Jump to content


What's with the ads?

Photo

Is classical conversations a cult..or product..or..


275 replies to this topic

What's with the ads?

#251 Gregkar

Gregkar

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:17 PM

I will preface this by saying that I'm not completely sure what year CC's average scores were from.  Since they were listed in the 2016 catalog, I'd assume they were from around 2014 or 2015.  The information I found from nheri.org is from 2014.  Given that the national scores mentioned from both sources are identical, I'd say that it's safe to assume that they are from the same year. 

I did a quick search for homeschool SAT scores.  One of the first websites I found stated:

"The SAT 2014 test scores of college-bound homeschool students were higher than the national average of all college-bound seniors that same year. Some 13,549 homeschool seniors had the following mean scores: 567 in critical reading, 521 in mathematics, and 535 in writing (College Board, 2014a). The mean SAT scores for all college-bound seniors in 2014 were 497 in critical reading, 513 in mathematics, and 487 in writing (College Board, 2014b)."
 
https://www.nheri.or...al-average.html
 
The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):
 
SAT Reading
630 vs 612 vs 497
SAT Writing
577 vs 587 vs 487
SAT Math
569 vs 620 vs 513
More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:

SAT Reading
630 vs 567
SAT Writing
577 vs 535
SAT Math
569 vs 521
According to this, the average CC homeschooler scored higher than the average homeschooler on every section.


Without the context of the Z-Scores, percentiles, study design, etc. this doesn't tell us as much as it would appear. Yes, the raw scores may be higher, but if they are still less than 1 SD above the mean, it tells us NOTHING (for certain).

#252 Gregkar

Gregkar

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:35 PM

Re: medical school in the Caribbean

The students who go to medical school in the Caribbean do so because they didn't get in anywhere in the US. The quality of the education is lower, and everyone knows it. This causes them to have a more difficult time passing required board exams. This also affects where they will be accepted into residency, which determines what kind of doctor they can be. Their choices of residencies will be severely limited because they attended medical school in the Caribbean.


EXACTLY!

#253 Gregkar

Gregkar

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:38 PM

Agree. I don't know the name of the study, but Andrew Pudewa has discussed many times a study that showed once you accounted for two parent households (with a parent involved with the child's education) it erased the "homeschool" advantage when it came to test scores. It makes sense that parental involvement is the biggest factor if test scores are the only end result being measured for sure.


Comparing Apples to Apples....

GOOD POINT on the rival hypothesis.

#254 YodaGirl

YodaGirl

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:46 PM

But again, you can't make a direct connection with these stats. There's big difference between the average homeschool family and the CC family. CC is expensive, so families without disposable funds are less likely to be in CC. CC requires parents to attend with the kids, so only parents who are willing and able to be heavily involved are going to CC. Even in HS circles, not everyone is a concerned involved parent, and some are working hard and doing their best, so even if they wanted to go to CC, they can't because of WORK and money making obligations. It's not necessarily a reflection of their levels of care as of their social status. Although, I know some HS families educate in a way that I consider almost neglectful or definitely neglectful.

 

The CC family is privileged. Yes, I know some make great sacrifices to be involved and pay for it, but for many families the time and cost burdens are so high that no sacrifices could make it possible. You need to compare privileged families against privileged families, and privileged families or samples that have a disproportionately high percent of privileged families will always score better than less privileged families or more balanced samples. 

 

Most families in our community are far from privileged.  Sure, a handful are, but that's certainly not the norm.

 

I get the distinct feeling that whatever I post will be questioned unless those results indicate that CC students perform at or below average, but I'll play, anyway.   ;)

Previously, we've been looking at 2014 SAT results.  I had a difficult time finding results from 2014 that were separated by income, but I did find an article analyzing the 2013 test results.  Now, I know that there can be some issues with comparing separate years. However, this article from the Washington Post indicates that the results between 2013 & 2014 were stagnant.
 

2013 Scores according to this article are 


Reading: 496
Writing:  488
Math:  514


Those scores are all within 1 point of their 2014 scores.
 

So, the statistics I posted earlier:

The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):

SAT Reading
630 vs 612 vs 497
SAT Writing
577 vs 587 vs 487
SAT Math
569 vs 620 vs 513


More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:
SAT Reading
630 vs 567

SAT Writing
577 vs 535

SAT Math
569 vs 521

 

MSNBC published this article in March 2014 comparing family incomes and SAT scores.  The Washington Post also posted a similar article

 

Let's continue under the assumption that CC families are privileged and look at SAT scores of students with a household income of approximately $180,000 - 200,000.  It's important to note that neither article gives an exact score.  We'll have to estimate the scores based on the graph.  

MSNBC shows that students in families with a combined income of $180,000-200,000 scored (approximately):
Reading:  545
Writing:  540
Math: 565

Exact CC Scores vs. Approximate $180,000-200,000 income:
Reading:
630 vs 545
Writing:
577 vs 540
Math:
569 vs 565

The average student enrolled in CC out-performed the average student with a combined household income of $180,000 - 200,000.  Granted, the math scores are close.

I don't have statistics regarding CC family incomes, and I don't know what you call "privileged."  In my experience, the majority of families in our community make far less than $180,000.  Granted, I don't know what their exact incomes are, but I do know their professions. 

Sidenote:  I know that the numbers you asked for were regarding high-income homeschoolers.  If that data exists, I have no clue where to find it.  However, I can't imagine that there would be a glaring difference between the $180,000 - 200,000 income bracket test scores of public, private, & homeschooled students.  If someone else was to find it, I would love to see the comparison.  Based on the comparisons I've already seen, I have a pretty good idea how that would turn out.

I do want to emphasize that I'm not trying to imply that CC is the best program out there for everyone.  I mentioned earlier that I don't think it's the best option for everyone.  I'm not even sure that CC in high school will be the best option for us.  My point is that CC students are successful, they score well, and they are easily able to gain college admission.  I think if one compared similarly solid programs with CC, one would find that the scores were similar.


  • Lotsoflittleducklings likes this

#255 YodaGirl

YodaGirl

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:49 PM

Without the context of the Z-Scores, percentiles, study design, etc. this doesn't tell us as much as it would appear. Yes, the raw scores may be higher, but if they are still less than 1 SD above the mean, it tells us NOTHING (for certain).

I respectfully disagree, but that's okay!  :)


  • Gregkar likes this

#256 yvonne

yvonne

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 2391 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 12:53 PM

nm

Edited by yvonne, 15 July 2017 - 01:46 PM.


#257 Paige

Paige

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 4507 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 01:10 PM

Most families in our community are far from privileged.  Sure, a handful are, but that's certainly not the norm.

 

I get the distinct feeling that whatever I post will be questioned unless those results indicate that CC students perform at or below average, but I'll play, anyway.   ;)

Previously, we've been looking at 2014 SAT results.  I had a difficult time finding results from 2014 that were separated by income, but I did find an article analyzing the 2013 test results.  Now, I know that there can be some issues with comparing separate years. However, this article from the Washington Post indicates that the results between 2013 & 2014 were stagnant.
 

2013 Scores according to this article are 


Reading: 496
Writing:  488
Math:  514


Those scores are all within 1 point of their 2014 scores.
 

So, the statistics I posted earlier:

The scores I posted earlier (CC vs top state vs natl avg):

SAT Reading
630 vs 612 vs 497
SAT Writing
577 vs 587 vs 487
SAT Math
569 vs 620 vs 513


More directly compared, the average CC Homeschooler Score vs Average Homeschooler Score:
SAT Reading
630 vs 567

SAT Writing
577 vs 535

SAT Math
569 vs 521

 

MSNBC published this article in March 2014 comparing family incomes and SAT scores.  The Washington Post also posted a similar article

 

Let's continue under the assumption that CC families are privileged and look at SAT scores of students with a household income of approximately $180,000 - 200,000.  It's important to note that neither article gives an exact score.  We'll have to estimate the scores based on the graph.  

MSNBC shows that students in families with a combined income of $180,000-200,000 scored (approximately):
Reading:  545
Writing:  540
Math: 565

Exact CC Scores vs. Approximate $180,000-200,000 income:
Reading:
630 vs 545
Writing:
577 vs 540
Math:
569 vs 565

The average student enrolled in CC out-performed the average student with a combined household income of $180,000 - 200,000.  Granted, the math scores are close.

I don't have statistics regarding CC family incomes, and I don't know what you call "privileged."  In my experience, the majority of families in our community make far less than $180,000.  Granted, I don't know what their exact incomes are, but I do know their professions. 

Sidenote:  I know that the numbers you asked for were regarding high-income homeschoolers.  If that data exists, I have no clue where to find it.  However, I can't imagine that there would be a glaring difference between the $180,000 - 200,000 income bracket test scores of public, private, & homeschooled students.  If someone else was to find it, I would love to see the comparison.  Based on the comparisons I've already seen, I have a pretty good idea how that would turn out.

I do want to emphasize that I'm not trying to imply that CC is the best program out there for everyone.  I mentioned earlier that I don't think it's the best option for everyone.  I'm not even sure that CC in high school will be the best option for us.  My point is that CC students are successful, they score well, and they are easily able to gain college admission.  I think if one compared similarly solid programs with CC, one would find that the scores were similar.

 

I wouldn't put the income for privileged so high. I think it would vary by community. It may take 180,000 in some cities but in others you may be able to live a privileged lifestyle at less than half of that. I don't think CC is a bad program or that the kids who go through it will be at any disadvantage. I only think kids with equally involved parents and parents with similar resources regarding time and money probably score similarly. For us, CC wouldn't work b/c I'm too much of a control freak regarding curricula, but I know many people who love it and feel it makes their homeschool life easier. 


  • YodaGirl likes this

#258 Lori D.

Lori D.

    Amateur Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11081 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 02:07 PM

...my concern lies with transcripts produced by ANY non-accredited person or organization. We're in California...

 

Disclaimer: using this statement from the previous post as a springboard to pull together some information about accreditation for those who may be interested -- not as a comment or argument with any poster. :)

 

 

Just would like to point out that not all brick & mortar high schools in the US are accredited, so transcripts and diplomas awarded by these high schools are not accredited. ;)

 

This can cause a problem with college admissions in some cases -- usually problematic with high schools that are based on "credit recovery" or those that are working to move students at high risk of dropping out through to graduation. In other cases, non-accreditation is not a problem -- usually the small "specialized", or private, or parochial high schools. CA is the rare state that also tracks and requires accreditation from brick & mortar high schools as well.

 

Homeschool transcripts and diplomas are also not accredited, but are treated very differently by colleges -- with widespread acceptance. Most colleges (outside of CA and NY) treat home-awarded diplomas and transcripts in the same way as those awarded by a public/private/charter high school. Some colleges do require a minor extra "hoop" to jump -- usually just the requirement of an SAT/ACT test score. A small number of colleges might require additional paperwork, a possible portfolio of past work, several SAT Subject test scores, or other requirement from homeschoolers.

 

In GA, resident homeschool parents can go through the accreditation process, so their transcripts and diplomas are accredited.

 

Homeschool families of any state can go through an accredited umbrella organization (Clonlara, Kolbe, etc.), that provides an accredited diploma and transcripts, which are accepted by colleges in all states, except for some of the NY SUNY/CUNY schools.

 

Even in CA and NY, there are (difficult, annoying, restrictive) processes that homeschool high school students can go through so that their transcripts and diplomas will be accepted by colleges in those states. And some individual colleges in NY are less restrictive than others. Here is a list of NY Homeschool-Friendly Colleges.

 

If living inside CA or NY and planning on attending a college outside of those states, homeschoolers do NOT need to have followed the CA or NY restrictive regulations specifically for college admission in order to have transcripts and diplomas accepted at the outside-of-CA-or-NY college -- homeschoolers need only to meet the requirements of the specific college (usually just completion of a specific set of credits and an SAT/ACT score).

 

If living outside of CA or NY and wanting to attend a college inside CA or NY, homeschoolers DO need to meet those more restrictive homeschool requirements. CA colleges are a bit more flexible, allowing out-of-state homeschool applicants to show "essentially equivalent" courses. From the UC Admissions for Homeschool Students webpage: "Your home schooling courses are UC-approved for satisfying a-g requirements (for students in California), or are essentially equivalent to UC approved courses for California high schools (for out-of-state students)."

 

Again, just to clarify: Classical Conversation (CC) is a homeschool co-op, and not an accredited school or umbrella organization, and so the for-a-fee transcripts prepared by CC are not accredited, nor is any diploma that CC might provide. The only benefit of paying for CC record-keeping is the convenience of not having to do so yourself. Colleges do not give extra weight or consideration to transcripts created by CC, or see them as being more "official" (see SWB's post #80 of this thread). CC's unaccredited transcripts are identical in "weight" to the unaccredited transcripts prepared by homeschool parents.


Edited by Lori D., 15 July 2017 - 04:59 PM.

  • Lotsoflittleducklings and YodaGirl like this

#259 Where's Toto?

Where's Toto?

    Eclectically Us-Schooling

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6329 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 02:49 PM

I"m curious about where the scores for CC students came from.   I would assume that those scores are those students where the parents told CC what their kids scored?    Self-reporting of that type often skews results since those who didn't do well, may not want to share that information.  If I'm missing something, and there is some way that CC was sent the official scores for all students that were enrolled, let me know.

 

Also, from one of the links back a few pages - do they really charge $100 to apply to be a tutor?


  • frogger, heatherwith3, Paige and 6 others like this

#260 YodaGirl

YodaGirl

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 03:01 PM

I"m curious about where the scores for CC students came from. I would assume that those scores are those students where the parents told CC what their kids scored? Self-reporting of that type often skews results since those who didn't do well, may not want to share that information. If I'm missing something, and there is some way that CC was sent the official scores for all students that were enrolled, let me know.

Also, from one of the links back a few pages - do they really charge $100 to apply to be a tutor?


The scores are from CC's catalog. I don't know where they originated from, although I would assume it is self-reported. I don't have time to look into it at the moment.

No, tutors don't pay $100 to apply to be a tutor. Tutors dont pay anything to be a tutor.

#261 Tibbie Dunbar

Tibbie Dunbar

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6038 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 03:10 PM

Most families in our community are far from privileged.  Sure, a handful are, but that's certainly not the norm...

 
Let's continue under the assumption that CC families are privileged and look at SAT scores of students with a household income of approximately $180,000 - 200,000....

I don't have statistics regarding CC family incomes, and I don't know what you call "privileged."  In my experience, the majority of families in our community make far less than $180,000.  Granted, I don't know what their exact incomes are, but I do know their professions....
.[/i]


YodaGirl, if you'll look at the median income in your city, you will probably get a new perspective on whether cc families are necessarily privileged. In my city, the median income is around $50,000, and people at that level are frequently making hard choices regarding kids' extracurriculars and health care. No chance of paying for CC. (However, those of us hs'ers near median income have been known to help our kids to an Ivy League prep level education, all on our own, thanks to resources such as WTM and library cards...)
  • Jane Elliot and heatherwith3 like this

#262 Tibbie Dunbar

Tibbie Dunbar

    Apprentice Bee Keeper

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 6038 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 03:11 PM

The scores are from CC's catalog. I don't know where they originated from, although I would assume it is self-reported. I don't have time to look into it at the moment.

No, tutors don't pay $100 to apply to be a tutor. Tutors dont pay anything to be a tutor.


Of course, they are self-reported!
  • heatherwith3 likes this

#263 YodaGirl

YodaGirl

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 03:34 PM

YodaGirl, if you'll look at the median income in your city, you will probably get a new perspective on whether cc families are necessarily privileged. In my city, the median income is around $50,000, and people at that level are frequently making hard choices regarding kids' extracurriculars and health care. No chance of paying for CC. (However, those of us hs'ers near median income have been known to help our kids to an Ivy League prep level education, all on our own, thanks to resources such as WTM and library cards...)

 

The median income in my city is just under $40,000. Over half of our community comes from a neighboring town with a median income of just under $47,000.

At least two families fall in that range. One of them actually has 3 children enrolled in CC. I can think of 4 families who would be considered upper-class. The rest would fall solidly in middle-class.

Can you successfully home school your child without going through CC? Absolutely! Why would anyone suggest otherwise? No one is suggesting that CC is the best and only way to successfully homeschool. I've actually said over and over that it's not.

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.

Of course, they are self-reported!


Well, that's why I assumed they were. ;)
  • Lotsoflittleducklings and Itsnotasprint like this

#264 Bethany Grace

Bethany Grace

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1066 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 08:37 PM



The median income in my city is just under $40,000. Over half of our community comes from a neighboring town with a median income of just under $47,000.

At least two families fall in that range. One of them actually has 3 children enrolled in CC. I can think of 4 families who would be considered upper-class. The rest would fall solidly in middle-class.

Can you successfully home school your child without going through CC? Absolutely! Why would anyone suggest otherwise? No one is suggesting that CC is the best and only way to successfully homeschool. I've actually said over and over that it's not.

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.


Well, that's why I assumed they were. ;)


That's my experience here as well. We are not upper income by any means. This will be our first year of CC, and it's a stretch for us. The rest of our community are also not privileged/upper income. I have mixed feelings about CC, but am confident in our tutors, and believe the social/group dynamics will be good for my teens. I do work part-time, and being able to drop off my students (both in Challenge) is one of the benefits for us because their community day is a work day for me. The other local co-op requires parents stay all day, which is fine but doesn't work well for us. Generally, I would prefer a cottage or UM school, but they don't exist here. I don't know about the differences in test scores and don't really care. I care about preparing my two students, which is what I'll do. CC doesn't provide a transcript and doesn't claim to be a school. In their materials and website, I've seen it said over and over that the parent is the teacher. Tutors are there to provide support and direct class discussion and activity. I think it's important to go into CC with an accurate understanding of what it is and isn't....and I'm sure there's a lot of variation in the quality and dynamics of the communities. For our family this year, I think we're making the best choice of what's available in our area and hoping that it will meet our needs. Most homeschoolers here (CC and otherwise) switch to dual enrollment at the community college for 11/12th grades, which is our plan as well.
  • Another Lynn, Lotsoflittleducklings and YodaGirl like this

#265 Itsnotasprint

Itsnotasprint

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 08:53 PM

 



Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.

 

 

My personal experience and experiences that others have shared with me is why I would never use CC again nor would I recommend it to anyone. 

 

The higher ups are so busy trying to make sure no one infringes on their copyrighted materials that they require people to notify people higher up on the chain of command if they even suspect that someone might be using their materials incorrectly. They are not encouraged to go directly to the person spoken about to find out if something is true or not. I was thoroughly ripped apart by a director who heard untrue things about me. She went around to the tutors asking what I was doing and became convinced that a tutor was breaking her contract by tutoring at my house. She was completely WRONG and then refused to believe I was telling her the truth.  She trashed my reputation with a false accusation among the tutors and people who attended the church where CC was hosted. 

 

The area manager wanted to talk with me over the phone, but I respectfully  requested having questions answered via email communication. She was kind enough to do that for me.  I've left CC, but the director has remained in CC with no apparent consequences for her behavior. She is no longer a director because people left her campus, but she is still an active part of CC. 



#266 YodaGirl

YodaGirl

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 15 July 2017 - 09:00 PM

My personal experience and experiences that others have shared with me is why I would never use CC again nor would I recommend it to anyone.

The higher ups are so busy trying to make sure no one infringes on their copyrighted materials that they require people to notify people higher up on the chain of command if they even suspect that someone might be using their materials incorrectly. They are not encouraged to go directly to the person spoken about to find out if something is true or not. I was thoroughly ripped apart by a director who heard untrue things about me. She went around to the tutors asking what I was doing and became convinced that a tutor was breaking her contract by tutoring at my house. She was completely WRONG and then refused to believe I was telling her the truth. She trashed my reputation with a false accusation among the tutors and people who attended the church where CC was hosted.

The area manager wanted to talk with me over the phone, but I respectfully requested having questions answered via email communication. She was kind enough to do that for me. I've left CC, but the director has remained in CC with no apparent consequences for her behavior. She is no longer a director because people left her campus, but she is still an active part of CC.


That's absolutely insane! I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Our campus is completely different, as is one of the campuses in the next town over. There are good and bad campuses, and there is at least one around here that I would not recommend.

I think experiences and reviews vary so much because the quality of campuses and directors vary so much. This is definitely one of those tones when your mileage may vary.
  • Lotsoflittleducklings likes this

#267 HomeAgain

HomeAgain

    Empress Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3098 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 05:44 AM

I have had very little experience with CC, but given what I have had I'd rather not have any more.

 

The parents were very thrilled to be part of their community.  Very.  They talked about it at every turn.

 

The children were very informed when it came to rote information.  They could read and write and color maps well.  When I asked which pronunciation they used for Latin, though, both the young teens and parents were confused.  "We don't read it aloud.  We just write it."

 

When I found myself sharing my 1st grader's materials with upper CC parents for English and Latin, I decided perhaps we better continue doing this at home instead of looking into the community.

 

There seems to be a wide range of education offered through CC.  It makes me doubt some of the test numbers given in this thread, or at the very least the idea that my kid would do better there instead of where he is.


  • 2_girls_mommy likes this

#268 fralala

fralala

    Hive Mind Royal Larvae

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 595 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:45 AM

 

Honestly, I think some of the defensiveness of anti-CC'ers comes from the idea that CC families are wealthy and that they think CC is better than non-CC. That's just not the case.
 

 

This is a very good point. I don't have any such opinions about the people who choose to do CC, but I think you've identified something I do feel.

 

I have no personal experience with CC, but I read one of Leigh Bortin's books, and I would say that those peddling classical education models and curricula in the modern era do have a serious issue of coming off (to me) as both pretentious and preying on the insecurities of people who don't feel like they were educated well.

 

Maybe I am alone and this is more about my own baggage (grew up poor, but through fortunate circumstances ended up graduating from HYP), but I think if you don't have a high degree of self-confidence in your own worth as an educated person and educator, it can be easy to believe every bad thing these purveyors of classical education say about the education you received (and competing educational models) and every positive thing they say about their own product.

 

Somehow-- despite making some similar remarks about the state of public education in the U.S. and reasons for following a different model of education-- TWTM just doesn't give me this vibe of "We aren't just an option that might work for some kids and some parents, we are really the superior model of educating all human beings" that I got from reading Bortins. (And again, this may be more about my own personal hang-ups re: elitism than anything particularly wrong with CC, but I did feel like part of me identified with the above comment.)


  • Another Lynn, Evanthe and YodaGirl like this

#269 8FillTheHeart

8FillTheHeart

    Alice or Mad Hatter or maybe a little of both

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 13670 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:36 AM

I would say that those peddling classical education models and curricula in the modern era do have a serious issue of coming off (to me) as both pretentious and preying on the insecurities of people who don't feel like they were educated well.


I seriously don't get the pretentiousness of neo-classical philosophies. :shrug: I personally think that neoclassical misses the fundamental core that made classical education so strong in developing critical thinking skills. I am not a fan of Sayers's philosophy at all. (And I say that as someone who does not follow the true classical ed model bc I think it is impossible to replicate at home. I think modern ed misses the boat but I am on that ride anyway.)

But, the first time I read Climbing Parnassus, gosh, I detested Tracy Simmons. :p I thought he was pretentious, overbearing, and elitist to the core. I did learn to eat crow over the yrs as I researched more and grew to understand the validity of his view. I now agree with his points on classical ed. Doesn't mean that I don't believe there are other way to become well-educated, but it is a different education. I think that true classical is probably the best way to develop deep critical thinking skills. I think my kids are well-educated, but no, they don't receive the benefit of a classical ed. In no way can I provide anything close to resembling either Simmons's or the Ratio's methodology.
  • Another Lynn, brehon, Evanthe and 1 other like this

#270 Lotsoflittleducklings

Lotsoflittleducklings

    The Mom Around Here

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3800 posts

Posted 16 July 2017 - 08:58 AM

 TWTM just doesn't give me this vibe of "We aren't just an option that might work for some kids and some parents, we are really the superior model of educating all human beings" that I got from reading Bortins. 

 

I see what you are saying.  I didn't dislike The Core, but I also prefer TWTM both in content and in tone. 

 

I think that that difference in tone may be because TWTM was written to promote an educational philosophy (classical home-based education), but Bortins, while promoting the same philosophy, is also promoting her own program as a means to putting in into practice.  As one who has had a (mostly) positive experience with CC, it IS a product worth promoting.  Marketing something is not bad. I've also had good experiences with other homeschool "products" and am grateful they were "promoted" by advertisers and by those who've used them successfully, including all you amazing folks here on TWTM forums.  ;)

 

But when the impression is given by any marketable option out there (CC, boxed curriculum, UM schools, for-profit online groups, etc...)  that IT is the ONLY or BEST way to do Classical home-based education....  well, that grates on my nerves. Probably on all of ours.   CC has had some PR-fails in this respect, IMHO.  (I'm thinking of one particular facebook ad that essentially equates Classical home-based education with CC; and while my own area-rep and director are great, there undoubtedly are some who've pushed CC as the ONLY way, too.)  

 

That shouldn't happen; Corporate CC should review its marketing strategies to prevent it, and train its reps and directors in their own "sales tactics," too.    


  • Evanthe, CDan, fralala and 1 other like this

#271 G5052

G5052

    Retired Homeschool Mom -- they're in college!

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 9008 posts

Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:12 AM

I"m curious about where the scores for CC students came from.   I would assume that those scores are those students where the parents told CC what their kids scored?    Self-reporting of that type often skews results since those who didn't do well, may not want to share that information.  If I'm missing something, and there is some way that CC was sent the official scores for all students that were enrolled, let me know.

 

The scores had to be self-reported. Only an accredited school or school systems that are approved to give the SAT can receive their students' grades.

 

Multiple times during the seven years we were with CC, there was a call for National Latin Exam scores, standardized testing scores, SAT/ACT scores, and even AP scores with the names of the students. I always refused to do that, even when I was in charge of giving the National Latin Exam for our campus. It's never going to be statistically significant data that way, and I didn't like the invasion of privacy.


Edited by G5052, 17 July 2017 - 08:18 AM.

  • 8FillTheHeart, yvonne, Where's Toto? and 2 others like this

#272 luuknam

luuknam

    Feeling the Weight of Levity

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5189 posts

Posted 17 July 2017 - 02:32 PM

But again, you can't make a direct connection with these stats. There's big difference between the average homeschool family and the CC family.

 

Not sure the difference is all that big, to be honest. I'm pretty sure that the average homeschool family's income is above average, especially if you take into consideration that most households in the US have 2 working parents, whereas plenty of homeschool families have only one working parent (in other words, if one parent earns $50k, that family is better off than if 2 parents combined make $50k, when it comes to helping kids with homework etc if enrolled in school, or with homeschooling if not). 

 

Without the context of the Z-Scores, percentiles, study design, etc. this doesn't tell us as much as it would appear. Yes, the raw scores may be higher, but if they are still less than 1 SD above the mean, it tells us NOTHING (for certain).

 

That's just not true. If the sample size is large enough, it could be a statistically significant difference if the average CC kid scored 541 and the average other kid scored 540, or w/e. Of course, it would also be a pretty meaningless difference, since I'm not going to care about a 1 point difference when I decide how to educate my kid, but the difference does certainly not have to be >1SD in order to be meaningful.

 

I get the distinct feeling that whatever I post will be questioned unless those results indicate that CC students perform at or below average, but I'll play, anyway.   ;)

 

 

That's simply not true. Some of us just object to misusing statistics, that's all. The comparison to other homeschool scores and high income scores would indicate that CC grads do pretty well. That said, Toto did bring up an important point:

 

I"m curious about where the scores for CC students came from.   I would assume that those scores are those students where the parents told CC what their kids scored?    Self-reporting of that type often skews results since those who didn't do well, may not want to share that information.  

 

 

I don't remember, did CC give the number of grads that submitted their scores? If it's the vast majority of their grads, I'm going to be willing to say that it does appear that their grads perform above average in anything other than math, where they seem fairly average for their SES etc. If, however, they polled only a few of their campuses, then they could've easily picked the ones they think would perform well above average, and the numbers would be meaningless (that'd be like picking a dozen public high schools in the US and posting their average scores and then saying that public school grads do very well - I'm sure I could pick a dozen schools to poll that would have well-above average scores, even without knowing all that much about them). 


  • Calming Tea likes this

#273 luuknam

luuknam

    Feeling the Weight of Levity

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5189 posts

Posted 17 July 2017 - 02:36 PM

That's just not true. If the sample size is large enough, it could be a statistically significant difference if the average CC kid scored 541 and the average other kid scored 540, or w/e. Of course, it would also be a pretty meaningless difference, since I'm not going to care about a 1 point difference when I decide how to educate my kid, but the difference does certainly not have to be >1SD in order to be meaningful.

 

 

Btw, it would be good to know what the standard deviation on the SAT is for CC, homeschool, public school, private school, etc. If the SD for one of those groups is much bigger than for the others, then that would indicate that you'd really be rolling the dice by picking that option... you might come out anywhere from much worse than average to much better than average.



#274 YodaGirl

YodaGirl

    Hive Mind Larvae

  • Members
  • 40 posts

Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:05 PM

When I found myself sharing my 1st grader's materials with upper CC parents for English and Latin, I decided perhaps we better continue doing this at home instead of looking into the community.


It's really not surprising that Foundations materials could be utilized for Challenge-level students. Foundations was designed for preparing students for Challenge. Some of the English Grammar (definitions & word lists) and Latin memorization (declensions & conjugations) are helpful for older students. If the student is new to CC or just needed review, it would make sense that Foundations material would be beneficial.

That's simply not true. Some of us just object to misusing statistics, that's all. The comparison to other homeschool scores and high income scores would indicate that CC grads do pretty well.



In all fairness, it was suggested that there's no way to determine if CC students do well and that it was possible they did worse.

I posted scores.

The legitimacy of the comparison was questioned because it wasn't comparing CC homeschoolers to non-CC homeschoolers.

I posted that comparison.

The legitimacy of that comparison was questioned because it was suggested that income levels made a difference. (Hence my comment that you quoted.)

I posted that comparison.

I was right. When nothing else could be questioned, the idea became "the scores aren't legit so the comparison is invalid."

It didn't appear to be an attempt to find legit comparisons. It appeared to be attempt after attempt to explain away results that contradicted preconceived notions.

Maybe that's not what it was, but it certainly is the way it appeared.

#275 HomeAgain

HomeAgain

    Empress Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 3098 posts

Posted 18 July 2017 - 06:54 AM

It's really not surprising that Foundations materials could be utilized for Challenge-level students. Foundations was designed for preparing students for Challenge. Some of the English Grammar (definitions & word lists) and Latin memorization (declensions & conjugations) are helpful for older students. If the student is new to CC or just needed review, it would make sense that Foundations material would be beneficial.

 

 

Mmmm....maybe.  But my son's material was clearer and better taught than what they were getting. I wasn't impressed with what they were doing at all.


  • 2_girls_mommy likes this

#276 Calming Tea

Calming Tea

    Hive Mind Queen Bee

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5605 posts

Posted 18 July 2017 - 08:13 PM

It's really not surprising that Foundations materials could be utilized for Challenge-level students. Foundations was designed for preparing students for Challenge. Some of the English Grammar (definitions & word lists) and Latin memorization (declensions & conjugations) are helpful for older students. If the student is new to CC or just needed review, it would make sense that Foundations material would be beneficial.



In all fairness, it was suggested that there's no way to determine if CC students do well and that it was possible they did worse.

I posted scores.

The legitimacy of the comparison was questioned because it wasn't comparing CC homeschoolers to non-CC homeschoolers.

I posted that comparison.

The legitimacy of that comparison was questioned because it was suggested that income levels made a difference. (Hence my comment that you quoted.)

I posted that comparison.

I was right. When nothing else could be questioned, the idea became "the scores aren't legit so the comparison is invalid."

It didn't appear to be an attempt to find legit comparisons. It appeared to be attempt after attempt to explain away results that contradicted preconceived notions.

Maybe that's not what it was, but it certainly is the way it appeared.


I'm all for clear statistics and I'm not a CC fan, but I think that questioning CC's educational results makes no sense since homeschool results are so extremely variable and in so many cases unreported.

I think you've made a goood case that CC students are getting a decent education,.

Again I think the problem with CC isn't the material it's all the other stuff about it, which makes it a frustrating product and because of the corporate control that it's not likely to change.

I for one would love to have used it as an option for my son who is very advanced, about 2 levels ahead of it. I would love for them to update the science and math to match what everyone is actually doing. I would love to see them get rid of the MLM system so splits atop happening. I would love for them to encourage stable communities, and to update it so that the tutors actually become trained teachers who do grading at the challenge level, and charge more for the program.

But that's not CC. :) CC is a highly controlled, highly aggressively marketed MLM company whose profits lie in keeping the model the way it is with no innovation on old material, low pay for employees, higher pay if they move up the ladder, and ridgid rules that only feed the MLM model rather than grow the community.

The books are fine if that's what you like.
  • Another Lynn likes this