Confused about transfer status

[lewelma]

We have worked very hard for ds to be considered a full time high school student even though he is taking math classes at the local university.  He can't compete in the IMO unless he is a high school student.  So the solution has been to have him apply each semester under the "personal interest" clause at our university, which allows him to take a single class in a single semester and to NOT be actually accepted for general enrollment.  This way he is NOT a university student from the point of view of the IMO committee.  This plan has been vetted by the IMO NZ committee. 

 

So now I read this:

 

 

 

Transfer Students

Princeton does not accept applications for admission from students who have already enrolled in a university. We do not have a transfer admission process at this time, and we consider anyone who has begun university elsewhere to be a transfer applicant.

 

They are using the words "enrolled" and "begun university" in a somewhat vague way from my point of view.  Is Princeton off the list for my ds because he took 4 math classes at university?

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by lewelma

[wapiti]

Wouldn't they simply be considered Dual Enrollment courses?  Princeton anticipates that such courses may be taken.  From Academic Preparation:

 

Whenever you can, challenge yourself with the most rigorous courses possible, such as honors, Advanced Placement (AP) and dual-enrollment courses. 

 

And the FAQ:

How does Princeton regard college courses taken during high school? 

 

Taking college courses while you are a high school student indicates to us that you seek out academic challenges, but we do not expect students to have taken college courses before they apply. Applicants who have taken college courses are most often at high schools not offering many advanced courses such as advanced placement or International Baccalaureate.

 

Will college-credit courses taken in high school transfer to Princeton?

 

Princeton does not offer credit toward degree requirements for college or university courses taken before you enroll. However, you can take SAT Subject Tests, AP exams or placement exams offered by some academic departments at Princeton to demonstrate your knowledge in a subject, which may permit you to skip the introductory-level course in that area. You can find detailed information about Princeton’s AP policy in our undergraduate course catalog.

 

Can I earn credit for courses taken at another college or university?

 

Students are not eligible for credit for college courses taken before they enter Princeton. Many academic departments at Princeton offer advanced placement to students who have done well on an approved standardized exam (AP, IB, A-Level). Some departments may award advanced placement for a high score on departmental placement tests. Consult the Reference Table for AP Credit.

 

My school has a dual-enrollment program with a local college and I have completed college courses through that program. Can I earn credit for those courses?

 

Although students are not eligible for credit for college courses taken through a dual-enrollment program, students may earn advanced placement for high scores on departmental placement tests offered by some Princeton departments. Consult the Reference Table for AP Credit.

 

(A side note, Princeton will be resuming transfer admissions in 2018, apparently)

 

Edited February 5, 2017 by wapiti

[Kathy in Richmond]

You're fine, Ruth, as long as his university courses are taken before he graduates from high school. As wapiti noted, they'll be considered dual enrollment courses, which are OK. At places like Princeton, this is a very common situation.

[lewelma]

Ok. Just a small freak out.  We don't have dual enrollment here.  The classes ds has taken at university do not count for his high school math requirements so he has had to back track and take high school math tests.  So I was left a bit confused.  I will start reading the dual enrollment info for universities.  Thanks!

[lewelma]

You're fine, Ruth, as long as his university courses are taken before he graduates from high school. As wapiti noted, they'll be considered dual enrollment courses, which are OK. At places like Princeton, this is a very common situation.

 

Um, ds got his high school diploma last month.   :huh:

[lewelma]

 

Students are not eligible for credit for college courses taken before they enter Princeton.

 

Yikes!  Does this mean that you basically have to go for 4 full years.  (I'm thinking money here!!)

[Kathy in Richmond]

Then I would call or email & ask specific questions. Your situation in NZ is certainly unique and different form our US school situations.  It sounded (in your other thread) like MIT was willing to consider you homeschoolers. In that case, they may consider his graduation date to be when you choose to graduate him from your homeschool. I'm just guessing here -- definitely ask questions!

[lewelma]

Honestly, it is a disaster.  I think I'm just going to have to do the best I can and put in quite a few footnotes to make sure it does not look like I am lying!

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

I wouldn't count on graduating early at the kinds of schools you're proposing. Most of these schools give little advanced placement or transfer credit. I can't think of any kids in my son's or daughter's schools who got done in less than 3 1/2 years, and that even was unusual and involved taken big course loads or going through the summer (extra tuition). Have you run the financial calculators?

[lewelma]

Yeah, the financial calculators are not promising.  But we have decided that a good education will cost, and we are willing to pay what we have to.

 

DS's experience this year at maths camp solidified our desire to find him peers.  He called every night and was just so up, just so high on life.  He became a leader as a returning team member, and a mentor to all the youngsters who were so scared.  And he was in a collaborative environment with kids who are like him.  A four year experience like that would be the making of him.  I think MIT is the one.

[Kathy in Richmond]

Honestly, it is a disaster.  I think I'm just going to have to do the best I can and put in quite a few footnotes to make sure it does not look like I am lying!

 

Yes, do so! And realize that all of these schools have admissions officers who are aware of the different types of schooling in New Zealand.  Have you seen the international applicants' page on the MIT admissions site? I know your son can apply as a US citizen, but some of this might still be helpful. There's even a section on countries with different academic year calendars & how to handle that situation (and New Zealand is mentioned!)

 

I know how difficult it is not to worry! I think that you are smart to start thinking now of how you'll fill out the application paperwork.  You still have lots of time to investigate and fine tune your documents before they're due next fall. And remember it's what your son has accomplished that counts the most, and he has done wonderfully! :001_smile:

[wapiti]

Are high schools in NZ called "colleges"?  see e.g. this news story:  http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/5019493/Jack-gains-scholarship-to-Princeton/

[lewelma]

Yes. High school=college.

 

I'd be curious if there have been any homeschoolers who have applied to elite universities in the USA from NZ. There are none in Wellington for the last eight to ten years, of that I'm sure. But Auckland? I might ask around.

[Kathy in Richmond]

MIT currently has 2 undergrads and 12 grad students from New Zealand:

 

International Students Office Statistics

 

No idea how you'd find out who they are, though!

 

I imagine that other colleges might have similar tables on their websites.

[lewelma]

We've seen those numbers and they make ds very nervous that MIT only admits two nzers a year typically.

[katilac]

 

 

 

Yikes!  Does this mean that you basically have to go for 4 full years.  (I'm thinking money here!!)

 

Yes, the majority of ultra selective universities will require 4 full years, because you will be starting with zero credits. You might be able to start in the higher level of a subject, but you will not get credit for the lower level. 

 

We've seen those numbers and they make ds very nervous that MIT only admits two nzers a year typically.

 

Going by the numbers, the admit rate is definitely lower for international students, but honestly, the admit rate hovers around 8% for all students, so it's a lottery school for everyone. 

 

There truly are some great STEM schools that aren't MIT or Caltech, though! You will want some backups. I can't remember, is he thinking straight math, engineering, does he have any idea? 

[JanetC]

Sadly, I have to agree that there is no chance to graduate early from schools like MIT. They will place him in appropriate classes, including graduate level, but there won't be transfer credits for classs taken while in high school.

 

At the next tier lower, there is probably a year's worth of early college credit allowed maximum.

 

Public universities would allow the most transfer credit if you really need to save money, but you are right the experience would not be the same.

[quark]

A really long shot but if you could also ask MIT for a contact from their Australians and New Zealanders club (they might still have one, I think they did a few years ago), that might help put you in touch with some students.

 

Good luck, Ruth. I too really think MIT will be a great fit for him. We are all rooting hard for him and you.

 

:grouphug:

[8filltheheart]

Yes, the cost can be prohibitive.  The only advantage to attending a lower tier university is the ability to transfer in credits and take grad level credits as an undergrad.  Ds is working alongside the post-docs with his professor.  Completely different atmosphere, but you can't beat the price. ;)

[lewelma]

So how do I find lower tier universities that offer merit aid to out-of-state residents but that also have a program worth ds attending? (DS is a dual citizen so most Universities don't count him as an international).  He would really only be interested in leaving NZ for university if the program is far superior to what we have here. Basically, ds can be a big fish in a small pond here, and I think he is ready to be a small fish and be surrounded by peers that can challenge him.  However, I would rather not pay the $$ if I can avoid it. ;)

Edited February 12, 2017 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

You could look into scholarships at schools like Ga Tech. Most are open to US citizens even if not residents. The scholarships are extremely competitive but his international competitions will definitely help him stand out. Ga Tech is also very open to transfer credit. They were willing to give my ds credit for all of his DE classes. He had to submit his syllabi from his classes and the individual depts reviewed them to determine whether or not they would grant equivalent credit and they did.

[Gwen in VA]

BTW, at least in the 80's it was possible to finish at MIT early. I transferred in and still took six semesters there only because I didn't want to graduate early (and my parents were willing to pay for the extra semester). The policies on AP classes and transfer credits may have changed significantly since then, but back in the day I did know a handful of motivated students with lots of AP credits who did graduate a semester early.

 

That said, I don't actually recommend graduating early. For financial reasons my brother graduated in three years from an Ivy, and he is still bitter about having to cram classes in and then leave all of his friends when they all had another year together. He wanted more time for classes, more time before he had to think about writing a thesis, more time for his singing group, and just more time on campus.

 

YMMV

 

 

[lewelma]

Kathy in Richmond, I tried to send you a PM but I think your box is full!!

[Kathy in Richmond]

Kathy in Richmond, I tried to send you a PM but I think your box is full!!

Oops!! Just cleared out some space!

[GoodGrief]

lewelma, my daughter is a current Princeton freshman, and had dual enrollment credits on her transcript, so don't stress about that part.

 

I don't know if there are any homeschooling New Zealanders there. I did meet one family from New Zealand, but did not ask his schooling method. :-) There are certainly a fair number of former homeschoolers at Princeton though, so it seems they are open to that.

 

Four years will be necessary, most likely. The aid at Princeton is exceptionally generous though, for citizens and internationals alike. It can be tough for international students to qualify for financial aid at many schools.

 

Good luck to your student! My most recent freshman took the "apply widely" approach. Having a backup plan or two is useful when there are so many uncertainties.