Frustration

[PeterPan]

I don't know how I would get anything other than a basic hearing test done. It's all any of my children have had.

 

As I said before, I have found previous Speech & Language assessments very limited and I wouldn't know how to go about getting a more involved evaluation.

 

Audiobooks aren't something that I have ever properly introduced to the children. Personally, I don't like them, I'm an avid book reader and don't really like the idea or someone else's voice in my head painting the picture for me but I know a lot of people enjoy them, and I had brought the idea up but DD never actually listen to one. I think I will try to get her to try one and see if she changes her mind.

 

Going the private route for evaluations/assessments is something I am reluctant to do as I have more than one child that may need them in all honesty, I don't think I could afford to do all that I would need to do.

 

Just because something was hard for *us* or uncomfortable for us doesn't mean we don't want to help our kids have that skill. Have you thought about whether you have some auditory defensiveness or trouble following auditory or language issues yourself that make it hard to listen to audiobooks? I'm that way. I don't visualize very well when I listen, and I don't actually remember anything I hear. I have to WRITE things to remember them. But think about that. If she's not visualizing well, you could work on visualization. There are programs, but you can even just talk about it and work on it a bit. (keep your eyes closed while I read the paragraph, try to visualize what I'm reading, then answer my questions) That's the jist of the method. Visualization is really important for comprehension, and it's a good learning strategy also. You can do it with other things like lists, items on a table, etc. 

 

Do you find there are times she doesn't seem to understand directions or things you're saying? For instance, ds had a stage where it was obvious he didn't understand wh-words. There's an age/stage when things are normal, and then there's a point where your gut is like whoa this ought to be going better by now.

 

Yes, being very literal is part of your social thinking and language development. Usually, in language testing they will run tests for figures of speech and idioms, to try to gauge where the dc is relative to their peers. That's frustrating that you might not be able to get access to this. It just seems kind of barbaric. I always assumed care in the UK was differently funded but still equivalent or reasonable. This, however, is just barbaric. Feel free to come to the US and get proper evals and care, mercy.

 

These are some of the tests they could run. Maybe when you know the names you can ask around and find someone doing these?

 

the CELF

‎www.pearsonassess.ca/content/dam/ani/clinicalassessments/ca/programs/pdfs/CELF-5-objectives-descriptions_cdn_lr.pdf  

 

the CASL

‎images.pearsonclinical.com/images/pa/pdfs/casl5.pdf

 

And for something very autism-specific, something like the VB-MAPP

The VB-MAPP Set: The Verbal Behavior Milestone Assessment & Placement Program

 

Believe it or not, you can buy the VB-MAPP testing materials on amazon and do them yourself. You might see what you can find. I know I've seen them on the US amazon site. With the VB-MAPP, the testing list also becomes the intervention roadmap.

[OneStepAtATime]

With regards to audio books, I think there are a lot of variables involved as to whether a particular person does well with them. I tend not to like audio books myself.  I much prefer print.  However, on long drives or when listening with my kids I have found I have been able to train my ear to hear while my mind still creates the pictures I would normally see if I were reading myself.  I even frequently see the words in print even though I am just hearing them.  I still prefer books.

 

DD does not do well with audio books.  In fact, she hates them.  I think they move too fast for her to process what is happening (low processing speed).  She prefers to read on her own or for me to read to her (I tend to pause a lot, just for a second or two, or to read more slowly during especially difficult passages to help her catch up, but I wasn't even conscious I was doing it until after evaluations.  I guess I was just subconsciously adapting to DD.).

 

DS?  We got him a Kindle a couple of years ago and he burned through book after book.  He loved it.  He had liked when I read to him but he rarely ever voluntarily read any books on his own.  We didn't realize how much effort he was having to put in with all of his issues.  He is incredibly bright but was feeling cut off and isolated because he couldn't read like he wanted to.  The kindle was the perfect solution while we worked to help him remediate his issues.  It was small enough he could carry it easily from place to place and his headsets (NOT earbuds) stayed firmly in place so he could here clearly and still hang out with family but not disturb others that might be working on something else.  It also freed his hands to work on building things with legos or whatever else.  He tends to need to move for things to process.  Having a selection of books for him to choose from gave him a sense of control, too.  He thrived.  It also has helped him to stay closer to his peers with regards to exposure to vocabulary/concepts/grammar/etc. without it falling on my shoulders for all of his reading input.

 

I say give it a go.  Although she can read, and comprehension is the issue not decoding apparently, audio books might help some.  Also, she can repeat the stories as many times as she likes.  I know that I pick up more, process more details, when I have read something more than once.  It may take time for her to get used to audio books, by the way.  Try not to let your natural bias affect her perception.  Audio books may help her a great deal with giving her exposure to great reading material (fiction and non-fiction) while you work on helping her with comprehension.  Book series may be best.  After the first book the characters and setting are more familiar and she won't have to start at square one.  In fact, you might start a series together as a read aloud then get the audio book version of the next book in the series for her to listen to.  If she likes the series she might want to share with you what happened in the next book.  Let her.  Let her process through what is happening and share what she can.

[manicmum81]

Just because something was hard for *us* or uncomfortable for us doesn't mean we don't want to help our kids have that skill. Have you thought about whether you have some auditory defensiveness or trouble following auditory or language issues yourself that make it hard to listen to audiobooks? I'm that way. I don't visualize very well when I listen, and I don't actually remember anything I hear. I have to WRITE things to remember them. But think about that. If she's not visualizing well, you could work on visualization. There are programs, but you can even just talk about it and work on it a bit. (keep your eyes closed while I read the paragraph, try to visualize what I'm reading, then answer my questions) That's the jist of the method. Visualization is really important for comprehension, and it's a good learning strategy also. You can do it with other things like lists, items on a table, etc.

 

Do you find there are times she doesn't seem to understand directions or things you're saying? For instance, ds had a stage where it was obvious he didn't understand wh-words. There's an age/stage when things are normal, and then there's a point where your gut is like whoa this ought to be going better by now.

 

Yes, being very literal is part of your social thinking and language development. Usually, in language testing they will run tests for figures of speech and idioms, to try to gauge where the dc is relative to their peers. That's frustrating that you might not be able to get access to this. It just seems kind of barbaric. I always assumed care in the UK was differently funded but still equivalent or reasonable. This, however, is just barbaric. Feel free to come to the US and get proper evals and care, mercy.

 

These are some of the tests they could run. Maybe when you know the names you can ask around and find someone doing these?

 

the CELF

‎www.pearsonassess.ca/content/dam/ani/clinicalassessments/ca/programs/pdfs/CELF-5-objectives-descriptions_cdn_lr.pdf

 

the CASL

‎images.pearsonclinical.com/images/pa/pdfs/casl5.pdf

 

And for something very autism-specific, something like the VB-MAPP

The VB-MAPP Set: The Verbal Behavior Milestone Assessment & Placement Program

 

Believe it or not, you can buy the VB-MAPP testing materials on amazon and do them yourself. You might see what you can find. I know I've seen them on the US amazon site. With the VB-MAPP, the testing list also becomes the intervention roadmap.

Oh I 100% have trouble following things when listening to them. I have to write things down to understand them. When I work with the kids, if they come to me with an issue I can't listen to them tell me a Maths problem or whatever, I have to look at the book/worksheet and make sense of it myself. My eldest gets frustrated with me, she always complains and says 'why do you have to come and look? Don't you just know?'. Even if I DO know, seeing it helps clarify that I'm correct.

 

I have been working on the meaning of words since she can sometime spell words but not know the definition. Also I find if I explain things and it has too many steps she just gets this look and I know she is lost but she'll be nodding or saying yes like she understands.

 

There is a reason why when people have very sick kids/relatives they fundraise money to go the US or other places in Europe. The NHS is a great idea and something we depend on but it's pretty basic to meeting everyday problems. Did you break something? We can fix it. Need meds? We can do that, but when it comes to mental health, learning disabilities, things along those lines we are pretty behind the times. Whenever I am on forums and read about all the things you guys test for and have in the US I'm kind of lost. I've never heard of half the things you can get your children checked for.

 

I'll take a look to see if I can find the things you've mentioned.

[manicmum81]

With regards to audio books, I think there are a lot of variables involved as to whether a particular person does well with them. I tend not to like audio books myself. I much prefer print. However, on long drives or when listening with my kids I have found I have been able to train my ear to hear while my mind still creates the pictures I would normally see if I were reading myself. I even frequently see the words in print even though I am just hearing them. I still prefer books.

 

DD does not do well with audio books. In fact, she hates them. I think they move too fast for her to process what is happening (low processing speed). She prefers to read on her own or for me to read to her (I tend to pause a lot, just for a second or two, or to read more slowly during especially difficult passages to help her catch up, but I wasn't even conscious I was doing it until after evaluations. I guess I was just subconsciously adapting to DD.).

 

DS? We got him a Kindle a couple of years ago and he burned through book after book. He loved it. He had liked when I read to him but he rarely ever voluntarily read any books on his own. We didn't realize how much effort he was having to put in with all of his issues. He is incredibly bright but was feeling cut off and isolated because he couldn't read like he wanted to. The kindle was the perfect solution while we worked to help him remediate his issues. It was small enough he could carry it easily from place to place and his headsets (NOT earbuds) stayed firmly in place so he could here clearly and still hang out with family but not disturb others that might be working on something else. It also freed his hands to work on building things with legos or whatever else. He tends to need to move for things to process. Having a selection of books for him to choose from gave him a sense of control, too. He thrived. It also has helped him to stay closer to his peers with regards to exposure to vocabulary/concepts/grammar/etc. without it falling on my shoulders for all of his reading input.

 

I say give it a go. Although she can read, and comprehension is the issue not decoding apparently, audio books might help some. Also, she can repeat the stories as many times as she likes. I know that I pick up more, process more details, when I have read something more than once. It may take time for her to get used to audio books, by the way. Try not to let your natural bias affect her perception. Audio books may help her a great deal with giving her exposure to great reading material (fiction and non-fiction) while you work on helping her with comprehension. Book series may be best. After the first book the characters and setting are more familiar and she won't have to start at square one. In fact, you might start a series together as a read aloud then get the audio book version of the next book in the series for her to listen to. If she likes the series she might want to share with you what happened in the next book. Let her. Let her process through what is happening and share what she can.

Although she can read, she can't do it with ease and therefore avoids it as much as possible. I have offered her more simple books, with large font and less pages but she calls them baby books and doesn't want to try but in my mind it's preferable to her not reading anything at all. She simply can't manage age appropriate books, they're too wordy and she either won't know what a decent portion of the words mean or can't pronounce them correctly which makes her feel stupid.

 

I have mentioned audiobooks to her this evening and she agreed to give them a try.

[MomatHWTK]

The publishing company Remedia Publications has lots of high-interest low difficulty reading materials. I also found some of the tips in the book Reading Rescue 1-2-3 to be very helpful. We all do what we can for our children and that's OK. 

[PeterPan]

DD does not do well with audio books.  In fact, she hates them.  I think they move too fast for her to process what is happening (low processing speed).  She prefers to read on her own or for me to read to her (I tend to pause a lot, just for a second or two, or to read more slowly during especially difficult passages to help her catch up, but I wasn't even conscious I was doing it until after evaluations.  I guess I was just subconsciously adapting to DD.).

 

 

Has she tried them with noise blocking headphones, like really good phones? Sennheiser makes a pair. They're like $70 on amazon. 

[PeterPan]

Although she can read, she can't do it with ease and therefore avoids it as much as possible. I have offered her more simple books, with large font and less pages but she calls them baby books and doesn't want to try but in my mind it's preferable to her not reading anything at all. She simply can't manage age appropriate books, they're too wordy and she either won't know what a decent portion of the words mean or can't pronounce them correctly which makes her feel stupid.

 

I have mentioned audiobooks to her this evening and she agreed to give them a try.

 

Yes! You want to see if the issue is limited to vocabulary (common in dyslexia, a side effect of not getting as much language input) or a larger language issue. I will tell you that my ds has that issue, where technically he he can decode at a level that should enable him to read, but he shies away from reading. I've corresponded with Barton quite a bit, and we're convinced it's a language issue. When he was younger and we began Barton, he was literally a hyperlexic dyslexic. Look up hyperlexia and autism. He was reading beyond what he could comprehend. He could read a page and have NO CLUE and not even be able to answer simple questions.

 

So when we figured out what was going on there, we did language intervention. We literally stopped doing Barton, began intervening on language with those materials, and he started reading environmental print, etc. It was astonishing. So I thought oh, we're fine, proceed with Barton again. Well many months later, we're at that same point, where he's shying away from reading the next step. He can, he just won't. And from what Barton is telling me that is *not* a dyslexia pattern. For him, it's an autism thing, part of the language issues. 

 

Yes, trying audiobooks again will give you a lot of information! Remember, some kids are complex. You may have to consider how auditory processing, etc. is affecting this. She may need to try them with headphones or in a limited distraction environment with nothing she has to discriminate. She might do better with things in her hands to do while she listens. Do you remember the old read alongs? Well you can still buy those with cd or get them through the library. You can also do what's called immersion reading, where the software highlights the words as the audio plays. Amazon does this with some of their stuff. Look up whispersync and immersion reading. 

 

So yeah, even if she tries it and has problems, it's going to give you some data. The audiobooks were great for my ds' vocabulary but didn't solve the other language problems. And that's kind of hard to sort out without testing. :(

[PeterPan]

I have been working on the meaning of words since she can sometime spell words but not know the definition. Also I find if I explain things and it has too many steps she just gets this look and I know she is lost but she'll be nodding or saying yes like she understands.

 

There is a reason why when people have very sick kids/relatives they fundraise money to go the US or other places in Europe. 

 

And it's not that I'm trying to bash your beloved homeland. It just makes me ANGRY, because people are over here saying THAT is what we should have!!   :confused1:  And yes, it's not a perfect system, but in our country every child has a basic protection in federal law to have their disabilities that affect their ability to access their education identified. You might have to fight, spend a year or two trying, etc., but it's actually a federal level, legal right. There's a case at the Supreme Court RIGHT NOW over IEPs and how far schools have to go in providing benefit. Like can they write an IEP that is just adequate, or do they have to go farther? These are things our country cares about. 

 

So yes, if you want to come to the US, we'll cheer for you!   :hurray:  For real, the language testing we're talking about would take 3-4 hours plus another hour to write a report. The SLP here would bill for 4-5 hours, and they're usually $80-100 an hour where I live. The ps will do some level of testing for free, or you can do it privately and have them spend more time. Our ps here does the CELF, and while I haven't watched it done, I don't think it takes as many hours as the CASL. So then you're talking even less time. And for vocabulary scores, I think we got that as part of the DRE the reading tutor did. That was like $75 here to get a DRE and CTOPP. That's not subsidized in any way or paid for by insurance. Those are just private, call on the phone and you can get them, costs. And costs do vary by part of the country, but I think our costs here are probably kind of median, not as bad as say NY and not as low as some areas.

 

What's really hard on the directions.  :glare:  For my ds, that was the language issues from the autism. What I did was go through Super Duper and another site, Linguisystems, and search for everything they had tagged as being possibly good for autism. Then I looked at samples for things and went ooo, that would be hard for ds. Sort of convoluted, but it worked. You have a pretty good mother gut sense of where she's at and intuitive connection. I think if you look at samples you'll probably know.

 

There are some other strategies people use if, for instance, the issues are low working memory or auditory processing. I've described in detail on the boards some ways we worked on working memory. If her working memory is low, that would make it really hard to *hold* the thoughts and steps in her brain. Working memory is sort of the scratch pad or RAM of the brain, so it makes it harder to get things into long-term memory when working memory is low. You could weave some work on this into your day. It would be good for EVERYONE in your group! With my ds, we worked on it lots of ways but in little bursts. We especially liked working on it kinesthetically. It can be very fun! :)

 

Repeating back the instructions can be a good strategy with APD issues and working memory issues. If her working memory is low, just repeating back the instructions will help stretch it. If she's having trouble with APD, it gives her another chance to process the language. And that doesn't cost anything. :)

[OneStepAtATime]

Has she tried them with noise blocking headphones, like really good phones? Sennheiser makes a pair. They're like $70 on amazon. 

She has but it has been a while.  In school she hated audio books so much that when I had her try again as a middle schooler with better head sets she was still very resistant.  At the time we had other fish to fry so I didn't push too hard.  

 

In fact, I am looking at revisiting the audio books with noise canceling headsets (those are the type DS uses) this semester since there are so many materials we need to cover and there is only so much time in the day.  Reading aloud takes more time and when she reads silently she needs frequent breaks.  She is more mature now, and recognizes that sometimes we have to try things outside our comfort zone to find ways to make it work.

[PeterPan]

She has but it has been a while.  In school she hated audio books so much that when I had her try again as a middle schooler with better head sets she was still very resistant.  At the time we had other fish to fry so I didn't push too hard.  

 

In fact, I am looking at revisiting the audio books with noise canceling headsets (those are the type DS uses) this semester since there are so many materials we need to cover and there is only so much time in the day.  Reading aloud takes more time and when she reads silently she needs frequent breaks.  She is more mature now, and recognizes that sometimes we have to try things outside our comfort zone to find ways to make it work.

 

You were working on evals. Did they ever get an explanation for these challenges?

[OneStepAtATime]

You were working on evals. Did they ever get an explanation for these challenges?

You mean with regards to the audio books specifically?  Low processing speed was offered up as a potential issue.  I still suspect CAPD but the neuro said she didn't think so.  

[kbutton]

manicmum, I wanted to chime in with a  :grouphug: . I have a late-identified, not overly needed ASD kiddo and a second one with hard to pin down issues, including speech-language stuff/CAPD. Hang in there!