Reading remediation/dyslexia - not Barton

[TracyP]

Ds is 9yo and can decode at about a 4th grade level, but I've realized he has a lot of gaps. I've been considering Barton lately, but reading the s/o Barton thread has convinced me it is not going to be right for us. I was already iffy because if my ds has dyslexia (I suspect but no diagnosis) it doesn't seem to be very severe. Finding out that it is not recommended for kids with an expressive language delay completely rules it out, since that is a diagnosis we have.

 

We have a neuropsych evaluation scheduled for the end of May. Would I be better off waiting until then to tackle this question? That seems like a long time to wait when I know there is an issue...

 

We've been through Phonics Pathways, but I've considered going through it again. Is that a good idea for now? What other options are there?

[OneStepAtATime]

Since the eval is not all that far away you might consider waiting to invest in a formal program until after the evaluation.  

 

I also would not immediately rule out Barton because others whose child has had an expressive language delay have successfully used it but yeah, you might want to wait and get the evaluation.  

 

In the meantime, you might give the free tutor/student screenings on Barton's website.  That is not a test for dyslexia but might help you determine if your child is ready for any OG based system and that you can actually hear and replicate sounds clearly enough to tutor with an OG based system (I have a friend who took the tutor screening and discovered she was not hearing/reproducing certain sounds correctly and it had been terribly confusing her youngster).  Easy to administer, but make sure you are both rested, you will not be interrupted, the area you are administering the test is quiet (no distracting ambient noises) since it is CRITICAL that you/he hear all the sounds accurately, and you will not be rushing through because you have to go somewhere else.  It is not a commitment to using Barton in particular, it is just a simple diagnostic tool that might give you another piece to the puzzle.  Did I mention it is free? :)

 

https://bartonreading.com/tutors/#ts

 

https://bartonreading.com/students/#ss

[Plink]

What specific gaps are you noticing?  Each program puts emphasis on different skills.

[OneStepAtATime]

What specific gaps are you noticing? Each program puts emphasis on different skills.

Really excellent point

[TracyP]

What specific gaps are you noticing?  Each program puts emphasis on different skills.

 

I gave him the NRRF reading competency test the other day (part 2).

 

At 1st grade he scored independent level - he had one wrong, missed 's' at end of steps.

2nd grade he scored instructional level - he couldn't read groove or balance

3rd grade instructional -  he missed hinder and tough

4th grade instructional - he missed immense, preceded, directs, motions

 

The results were: Score = 1st Grade Reading Level. The student needs remedial help in mastering the complete phonetic code.

 

I notice that he isn't completely solid on long vowels - he can read them perfectly in context, but not in isolation. He struggles with r-controlled vowels. He also leaves off suffixes and mixes up small words like of/for/from.

[PeterPan]

You're going to want a CTOPP done before you begin Barton. It definitely looks like he needs intervention. If you can get a reading tutor or someone to do the CTOPP sooner (and have the psych agree to use it in their analysis), then that would be a way. 

 

Have you had his language retested? Have you done intervention for it? The issue isn't so much expressive language as receptive. My ds had low language scores (like 25th percentile and lower) and he got to a point with Barton where he was basically a hyperlexic dyslexic. He was literally reading beyond what he could understand. It was screwy, totally screwy.

 

So that's what Barton is trying to avoid. And there are other scenarios, but that's the basic point. So if you've done some language intervention and he currently tests 50th percentile, I would proceed and not worry about it. Talk with Barton, but for us getting the language scores up bumped comprehension to be able to proceed. So it's an issue, but not an unsolvable issue, kwim?

 

If your language scores are recent and you haven't done intervention or have more intervention planned, I'd proceed with that. That's if the receptive is low. Expressive isn't so much an issue, honestly. Lots of non-verbal kids read. I understand you're not saying he's non-verbal, but I'm just saying expressive doesn't have to be there, only receptive. So you could use the next three months and kick some butt on receptive language (which may also need some work if the scores were low for IQ), get that up, get the CTOPP and full diagnosis with your evals in May, then begin Barton. 

 

As far as language intervention, I'm really partial to the GPP (Grammar Processing Program), but you could pretty much go through Super Duper Inc or Linguisystems or what have you and pick things you think will stretch him and they'll be fine.

 

Waiting on that Barton will be really valuable to you in the sense that the dyslexia diagnosis will open doors to NLS/BARD, etc. I know it's awful to wait though and I hear you. I can't recall what I did with my ds. I think I did *some* LIPS before his psych eval. He still tested low enough to be diagnosed easily, no problem. 

 

Have you done the Barton pre-test? How did he do on that? That would be really telling. And any chance of getting the CTOPP sooner?

[TracyP]

It sounds like CTOPP is similar to CELF? He has been getting speech services since he was 4. His last evaluation by the SLP was in May. He is diagnosed with mixed expressive-receptive delay, so we have both going on. That is the big reason for his eval - trying to figure if his issues can all be explained by his language delay or if there is more going on. The SLP has him working through Linguisystems and V&V. This makes me think waiting really is my best bet. Ugh.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:

[PeterPan]

No, those tests are totally different. CTOPP is the comprehensive test of phonological processing, and it kicks out a bunch of really useful scores on phonological processing, RAN/RAS (rapid naming), etc. It's going to give you some really useful data. The CELF is a good language test. My ds had the CELF and the CASL with different people.

 

Honestly, I know you know this, but are you going to a psych who is good with autism? Our first psych with ds was a buffoon and said it was ADHD-inattentive, which NOBODY agrees with. Like literally nobody. Not me, not anybody who knows him, not the ps psych, not the other psychs, not the behaviorist, nobody. But I think what happened with us was that we were getting a LOT of speech therapy (like multiple hours a week) and I was doing a LOT of intervention with him myself, and our SLP was clearly using ABA type interaction and getting that interaction bump. It really shifted how he presented! Especially it shows up with adults, because he had had therapy since he was 2, for hours a week, of this is what the adult expects, sit in a chair, look at me, engage, be strapped down, this is what you do. So when he got in with adults, he could kick that in. But he'd get in with KIDS and it was a totally different story!

 

Whatever, I just have this thing in my craw about how that goes down. It doesn't help anyone when people get really close to the situation and emotional, never see him in other contexts (with kids, etc.) and then go oh, I don't think it's autism. Not helpful. 

 

Since you have your baseline language scores, I would do more for language. How old is he? I can't guess from your sig, sorry. The stuff she's doing is fine, but you could bring in something like the Grammar Processing Program from Super Duper Inc, and it would be complementary. It would definitely not be too much. My scores jumped dramatically with a year of that. LIke a school year year, not a calendar year. And that was working pretty consistently, like maybe 10-15 min a day. So if she's working AND you're working, you're complementary, not overkill.

 

What I like about GPP is that it's systemic (think Saxon for language, incremental, always small steps), easy, funny, colorful, and powerful. You can hit both the expressive AND receptive using it. 

The Grammar Processing Program | Product Info

 

And if you look at it and go nope, not what he needs, then trust your gut on that. But you could snoop around there and find something else. They have lots of really neat things. The magnatab boards are awesome. Like any other curriculum, just go with your gut on what you think will be the right fit and you'll probably be right. :)

 

[TracyP]

That whole post was really helpful, OhE. I will look into that stuff more this afternoon. We are actually on a speech break right now. We drive over an hour each way and it is too hard on MN roads in the winter. I could definitely add to what I've been given to do at home.

 

The psych was highly recommended by the SLP clinic. As in, they gave me half a dozen names but noted, "she's really great!" next to her. I don't know what her experience is with autism, though. Hmm, I have considered and brushed off the idea of autism over the years. The language piece fits autism and he does stuff like flapping his hands. But he transitions well, makes good eye contact(though it took him awhile), and follows social norms pretty well. I guess I don't know that much when it comes to autism....

 

Oh, and he is 9yo.

[PeterPan]

Oh sigh. I think you want to make sure autism is on the table, like not with quick impressions but really taking the time. Our first psych was willing to go on general impressions. He used the GARS old edition that was keyed to DSM4. I couldn't even understand the questions! And it wasn't for DSM5. Idiot, buffoon, jerk. No nice words. We did the current edition GARS and it was obvious. But there are much better tools tool. With ds, we did another psych and a behaviorist who works under a psych. There's the ADI-R, which is MUCH more detailed and now available for DSM5. That is over 100 questions, way better than the GARS. And there are a couple developmental tools they have that can discriminate ID, ASD, etc. There are tools that can discriminate ASD and mental illnesses. I think the Vineland was a developmental tool we did. I forget.

 

I'm just saying, you've got a lot on your list there that would point toward getting that question answered, and some psychs will go with cursory impressions. When people finally spent more TIME with him, they saw more. 

 

What you might do is just see who in your area is sort of the go-to place for autism. You've got a long wait there, and it might be that another place, specializing more in discriminating autism, would also have a long wait. You could get on their list and then choose later. Being on the list costs nothing, lol. 

 

I think it's really helpful to notice what's going on in different environments. Like not just eye contact or reciprocity with you and your family, but what about if you take him to the grocery store? What about at the park? What about with kids? Kids he doesn't know who approach him vs. kids he already knows? You start to see more.

 

There are levels to autism now (1-3), so it's easy to go oh he's not like x kid I know. People don't meet my ds and go oh yeah, clearly obviously on the spectrum. But if they did, he'd be diagnosed with ASD3, kwim? Like that's the point of the levels. They meet him and after 20 minutes go WHY IN THE WORLD... That's ASD1. And people who work with kids a lot, like when we went to Disney last month, pick it up really, really fast. We did a pirate makeover, so it was all these jokes and social thinking, and he just got NONE of it, lol. Like it was totally hilarious. I videoed parts, and you just wouldn't believe. He'd laugh at the wrong things, not get the jokes, just sit there. It took her 1 1/2 hours to do something that normally goes much faster. Even the pirate creed at the end they recite to become a joke he couldn't finish, because they start with normal repeating and then are supposed to say "And all that" at the end. Well she's like "Just say 'all that!" and he's like "But I can't say all that!" And they went back and forth like this for several minutes, lol. It was totally hilarious, lol.

 

Anyways. Yeah, I hear you on the driving. We were driving 2 hours each, ugh. Talk about horrible. And some people drive more. We aren't right now, but maybe we'll resume at some point. We need to, sigh. He has a palatal expander right now, so that's my excuse. 

 

Yeah, if you're on a therapy break, absolutely look through Super Duper and see what screams out at you. They have a pull-down tab with keywords, so you could pull down autism or apraxia or whatever seems to apply. Don't recall if they had language delays. The autism keyword will probably get you language delay *and* social skills, so it's a two-fer. I'm all over the two-fers. They have a really nice Pirate Talk game. 

 

If there is an autism clinic within a sane drive, sometimes they can be really good. Sometimes universities will have them. They'll do a whole bunch of evals under one roof. You don't HAVE to do it that way, but it can be really nice. It gets lots of people looking at him from lots of perspectives.

 

My ds is kind of funny btw. Like sometimes he's really professorial, telling you about stuff, going on and on. We went to a university audiology dept to do some testing on him and he seemed to have really good rapport with the student audiologist. They were talking, it was going well. Then we walked down the hall from one room to the next to continue (it was a team, with a professor, a lead student, a secondary student, me, and ds), and he just stopped responding! Like to anybody! And of course the audiologist totally totally caught that, because they wanted to make sure that not responding didn't have an audiology explanation. 

 

My point is, some of this stuff is funky sporadic. It happened several times over an hour, so they got to see it multiple times. If they were filling out some of those autism forms, they'd be ticking it off. But we were idiots and didn't have anyone with him enough to fill out those forms but people who were seeing him for 30 minute chunks in highly preferred activities. So it was like 30 minutes at swim class. Those people weren't seeing behaviors before or after the class, ONLY the 29 minutes in class. So of course they couldn't mark anything!!!!!!!!! Hear me screaming. But anyone observing before or after the class would have seen a lot, like him not responding to kids, him having transition issues, him punching me for 45 minutes because we used a different bathroom. But the person we asked to fill out that form saw him the other 29 minutes in the middle and couldn't mark any of that.

 

It's a huge disadvantage homeschoolers have. So you really want to have someone who is very observant (not blowing things off) hang with him for significant chunks if they're to fill out those forms. And you really want the forms. Because this is the time to get it diagnosed if it's going on, sigh.

 

I don't think transitions are in the criteria. I think it's just an observation people have. And even so, my ds transitions better probably than some kids. The more severe it gets, the harder they are. My ds *can* be a pain the butt. It really just varies with the day. If he has been off of something for a couple weeks, transitioning back can be really hard. It feels, when you work with him, like inertia, like it just takes so much energy to get him going. A body at rest stays at rest, lol. Joyce somebody's book (Teaching Them with Love?) is really good for describing it. Honestly, some things that I was seeing at the level 1 expression didn't make sense to me till I saw them in a level 3 context and saw they were the same, just maybe a different frequency or severity.

 

There it is. Superb book.

 Teaching Your Child with Love and Skill: A Guide for Parents and Other Educators of Children with Autism, including...

 

 

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 10, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[ElizabethB]

Still in draft form for someone not used to teaching phonics, but good enough for any homeschool mom who has taught some phonics, free to print, takes 3 to 7 hours to work through:

 

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On%20Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

 

I have found the "optional" nonsense word 10 page document really powerful for progress. Time the words, do 50 words a day, measure accuracy and speed improvement. The goal is 100 words per minute orally with 100% accuracy.

Edited February 11, 2017 by ElizabethB

[TracyP]

So I finally had a chance to give the Barton screening yesterday, and he passed easily. I'll definitely keep it in mind as an option after his eval. Although, once we pay for that, it will be awhile before Barton could financially even be  a possibility...

 

ElizabethB, your stuff always looks great. I'll look it over better when I have some more time. (Swimming has consumed our life for the last few months, but it ends today. Yay!)

 

OhElizabeth, the autism angle is interesting. Our psych worked in an autism clinic before joining the practice she's currently at, so she should be experienced in spotting autism. I have looked over the diagnostic criteria, though, and I don't think that will be his diagnosis. His social skills seem pretty typical - except for the language piece. His behavior is rarely an issue - except for when he hasn't had the language to express his frustration. Still, several of his issues totally fit the autism diagnosis. It's on my radar, but I'll trust whatever we find at the evaluation.

 

Thanks for all the advice.

Edited February 16, 2017 by TracyP