Math & 3rd grade boy

[Plateau Mama]

Not sure what to do. Math everyday is either complaining about how much he hates math or a down right meltdown. He refuses to show his work and tries to do everything in his head. When I make him write out the problem we go into meltdown mode, no matter how easy/hard the problem is. He is not struggling with the concepts. He is knows all his facts. He just doesn't like it.

 

We did Saxon until the middle of 3. - He complained daily of how easy it was. I was bored silly by the repetition and the teacher involvement time.

 

We switched to Math Mammoth. That brought him to tears daily. We quickly switched to Singapore.

 

We did 2a & 2b last year with no issue. Started 3a in the summer. 3b in January.

 

Today we were learning converting pounds to ounces and back. Full blown meltdown. I sat and did every problem beside him but held firm he had to show his work. Once he writes the problem Down he has no problem doing it.

 

So, do I just stick with Singapore tears and all and teach him that he needs to show his work? Do I go back to Saxon which was easy and bored him silly. Or try something new?

 

Help!

Edited January 20, 2017 by Plateau Mama

[Kiara.I]

So, for a different perspective... He can do mental math! Great! Why does he need to show his work right now?

 

Is showing his work so important that it's worth making him hate math?

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Plateau Mama]

So, for a different perspective... He can do mental math! Great! Why does he need to show his work right now?

 

Is showing his work so important that it's worth making him hate math?

 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Because he is not getting the correct answers. And even when he does it is taking him a super long time to get the answer. I'm talking things like dividing 743 by 13. Not simple things like 32 divided by 16. If it's an easy problem I don't make him show his work.

 

The struggle is he can no longer do a lot of these problems in his head but he is fighting the "extra" work of showing his work.

[Tanaqui]

What happens if he dictates the steps, and you write them down? Will he do that?

[Plateau Mama]

What happens if he dictates the steps, and you write them down? Will he do that?

Not willingly.

 

He is very independent and does not like to be helped with anything but gets frustrated very easily if he is not successful the first time (or I make him correct his work.)

Edited January 20, 2017 by Plateau Mama

[OneStepAtATime]

If he is that miserable he probably isn't learning or retaining much anyway.  His brain is in fight or flight mode.  I agree, what happens if he dictates the problems to you?  Can he remember the steps if he dictates and you write?  Does he dislike handwriting in general?  Or just with math assignments?  Might you consider cutting down math problems to only 10 a day?  At least for now?

 

Personally, I would take a break for a bit.  Maybe have him do some Khan Academy for a week or so, at whatever level he wants to work, and just let him do it whatever way he sees fit.  Remove yourself from the equation for a week or so to try and reset.  

 

Then start anew, maybe even with another program, something that is still thinking math but perhaps more interesting for him like maybe Beast Academy?

 

If long division is an issue, you might also look at introducing partial quotient division.  My kids found it easier and they were much more likely to remember all the division steps that way.  Same with multi-digit multiplication.  They did better with lattice method.

 

The bottom line is that if he is crying a lot and having full on meltdowns on a regular basis over math he may develop a lifelong hatred of math.  I would try to do everything possible to keep that from happening.  Have you seen Soror's Relaxed Math thread?  There are TONS of great ideas for approaching math in ways that your child might find less stressful, more engaging, while you both find a healthier, more productive way to handle his issues with writing down steps.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Plateau Mama]

He struggled with learning long division. Took us a couple of months for him to remember all the steps. He now can do long division with no problem. He is not bad at math. He usually picks up topics very easily. He just doesn't want to write the steps out. He knows the steps. He just thinks it's too much work to write them out.

 

He does not struggle with writing. I really think it's more he thinks it's a waste of time to write the steps down. As for cutting problems he only had 8 and he started crying after getting the first two wrong and having to redo them. he only did 2 before I corrected him. I then sat with him the entire time and worked every problem with him. It wasn't that the work was hard for him that made him cry. It was that I wouldn't let him do it in his head (because he was guessing/getting the wrong answers).

 

Yesterday he had 6 problems and blew through them. It melted down when I made him go back and label them all. (Which was simply adding g for grams to all of them.)

[Syllieann]

Try assigning half the problems and telling him that if he shows his work and gets the correct answer the first time he doesn't need to do the other half. If he gets the incorrect answer, he gets to fix it and do an additional problem as well. It will soon become evident that it is in fact less work to show his work. The first day will probably be difficult though.

[Plateau Mama]

Problems 2 & 3 are what sent him into meltdown. I wrote every problem on a whiteboard and had him copy it to his paper and then do the math, while I did it on the whiteboard. I tried just having him tell me but that caused more tears.

 

Never mind. I can't figure out how to resize on my phone. ;-(

Edited January 20, 2017 by Plateau Mama

[ScoutTN]

I might just chill for a bit and play games and do mathy things that are less schooly and stressful.

Check out the relaxed math thread.

Cone back to Singapore in couple of weeks or even next month and see how he is.

[OneStepAtATime]

Is he usually pretty compliant for other areas?

[birchbark]

How well does he know his math facts? Subtraction, multiplication, and division facts must be solid for long division to go smoothly. If these are not rock solid, I would stop and just work on these for awhile. Find a fun program for it.

 

How well can he do short division? That is, division with a single-digit divisor. As per Hunter's suggestion, start with just 2's and 3's as the divisor until the steps become second nature. Find free worksheets online. Then work them together on a little whiteboard.

 

If all of this can be done well, then work on long division problems together. Find another worksheet and do buddy-style math (recommended by a poster here), taking turns doing problems on the whiteboard so he can see it modeled frequently.

 

When you finish a bank of problems, have some ice cream.

 

FWIW, 3rd grade is on the early side for learning long division. If he just cannot do it, wait until next year and try again.

 

ETA: Just read a more recent post by you and realized this answer may not address your issue.

 

Edited January 20, 2017 by birchbark

[Plateau Mama]

Is he usually pretty compliant for other areas?

Super compliant. This is the kid that hid under the bed, on more than one occasion, because the thought he was going to get in trouble. This kid never breaks rules. The only place he ever pushes boundaries is going to bed. (He's a night owl.)

[OneStepAtATime]

Super compliant. This is the kid that hid under the bed, on more than one occasion, because the thought he was going to get in trouble. This kid never breaks rules. The only place he ever pushes boundaries is going to bed. (He's a night owl.)

Then I would be seriously concerned about causing permanent hatred of math.  If he is fighting it this hard, but is normally a compliant child, he is trying to tell you something is wrong with the process.  Maybe he isn't ready for long division.  Maybe he is going through some physiological changes that are taking up most of his resources.  Maybe he has gotten to a point where the idea of writing the steps creates a fight or flight response he is having trouble overriding and is becoming sort of a ground in response at this point.  Maybe he isn't as strong on math facts as he seems.  Whatever is happening, the reaction seems to be strong enough I would assume he just really is not ready yet or at least badly needs a break for a bit.

 

I would consider taking a break from long division.  Seriously.  Sometimes it is a maturity issue.  Take a break and switch gears entirely for a bit.  Don't make this a war of wills and don't make math a hated subject.  Look on Soror's Relaxed Math thread.  See if anything there speaks to you.  Skip math altogether tomorrow.  Tell him you think you both need a break (and you probably both do).  Then do some interesting alternative mathy things next week and perhaps for a few weeks, not just one.  Play some math games.  Maybe get the Charlotte Mason business math stuff and help him run an imaginary business for a while.  In fact, maybe he would do better with long division if he had real purpose for it.  Doing the math required to run an imaginary business might help.

 

Sometimes you gain more by just walking away altogether for a bit or completely shifting how things are approached.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Plateau Mama]

The issue isn't long division. He can do long division. We spent a couple of months doing problems on the whiteboard together.

 

The issue is

1.) showing his work. I don't care if I ask him to write down 1+1 or 36x7. He gets upset having to write it out. I have no idea why. He knows the steps he just doesn't want to write them out. He says it takes too long.

 

2.) he is a perfectionist so he freaks out if he doesn't know how to do something. (In general, not just math. I think this is a maturity issue.)

 

We are on a couple of review lessons. Then I guess we will do fun math till we get back from vacation next month.

[Plateau Mama]

After much research this weekend I purchased this business simulation from https://simplycharlottemason.com/store/your-business-math-pet-store-edition/. We started it today and my son loved it. He begged me to let him do more. We will see if it lasts but it's a start. I figure we will just work as long as he is willing each day.

 

I went thru Singapore and looked at the topics we gave left in 3b and found some hands on activities to teach them. Hopefully he will enjoy those and we can just use the Singapore workbook to make sure he understands the concept after we've played.

[wapiti]

The issue isn't long division. He can do long division. We spent a couple of months doing problems on the whiteboard together.

 

The issue is

1.) showing his work. I don't care if I ask him to write down 1+1 or 36x7. He gets upset having to write it out. I have no idea why. He knows the steps he just doesn't want to write them out. He says it takes too long.

 

See e.g. this thread:  When they won't show work in math?

[wendyroo]

Because he is not getting the correct answers. And even when he does it is taking him a super long time to get the answer. I'm talking things like dividing 743 by 13. Not simple things like 32 divided by 16. If it's an easy problem I don't make him show his work.

 

The struggle is he can no longer do a lot of these problems in his head but he is fighting the "extra" work of showing his work.

 

Have you ever tried ModMath?  He might find that to be a less onerous way of showing his work.

 

Otherwise, if he is really determined to do this type of math mentally, then I would go with that.  When he got one wrong, I would ask what strategy he wanted to use to figure out the correct answer.  If he said mentally, then I would help him talk him through the process.  The more mental math tricks he has in his arsenal, the easier it will be to do more complex problems in his head correctly.  In the long run those mental gymnastics will make him a strong math student...and eventually he will probably get tired of them and come to the conclusion himself that sometimes paper and pencil are better.

 

743 / 13

aka 13 * ? = 743

 

Well, 10 * 74ish = 743 and 20 * 37ish = 743.  

We are looking for a number that is between 74 and 37, but a bit closer to 74 (because 13 is a bit closer to 10 than 20).

 

Let's try 60 since it is easy to work with.

13 * 60 = 600 + 180 = 780.  Close, but a bit too big.  How many extra 13's do we have?

780 - 743 = 37...so not quite 3 extra 13's.

 

So, if we got rid of 3 sets of 13, that would be 13 * 57 (60 - 3), but we don't have quite that much to get rid of, so I expect our answer to be 57 and a bit.

 

To fine tune, 13 * 57 = 500 + 70 + 150 + 21 = 741

So, 743 / 13 = 57 remainder 2, or 57 2/13

 

OR

 

Let's count our way up to 743 by 13's.

 

Let's start with some groups of ten 13's.  That would be 130 per group.

130 + 130 = 260 (or 20 13's)

260 + 260 = 520 (or 40 13's)

520 + 130 = 650 (or 50 13's)

No more groups of 10 13's will fit.

 

Counting up by 13's...

650 (50 13's), 663, 676, 689, 702, 715, 728, 741 (57 13's)

 

We are left with a remainder of 2.

So, 743 / 13 = 57 groups of 13 with remainder 2 = 57 2/13

 

Mental math is not the strategy I would choose for that problem, but different strokes for different folks.  Truth be told, if I was out in the backyard, and suddenly needed to know 743 / 13 for some reason, I don't know whether doing it mentally would be slower or less efficient than walking inside to work it out on paper.

 

Wendy

[justasque]

Not sure what to do. Math everyday is either complaining about how much he hates math or a down right meltdown. He refuses to show his work and tries to do everything in his head. When I make him write out the problem we go into meltdown mode, no matter how easy/hard the problem is. He is not struggling with the concepts. He is knows all his facts. He just doesn't like it.

 

We did Saxon until the middle of 3. - He complained daily of how easy it was. I was bored silly by the repetition and the teacher involvement time.

 

We switched to Math Mammoth. That brought him to tears daily. We quickly switched to Singapore.

 

We did 2a & 2b last year with no issue. Started 3a in the summer. 3b in January.

 

Today we were learning converting pounds to ounces and back. Full blown meltdown. I sat and did every problem beside him but held firm he had to show his work. Once he writes the problem Down he has no problem doing it.

 

So, do I just stick with Singapore tears and all and teach him that he needs to show his work? Do I go back to Saxon which was easy and bored him silly. Or try something new?

 

Help!

 

I feel strongly that unit conversion should be taught using the way it's done in science classes - multiplying by a fraction, which is equal to one because top and bottom are the same amount, and canceling units.  It's much easier to remember, easier to understand, and sets the student up well for success in later scientific work.  It drives me nuts when it's introduced before kids have the skills to do it this way (mainly, multiplying fractions) so I often delay it or teach the basics early so they can use this method.  It's something to consider if you think it's the specific topic that's giving him grief.

 

The key concepts are that (12 inches/1 foot) is equal to one, that (1 foot/12 inches) is also equal to one, that you can multiply any quantity by one without changing the quantity, and that you pick which version of one to use based on what needs to cancel.  

 

So if you have 24 inches and want to convert to feet:

24 inches/1 * 12 inches/1 foot gives you 288 inches^2 /foot, (square inches per foot) which is not what you're going for.  So flip the conversion fraction:

24 inches/1 * 1 foot/12 inches --> the inches cancel, giving you (24*1 feet)/(1*12) which equals 24 feet/12 which equals 2 feet.