Nm

[Only me]

Nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Mom in Suburbia

[ktgrok]

For starters stop doing her laundry. Heck, I don't do my own teenager's laundry!!!! Just tell her you are in a lot of pain, and she's an adult, and there is no reason you should do her laundry. Stop offering to buy her groceries. You can't make her clean, but you can control your own actions. 

[Meriwether]

I'd tell I was happy she was moving out and the sooner the better. Sorry.  :001_unsure:  I wouldn't worry about pampering her so she will come back.

[HomeAgain]

Treat her as a roommate.

 

Stop doing her laundry.  You don't like it, she doesn't appreciate it.  You need to stop.

 

Don't buy her groceries.  If she needs something she can ask you, pay for it, and if you're willing you can buy it and give her back her change. 

 

Start asking "when can I expect this done by?" when she needs to clean up around the house.  Invest in a plastic laundry basket and move her junk into the laundry basket when she fails to live up to her end of the deal.  Put the basket in her room.  Stop her from using your things if she won't wash them/clean up after herself.  She should be investing in her own pots and pans if she's not cleaning yours.

 

And smile, let her know that you'd love to have her visit anytime, but DON'T let yourself fall victim!  You can't control her choices - if she's going to be petty enough to not come visit because you expect her to be an adult, there's a lot more she needs to work out before she has a clear head.

 

 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It's a long way to June. Since she can afford to move out, I would invite her to do so now. If she holds it over your head that if she doesn't like your actions, she won't visit you, tell her you hope she'll change her mind and good luck.

 

This is a sad scenario, and I do remember your other threads. :( Since things are no better, it may be time to show your daughter the door.

 

She may be at risk of making some bad decisions. But so are many 24yos who are adults with college degrees and full-time jobs. And staying with you has not prevented her from making bad decisions.

 

Pray hard and let her go.

[bettyandbob]

Stop doing any of her laundry.

 

Can your DS use another bathroom. I'd consider having her use a bathroom by herself and never cleaning it and throwing all her trash that is deposited outside of her room or that bathroom back into her room or bath. Basically isolate her filth and force her to live with it by herself.

 

Maybe it will be a crappy 5 months. Maybe she wont visit for a while after she moves. Let those thoughts go. She will have to grow up. She will probably blame you for her issues when she moves out. It will hurt. You aren't going to be able to stop that process.

 

The only person you can control is you. Do not model being a doormat for your younger DC to watch.

[hjffkj]

First off stop doing her laundry and shopping for her. She is fully capable of doing those things herself. Just tell her they are her responsibility now, no need to explain why. If she pressed just repeat they are her responsibility. A person who is unable to show respect and who is being manipulative about visiting after she leaves doesn't deserve to be helped in those ways.

 

Next I'd give her one months notice on getting out of the house or paying rent. Then use a portion of that rent money to hire a cleaner. Or if she moves out you don't have.to worry about her not cleaning the bathroom.

 

It may seem harsh but at 24 she needs to grow up and get out or be willing to accept that she is an adult who needs to work with the other adults in the house to make life pleasant for eveeyone

[zoobie]

Stop doing her laundry. Let your DS use another bathroom. My cousin did this to her parents, and it's worse now that she has a child. She uses them for free daycare and threatens to remove access entirely if they don't do exactly as she says. It's awful.

[amy g.]

I agree, with not worrying about her threats of not coming around.

 

Also agreeing not to do her laundry.

 

Does she outright defy you? If you said, "I need you to get these groceries on the way home tonight." Would she say no?

 

What if you said,"When this episode is over, go put your laundry in."

 

Or when you get up on Saturday, I need you to clean your bathroom first thing."

 

I remember your other post. I think it is a mistake to not give her an exact time when you want these things done.

 

If she is refusing a very specific request like the ones above, I'd be tempted to ask her to move out right away.

 

It isn't good for anyone.

 

I have a couple of adult kids who see what needs to be done without ever being asked. I have one who never offers to do anything, but she will do it when I tell her to. I decided that is good enough. I don't give her weekly chores. I just tell her what I need her to do at the time I need it done and she will comply.

[Critterfixer]

Gut instinct, I'd say, "Stop doing all the things for her!" 

However, I do recognize that the bathroom does triple duty, and the kitchen is a joint space as well. Laundry you could separate, but it's kind of hard if everybody shares groceries, pots and pans and bathroom space to just say, "Stop doing the work." That said, I do think you need to stop doing the work. Whatever the relationship now, and whatever you want it to be, it isn't getting any better with you doing the work, is it? Could you possibly hire cleaning weekly? Or twice a week? Just take that battle away for now. 

Grocery buying she can handle, or she can ask nicely, and you can say no if you want. She can certainly do her own laundry.

[CadenceSophia]

She only has the upper hand if you give it to her. She's going to have to deal with a lot more housework when she moves out. I would not ask her at all anymore of she is coming back for holidays and if she brings it up you can just say "we love you and always want you around but this has nothing to do with contributing to the maintenance of the house you live in"

 

I would totally agree with just stopping her laundry and special snacks for lunch. Having a full time job doesn't mean you are too busy to clean up after yourself and handle ordinary house work. That's what grown ups do.

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I know you want to preserve the relationship but letting her blackmail you is not going to do so.  I agree with the others, don't put her in that position of power over you.  Just don't.  You are harming you and her and honestly the whole family by allowing her to blackmail you in this way.  You are going to have to be strong, even though you are worried what it will do to your relationship long term.  Be matter of fact and make it clear that you are not her personal slave, she is an adult now and can take responsibility for herself.  If you being her personal slave is the only way she will agree to come back after she moves out, then be calm and loving but explain that maybe she would be better off staying away from home for a while and taking some time to grow up.  In fact, you are thinking she might do better living on her own right now.  Make it clear that you love her but you are not going to allow her to rule over you and if she cannot be a contributing member of the household she needs to have her own household.  

 

Does she have executive function issues?  I ask because I thought once before you mentioned she had some sort of issue that made me think staying organized was exceedingly challenging for her and she might need some significant scaffolding (which it seems she is unwilling to accept?).

 

1.  Absolutely Stop doing her laundry.  Don't be angry about it when you explain it to her.  Just be honest.  She is an adult. She can do her own laundry.  If she is uncertain how to accomplish that or she needs a schedule with support systems to remind her, explain that you are more than willing to help set that up but that from now on she does her own laundry or she won't have clean clothes. Every piece of dirty clothing of hers goes back into her room (get a basket in a different color just for her stuff) and she is responsible.  Don't do ANY more laundry for her.  Period.  She has abused the privilege over and over.

 

2.  Bathroom.  Is there any way her brother can use another bathroom?  If not, you can't really physically make her clean it.  I'm not sure how you make her do something she doesn't want to do.  With the clothes, well, if she wants to wear dirty clothes so be it.  If she wants clean clothes she has to do it herself.  Don't cave.  But with the bathroom?  I don't know.  Very hard to make an adult do something.  Is there anything you could hold over her head?

 

Basically she is making all of your lives harder and that has not improved.  It won't improve unless you change the situation.  She needs time to live on her own and try to improve herself.  She needs to know you will no longer be her safety net and personal slave.  Hard as it will be, you have to cut the cord.

 

Isolate her from the rest of the house as much as possible.  Find a way for her footprint to be as small as possible so that her unwillingness to contribute will not negatively impact the rest of you.  Do nothing for her that you can avoid doing.  Be loving but firm.  

Edited January 21, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[OneStepAtATime]

One thing my brother in law did as a single parent was buy each of his kids their own set of dishes, color coded so it was easy to tell whose was whose.  If anyone wanted to eat they had to wash their own dishes.  If they had no clean dishes they couldn't eat.  The spare dishes were locked away so they couldn't just grab more dishes.  Not sure if that would work for you but I thought I would mention it.

[TammyS]

Treat her as a roommate.

 

Stop doing her laundry.  You don't like it, she doesn't appreciate it.  You need to stop.

 

Don't buy her groceries.  If she needs something she can ask you, pay for it, and if you're willing you can buy it and give her back her change. 

 

Start asking "when can I expect this done by?" when she needs to clean up around the house.  Invest in a plastic laundry basket and move her junk into the laundry basket when she fails to live up to her end of the deal.  Put the basket in her room.  Stop her from using your things if she won't wash them/clean up after herself.  She should be investing in her own pots and pans if she's not cleaning yours.

 

And smile, let her know that you'd love to have her visit anytime, but DON'T let yourself fall victim!  You can't control her choices - if she's going to be petty enough to not come visit because you expect her to be an adult, there's a lot more she needs to work out before she has a clear head.

 

I agree with all of this, except the laundry hamper part.  She can buy that herself, if she wants it.  Tell her you are no longer doing her laundry and if you find it in your laundry you will assume she doesn't want it and throw it away, and that this is the only time you are going to talk about it.  Then DO it.

[TammyS]

You say she pays for her own stuff - does that mean her PORTION or her own?  I mean, is she on your cell plan?  Using your internet?  Is she on your car insurance or does she truly have her own policies and cell plan?

 

First, I would stop doing anything for her, at all.  I wouldn't even buy groceries for her if she put money in my hand while I was on the way to the store.  She doesn't want to play on the team, she doesn't get team privileges.

 

Second, I would have a list of requirements (which, apparently, in your mind, amounts to nothing more than clean the bathroom).  I would let her know that if she violates the requirements, even once, you will drop her from all shared things in the house (cell plan, car insurance, internet, whatever).  No warnings, no nagging, no discussion.  She will just find out that her phone suddenly no longer works.  Her 2nd violation would result in a 30 day notice to move.

 

Look, whatever you give her now or don't isn't going to change how she treats you after she moves.  Maybe she'll disappear for a while, maybe she won't.  But giving into her terrorism isn't going to change that.  So, stop living like a hostage in your own home! 

 

Also, once she moves out, turn her room into something else.  In fact, go knock on her door right now and take some measurements for the renovations.  Don't be nasty, but make it known that you are already planning your life without her.

[PeachyDoodle]

:grouphug:

 

I remember your previous posts too. Unfortunately, I agree that it might be time to call her bluff and tell her she needs to move now instead of waiting until June. She can't hold that over your head if you're willing to force her hand. Hopefully this will be enough to wake her up, and your relationship won't suffer any long-term effects, but really, your relationship is already suffering badly. This is your best chance to help it, in the long run.

 

Regardless of what else you decide, definitely stop doing anything for her that you are doing. No more laundry, groceries, dishes, money, favors -- anything.

 

Ignore everything else. Find a way to make it up to your ds for having to use a nasty bathroom -- let him use another bath, if possible, or give him some other reward/token of appreciation. At the very least, let him know how much you appreciate that he is a team player and willing to contribute to the family, and that you're proud of him (you probably already do this, but just reiterating it).

[bettyandbob]

If she throws her things in a family hamper, set them aside when you are sorting leave them in a pile on the floor of the laundry room or put them on the floor of her room.

[The Girls' Mom]

By being a doormat now, you aren't preventing her from treating you like a doormat later.  

 

At 24, she's more than capable of holding down a job and helping you out around the house.  At 24 I was raising three kids by myself while my dh traveled every other week for work.  She is taking advantage of you.  

 

I would tell her to help or find an apartment to trash all by herself.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

By being a doormat now, you aren't preventing her from treating you like a doormat later.  

 

At 24, she's more than capable of holding down a job and helping you out around the house.  At 24 I was raising three kids by myself while my dh traveled every other week for work.  She is taking advantage of you.  

 

I would tell her to help or find an apartment to trash all by herself.  

 

Whoa. When you put it that way...I was also raising three kids, managing a household, with DH away a lot for school and work, at 24. Either that's an adult or we were younger than we thought!

[Seasider]

A college graduate with a full time job? We would have a written contract/cost sharing agreement. Not rent, but a share of actual costs. Take your total monthly expense for groceries, electricity, lawn maintenance, property (contents) insurance, divide it by the number of people living at the house, give her a bill for her share in the second or third of each month, payable by the 15th. This is honestly a sweet deal for her because it doesn't include actually paying for a house, just the cost of living in it. If she wants to negotiate, entertain some ideas but do get the final agreement in writing. The agreement is important because when she breaks it, it's what you point to when you say, "Well, now you have 30 days to find another place to live (or whatever consequences were stipulated)." It takes you out and makes The Agreement the law.

 

Assign her a laundry day(s) and do not do it for her. Or, set out your laundry service fees as part of the agreement and add it appropriately to the cost sharing bill each month. She can keep her bedroom however she likes it (short of drawing pests), but any of her stuff left laying around the house will be tossed into her room (or a trash can in the garage) on a regular basis.

 

IIRC from your other thread a while back, there are extenuating circumstances. However, requiring her to take on a minimum level of responsibility would be a kindness. No other landlord would provide so much for so little in return. I don't know why your dh refuses to engage but in my home that would be a huge impediment to my marital relationship.

 

This is just my two cents, but it is funny to me that just two hours ago my dh and I had a conversation about the list of conditions our college kids are going to have to follow this summer (lol that's the kind of conversation a nice long winter break produces!).

[Seasider]

Oh, add the bill for the bathroom cleaning to The Agreement.

 

As for her threatening tone about not coming back - well, I'd take a chance on that. The way she treats you now, very disrespectfully and manipulatively, she's not likely to come back and visit unless she needs your house as a free hotel. I would call her bluff.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Seasider

[Guest]

You need to make a bathroom contract. Those who wish to use the bathroom decide on the cleaning and restocking schedule. They agree to the condition it is to be left in,and what happens if contract not honored. You as the landlord can change the lock and issue keys. She can shower at the boyfriends and use another toilet in the home instead of being nasty to her sibs if she doesn't want to contract.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Heigh Ho

[MotherGoose]

You are too nice to her. At 24 I had a house and etc and didn't depend on mama for anything. But I went home for Christmas etc. because I love my mama! Speaking kindly to you...I believe I expect my ten year old to do more than you want her to do as an adult. She's getting herself into a difficult position of being able to hold the relationship over your head if you don't comply. You will be doing a favor to her and to her future spouse and relationships to cut this off now. Do you really want her to come around because you were so nice to her, or do you want her to come around because you have a good relationship? I'm trying to be kind to you, please understand.

[Only me]

Nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Mom in Suburbia

[wonderchica]

I don't know where her attitude stems from, but it's continuing because you're allowing it to. I'd ask her to move it. At the very least, stop doing the laundry and start collecting enough rent to pay for a house cleaner a couple times a month.

[TammyS]

 I really don't understand her attitude.

 

Really?  You let her live for free in your home.  You provide her with groceries.  You do her laundry.  You require nothing of her (asking and HOPING she does it is NOT a requirement).  You ask and she threatens, and she gets what she wants.  Her attitude isn't a mystery.  She is doing what works.  You need to stop making it work for her.  It's not kind.  The world isn't going to coddle her this way.

[Jenny in Florida]

Negotiating this kind-of-adult-but-not-really phase is tough, especially when said not-fully-adult is living at home. We're finding our way through the transition with our son, too.

 

What has "worked" (as much as anything) with him is to sit down and quietly, calmly, lovingly explain that things need to change, then offer a clear but limited set of options that are acceptable to us and let him choose the one he can live with.

 

So, if this were my kid, I would tell her that, while I recognize and respect her desire to be independent, for the moment she is still sharing space with the rest of the family and has a responsibility to contribute, because that's what responsible adults do. The agreement was that she would stay rent free for a year with the understanding that she would meet certain expectations, specifically, cleaning the bathroom. While I have gone above and beyond (doing her laundry and grocery shopping, etc.), she has not lived up to that committment, and so the agreement has to be modified.

 

I would emphasize that I love her deeply and that I absolutely don't want the current conflict/tension to jeopardize our future relationship. Then I would explain that I will no longer be doing her laundry or doing any chores or favors for her. And I would set a clear, specific deadline (maybe a couple of weeks) for her to choose whether she wants to begin paying me rent, re-commit to the original agreement and reliably clean the bathroom . . . or move out before June, like as soon as she can make arrangements. I'd remind her again that I love her and tell her it's up to her to decide what she wants to do. 

 

The key, I've found, to making this approach effective is to never let this devolve into an argument. I have to speak quietly and kindly, be respectful and loving, but also completely firm. I say clearly that my priorities are fulfilling my obligation as a parent to set my children up to succeed as happy, healthy, functional adults and to preserve my relationships with them. 

 

I wish you the best navigating these waters. It really is hard for both sides, I think.

 

 

[City Mouse]

Isn't it Dr. Phil that says something along the lines of people can't take advantage of you unless you let them?

 

she is taking advantage of the situation because you let her and she can. Why should she change? The only consequence to her actions/lack of actions is that she has to listen to you nag a little bit.

 

Do you really think she will never talk to you again if you stop supporting her and stop putting up with this behavior? Is the kind of relationship you have now worth putting up with her? You have made life too easy for her.

 

Like everyone else says, Stop putting up with it!

 

Ok, you can't physically force her t clean the bathroom like you might with a 5yr old who needs hand over hand assistance, but you can cut off all the things that everyone else does for her which makes her life so comfortable.

 

Stop washing her clothes.

Stop buying her groceries and fixing her food.

Stop doing anything to make her life more comfortable.

If she doesn't work, or doesn't contribute financially, then no one else in the family should be doing anything for her.

 

And why in the world are you paying her student loans?

 

She has her own money, she isn't going to starve or go to work naked because you stopped doing her laundry.

[zoobie]

Given the other thread, you may want to consider there's some narcissism and/or BPD at play in addition to whatever else. If that's the case, you'll have to set boundaries for your own sanity. :grouphug:

[Donna]

Negotiating this kind-of-adult-but-not-really phase is tough, especially when said not-fully-adult is living at home. We're finding our way through the transition with our son, too.

 

What has "worked" (as much as anything) with him is to sit down and quietly, calmly, lovingly explain that things need to change, then offer a clear but limited set of options that are acceptable to us and let him choose the one he can live with.

 

So, if this were my kid, I would tell her that, while I recognize and respect her desire to be independent, for the moment she is still sharing space with the rest of the family and has a responsibility to contribute, because that's what responsible adults do. The agreement was that she would stay rent free for a year with the understanding that she would meet certain expectations, specifically, cleaning the bathroom. While I have gone above and beyond (doing her laundry and grocery shopping, etc.), she has not lived up to that committment, and so the agreement has to be modified.

 

I would emphasize that I love her deeply and that I absolutely don't want the current conflict/tension to jeopardize our future relationship. Then I would explain that I will no longer be doing her laundry or doing any chores or favors for her. And I would set a clear, specific deadline (maybe a couple of weeks) for her to choose whether she wants to begin paying me rent, re-commit to the original agreement and reliably clean the bathroom . . . or move out before June, like as soon as she can make arrangements. I'd remind her again that I love her and tell her it's up to her to decide what she wants to do. 

 

The key, I've found, to making this approach effective is to never let this devolve into an argument. I have to speak quietly and kindly, be respectful and loving, but also completely firm. I say clearly that my priorities are fulfilling my obligation as a parent to set my children up to succeed as happy, healthy, functional adults and to preserve my relationships with them. 

 

I wish you the best navigating these waters. It really is hard for both sides, I think.

 

This is how we have handled life with our adult "child" living at home. We have calmly discussed our expectations and reaffirmed that we love him and enjoy the fact that he lives at home (which he is allowed to do rent-free). Living in a home with a family requires input from everyone for it to work.

 

Ds21 is expected to keep his room clean, do his laundry, pay his car insurance and cell phone bill (on our plan), and when asked do other chores like refill the chicken food bucket, clean the chicken coop, mow the grass, and take garbage to the dump. He works two jobs while going to school so his free time is very limited which we do take into consideration.  We have had to talk a few times about letting us know if he is going to be late at night...just so we don't worry if we wake at 1am in the morning and he isn't home. 

 

My kids have grown up with chore expectations so it isn't anything new when they hit adulthood. Dd14 is expected to cook dinner 1-2 nights a week (the nights both parents are working late), clean up the kitchen, keep her room clean, and help out with other chores like bathrooms, dusting, and laundry when asked. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

I'm with PP's. No more laundry, groceries, nothing. I'd also charge her rent (and to me that's a last resort). Which I would give back in payments when she did her chores.  She won't pay or clean? I'd put a lock on the bathroom door.  I'm a rather easygoing and permissive parent but what she's doing is a serious form of manipulation and abuse.  She will likely get over it once she's out on her own but if you continue to be a doormat now she will always treat you that way.

 

 

ETA: I went back and read some of the other threads and while I wasn't going to mention it, but others did, I agree that she's like NPD and that takes some special handling, there are a lot of books and articles available on how to deal with NPD.

 

 

I'd also like to say that I have recently seen significant improvement with the NPD in my life (who's in their mid 30's) so there is hope, for me at least, that they can change.

Edited January 21, 2017 by foxbridgeacademy

[Only me]

Nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[Lang Syne Boardie]

As far as it being random for you to announce the end of your patience now, there isn't a parent of teens or college kids out there who hasn't let the kettle boil over in their presence, FINALLY, when the kid hadn't even figured out it was simmering...

[poppy]

 

 

She is moving out with her boyfriend in June and is holding that over my head. I asked her if she will be back for holidays and she said it depends on how things go between now and

 

She said that? She is threatening you and her leverage is, do this for me or I'm  won't visit for Christmas? I'm flabbergasted. What a slap in the face.

I wouldn't treat my most annoying random cousin like that, let alone my own mother. 
That's not normal and you don't have to accept it.  You really, really don't. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Since you feel it will be very random to tell her you will no longer do her laundry I am guessing you rarely ask her to do her own laundry?   She isn't learning how to cope with staying organized and functioning as an adult.  You are going to have to set some firm guidelines that are very clearly laid out.  Put it in writing.  Keep it clear and succinct.  Pick specific days and times you expect things to be done that she is expected to do.  Write it down and make it clear that if she wants to continue to live there she has to help.

 

And I have to agree and want to reemphasize, don't let this devolve into an argument.  Maybe the best course of action is to write her a letter.  Explain how much you love her but she is taking advantage of you and of the situation.  Be firm.  Explain that the situation has become untenable.  Go point by point on what you will no longer do and what you expect from her.  Do NOT allow an argument to start.  Do NOT engage.  If she tries to argue, tell her you love her but this is not up for discussion and walk away.  Over and over.  She will try to manipulate you and make you feel bad.  Only you can stop it.  Only you have the power to turn this in another direction.  But you will have to be very strong.  Make a bullet list, going step by step, with the things that will be changing.  Specifically address the things you can absolutely make happen (such as not doing her laundry any more).   And make it clear that if she is unwilling to live with these things she can move out but will always be welcome if she wants to come visit.  If she threatens not to ever come back DO NOT ENGAGE.  Tell her that would make you sad but it is her decision whether she returns or not.  She will always be welcome to visit.  

 

ETA: And yes, she may storm out and say hurtful things or things that scare you and make you think she is not coming back but you cannot back down.  This isn't just to help with the running of your household this is to help your daughter.  She needs to learn how to function without you always there to pick up the pieces.  Yes she needs you.  But she has no right to use you.  And you are not doing her any favors by letting her.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

 

Edited January 21, 2017 by OneStepAtATime

[AndyJoy]

Disclaimer: My oldest is 7, so my thoughts here are based off of my parents' dealings with my 20-year-old sister, the advice of friends who've dealt with this, and the dynamics I've witnessed with classmates/parents and friends/adult offspring.

 

She's reaping the benefits of childhood (laundry, prepared meals, free room) without the restrictions of a child (curfew, enforced chores, removal of privileges like phone, car, outings for misbehavior). She's reaping the benefits of adulthood (independence, job with money to spend, choices for how to use her time) without the responsibilities of adulthood (pay for everything or do it yourself, natural consequences when you misuse other adults). It sounds like she needs a push into adulthood. If she's trying to blackmail you by withholding future visits, I think it's unlikely she's going to grow up while living in your home. I don't think it's doing her any favors to keep letting her live as a child/adult "good parts" hybrid.

Edited January 21, 2017 by AndyJoy

[Plink]

Are you afraid? Your interactions with her sound like you are walking on egg-shells trying to somehow prevent her from growing up and moving far away (even though you really do want her to become a healthy mature adult).

 

If so, I'd find a trusted mentor or therapist to share your fears with. Spend some time gathering your thoughts, crying, or whatever you need to do, but Hold strong in front of DD. She is using your tender heart and giving nature against you.

 

Personally, I'd tell DD that I was trading the bathroom chore (which we all know she wouldn't ever do any way) for laundry because she wasn't completing it in a timely manner. She might not like it, but doing her own laundry won't seem random or like an attack - it is a fair trade of one chore for another.

 

Have you ever researched co-dependency? I have no idea if this applies to your situation, but it might be worth reading about.

Edited January 21, 2017 by Plink

[bolt.]

Your view of this relationship is very much beyond the boundaries of logic or kindness. She is not a child. She is an adult boarder in your home. She owes you nothing in terms of consideration or contribution -- those aren't relationship components that exist any more. You owe her nothing but what you choose to give her (within your own commitment, and within any rights she has legally as a boarder).

 

There is no "upper hand" because she owns herself and you own yourself. In terms of her, she makes all the choices. That's not the "upper hand" that's perfectly normal. Her life is not a shared enterprise unless she wants it to be. You don't have any say, and you don't have any responsibility. It's not yours.

 

In terms of you, you make all your choices -- launder what you want to launder, buy what you want to buy, house who you want to house. You can't blame her as if she makes you do these things. She isn't making you do anything.

 

If the only point of contention is the bathroom, here's a plan. Grab a laundry basket, throw all her problematic bathroom objects into it, and put it in her room on her bed. Include the garbage bag if it is 3/4 full. Do this daily until it irritates her enough to begin cleaning up after herself. If she cleans the bathroom (in the cleaning sense), leave her objects alone for 2 weeks.

 

In the meantime buy a commercial grade tub cleaning spray and a long handled scrub wand. Spray, swipe, rinse and walk away. It takes 3 minutes every 2 weeks and provides a clean environment for your son. Also buy dissolving toilet pucks to keep the toilet sanitary without any work at all (besides a Lysol wipe for the surfaces of the toilet -- another 30 seconds, I guess).

 

The reason you couldn't see this 5 minute bathroom solution is because you are enmeshed in your relationship and it's hurting both of you. The emotionality of it all is clouding your good judgement. Try to find your way past that and you will both be happier (whether together or apart).

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Your view of this relationship is very much beyond the boundaries of logic or kindness. She is not a child. She is an adult boarder in your home. She owes you nothing in terms of consideration or contribution -- those aren't relationship components that exist any more. You owe her nothing but what you choose to give her (within your own commitment, and within any rights she has legally as a boarder).

 

There is no "upper hand" because she owns herself and you own yourself. In terms of her, she makes all the choices. That's not the "upper hand" that's perfectly normal. Her life is not a shared enterprise unless she wants it to be. You don't have any say, and you don't have any responsibility. It's not yours.

 

In terms of you, you make all your choices -- launder what you want to launder, buy what you want to buy, house who you want to house. You can't blame her as if she makes you do these things. She isn't making you do anything.

 

If the only point of contention is the bathroom, here's a plan. Grab a laundry basket, throw all her problematic bathroom objects into it, and put it in her room on her bed. Include the garbage bag if it is 3/4 full. Do this daily until it irritates her enough to begin cleaning up after herself. If she cleans the bathroom (in the cleaning sense), leave her objects alone for 2 weeks.

 

In the meantime buy a commercial grade tub cleaning spray and a long handled scrub wand. Spray, swipe, rinse and walk away. It takes 3 minutes every 2 weeks and provides a clean environment for your son. Also buy dissolving toilet pucks to keep the toilet sanitary without any work at all (besides a Lysol wipe for the surfaces of the toilet -- another 30 seconds, I guess).

 

The reason you couldn't see this 5 minute bathroom solution is because you are enmeshed in your relationship and it's hurting both of you. The emotionality of it all is clouding your good judgement. Try to find your way past that and you will both be happier (whether together or apart).

 

Do you have adult children? I don't know any parents who see their children as boarders. That's an odd perspective, I think. Also, boarders traditionally pay rent, right?

 

If you missed the other threads about this situation, a three minute tidy every two weeks will not solve the bathroom problem. The dd is exceptionally messy. (Although, for most people even a lightly used bathroom needs more than three minutes every other week.)

 

Also, with your plan, mom is still dealing with dd's bathroom mess daily (moving the objects and trash into her room) and doing all the cleaning, which solves nothing.

[Only me]

nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[maize]

I can't remember the details of your last thread but I think there were mental health concerns?

 

You mentioned that she pays part of her student loans--are you paying part? If you are not cosigners on the loans but are paying them that could be a place to make a change--stop paying the loans and turn them over to her, and use those funds to hire household help.

Edited January 21, 2017 by maize

[BooksandBoys]

She is not a boarder. She is a member of our family. She does not pay rent. (A one year agreement we made to help her get on her feet financially). As such she should be willing to contribute. I've never heard of members of a family not contributing. This is just a somewhat recent problem. I have two other adult children (one is away at college) but they contribute. I think that is the norm. As she has a full time job I don't expect her to contribute as much as she did before. Why should everyone else be expected to take care of the house and not her? She doesn't do anything. As far as the bathroom I cannot physically bend down and clean the tub as it causes me a lot of pain. She shares the bathroom with her brother who has other responsibilities around the home so it's unreasonable for him to have to clean it. It is reasonable for him to not have to deal with the constant mess. We are not renting her a room and bathroom. She shares with the family.

Agreements can absolutely be modified. And family should help.

Once upon a time, my brother in law moved in with us so that he could save money. He was 22. We were so happy to have him! We had a contract, simple though it was. He violated the contract repeatedly (spilled food all over the kitchen floor in anger and left without cleaning it up, refused to do even the simplest chores, including cooking, expected me to grocery shop for him, repeatedly made us late for work by taking hour long showers in our single bathroom, despite being asked repeatedly to shorten said showers or take them at other times, and many other things.).

 

We discussed the violations calmly and problem-solved with him for several months, and we worried, a lot, afraid that setting boundaries would ruin our relationship with him. But, it became apparent that he had no interest in holding up his end of the bargain.

 

So, we "modified" our agreement. We kicked him out (30 days notice). We didn't want to, but he wasn't developing into a responsible human by living with us and getting away with treating us like he did. And we wanted to still like him. :-) He was angry. He was livid. Eventually, he realized that we had played fair. He's grown up now (as defined by responsibility, not age) and spoils his nephews ridiculously. He comes to visit even though we live far away. He welcomes us to visit too. He's a good man, he just couldn't be allowed to stomp all over his family just because he didn't care to help.

 

Hugs. Boundaries are good for you and for your daughter, but it's so hard to see that when you are caught up in the game.

[JFSinIL]

Do not buy her any groceries. Do not pay any of her student loans. Do not do her laundry. I agree with the poster who said to dump all her various bathroom cr*p into a basket and stick it in her room.   If she complains, hey, it is YOUR house.  When she moves out with bf I doubt he is going to do what you have been doing for her.  If they end up living in squalor, they will figure out how to manage (or get evicted).

[Only me]

Nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[Guest]

You seem.very insistent that your young man never clean his shared bathroom. Is it going to stay that way after his sis moves out?

[Ellie]

Yeah, if she were mine, I'd tell her to pack up and move out tomorrow.

 

She's an adult person with a college degree and a full-time job. She can make it on her own.

[OneStepAtATime]

She is not a boarder. She is a member of our family. She does not pay rent. (A one year agreement we made to help her get on her feet financially). As such she should be willing to contribute. I've never heard of members of a family not contributing. This is just a somewhat recent problem. I have two other adult children (one is away at college) but they contribute. I think that is the norm. As she has a full time job I don't expect her to contribute as much as she did before. Why should everyone else be expected to take care of the house and not her? She doesn't do anything. As far as the bathroom I cannot physically bend down and clean the tub as it causes me a lot of pain. She shares the bathroom with her brother who has other responsibilities around the home so it's unreasonable for him to have to clean it. It is reasonable for him to not have to deal with the constant mess. We are not renting her a room and bathroom. She shares with the family.

You are right, she is a member of your family.  And as such, yes, she should contribute.  But she is an adult member that is refusing to contribute and is being pretty strongly passive aggressive about it, apparently.  And has some mental health issues, yes?  You cannot nag her into cleaning the bathroom, you cannot cajole her into cleaning the bathroom and you cannot beat her into cleaning the bathroom (not that you would).  It sounds like the bathroom has become a trigger point in the family.  And that your daughter has some serious executive function deficits, among other things.  

 

I agree with Maize, if you are helping with her student loans, then let her know that you are no longer going to do so.  She can pay for them herself.  You will use the money to help pay for housecleaning since she refuses to contribute.  Also, make it clear that she will have to do her own laundry.  Her clothes will not be washed by anyone else but her from now on.  Don't make it a war of wills.  Just explain in writing the changes that will take place.  Drop the bathroom issue.  You can't make her.  All this is doing is causing more stress for everyone and not accomplishing anything.  Find some other way for her to contribute if you feel you can and maybe insist that her bathroom items remain in her room when not in use.  If she leaves them in the bathroom put them back in her room.  Every time.  Bro will have to clean the tub but maybe there is something else you can insist she does instead of it being one of Bro's duties.

 

You have had a lot of advice on this thread.  You have had a lot of advice on your previous thread.  You have not really responded to any of it as if you think some of these ideas will work and you intend to try and implement some of them.  

 

What is it, exactly, that you are seeking with this thread?  Is it really more of a JAWM?  Are you really just needing to vent right now?  If so, I do understand.  Parenting is hard.  And you are there with boots on the ground, seeing things that we cannot.  If you really don't feel you can do any of the things suggested, maybe changing the title to JAWM and asking for emotional support will be more productive.  There isn't going to be a magic bullet suggestion that fixes the situation without you having to act in a way that will probably upset your daughter.  There are recommendations that might or might not work but nothing is going to be an easy path.  I'm sorry for that.  I do hope you can find some way to work through this that will net some sort of positive result in the long run.  

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[wendy not in HI]

I get how hard it is to balance peace at home and also not getting walked on...

 

I wonder if you could make a new family rule: everyone does their own laundry.  All kids at home do their own laundry.  Not picking on anyone in particular, everyone gets to learn and grow by doing their own.  I would assign days, and offer a roll of quarters the first time a child misses their day and wants to do laundry (ie send them to the nearest laundromat.)   I don't think this requires a family meeting or renegotiating the terms of her stay.  Just casually let each child know that they are now on their own for laundry.  Post a sign on the laundry room door "Mom's Laundry is Out of Business" and list who gets the machine on what day.  No discussion. No bargaining.  No helping out in a pinch.   Any laundry left in the laundry room or bathroom is quietly moved to bedrooms.  Any misuse of the home laundry = laundromat (clothes left in washer to mold...)

 

Honestly at this point I'd give up on the bathroom.  You will have more luck kicking her out than getting her to follow up on bathroom cleaning.  If you are not doing everyone's laundry, maybe you won't "mind" cleaning the bathroom each day - a quick counter sweep into her basket and a quick wipe down.  Basket of her stuff stashed in the corner or taken to her bedroom.  It's not ideal, but it might just get you through the next few months.  Eta - bath cleaning and your level of pain - I'd ignore the actual tub and invite son to use the shower in my room.  The rest of the bathroom cleaning is as easy as loading and unloading the washer and dryer.

 

Expect nothing from her.  Give the minimum you are able to.  If buying lunch treats is your thing, do it, but don't expect any sort of thank you or reciprocity.  Don't plan family nights or dinners with her, but if she joins in, enjoy the fun.

Edited January 21, 2017 by wendy not in HI

[Only me]

nm

Edited January 21, 2017 by Only me

[Only me]

It's not just the bathroom! It's the fact that she refuses to do anything.