee that men will get good care either.  My husband has gotten poor quality care on several occasions, and my grandfather died because his doctor didn't take his concern seriously (there may have been some ageism going on in that case, but I'm only guessing).

[SparklyUnicorn]

The recent comments are why my parents won't go to the doctor alone any more.  Two people (regardless of gender) are more likely to get the attention we all have a right to expect.

 

I have said this before - I just quit going to MDs because I was so sick of their methods.  Every time we have a more-than-minor illness or accident, I'm debating whether it's worth the aggravation of bothering with an MD visit or whether that would just make things worse overall.  I haven't seen my dad or brothers getting better treatment either.

 

I didn't go for a long time and I started feeling bad about not going...like am I being careless towards my family.  But now I'm starting, again, to wonder what the point is.  I'm getting nowhere with it. 

[momacacia]

I'm actually so grateful to live in a time and a place where I have access to so many resources to find solutions for wellness. There is a lot of stuff out there to support hormonal issues...on all ends of the spectrum; but, not necessarily in the allopathic world. It's nutritional, etc., supoorting the body to do what it was desgines to do before we started mucking it up with processed foods, chemicals in the environment, on and on.

 

If I'm bitter about anything it's that it's so hard to eat well and take care of ourselves in our culture (e.g., I'd love to see more "fast/healthy" food places), and that the medical establishment is so focused on drugs to fix things instead of educating and empowering people to care for themselves (when possible).

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm actually so grateful to live in a time and a place where I have access to so many resources to find solutions for wellness. There is a lot of stuff out there to support hormonal issues...on all ends of the spectrum; but, not necessarily in the allopathic world. It's nutritional, etc., supoorting the body to do what it was desgines to do before we started mucking it up with processed foods, chemicals in the environment, on and on.

 

If I'm bitter about anything it's that it's so hard to eat well and take care of ourselves in our culture (e.g., I'd love to see more "fast/healthy" food places), and that the medical establishment is so focused on drugs to fix things instead of educating and empowering people to care for themselves (when possible).

 

I follow the food recommendations.  It does nothing for me in that department.  Although who knows.  Maybe it does.  Maybe things would be far worse without it. There is that. 

 

I am frustrated by the lack of options.  People tell me to go to a doctor to ask about options.  They don't give me any options other than taking pills of questionable safety. 

[SKL]

I have heard some non-medical options work well.  The problem is that everyone has a different suggestion.  This kind of tea, this kind of herb, this kind of exercise, this kind of diet.  Part of the problem is that we're all so different.  Part of it is that we maybe don't have enough trust in suggestions that come from sources other than MDs.  There's no comprehensive "welcome to perimenopause" handbook, or is there?

[Liz CA]

I have heard some non-medical options work well.  The problem is that everyone has a different suggestion.  This kind of tea, this kind of herb, this kind of exercise, this kind of diet.  Part of the problem is that we're all so different.  Part of it is that we maybe don't have enough trust in suggestions that come from sources other than MDs.  There's no comprehensive "welcome to perimenopause" handbook, or is there?

 

It does take a little adjusting here and there and even if you find a good balance initially, things can change over years again.

I always recommend a naturopath cause IMHO they take much more time in history and assessment. When my doc recommends a certain supplement, she always says: "See how you feel after a week or two and let me know. If this does not work, there are other options." She also relies on self report for hormonal issues. When her rx differs from what I think I need, she is willing to dial it down or up.

 

[Catwoman]

I do think the quality is lousy. I almost always walk out of the office feeling like going there was pointless. I won't bore people with my stories, but yep. I have done a better job figuring stuff out myself.

I wish you could find better doctors. :grouphug:

 

There are a lot of good ones out there, but it can be hard to find them unless someone you know gives you a recommendation. Otherwise, you're stuck picking a random name, reading a couple of online reviews which might have been written by the doctor's family members, and hoping things work out at the appointment.

[TravelingChris]

I had a number of doctors who helped me with perimenopause.  One gynecologist quickly recommended an ablation for me when I started getting very heavy periods.  I couldn't ever try HRT because of my blood clotting issues and because I was on Coumadin, it was more important for me to get the heavy bleeding stopped.  Then I moved and I had two main doctors who were helping me with additional issues of peri-menopause and even more doctors with chronic conditions that got worse at times because of the hormonal changes.  No one dismissed me or my concerns.  OTOH, my dh was dismissed with his complaints about sleepiness and mild depression for about three years until he was just about to retire from the Air Force and they finally ordered a sleep study.  It turned out that he had non-obstructive sleep apnea and that was causing the sleepiness and mild depression.  So no, I haven't seen dismissiveness with me versus my husband.  OTOH, I have seen it with my teen and young adult daughters and doctors. 

 

 

Anyway, there are medications and treatments for various issues of menopause- HRT, ablation, one of the antidepressants has been also found to help with issues of peri-menopause, other depressants help with mood issues, sleep medications or trazodone help with insomnia, medications and treatments for dryness, medications and treatments for incontinence, etc.

 

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  to all of you with unsupportive doctors.  I hope you find someone better.

[Catwoman]

I had a number of doctors who helped me with perimenopause. One gynecologist quickly recommended an ablation for me when I started getting very heavy periods. I couldn't ever try HRT because of my blood clotting issues and because I was on Coumadin, it was more important for me to get the heavy bleeding stopped. Then I moved and I had two main doctors who were helping me with additional issues of peri-menopause and even more doctors with chronic conditions that got worse at times because of the hormonal changes. No one dismissed me or my concerns. OTOH, my dh was dismissed with his complaints about sleepiness and mild depression for about three years until he was just about to retire from the Air Force and they finally ordered a sleep study. It turned out that he had non-obstructive sleep apnea and that was causing the sleepiness and mild depression. So no, I haven't seen dismissiveness with me versus my husband. OTOH, I have seen it with my teen and young adult daughters and doctors.

 

 

Anyway, there are medications and treatments for various issues of menopause- HRT, ablation, one of the antidepressants has been also found to help with issues of peri-menopause, other depressants help with mood issues, sleep medications or trazodone help with insomnia, medications and treatments for dryness, medications and treatments for incontinence, etc.

 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug: to all of you with unsupportive doctors. I hope you find someone better.

My experiences have been very much the same as yours, Chris. I feel sad that so many people here have had such negative experiences with doctors, or that they feel that men get better care than they do, because I have not seen that at all. If anything, I think some of our doctors treat me better than they do my dh -- and these are male doctors.

[HollyDay]

I've thought about this topic since I first saw the post.  It has caused me to think a great deal about my perimenopause experience.

 

Perimenopause was really rough for me.  It started when I was about 40 and lasted until my cycles stopped at 51.  My GYN said that in his 30 years of practice, he could count on 1 hand how many women had it as bad as I did.  He worked with me though and I had a better quality of life because of his expertise.  We moved 4 years before menopause and I found new doctors (men) who really helped as well.  None blew me off, none said it was all in my head.  I was given good care and treatment options.

 

What did cause me to pause or make me mad was the media and other women.  Every time I turned on the TV or opened a magazine, I saw ads for weight loss products, botox, anti aging creams, hair color, etc.  It seemed that growing old was not to be tolerated and staying young and sexy was a must.  I want to look my best certainly.  And I want to be my healthiest first and foremost.  But, I can't afford, not do I want to do many of the things other women have chosen to do to "beat the clock."  No flames please.  If someone chooses to go a different route, more power to them.  That is great for them and I'm glad for them.  I'm just saying some of it isn't for me.  I also encountered women who had a "buck up" kind of attitude.  An attitude that clearly thought women like me who had a rough time (heaving bleeding, migraines, etc) were weak or not strong enough.  I got negative comments.  One woman actually said that I was probably a sissy in pregnancy too.  Seriously??  Other women couldn't imagine I'd even consider BCPs.  Some women considered BCPs immoral, even using them for off label purposes, like perimenopause relief, and told me so.  Others couldn't imagine I'd consider anything that wasn't natural.  It reminded me of the natural childbirth vs medical intervention debates of the late 80s and 90s. 

 

So, to answer the original question.....No, I'm not bitter toward men.  I had great doctors.  My husband was a huge support to me.  I'm not bitter at all actually.  I am sad how society doesn't embrace the older woman.  And I'm constantly amazed by how vocal some can be when another women chooses a path different from theirs. 

 

 

 

 

[Greta]

Since I griped and moaned and whined above, I feel it is only fair that I come back and report some good news.  My GP said that he would be happy to give me an increased dose of the medication until I can get in to see the neurologist!  I am absolutely thrilled that I won't have to wait three more months to find out whether or not an increased dose will even help me, we can get that process started now.  This GP is still very new to me, today was only the second time I have seen him, but I really like him so far!  He spends a lot of time with me, and really seems to care.  It is such a RELIEF to have someone that you feel really cares about you!!!

[SparklyUnicorn]

I wish you could find better doctors. :grouphug:

 

There are a lot of good ones out there, but it can be hard to find them unless someone you know gives you a recommendation. Otherwise, you're stuck picking a random name, reading a couple of online reviews which might have been written by the doctor's family members, and hoping things work out at the appointment.

 

I really liked my docs in CT and I had been going to them for many many years.  Moving sucked in that department.  I've been here 10 years and damn I can't think of a single doctor I like.  

[SporkUK]

My ovaries started failing "naturally" at 28. After being scanned and all the blood tests to make sure there was nothing worse, all I got was a medical professional laughing that "at least you'll be buying fewer pads". The fact it affects all my other medical problems and places me at higher risk for several things has never been taken seriously because "it's natural".

 

It is very frustrating that, like everything else made by people, it has the same systemic power imbalances that we see elsewhere, including sexism. Seeing how little funding is going to very common, painful problems because of who gets it. Endometriosis, menorrhagia, polycystic ovary, syndrome, uterus fibroids are all receiving next to no funding for research into cause or treatment. Current recommendations in far too many places put the possibility to refuse certain treatments like partial hysterectomies unless a woman is married or already has X number of kids is beyond creepy when I think about it -- young women forced to continue without sometimes the only treatment because of the wishes of some hypothetical man not even known to her yet. Seeing the numbers on research, how many pharmaceuticals go to market without being tested on women, how too few, even trained, know how a major thing like cardiac distress often display different symptoms in women than the far more commonly represented in medical books and media men. 

 

I also find it frustrating that I've been praised for dealing with the issues perimenopause causes me without medication or any other care [except ice cream] which hasn't happened for many other conditions I have that are similarly natural but dealing with them that way leads me to be repeatedly told that I need to have it "properly dealt with" even when they don't know until I tell them. My general pain management goes on about how everyone is different and putting up things just because others are or say we should may cause further harm so keep on top of it. This is rarely applied to ~natural women's issues~ while the natural care is rarely supported for things that people see has too wrong to live with. The bias confuses me regularly, I never guess well how the systems will tell me I'm wrong this time.