Most Rigorous Program Offered for HSing?

[cuckoomamma]

So when we talk about colleges wanting to see that your student took advantage of the most rigorous program that was offered, how do they judge a homeschooler?

 

Dd has been taking several AP classes freshman and sophomore year.  Are they expecting that each year we would need to either continue to teach these or outsource? 

 

Thanks!

 

[Julie of KY]

Personally, I think you have to judge the entire package. Are they taking rigorous courses? This might mean lots of APs, but it might simply mean good quality core classes. If your transcript is full of electives and minimal core classes then it is not a rigorous schedule. Beyond that I think you have to judge individually. A homeschooler may not be able to take a bunch of AP classes due to lack of teachers, lack of money to outsource, etc. They do expect in future years to take "solid" courses, but this can be accomplished in many ways other than AP.

 

My oldest was just admitted to a very competitive university. His transcript stood out showing his passion for math, though it didn't have a bunch of APs on it.

 

I actually emailed some admissions counselors asking about this as well as if I should label anything honors. They basically said a homeschooler was judged as if from a school of one so labeling something honors was pointless. Honors differentiates students when in a school with multiple levels taught. They gave similar advice about APs saying not everyone had access to AP classes so your transcript will be judged on it's own merit.

[8filltheheart]

I personally don't think that there is a simple answer to the question. It will depend on a lot of different factors--what schools are being applied to, what outside of academics is part of the student's application (equally necessary part of a competitive school application), test scores, etc. Different schools weigh different combinations of those factors differently. APs, DE, a combination of the 2 are just some options, but not the only ones.

 

Most of my older kids DE at local universities. My current college student took 2 APs (chem and cal BC) and then took numeours math and physics classes DE at our local university. Without doubt, his courseload was rigorous. My current sr has not taken any APs and is taking her first DE class this semester, stats. I know that her course rigor is equally every bit as challenging as her brother's. She opted not to outsource her courses in order to do in-depth analysis of fairy tales and Shakespeare, to study French and Russian with her tutors, to study history courses like communism in the 20th century and Russian history. The colleges and scholarship committees at the universities she targeted seem to agree that her transcript and activities demonstrated rigor. It isn't just a single path answer.

[daijobu]

Before you start loading up on AP's, I recommend reading Cal Newport's How to be a High School Superstar.  

[Connections]

I understand your question to be: Once you start defining "rigor" by having your student take several AP classes in 9th and 10th grade, will the colleges you apply to automatically look for those AP's in 11th and 12th grade? In other words, will the absence of those AP classes in later high school years send up a red flag. 

 

Is that correct? 

 

I have no answer (sorry). I am just framing the question based on my reading of your OP. 

 

I hope others can provide the guidance you are seeking. 

[cuckoomamma]

Exactly!

 

So, for example dd is taking AP Bio this year.  If she doesn't continue to take AP Chem and AP Physics does that seem like she's not continuing with the same rigor?  She'll always be taking all core classes, I just am curious if she has the option of not taking AP Physics (taking an Honors Physics at home or another Science) and taking AP Micro/Macro for example.  She is taking AP Lang this year.  Will they be looking for AP Lit?

 

Dd is a sophomore, doesn't know what she will major in, and would like to keep the Ivies in the mix.  We're both very aware of the lottery aspect, and I worry about her burning herself out with 4 years of math and science APs.  She has been doing very well, but Bio hasn't been her love.

 

 I'm  trying to think of this from a quality of life perspective.  She's looking at AP Chem, AP Calc, AP Lit or AP European for next year.  She's taking four APs this year, and she isn't able to enjoy them the way she'd like so decided on taking three for next year.  Hypothetically, what if she didn't take AP Chem or Calc and took three humanities APs? 

 

Forgot to mention that dd is reading the Newport book.  For the most part, she really enjoys taking her APs.  DE will cost us significantly more.  While it may be an option, we can't count on it.

Edited January 25, 2017 by cuckoomamma

[wapiti]

 I'm  trying to think of this from a quality of life perspective.  She's looking at AP Chem, AP Calc, AP Lit or AP European for next year.  She's taking four APs this year, and she isn't able to enjoy them the way she'd like so decided on taking three for next year.  Hypothetically, what if she didn't take AP Chem or Calc and took three humanities APs? 

 

Forgot to mention that dd is reading the Newport book.  For the most part, she really enjoys taking her APs.  DE will cost us significantly more.  While it may be an option, we can't count on it.

 

My own thinking out loud, not having BTDT yet:  how many APs (or DE) total would be necessary for tippy-top schools is still unclear to me, though for Ivies I'd probably want 6+ to meet some vague minimum bar for academic rigor.  One AP in each of math, English, social studies and science could serve validation purposes.  Beyond that, additional APs in any area could highlight her interests.

 

If Ivies and other tippy-top schools are a goal, I would include AP calc in some form, probably BC if at all possible (or, alternatively, DE calc).

 

(ETA, I tried ask a college counselor at my child's high school about what it takes for "most rigorous" and I was shut down before I could even get the question out.  A few kids get into tippy-top schools each year and several into top-30-ish, so I suppose they know what they're doing, but I wonder how much hair-splitting the counselors do over who has more APs or honors + APs... only APs are weighted.  At this time, I don't imagine that tippy-top schools will be on my student's list, but it's a little early to be sure.  I wonder whether the counselors have an incentive to lean toward the generous side when they check the rigor level box, though on the other hand, it would be easy to compare two students' schedules from the same school vs rigor level box.)

Edited January 25, 2017 by wapiti

[Arcadia]

(ETA, I tried ask a college counselor at my child's high school about what it takes for "most rigorous" and I was shut down before I could even get the question out. A few kids get into tippy-top schools each year and several into top-30-ish, so I suppose they know what they're doing, but I wonder how much hair-splitting the counselors do over who has more APs or honors + APs... only APs are weighted.)

I can't answer for homeschooling about what would be the most rigorous program. For B&M high schools, what I have been told is to try to get in 4 years of foreign language so if you take an AP exam in 9th or 10th for your heritage language, try to DE or take another language for the remaining high school years. For the math, try to do math every year which might mean DE most of the years. For science, it depends on the student's interest how high the level would be. So basically don't look like an applicant who did all the bare minimums to check the box.

My oldest might run out of math and science so private school counselors are willing to chat. My school district would just dump him in their middle college program where they do 10th/11th grade at the community college campus, and get an associate degree and high school diploma.

 

ETA:

Did you make an appointment to chat with the college counselor? My public high school has three per school and you need to make an appointment to chat with any of them.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Arcadia

[OnMyOwn]

Exactly!

 

So, for example dd is taking AP Bio this year. If she doesn't continue to take AP Chem and AP Physics does that seem like she's not continuing with the same rigor? She'll always be taking all core classes, I just am curious if she has the option of not taking AP Physics (taking an Honors Physics at home or another Science) and taking AP Micro/Macro for example. She is taking AP Lang this year. Will they be looking for AP Lit?

 

Dd is a sophomore, doesn't know what she will major in, and would like to keep the Ivies in the mix. We're both very aware of the lottery aspect, and I worry about her burning herself out with 4 years of math and science APs. She has been doing very well, but Bio hasn't been her love.

 

I'm trying to think of this from a quality of life perspective. She's looking at AP Chem, AP Calc, AP Lit or AP European for next year. She's taking four APs this year, and she isn't able to enjoy them the way she'd like so decided on taking three for next year. Hypothetically, what if she didn't take AP Chem or Calc and took three humanities APs?

 

Forgot to mention that dd is reading the Newport book. For the most part, she really enjoys taking her APs. DE will cost us significantly more. While it may be an option, we can't count on it.

I'm curious to hear what others say, but I wouldn't think that just because you took an AP science one year that all your sciences would need to be AP from then on. I know we're not going to do that. My plan is to have my dd take 2-3 APs a year and to hit a variety of subjects. So AP English and psych one year, AP calc and a language another and then AP science and something else, etc. I would think this would show academic ability and interest and also leave my dd time to enjoy what she's learning and have time to explore other areas of interest. At least that's how it's supposed to work in theory, lol. I'm not an expert, though. Right now, I'm reading the Newport book recommended above, hoping to glean the answers to finding a good balance myself.

[wapiti]

I can't answer for homeschooling about what would be the most rigorous program. For B&M high schools, what I have been told is to try to get in 4 years of foreign language so if you take an AP exam in 9th or 10th for your heritage language, try to DE or take another language for the remaining high school years. For the math, try to do math every year which might mean DE most of the years. For science, it depends on the student's interest how high the level would be. So basically don't look like an applicant who did all the bare minimums to check the box.

 

ETA:

Did you make an appointment to chat with the college counselor? My public high school has three per school and you need to make an appointment to chat with any of them.

 

No appt yet, that's next year (oldest is only in 10th), though we get a powerpoint presentation this spring.

 

We don't have a heritage language, but speaking of which, one of my kids wants to take Chinese for his high school foreign language, starting from scratch.  I can't think of any reason not to let him - if he were to take AP Chinese senior year, his score wouldn't be relevant to admissions.  (I realize that many heritage students take the AP exam.)  Am I thinking correctly?

 

ETA, ever curious, I'm looking for the common app counselor form online.  Are there any recent ones out there?  Does the current form differ substantially from this 2012 form? http://www.du.edu/apply/media/documents/2012CASSR.pdf  (Is this even the right form?)

Edited January 25, 2017 by wapiti

[daijobu]

Exactly!

 

So, for example dd is taking AP Bio this year.  If she doesn't continue to take AP Chem and AP Physics does that seem like she's not continuing with the same rigor?  She'll always be taking all core classes, I just am curious if she has the option of not taking AP Physics (taking an Honors Physics at home or another Science) and taking AP Micro/Macro for example.  She is taking AP Lang this year.  Will they be looking for AP Lit?

 

Dd is a sophomore, doesn't know what she will major in, and would like to keep the Ivies in the mix.  We're both very aware of the lottery aspect, and I worry about her burning herself out with 4 years of math and science APs.  She has been doing very well, but Bio hasn't been her love.

 

 I'm  trying to think of this from a quality of life perspective.  She's looking at AP Chem, AP Calc, AP Lit or AP European for next year.  She's taking four APs this year, and she isn't able to enjoy them the way she'd like so decided on taking three for next year.  Hypothetically, what if she didn't take AP Chem or Calc and took three humanities APs? 

 

Forgot to mention that dd is reading the Newport book.  For the most part, she really enjoys taking her APs.  DE will cost us significantly more.  While it may be an option, we can't count on it.

 

Hi:  My daughters also enjoy taking AP classes.  It sounds like your dd is taking AP bio this year, but perhaps has found out from taking the class that bio isn't a love.  That's okay.  She'll still come away with a great understanding of how the living world works, and that will serve her well in her adult life (not just college admissions).  

 

I'm also reading that while your daughter enjoys taking APs, you are worried that 4 APs keeps her spread too thin.  I agree with this.  My preference for my kids is they take no more than 2 APs per year, with one of them being an easy AP.  

 

Grade 8:  AP CS A, because it has a reputation for being easy, my kids already have programming experience (just not in Java) and so I figure it would a good first AP. 

Grade 9:  AP Chemistry.  A tough AP, and so one to take by itself, so dd can really immerse herself in all the information she's learning.

Grade 10: AP bio, a tough one, and AP stats, an easy one for my mathy girl.

Grade 11:  AP physics C and AP calc BC.  Two tougher ones, but since my dd is strong in math, we are betting that it's doable.

Grade 12: undecided, probably AP Lang and Comp.  Not a strength in this field, but she has a shot at a good score, which might give her the option of skipping some freshman comp class, but a poor grade probably won't affect admissions chances.   

Notice we are going heavy on the math science courses and light on the liberal arts, primarily to accommodate greater focus on the math science classes.  

 

As others have written, there are other ways to show rigor than by taking APs.  If your daughter has a deep interest in some field, and needs the extra time to pursue that interest, then taking a honors or regular level class in place of an AP is a good idea.  

[Arcadia]

No appt yet, that's next year (oldest is only in 10th), though we get a powerpoint presentation this spring.

 

We don't have a heritage language, but speaking of which, one of my kids wants to take Chinese for his high school foreign language, starting from scratch. I can't think of any reason not to let him - if he were to take AP Chinese senior year, his score wouldn't be relevant to admissions. (I realize that many heritage students take the AP exam.) Am I thinking correctly?

10th grade GPA is used for state universities GPA calculations so our college guidance counselor first meeting with assigned students occurs at around April/may of 8th grade.

 

The very unofficial advice I was given about AP Chinese is that heritage speakers tend to take it in 9th/10th so that the language other than English box is checked for state universities. Even if your son takes Chinese IV as a non-heritage speaker in 12th, nobody would think it is weird. Chinese IV is actually offered at some of the high schools we looked at.

 

Regarding the other question about rigor that you edited, it is mostly in the school profile. Below links are examples of three slightly different ones

http://www.mvhs.fuhsd.org/schoolprofile

http://gunn.pausd.org/sites/default/files/gunn.profile.20162017REVTKFinal.pdf

http://www.esuhsd.org/documents/A%20-%20Update%202012/School/School-Profile/Independence_2016_FINAL.pdf

 

Also the guidance counselor was saying that the students are suppose to meet with her regularly throughout their high school years so that she could craft the counselor letter to the student instead of giving a generic one. Each counselor would have preference on frequency of meetings of course and they have different student load. For example my local high school has 3 counselors for about 1,700 high school kids while the private schools we looked at has a 1 counselor to less than 40 students ratio. One of the private counselor was suggesting students drop by once per quarter to discuss about their plans.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Arcadia

[Arcadia]

ETA, ever curious, I'm looking for the common app counselor form online. Are there any recent ones out there? Does the current form differ substantially from this 2012 form? http://www.du.edu/apply/media/documents/2012CASSR.pdf (Is this even the right form?)

This is what I found regarding common app counselor letter

 

"Avoid mentioning specific colleges in your letters. The Common App Recommender System is a one-and-done process: you complete and submit a form once, and we make sure that form gets sent to all colleges to which your student applies. For this reason, while it might be tempting to discuss how well suited your student is for a particular college or university, it also means that every other school will read that recommendation. (This does not apply to counselors and teachers submitting through Naviance eDocs.)

...

PSAT scores are out, and you know what that means. We know: even before you put the senior class to bed, some juniors (and their parents) are eager to get started. Now, thanks to Account Rollover, they can. Applying to college is a senior year activity, but exploring the application is something your juniors can do today, with just a little direction from you and the training resources at Common App Ready." http://www.commonapp.org/whats-appening/college-counseling/four-tips-counselors-deadlines-approach

 

"Starting with the 2015-2016 application year, we are expanding the options for submitting counselor letters of recommendation.

...

Member colleges can choose to require or not require a counselor letter of recommendation.

...

The letter of recommendation will be removed from the School Report and incorporated into a new Counselor Recommendation form that will be submitted separately.

 

Counselors will always have the option to send a recommendation to a college.

 

The Common App Recommendation System will remain a one-and-done process. Once a counselor submits any school form–including the School Report and the new Counselor Recommendation–that form will be made available to the student’s college as soon as the student submits the application to that college." http://www.commonapp.org/whats-appening/application-updates/recommendation-requirement-changes

 

ETA:

Much more info here. Lots to read

https://www.commonapp.org/ready

Edited January 25, 2017 by Arcadia

[wapiti]

10th grade GPA is used for state universities GPA calculations so our college guidance counselor first meeting with assigned students occurs at around April/may of 8th grade.

 

The very unofficial advice I was given about AP Chinese is that heritage speakers tend to take it in 9th/10th so that the language other than English box is checked for state universities. Even if your son takes Chinese IV as a non-heritage speaker in 12th, nobody would think it is weird. Chinese IV is actually offered at some of the high schools we looked at.

 

Regarding the other question about rigor that you edited, it is mostly in the school profile.

 

Thanks about the Chinese - that's what I was thinking.

 

Our school's profile includes a list of all honors and AP classes and then a graphic showing weighted GPAs by grouping (e.g. how many kids 4.33 and above, how many kids 4.00 to 4.32, etc).  I haven't really been thinking in terms of weighting because my student has not taken any APs yet, though the top GPA group is less than maybe 7% of the class.  And, I wonder whether selective schools care about the weight - my impression is that they may unweight it and/or apply their own weight system anyway.

 

What I was a little disturbed by in that old form I linked isn't so much the "most demanding vs very demanding vs demanding" as the other box where it asks for impressions of to 1%, top 5%, etc. for academic and personal character (seems a little weird to me).  Since the school explicitly doesn't rank, I wonder whether they fill out that part of the form.

[cuckoomamma]

Yes, dd is taking AP Bio, APUSH, AP Stats and AP Lang this year in 10th.  She took APES, APHUG and AP Psych last year.  

 

Our feeling was that in order to preserve her application for a highly selective college, she should continue with AP Chem, AP Calc, and AP Euro or Lit in 11th.  If she could, she would love to take AP Micro/Macro, AP Comp Gov, or AP Art History next year.  However, she feels that they will make her look less rigorous in her junior year.  

 

As I mentioned, DE will be very difficult for us financially.  We may have that option senior year, but I doubt it will be in the cards for junior year.

 

Although I know comparing her to other schooled students is something to consider, right now I'm most concerned about how she will be viewed compared to her freshman and sophomore years.  She received 5s last year, and is doing very well in this year's APs.  She may very well end up enjoying Chem, but I think given the chance to spend more time on history, econ or art history she'd prefer that over Calc and Chem.  My feeling is that it really isn't an option?

[wapiti]

Just more thinking out loud, but my impression is that you would want calc if she is looking at tippy-tops.

 

However, at this point, are you racing against B&M students who have loads of APs or are you running your own race, i.e., are you using homeschooling to develop your student's "interesting-ness" in ways that are unique?  You already have a lot of APs.  Add calc and then only the ones that interest her and/or otherwise just happen to fill an important role in her education.  If she didn't take APs, what courses would she want to take?

 

ETA, looking at the list of APs again, some of them are the "lighter" APs (the ones from last year) and some of them are the "heavier" APs (the ones from this year).  Still, that is a lot of APs.

Edited January 25, 2017 by wapiti