TOG vs. Biblioplan heeelp!

[homeschoolwarrior]

This will probably be all over the place because I am about to have a nervous breakdown.  We have been all over the place between Wayfarers, Biblioplan, and TOG, and it is making me a crazy person.  I must decide what history curriculum to use and stick with it.  

 

 

I am down to choosing between TOG and Biblioplan for good.  I have used TOG (LG) for a unit.  I LOVE the "excellence" of it...however... reading the teachers notes isn't happening, and I am not sure it ever will.  It seems like the teachers notes are what ties it all together, so this is a problem.  I keep telling myself I will make the planning and reading the notes happen.  But, I am not sure I want to commit to that for the next twenty years.  And without the teacher notes, the reading list seems somewhat random.  

 

As for Biblioplan, I am worried that it is not as in depth for high school as I would hope.  Somehow the idea of everyone using the same textbook, and the younger kids just not reading as far seems fairly shallow to me.  Is this accurate?  Is TOG head and shoulders more advanced than Biblio?  

 

In all honesty, I want the depth of TOG with the ease and time commitment of Biblioplan.  

 

I think my crisis is actually deeper than just this.  I am torn between wanting absolute academic excellence, and wanting time for learning more practical skills and just being a kid.

 

I don't want their entire childhood to be a pursuit of history knowledge...but I want them to have an excellent foundation.  I would go with Biblioplan in a second if I thought that the highschool level was deep enough.  But I'm afraid maybe it isn't. 

 

 

Any wisdom out there on which to go with??

 

Thanks. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

It sounds like your kids aren't even in high school yet. :) If Biblioplan is more doable for you NOW, and meets their needs NOW, then homeschool the students in front of you, as the saying goes.

 

When you are staring down the barrel of hs'ing through high school, look at your students and see where they are. What are their needs, what are they capable of, what are you capable of...and reassess then.

 

Biblioplan plus the 3Rs and Latin will prepare your children for high school studies with different curricula. You can start fresh with ancients in 9th grade with TOG, if that's your choice, or see what else might fit when you get there.

[Amateur Actress]

What she said! That's exactly what I was thinking.

[homeschoolwarrior]

Thanks a lot for the thoughts.  I appreciate it.  I know what you guys mean.  It might seem crazy though, but we are hoping to avoid curriculum changes down the road if possible.  

 

 

 

[Amateur Actress]

I know nothing about Biblioplan but have used TOG for 6 years. At the LG level, I wouldn't worry about the teacher notes. I believe they are mostly for you to lead discussions with your dialectic and rhetoric student.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Thanks a lot for the thoughts.  I appreciate it.  I know what you guys mean.  It might seem crazy though, but we are hoping to avoid curriculum changes down the road if possible.  

 

That doesn't seem crazy. Many hs'ers like to stick with a publisher or style for the duration, for the sake of continuity and fewer gaps.

 

Strict allegiance to that philosophy makes the most sense in skills areas such as Latin and math.

 

But if you're following a WTM-style, four year history cycle, you still have that continuity and over-arching plan even if you go with a different publisher or booklist at some point.

 

Moving from grammar to logic stage is one natural place for a changeup; making a switch at 9th grade is even more reasonable (especially if you're seeking more rigor for high school than you wanted for grammar and logic stages), and a very common decision.

 

Whatever you do, good luck. :)

[freesia]

Until my ds was in fifth grade, I thought we'd use Sonlight all the way through.  We switched to TOG in sixth.  It was no biggie.  It's okay to switch history and science curriculum.

 

And the teacher's notes are not hard to get through when you have older kids.  I do it during piano lessons. It helps to have another family to do discussion with, though.

 

If your dc are grammar age, don't even worry about TOG.  If you don't want a big financial layout  and want to save your money for "the big curriculum" when your kids are older, I recommend Story of the World with the activity book (and extra books to supplement). Honestly, my lg TOG kids do SOTW and a picture book from TOG--same thing, plus an activity in our group.  There is no way I'd invest in TOG in order to use it all the way through when my kids are small. You just don't know what will happen/turn up/come up.  At this pt, I will probably use it all the way with my 7 year old b/c I have it.  But I still see Sonlight and MFW and HOD as great alternatives (I don't know much about Biblioplan).

[Tess in the Burbs]

My dd is doing Biblioplan with the Advanced materials.  It's very deep.  Schedule is much easier than TOG to follow.  The family guide has discussion materials for each week and we could spend days going through it all.  We try to talk about things not mentioned in the Advanced History book/questions.  

We did SL for 7 years so I understand not wanting change, but my upper middle school my kids wanted change.  I wanted change.  My kids went in different directions for change!  It's all good.  I wouldn't have imagined it way back, and now I barely plan the year ahead b/c as high school kids they have strong opinions that change often.  I'm not saying BP wouldn't be good for all the years, but I think it's depth for high school is worth waiting to do it.  So many options for the younger grades.  BP's Companion makes it unique having that spine book that isn't used elsewhere. 

[bethben]

I thought I was a "for all my homeschooling years" a TOG person. I went through four years and then really wanted to try Sonlight because I felt like my two youngest were lovers of stories.  That went fine and then my #3 ds started 6th grade. Sonlight just doesn't have the dialectic type thinking questions I want my junior high student to complete.   I thought Biblioplan would give us the questions of TOG with not as much intensity.  Let's just say I did the companion for 4 weeks and then tried to salvage it for 3 weeks and then sold it.  The companion is very choppy.  It's like a bunch of little articles all put together into a textbook.  I know a lot of people love it, but we didn't.  So, because I really wanted my dialectic student to have more thoughtful questions, we are now back into TOG.  

 

Here's the thing though....if I had to start over again, I would do SOTW for four years and jump into TOG with upper grammar or even dialectic.  It does shine in the dialectic levels - not as much with the lower ages.  By the time your children are older (I'm assuming they are young), there will probably be something wonderful and exciting that hasn't been developed yet, or at the very least, something will be improved upon.  TOG has improved upon itself since I bought it 8 years ago.  SOTW with the companion guides would be all the history they need right now and it gives you more than enough to study if you get even half of the suggested books or do even one of the projects.  

[Guest]

Most of the ladies who have responded have a lot more experience or more kids than myself, but I did want to respond to a few things you said, from my perspective. Our background - I wanted TOG from Day 1 of our homeschooling. I kept listening to the side that says it's not necessary for younger kids and in the meantime, spent a million dollars on every other stinkin' curriculum out there, lol. We finally halfway bit the bullet last year (3rd & 5th grade) and are going full speed this year (4th & 6th grade) with it. Love, love, love it. I don't think I saw ages listed for your kids, so I'll try to respond as best I can:
 

reading the teachers notes isn't happening, and I am not sure it ever will.  It seems like the teachers notes are what ties it all together, so this is a problem.  I keep telling myself I will make the planning and reading the notes happen.  But, I am not sure I want to commit to that for the next twenty years.  And without the teacher notes, the reading list seems somewhat random.

 
I don't always get to reading the teacher's notes. That is a challenge for me.  I don't think it is completely necessary under dialectic. UG readings here consist a lot of SOTW, so sometimes I'll only get to reading those readings. Someone suggested to me reading the dialectic discussion questions, as an alternative. Also, I wouldn't look at that being your commitment for the next twenty years. As the kids get older, yes, you as the teacher is going to need to be aware of what they're learning with any classical/CM-style curriculum. With Biblioplan you're going to need to do some reading, too, you know? But the TOG teacher notes will be the same every go-round. It may be overwhelming at first, but after we cycle through a time or two, it's going to come back to us. At the very least, there is a general info page at the beginning of each week that I would think would help you see all the reading tie together a bit. I don't know that I see them being random choices.
 

Is TOG head and shoulders more advanced than Biblio?

 
 Here's what I've come to think after trying all of them out. I do not think that TOG is superior to Biblioplan, BUT...and this is a big BUT....TOG has so much information for me, and it's all in one place. Whether or not I utilize it is up to me. But, when we did Biblioplan, I did not have the Companion, and I wonder if maybe that is comparable to the TOG Teacher's Notes? I love the buffet of TOG and picking out what we use. Biblioplan just didn't wow me. I had a much harder time pulling it together. I also personally did not love the book selections as much. I felt that the TOG book selections were much broader.
 

In all honesty, I want the depth of TOG with the ease and time commitment of Biblioplan.

I don't want their entire childhood to be a pursuit of history knowledge...but I want them to have an excellent foundation.  I would go with Biblioplan in a second if I thought that the highschool level was deep enough.  But I'm afraid maybe it isn't.

 
I've seen this time and time again - but really, is there that much of a difference? TOG lays out the books for the week. My UG student gets reading assigned to her each day. (10 min to pull the books and assign pages per day.) My UG/Dia student - I pull the books, if I want him to go over any questions with me, I copy/paste from the loom to a worksheet and boom. (Let's say 30 min.) I print them each a map assignment, and their literature worksheet. (15 min.) I mean, really, an hour tops. Now, you may say that is longer than you would spend on Biblioplan, but does Biblioplan have discussion questions, maps, and literature worksheets? They may now, and if so, you would still need to print/copy them and pull out all the books. Actual planning time  is not that different. What about all the Teacher's Notes from TOG? Well, they are to equip you to have conversations with your kids. I don't know that I saw that element as being planned out  with Biblioplan. Could it be there? Absolutely. Are you going to need to make the time to study and prepare for that? Absolutely. So, no, I don't think TOG is heads and shoulders above everything else. No, I don't think TOG takes so much more time that anything else. It just lets you know up front that in order to have the deep discussions, this is what is needed. Can you do TOG without deep discussion and teacher studying? Absolutely. There are weeks where I say, man I hope my kids learned something this week! And on the flip side, I'm thinking Biblioplan does now have a lot more of the components that TOG has, that they didn't use to. For that argument, I'd say that I like all my stuff in one binder (TOG) vs. multiple book and some being online and some being paper.
 

I am torn between wanting absolute academic excellence, and wanting time for learning more practical skills and just being a kid.

 I have been in this spot, as well. I tend to like to put my head in the sand and just work, work, work. So, this is what has worked for us: the rest of our work is not super teacher dependent. That has made our actual school day a lot smoother. (i.e. I don't do a literature based science, an investigative math, super in depth LA, and TOG. I wanted to spend time planning our humanities and literature with TOG so the rest gets pre-planned for me.) Now, we could do all that education stuff, but then we're missing the social stuff. Currently, my kids are out two full days socially, and I plan 4 days of school. They do have to do schoolwork at some point on either one or both of those social days. There is no way that I can do all the educational I want, and all the social. But, I think you can do TOG and still fit other life in. ;) TOG is as much or little as you make it.

 

So, all that being said, if you prefer Biblioplan, then yes, I think you can get out of it what you can get out of TOG. Biblioplan is scheduled, but all the materials are not in one place. TOG is not scheduled per se, but everything you need is right there. I think that's why TOG worked for me. 
 

[Guest]

Thanks a lot for the thoughts.  I appreciate it.  I know what you guys mean.  It might seem crazy though, but we are hoping to avoid curriculum changes down the road if possible.  

 

I just wanted to say that IF it does so happen that you have to change, don't be too hard on yourself. And don't try to force something that isn't working, simply to stay the curriculum course. Perhaps something simply to file away for the future, that you might never need to think about. But it sometimes happens to the best of us.......best laid plans and all. 

 

I adore TOG. I mean LOVE it. I wish I had found it from the very first minute of homeschooling. But, my daughter ended up wanting to do something different for high school. She likes the interaction of online discussion with other kids. She is a humanities kid, but Roman Roads offered her something that TOG could not (I had zero desire to do a TOG co-op), so we changed course and went with it for 9th grade. And that change happened over a summer. She took her first online course last summer and went "Hey, can I take some more of these?" and so it happened. I still have my beautiful TOG, waiting patiently on a shelf, and I plan to use it with my younger kids when the middle one hits 1st, or 2nd grade. I even go look at the DE sometimes for activity ideas now for the littles. But, for now, as far as a curriculum it's shelved. And I'm okay with that. TOG is awesome, but there are a LOT of high school humanities programs that will blow your mind. It's one area where offerings are not lacking at this time, and they're only getting better from the looks of it. Who knows what will be out in five years? 

 

Anyway, my point isn't to bore you with my story, but just to say keep an open mind as your kids approach high school. Things change so much and so fast, you really just can never tell where you will end up. People cautioned me here not to buy too far ahead and I'm very glad I followed that advice. You might have a humanities hater, or a STEM kid who will want to spend their time on science or math and just wants a get 'er done history program (which TOG is not, even on it's best day).....so just keep that in mind before you buy everything now. Plus, sometimes it's fun to change things up for a semester even if not permanently. :) 

[Upennmama]

I am a dyed in the wool TOG user. However, in your situation, I think I would simply use SOTW and buy the activity and quiz books. Then I would go through them in a similar way to TOG, and use the picture book and craft suggestions from the activity book. I think those are 100% adequate for elementary years, and lay a good foundation. Then I would start with TOG in Year 1 again in 5th grade, and circle back through the cycle, adding detail and analysis as things get more challenging. 

[mamamoose]

If you don't have the companion with Biblioplan you are missing the meat of it. In my opinion, you need the companion, family guide, and discussion guide...you can get by without the cool history and make your own questions with the discussion guide if you desire. I have not used TOG, but I am enjoying biblioplan and just purchased next year, so I am all in. I think with the outside readings the companion is in depth enough for high school, and too much for younger ages, but there is a new book available for years 2&3 called Remember the Days and we are excited to give that a shot next year! I was tempted by TOG and may rethink it when my oldest is in high school...and I will have the great reference of the Companion for any extra! :)

[G5052]

It's good that you are thinking ahead, but honestly I'd pick what works for you now.

 

I personally liked TOG, but it wasn't getting done.  

 

We went back to Sonlight and then made other choices in middle school and high school. My kids are close in age, and that worked well for me without stressing me.

 

We never used Biblioplan, but it always seemed much easier to use than TOG.

 

The big thing for me is that they got chronological history, not that it fit into a perfect 4-year cycle. And we did that! My last one graduates in June.