Nm

[Lang Syne Boardie]

((((((Hugs)))))) please see about a new therapist. You need someone who can help you sort the layers and make a plan. I hope tonight gets better. It's midnight here, hope you're not up too late and can get some rest.

[Ailaena]

I may have said last time, but please, whatever you decide to do at this point, speak to her with love and respect. Her issues will compound everything further.

 

And take the weenie way out regarding the laundry: be honest. Tell her you're in a ton of pain right now and, sorry, you cannot keep up with the laundry. No need to get on her shit about being a spoiled, selfish child and risk a meltdown or a verbal attack when you have an honest ace.

 

Normally, I would agree with everything everyone else says about rent and negotiating and adults and so on, but I really get the feeling this relationship is different than many other people's relationships with their adult kids :grouphug:

Edited January 21, 2017 by Ailaena

[RioSamba]

I'm sorry things are so difficult. I remember your previous threads and some of the complexities involved. I think you need a deep breath for yourself, whatever that looks like in your world. A movie, prayer, a glass of wine, coffee with a friend, whatever calms you. Give yourself some oxygen and then think about which issues are really yours to solve, what boundaries you want to set, and how you can go forward. Hugs.

[Ausmumof3]

Are there some executive issues at play here?

[Catwoman]

MomInSuburbia, are you okay?

 

You suddenly deleted your posts and I'm hoping you are all right. :grouphug:

 

.

[OneStepAtATime]

Me too. I hope you are o.k. I think you are feeling really trapped right now. Huge hugs. So sorry.

[Plink]

Oh MiS, I'm sorry you felt so attacked that you needed to change name and delete your thoughts. I'm afraid we accidentally came across as piling on you, instead of supporting you.

 

Your daughter is in the wrong. That probably hasn't been said enough here. You are being taken advantage of, and that is hurtful.

 

Please don't take our suggestions as judgement - we just want to help you. Parenting is hard work.

[maize]

It's not just the bathroom! It's the fact that she refuses to do anything.

You can't change that; it's a basic reality of human interactions that we can't change someone else's behavior. You have very valid cause for frustration, but the only thing in your power is to determine your response to the situation.

 

Since you are in pain, you should not be cleaning bathrooms. Your dd is not willing to do it at this point and you cannot make her; that is why I have recommended you hire someone to do it. You need to take care of yourself.

 

As for your dd, you have the right and the ability to set limits. Many here are recommending a tough love approach. I would not recommend such an approach in this case with the aim of making her behave as a responsible adult only because there seems to be some degree of mental illness involved; a malfunctioning brain may not reason through cause and effect and consequences well enough to modify behavior appropriately in response to those kinds of motivators.

 

This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't establish whatever limits are necessary for your own welfare, whether that is dropping doing extra work such as laundry for her, giving her notice to leave your home, or whatever you deem necessary. You do not have to let yourself be abused and taken advantage of. Whatever you do though you are going to have to let go of any particular expectations of her. Right now, she either cannot or will not adjust her behavior to meet your expectations and there is nothing you can do to change that.

 

Many hugs.

Edited January 21, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

Agreements can absolutely be modified. And family should help.

Once upon a time, my brother in law moved in with us so that he could save money. He was 22. We were so happy to have him! We had a contract, simple though it was. He violated the contract repeatedly (spilled food all over the kitchen floor in anger and left without cleaning it up, refused to do even the simplest chores, including cooking, expected me to grocery shop for him, repeatedly made us late for work by taking hour long showers in our single bathroom, despite being asked repeatedly to shorten said showers or take them at other times, and many other things.).

 

We discussed the violations calmly and problem-solved with him for several months, and we worried, a lot, afraid that setting boundaries would ruin our relationship with him. But, it became apparent that he had no interest in holding up his end of the bargain.

 

So, we "modified" our agreement. We kicked him out (30 days notice). We didn't want to, but he wasn't developing into a responsible human by living with us and getting away with treating us like he did. And we wanted to still like him. :-) He was angry. He was livid. Eventually, he realized that we had played fair. He's grown up now (as defined by responsibility, not age) and spoils his nephews ridiculously. He comes to visit even though we live far away. He welcomes us to visit too. He's a good man, he just couldn't be allowed to stomp all over his family just because he didn't care to help.

 

Hugs. Boundaries are good for you and for your daughter, but it's so hard to see that when you are caught up in the game.

I have wondered before what this looks like when the relationship is already very low on respect and affection. Would you mind sharing? I don't have this situation and I hope I never do, but I have wondered before how you actually kick out an adult who is not behaving in a pro-social way. Do you physically eject their belongings to the lawn? Change the locks? Or does the discussion just make them realize that, unhappy though they may be, they must find another place to live?

 

I do know of a situation where the adult being ejected took her own life. :(

[OneStepAtATime]

You can't change that; it's a basic reality of human interactions that we can't change someone else's behavior. You have very valid cause for frustration, but the only thing in your power is to determine your response to the situation.

 

Since you are in pain, you should not be cleaning bathrooms. Your dd is not willing to do it at this point and you cannot make her; that is why I have recommended you hire someone to do it. You need to take care of yourself.

 

As for your dd, you have the right and the ability to set limits. Many here are recommending a tough love approach. I would not recommend such an approach in this case with the aim of making her behave as a responsible adult only because there seems to be some degree of mental illness involved; a malfunctioning brain may not reason through cause and effect and consequences well enough to modify behavior appropriately in response to those kinds of motivators.

 

This doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't establish whatever limits are necessary for your own welfare, whether that is dropping doing extra work such as laundry for her, giving her notice to leave your home, or whatever you deem necessary. You do not have to let yourself be abused and taken advantage of. Whatever you do though you are going to have to let go of any particular expectations of her. Right now, she either cannot or will not adjust her behavior to meet your expectations and there is nothing you can do to change that.

 

Many hugs.

I agree with Maize. 100%.

[Xahm]

This is just in response to this question, not the op. If you are going to evict someone, you have to do it legally. In our state, and many others I'm sure, that means that if you just change the locks or throw out their stuff, you may find yourself in jail even if the person was paying no rent, being terrible, whatever. Generally speaking, give notice in writing that they will need to be out by a certain date. On that date, you can go to a judge and start eviction proceedings. The sheriff can take stuff and dump it on the curb; you should not. Be prepared for it to take a long time and some money. Therefore, think carefully about allowing anyone to move in, and always have a written contract.

I have wondered before what this looks like when the relationship is already very low on respect and affection. Would you mind sharing? I don't have this situation and I hope I never do, but I have wondered before how you actually kick out an adult who is not behaving in a pro-social way. Do you physically eject their belongings to the lawn? Change the locks? Or does the discussion just make them realize that, unhappy though they may be, they must find another place to live?

 

I do know of a situation where the adult being ejected took her own life. :(

[bolt.]

She is not a boarder. She is a member of our family. She does not pay rent. (A one year agreement we made to help her get on her feet financially). As such she should be willing to contribute. I've never heard of members of a family not contributing. This is just a somewhat recent problem. I have two other adult children (one is away at college) but they contribute. I think that is the norm. As she has a full time job I don't expect her to contribute as much as she did before. Why should everyone else be expected to take care of the house and not her? She doesn't do anything. As far as the bathroom I cannot physically bend down and clean the tub as it causes me a lot of pain. She shares the bathroom with her brother who has other responsibilities around the home so it's unreasonable for him to have to clean it. It is reasonable for him to not have to deal with the constant mess. We are not renting her a room and bathroom. She shares with the family.

She is a boarder. You have agreed (for your own reasons) to provide her with room and board.

 

Being a member of your extended family does not mean she is not a boarder. You are free to offer room and board to all sorts of people. Lots of people have boarders who are family members.

 

She does not pay rent because you offered to provide free room and board. Changing the price doesn't change her status.

 

If you think she "should" be "willing" to "contribute" you are making and ethical statement. You are deciding that she must share in a relationship of mutuality against her wishes. You are openly stating the opinion that her decision to not agree with you is a violation against you.

 

As a boarder she should be required to live within the boundaries of her living situation. If she does not, the limitations of her situation should become real to her in practical terms. This is not a "contribution" and there is no "should" about it.

 

If you want to house-share with adults you can't rely on the goodness of their hearts, the flexibility of their schedules, and the reliability of their decision making to see that happen. "Contribution and co-operation" combined with "gee it's awful that she isn't willing" is a model that will fill your home with anger, shame and resentment.

 

There are other ways to influence her towards required housework without making it about "should" and "contribution".

 

You can't "expect her to contribute" for simple logical reasons: You own one body... Yours. Her her decisions, her values about fair play and co-operation, her time management and good judgement -- those things are simply beyond your territory. The expectation is irrational.

 

A model with actual limits and sunny firmness, free-from-blame will actually work. The work will get done. I'd lay money that she won't tollerate the bathroom objects and trash bag on her bed for more that 3 days in a row without doing something. Try it and see. She will ask you, 'What the heck?' and you will say, 'I'm concerned about the state of the bathroom. If you clean it once every 14 days, I'll stop clearing it daily. Until then, this is the best I can do.' She will shout, and you will say, 'Yes, I'd rather leave your stuff alone too. I hope you can work it out. Have a good day.'

 

You just feel really stuck in "gee it's awful that she isn't willing" and it's turning a practical problem into the kind of emotional storm that will wreak havoc. Drop that *entire perspective* and you will find yourself with a much smaller problem.

 

If you can't bend to clean the tub, I imagine the length of the handle of the tool you choose could be relevant. Try a sponge mop. Or try (allegedly) scrub-free cleaning chemicals. You aren't trying to make it sparkle -- 'not gross' will be a fine goal. (Which is why 5 minutes twice a month will do the trick, even if most people like their spaces cleaner than that.)

 

The reason you need to find a way to get it cleaned (by whatever method) is because you agreed to give your son room and board with a shared-arrangement bathroom, then delegated that bathroom task in a way that isn't working. Making it work is your responsibility even if it's not fair.

 

Your choices about boarders got you into a bit of a bathroom pickle, which is irritating, but not insurmountable. I'm confident a different approach to your daughter will shift things for your son in the bathroom to 'at least sanitarty' within a few weeks. I'm only suggesting a stop-gap for the meantime.

[Only me]

I created a social group. I felt it was better that way-more privacy and I won't constantly be bringing up this topic. Please message me if you are interested in joining.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[BooksandBoys]

I have wondered before what this looks like when the relationship is already very low on respect and affection. Would you mind sharing? I don't have this situation and I hope I never do, but I have wondered before how you actually kick out an adult who is not behaving in a pro-social way. Do you physically eject their belongings to the lawn? Change the locks? Or does the discussion just make them realize that, unhappy though they may be, they must find another place to live?

 

I do know of a situation where the adult being ejected took her own life. :(

Thankfully, we did not have to go through a formal eviction process, but we would have if it had been necessary. We did fear that he would refuse to move, so we had evaluated our legal options before making the final decision to ask him to leave. In our situation, we had been talking about his refusal to comply with our contract for several months before asking him to move out (and in the two months before asking him to leave, specifically telling him that we would have to ask him to move out if these behaviors (and there were many) continued). So, our dissatisfaction did not come as a surprise. Our asking him to leave did not come as a surprise. For that matter, having problems with him didn't come as a surprise either, as he had lived with us before for a short time. We had learned a lot from that short live-in, which helped us develop the contract that he signed. Anyway, the rambling point I'm making is that, though we gave 30-days notice, it was not a surprise to him, other than the surprise that came with finally having a family member follow through with a threat. :-)  He was very angry, and this made the last month very challenging (many more difficult behaviors), but he did move without being forced legally.

 

Because of significant executive function issues, asking him to move out included ME helping him find a place to live. We wanted the best for him, and so we helped. We even offered to help him pay his rent (higher than what he was paying us) for a few months to get him on his feet. He did refuse that. We helped with all aspects of the move, including finding the truck. We loaned furniture. It was worth it to me to lose some money in this venture so that we could show that we loved him even if we couldn't live with him.

 

I am so sorry for the loss of a life in one of these situations. I'm so thankful that we did not feel we had to worry about that.  

[BooksandBoys]

OP, I'm sorry you felt attacked and afraid. I definitely understand feeling like you are oversharing, but that, simultaneously, this is the only place you have available to talk about what you are dealing with. 

I hope you can get some support from a therapist. 

[maize]

 

I didn't realize parenting an adult was so hard but it's even harder under the circumstances.

 

 

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

Interacting with a person with mental health struggles is also just really, really hard. The normal rules of relationship can go out the window when they are not capable of full reciprocation or of feeling empathy.

 

I've lived with an adult who suffers from mental illness for fifteen years. He's doing better now than at any other point in our marriage because of good medication and therapy treatment, but it has been a long, hard slog to get to this point and there are no guarantees that the positive improvements will hold over the long term. In my dh's case, holding down a full time job really has taken pretty much everything he has to give; 90% of the time he gets up in the morning, goes to work, comes home and sleeps. Help with the household and the children is out of the question, emotional support for me is not happening. He will be irritable and irrationally accusatory towards me. As I said, things are better at the moment but that has been the reality of our life for most of the past 15 years.

 

And yet the man that I know and love is still there, the changes that affect his personality when his brain is not functioning properly are never more than temporary glitches. Underneath he is still a caring, compassionate person and that reality combined with his willingness to fight the illness and take advantage of medical and counseling resources is what has made the relationship work.

Edited January 21, 2017 by maize

[Guest]

Thankfully, we did not have to go through a formal eviction process, but we would have if it had been necessary. We did fear that he would refuse to move, so we had evaluated our legal options before making the final decision to ask him to leave. In our situation, we had been talking about his refusal to comply with our contract for several months before asking him to move out (and in the two months before asking him to leave, specifically telling him that we would have to ask him to move out if these behaviors (and there were many) continued). So, our dissatisfaction did not come as a surprise. Our asking him to leave did not come as a surprise. For that matter, having problems with him didn't come as a surprise either, as he had lived with us before for a short time. We had learned a lot from that short live-in, which helped us develop the contract that he signed. Anyway, the rambling point I'm making is that, though we gave 30-days notice, it was not a surprise to him, other than the surprise that came with finally having a family member follow through with a threat. :-) He was very angry, and this made the last month very challenging (many more difficult behaviors), but he did move without being forced legally.

 

Because of significant executive function issues, asking him to move out included ME helping him find a place to live. We wanted the best for him, and so we helped. We even offered to help him pay his rent (higher than what he was paying us) for a few months to get him on his feet. He did refuse that. We helped with all aspects of the move, including finding the truck. We loaned furniture. It was worth it to me to lose some money in this venture so that we could show that we loved him even if we couldn't live with him.

 

I am so sorry for the loss of a life in one of these situations. I'm so thankful that we did not feel we had to worry about that.

What a sad situation. You went far above the call of duty. You're good people.

[maize]

I do know of a situation where the adult being ejected took her own life. :(

Sometimes there just is no good solution.

 

A friend of mine moved out with her children because her boyfriend was mentally unstable and abusive. When he later committed suicide his family blamed her for having moved out, but truthfully when a person with mental health difficulties is not stable and is negatively affecting the lives of others in the household separation can be the only decent option for those people.

 

We need to work towards better social and medical support for mental illness, erase the associated stigma, talk openly about the realities, and have more options for both people who are suffering and for their families.

[TammyS]

Im sorry I deleted it. I know some were really trying to help. Right after I posted dd had a panic attack. She has been doing much better and it hasn't been an issue for awhile. I was afraid she found this. I'm not sure if she did or not but I realized I really need to stop sharing so much. She doesn't have access to my account but she knows I've been on this board for years. After talking to her I think it was due to something else but it still made me feel awful . It's hard because sometimes this is my only outlet.

 

It's s complicated situation because it's not the way I would usually interact with someone her age I never know with her what is her real personality and what is due to her problems. I feel trapped because she will walk all over us (mostly me but others too). Then when she is having problems I feel awful and like I have to treat her with kid gloves. I still think certain expectations are reasonable with her and it's not fair to add everything she doesn't do onto my son's plate.

 

Unfortunately I have so much going on right now in my life and no support that I do tend to feel attacked easily. Again I know most of you were trying to help and I didn't share specifics why her situation is a bit different. A few responses really threw me off and I felt like I really had to leave. I think I need to stop posting for awhile.

 

I really think things wiil be better once she moves out. I will miss her a lot but I think it will be better for our relationship in the long run as long as she doesn't completely cut me out of her life.

 

I didn't realize parenting an adult was so hard but it's even harder under the circumstances.

 

I'm going to start seeing another therapist to work through some of this. Like I said unfortunately there is a lot more going on. I'm just trying to fight the biggest fire at any given time.

 

If she had a panic attack because she went snooping into your stuff, that is her problem, not yours.  Why are you taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions? 

 

You said, "I didn't realize parenting an adult was so hard....".  Stop parenting her!  She is 24 years old!  Treat her like an adult - because she IS an adult.

 

I get that you feel attacked, but if you can put that aside for a moment, I think what you need to realize is that your misery over this situation is entirely self inflicted.  You are miserable because you think that you can change her mind and therefore change her behavior.  You can't. It IS NOT possible.  You will never reason with her.  If she was reasonable a 1 minute conversation about the bathroom would have done the trick. All you can do is change YOUR OWN reality.

 

This is a self inflicted misery.  Stop trying to change your daughter.  Change what YOU do instead.

 

 

[maize]

If she had a panic attack because she went snooping into your stuff, that is her problem, not yours. Why are you taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions?

 

You said, "I didn't realize parenting an adult was so hard....". Stop parenting her! She is 24 years old! Treat her like an adult - because she IS an adult.

 

I get that you feel attacked, but if you can put that aside for a moment, I think what you need to realize is that your misery over this situation is entirely self inflicted. You are miserable because you think that you can change her mind and therefore change her behavior. You can't. It IS NOT possible. You will never reason with her. If she was reasonable a 1 minute conversation about the bathroom would have done the trick. All you can do is change YOUR OWN reality.

 

This is a self inflicted misery. Stop trying to change your daughter. Change what YOU do instead.

 

 

While I agree with much of this, I would be careful not to discount the real pain that comes from loving a person who has lost the ability to reciprocate love and compassion. That hurts almost more than anything else we humans can experience. Our need for connection and relationship is very, very real, and a parent who has spent the lifetime of a child loving and giving cannot help being profoundly hurt when that child, for whatever reason, turns callous and rejecting.

[Catwoman]

She is a boarder. You have agreed (for your own reasons) to provide her with room and board.

 

Being a member of your extended family does not mean she is not a boarder. You are free to offer room and board to all sorts of people. Lots of people have boarders who are family members.

 

She does not pay rent because you offered to provide free room and board. Changing the price doesn't change her status.

 

If you think she "should" be "willing" to "contribute" you are making and ethical statement. You are deciding that she must share in a relationship of mutuality against her wishes. You are openly stating the opinion that her decision to not agree with you is a violation against you.

 

As a boarder she should be required to live within the boundaries of her living situation. If she does not, the limitations of her situation should become real to her in practical terms. This is not a "contribution" and there is no "should" about it.

 

If you want to house-share with adults you can't rely on the goodness of their hearts, the flexibility of their schedules, and the reliability of their decision making to see that happen. "Contribution and co-operation" combined with "gee it's awful that she isn't willing" is a model that will fill your home with anger, shame and resentment.

 

There are other ways to influence her towards required housework without making it about "should" and "contribution".

 

You can't "expect her to contribute" for simple logical reasons: You own one body... Yours. Her her decisions, her values about fair play and co-operation, her time management and good judgement -- those things are simply beyond your territory. The expectation is irrational.

 

A model with actual limits and sunny firmness, free-from-blame will actually work. The work will get done. I'd lay money that she won't tollerate the bathroom objects and trash bag on her bed for more that 3 days in a row without doing something. Try it and see. She will ask you, 'What the heck?' and you will say, 'I'm concerned about the state of the bathroom. If you clean it once every 14 days, I'll stop clearing it daily. Until then, this is the best I can do.' She will shout, and you will say, 'Yes, I'd rather leave your stuff alone too. I hope you can work it out. Have a good day.'

 

You just feel really stuck in "gee it's awful that she isn't willing" and it's turning a practical problem into the kind of emotional storm that will wreak havoc. Drop that *entire perspective* and you will find yourself with a much smaller problem.

 

If you can't bend to clean the tub, I imagine the length of the handle of the tool you choose could be relevant. Try a sponge mop. Or try (allegedly) scrub-free cleaning chemicals. You aren't trying to make it sparkle -- 'not gross' will be a fine goal. (Which is why 5 minutes twice a month will do the trick, even if most people like their spaces cleaner than that.)

 

The reason you need to find a way to get it cleaned (by whatever method) is because you agreed to give your son room and board with a shared-arrangement bathroom, then delegated that bathroom task in a way that isn't working. Making it work is your responsibility even if it's not fair.

 

Your choices about boarders got you into a bit of a bathroom pickle, which is irritating, but not insurmountable. I'm confident a different approach to your daughter will shift things for your son in the bathroom to 'at least sanitarty' within a few weeks. I'm only suggesting a stop-gap for the meantime.

I have to disagree with a bit of your terminology here, bolt.

 

The dd is a "daughter," not a "boarder."

 

She is not "extended family;" she is "immediate family."

 

I think your choice of terms may be making the OP feel defensive, rather than realizing that you have the best intentions (and I know you do.)

[Catwoman]

If she had a panic attack because she went snooping into your stuff, that is her problem, not yours. Why are you taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions?

 

You said, "I didn't realize parenting an adult was so hard....". Stop parenting her! She is 24 years old! Treat her like an adult - because she IS an adult.

 

I get that you feel attacked, but if you can put that aside for a moment, I think what you need to realize is that your misery over this situation is entirely self inflicted. You are miserable because you think that you can change her mind and therefore change her behavior. You can't. It IS NOT possible. You will never reason with her. If she was reasonable a 1 minute conversation about the bathroom would have done the trick. All you can do is change YOUR OWN reality.

 

This is a self inflicted misery. Stop trying to change your daughter. Change what YOU do instead.

 

 

I agree that the OP's misery is essentially self-inflicted because she is allowing her dd to both blackmail and take advantage of her, but I can also understand why she feels as though she is stuck between a rock and a hard place.

 

My ds is still in high school and thankfully he has no mental health issues, so I won't claim to have any experience with adult children like the OP's dd, but I will always be his mom and I will always worry about him and want to protect him from harm -- and that's what I'm seeing in the OP's post. I'm seeing a concerned mom who is worried about her dd's mental health issues and who is also feeling helpless because she believes her dd is making some poor life decisions. She's doing everything she can to preserve her relationship with her dd, and I can understand that. She is upset about the bathroom and laundry situations, but she's not prepared to make them a hill to die on because of the other things going on with her dd which she considers to be more important.

 

I feel so sorry for her. I sympathize with her worries and concerns, and I feel sad that she is in so much physical pain. While I realize that a little tough love may be warranted in the average situation with an adult child living at home, I don't know if that is the case here. I honestly don't know how to advise the OP because she has said repeatedly that there is more to the story that she isn't comfortable sharing with us.

 

I think the OP has gotten some excellent advice in this thread and I hope she is able to implement some of the suggestions, or at least realize that she has options.

 

One thing I'm wondering, and I may have missed it in an earlier post, but is there a dh living in the OP's home? If so, I'm not sure why he isn't pitching in to help with things like cleaning the bathroom and helping out with laundry. I know it "should" be the dd's responsibility, but if she's not stepping up to the plate and doing her share and trying to force her to do it is too stressful for the OP, I think her dh should help with some of the housework until a better solution can be found, mainly because of the OP's constant physical pain.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Catwoman

[Only me]

Nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[Twigs]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Bolt, just so you know, the legal definition of "boarder" is not the same from country to country, or even from state to state within the US. In most locations in the United States, a first degree family member who does not pay rent is not a boarder. And most American families do not consider people they have birthed and/or raised to be random adults with whom they house share.

 

Not that I think that rabbit trail or viewpoint is helping the OP anyway.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Tibbie Dunbar

[Guest]

OP,

First of all, hugs to you because this does sound complicated and it is worse when there is no IRL support to help you.

 

Second, I don't think a 24yo living at home is an unusual situation at all. It is part of why the ACA changed it to 26yo for a child to stay on parent's coverage. Many adult kids that age are not yet living fully independantly.

 

I do feel that all people living in the home should contribute to the household running smoothly and, no, it is IMO not "normal" for a person living under your roof to actually believe they have no obligation to be neat, be useful, and spend their own money on some things. As you said, your other children understood the normal rules of living normally in a household, but it doesn't sound like your DD does grasp that. That does seem to speak to disordered thinking and not simply "being spoiled." However, I am also one who would not do her laundry or smooth the way for her. But I can see how it is hard because she isn't behaving in a normally pro-social way, and that cannot be entirely a result of "spoiling" because your other children are/were not "spoiled."

[Only me]

Bolt, just so you know, the legal definition of "boarder" is not the same from country to country, or even from state to state within the US. In most locations in the United States, a first degree family member who does not pay rent is not a boarder. And most American families do not consider people they have birthed to be random adults with whom they house share.

 

Not that I think that rabbit trail or viewpoint is helping the OP anyway.

Yes this has me very confused. I could never think of my daughter as a boarder.

[maize]

What kind of help is your daughter accessing for her mental health struggles? Is she on medication? Meeting regularly with a therapist? Did we discuss in a previous thread you contacting her doctor/therapist to share concerning behavioral and personality changes you are seeing?

 

While your daughter is still the same person, if neurons are not communicating properly and consistently in her brain she may simply not be capable of relating to you or to the world in general the way you expect. I share pretty openly on here about my husband's struggles because mental illness is still so poorly understood and so little talked about in the population in general, and yet it will directly or indirectly affect most people at some point. We need to understand it as an illness, a malfunction in the brain, and not a question of a person's character, morality, or refusal to make good decisions.

 

At the same time those of us navigating a relationship with a person affected by such an illness have to maintain perspective and not get pulled into trying to interact with the illness in non productive ways. Right now, allowing yourself to stress over what your dd should be doing in your home and her lack of responsibility, empathy and compassion towards you is non productive. Those behaviors may not be within her control; they are certainly not within yours. Things you can do include continuing to maintain a compassionate attitude towards her, encouraging her to seek professional help, and setting whatever limits are necessary to maintain your own mental, emotional, and physical welfare.

Edited January 21, 2017 by maize

[maize]

You could talk with your own therapist about any feelings of inadequacy or shame your are dealing with regarding your health issues and inability to work outside the home as you had envisaged. Chronic pain is both physically and mentally exhausting and debilitating.

[PeachyDoodle]

Don't want to quote in case you need to delete again.

 

You mentioned that you are having a hard time determining what is normal behavior from what is "spoiled" and what is a result of her illness. I assume she's under the care of a professional for her mental health struggles, and I know you said you are looking for a new therapist for yourself. I think those are both good things. Do you have any contact with your dd's doctor/therapist? While he or she can't discuss your adult dd's treatment, perhaps it would be wise to make an appointment to discuss YOUR response to dd's illness. If you haven't already done so, you can ask at that time what is reasonable to expect your dd to contribute at this stage of her treatment and what is not. It might help you gain clarity on the line between assisting and enabling.

 

I can understand how difficult it must be to know how far to go in either direction, and of course you want to do what is best for dd, while also taking care of your own health needs. You are a great mom, that much is clear.

 

It sounds like your other children are wonderful, caring young people, and I know you also want to protect them. But they are adults as well. Have you discussed dd's illness and your own one-on-one with them (especially ds, as he seems to be at home full time)? I'm sure they want the best for their sister too (and for you), and it will help if you can all cultivate an attitude of being in this together. I know it isn't "fair" that they have to suffer some of the consequences of dd's illness, but families take care of each other, especially when someone is in need of help. Your dd is sick, and you are sick as well. I'm willing to bet that, if ds understands that he is helping his mom and his sister to care for themselves and get well by suffering through sub-par housekeeping and maybe even contributing a little more than his "fair share" from time to time (not that I would require this, or even ask it), he will do so gladly.

 

ETA: Apparently I forgot how to use prepositions.

Edited January 21, 2017 by PeachyDoodle

[Arctic Bunny]

I think that far from being alone (and the user name of Only me really tugs at my heart), negotiating adult children living at home is becoming a very common situation, and there aren't any hard and fast rules out there for success. Even if there were, I'm sure it would be just like baby books; many approaches, many differing results.

[Only me]

Nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[QueenCat]

Hugs to you......... Gently, I know it's not easy but if you let her issues be the reason to not force things, you are enabling her. I say this from experience, not judgement. It might need to be what happens in order for her to move forward. You are worried she'll live and not talk to you, cut you out. She might but it's not likely to be forever. It will hurt but if you don't push her during that time, she is likely to come back to you (not to live, but to a relationship).

[Carol in Cal.]

 

 

 

Yes my dh lives a home but is not involved at all. He has always had the attitude that since he is working full time that everything else is my responsibility even the kids. I have worked part time on and off when the kids were younger. At one point I was working 25 hours a week, homeschooling 3 kids, driving them to numerous activities and doing all the housework, shopping etc. Since I wasn't making the most money I didn't have as much worth. I intended to go back to work when my youngest started high school but that's when my medical problems began. Since I don't bring in an income I need to do everything else regardless of the pain. That's a whole other story I guess. Maybe if I'm honest with myself maybe that's part of what really hurts. My dd doesn't see my worth since I'm not working. "I sit at home all day and don't do anything". Not true but that's the attitude I get. I still feel dd should help but maybe if I wasn't in so much darn pain it wouldn't matter as much.

So basically she is taking the same attitude as your husband.  That makes it feel more 'normal' to her, I'm sure, but it's not.  Ugh.

[Alessandra]

Op, many, many hugs. I have not been in your situation, but I am used to special needs kids. Sometimes the best, most rational advice that has worked for countless 'typical' kids simply does not apply to a 'special' situation.

 

Please know that even those of us who have no advice are thinking of you and wish you well.

[maize]

Ugh, it sounds like her therapist really flubbed things. I am sorry you dealt with someone who was so unprofessional.

[Seasider]

I honestly came on here because sometimes I never know what is right or wrong-what is normal. I have no one else to think she should contribute at all but I was asking for opinions.

 

Yes my dh lives a home but is not involved at all. He has always had the attitude that since he is working full time that everything else is my responsibility even the kids. I have worked part time on and off when the kids were younger. At one point I was working 25 hours a week, homeschooling 3 kids, driving them to numerous activities and doing all the housework, shopping etc. Since I wasn't making the most money I didn't have as much worth. I intended to go back to work when my youngest started high school but that's when my medical problems began. Since I don't bring in an income I need to do everything else regardless of the pain. That's a whole other story I guess. Maybe if I'm honest with myself maybe that's part of what really hurts. My dd doesn't see my worth since I'm not working. "I sit at home all day and don't do anything". Not true but that's the attitude I get. I still feel dd should help but maybe if I wasn't in so much darn pain it wouldn't matter as much.

First, this forum is a good place to seek validation! You are not wrong for feeling the way you do! But I believe you do need more than just our opinions to develop a successful, reasonable strategy for navigating your current situation.

 

You seem to wonder where your dd gets her attitude about not contributing because she now works full time. The above suggests that she was trained by her father to think this way. Gently, your dh appears to have not treated you well in this regard. I wonder if what you really need to do is back up to some marital counseling. I am just sad for you that your true value is grossly under appreciated.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Seasider

[Catwoman]

So basically she is taking the same attitude as your husband. That makes it feel more 'normal' to her, I'm sure, but it's not. Ugh.

It seems as though dd has learned from her father's example. :(

 

That certainly explains her attitude, as well as lets us know where she got the idea in her head that if she's working full time, she shouldn't have to do anything to help out around the house.

 

Looks like the OP may have made her biggest mistake many years ago when she started letting her dh get away with doing nothing to help her.

 

Frankly, it's starting to look like he may be the bigger problem here, because he has set a very poor example for the children, and worse than that, he isn't showing the level of caring and concern for the OP that I know I personally would expect from my own dh.

 

She is in pain. He should be pitching in to help her.

 

I'm not excusing the dd, but her behavior makes more sense to me than it was when I read the earlier posts to this thread. (I'm not excusing her lack of compassion toward her mom, though!)

 

And I'm not blaming the OP -- she seems like a kind and generous person who is doing everything she can to take good care of her family, despite her own personal hardships.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Catwoman

[OneStepAtATime]

Maybe I should had said being a parent to an adult is harder than I thought instead of using the verb parenting. . Just because they turn 18 doesn't mean you stop caring for them. My other two are doing fine being an adult. The situation is entirely different with this one. Maybe when you've dealt with your child (they will always be your child no matter how old they are) talking about suicide you will realize that yes you still need to be involved or at least want to.

 

I deleted my other post for fear she read it but you are right if she is snooping and looking through my posts then I guess it is her fault. Her panic attack turned out to be something else.

 

I honestly came on here because sometimes I never know what is right or wrong-what is normal. I have no one else to talk to. Yes things are more complicated with us but I just came in here to see if anyone was in the same situation. I've always felt that as a member of the household that you help out. I can't imagine I'm the only one who would expect that. I guess I'm also trying to figure out if she is truly being rude to us or if it's part of her illness. She says she doesn't think she should have to contribute but I'm wondering if it's due to her truly being overwhelmed or she is just spoiled. I don't understand people who don't think she should contribute at all but I was asking for opinions. Most 24 year olds aren't living at home but that was mostly due to circumstances she created. So it may seem strange expecting things out of a 24 year old but regardless she is staying at our house, eating our food, etc. I feel she should make some kind of effort to help out in some way.

 

We've been close most of her life. We've had some difficult times-some just normal every day stuff and some due to not knowing how to handle what she is going through.

 

She has changed so much in the past year. She used to be the most loving, caring person and now there are many times she could care less. Not just about me but her sister who she has been super close with. She is moving in June and has made it clear that is all she cares about. In her mind most of the time she isn't present. We don't matter to her anymore.

 

 

The panic attack turned out to be about work. She actually had a conversation with me this morning. This morning she is actually acting nice to me. All week she has been rude to me for no reason. I never know which person I'm going to face. It's hard feeling like you are a doormat but are afraid to speak up for fear it will set her off.

 

Yes my dh lives a home but is not involved at all. He has always had the attitude that since he is working full time that everything else is my responsibility even the kids. I have worked part time on and off when the kids were younger. At one point I was working 25 hours a week, homeschooling 3 kids, driving them to numerous activities and doing all the housework, shopping etc. Since I wasn't making the most money I didn't have as much worth. I intended to go back to work when my youngest started high school but that's when my medical problems began. Since I don't bring in an income I need to do everything else regardless of the pain. That's a whole other story I guess. Maybe if I'm honest with myself maybe that's part of what really hurts. My dd doesn't see my worth since I'm not working. "I sit at home all day and don't do anything". Not true but that's the attitude I get. I still feel dd should help but maybe if I wasn't in so much darn pain it wouldn't matter as much.

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug: 

 

OP, I would suggest that you consider starting a private chat group.  Invite anyone from the boards that you want.  You can put the privacy setting to a level where nothing you or anyone in your group posts can be searched on this board or through an outside browser.  There are other parents in similar circumstances who have posted upon occasion.  Having a private community in which to discuss these things without risk of family/friends finding those posts might help you and others to feel more comfortable and provide you all with the emotional support you need.  FWIW, I am a member of several private groups, each having its own reason for existence, and it has been wonderful to have that private source of support/friendship/sharing in both good and bad times.

 

Hit the Social Group tab at the top.  Hit the Start New Group button.  Then start the group.  There should be a walk through on how to set all the settings to super private mode.  You could post here with a link or you could simply send PMs to people asking if they want to join.  If they do, you send a private invitation, they accept and they are in.

 

FWIW, your DD may have stopped acting like she cares because of depression.  Sometimes caring takes too much energy and is too painful to handle.  Sometimes it is easier to just shut down, act like nothing matters.  But that doesn't mean that she should be allowed to tromp all over your own self esteem nor does it mean that you should continue to do every single thing for her.  That isn't helping either one of you.  

 

As a poster up thread mentioned, treat her with love but set boundaries, for both your sakes.  

 

Should all members of a household contribute in some way to help out around the house?  Yes.  I think nearly everyone on here agrees under normal circumstances that makes sense.  I don't think anyone is saying she shouldn't contribute to the running of the household (except maybe one or two posters).  I think what a lot of people are saying is that you cannot MAKE her clean the bathroom.  She is passive aggressively refusing and has been for months.  She is possibly mimicking your DH's idea that someone working outside the household has no responsibilities within the household or possibly feeling overwhelmed and fighting daily to cope with mental health issues or it could be a lot of reasons.  The bottom line is she is refusing.  Not sure how you effectively combat that since your DH is not backing you up and your daughter is an adult.  She is 24 years old.  The only way to MAKE her is if you have something you can hold over her.  Given the tentative nature of the situation I don't know that you actually have anything you can use.

 

So now you have to look at this from another direction.  If you cannot make her clean the bathroom then in all likelihood, much as probably all of you wish it were otherwise, she is never going to clean the bathroom.  At least not at this stage of the game.  Stressing over it, complaining about it and letting it be something that sits and festers and hurts all of you nets no one anything good.  Deal with things you CAN control.  

 

For instance, you CAN control whether you do her laundry or not.  Explain in a calm but firm way that you are no longer doing laundry.  Explain that it is painful and you already have full time duties.  Make it clear that you love her but she has to take care of her own clothes from now on out.   Offer to help her set up a schedule and ways to keep her on track to remember.  Then simply do not clean her clothes.  This is something within your realm of control.

 

As for whether she actually does any of the things you ask her to do, if she is struggling with depression/anxiety/executive function issues then just random reminders without follow through won't help her.  If you want her to clean the bathroom, tell her what time and what day then do it with her.  If she argues, be calm and loving but firm.  It has to be done now and you are willing to help but she needs to do it now.  Then work with her in whatever capacity you can.  Not later.  Now.  If she still refuses, though, I don't see how you can make her.  

 

As for what happened with her therapist, that's unconscionable.  Ugh!  You must have felt sick.  I'm so sorry.  TBH, I have been in a similar situation with regards to a doctor and a family member.  What I shared in confidence was not kept confidential and it damaged my relationship with someone I deeply care about.  It also kept the other person from getting the medical help they needed.  It is a horrible position to be in.    :grouphug:

[Only me]

I started a private chat group but I have no idea how to send a link to this page. I assume I should have made the group hidden to keep the information private

 

Once I get this to work I will probably edit this post again. I wish I knew about this earlier. Thank you!

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[OneStepAtATime]

I think once you are on the private chat group and have your settings in place you could just post here or start a new thread asking who might be interested in joining.  People who are interested can post that they would like to join.  Then you go back to your private group and send invitations to those who expressed interest.  Once they accept the invitation you accept them as a member and they are in.  Just make sure you have the user name absolutely correct.   :)  Once you have a pretty good core group you can delete the invitation and just send PMs and private invitations as you run into others you think you might feel good about conversing with in a more private setting and might also benefit from your group.

 

ETA:  If you want to be the only one inviting people in, make that clear to new members so there is no awkward issue later on.  Only you can approve new member requests but others might PM people to send you a request and if you are not comfortable with that, it helps to let them know ahead of time not to mention the group to others without your o.k.

Edited January 21, 2017 by OneStepAtATime