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Can we talk jumping through hoops vs. CC? (UC related)


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I am just feeling really down/frustrated by the idea of jumping through UC hoops.  I am realizing that it is actually compromising my plans for my son's enriching high school experience.  It's expensive, and frustrating, and stressful.  

 

Finding online UC approved classes, paying for AP classes and then taking, and studying for AP and SAT Subject tests, this all just seems to frustrating and stressful for my son.  We are spending 5K per year on his online classes that fulfill A-G requirements.  That's almost enough to pay for CC here. 

 

Many times the classes that are UC approved are worse than what we would get at CC, and don't have the depth of Christian content we would like if he chose his own courses (which he would be able to do for at least one more year if we don't bother with UC requirements), and some are downright lame.   

 

I am not talking about DE because that falls under the category of the smorgasbord of paths-to-UC. We would definitely USE DE as part of my son's choices to fulfill uC requirements,

 

but this post is about CC and transfer VERSUS Fulfill UC Requirements.

 ... the good community college that has the classes my son needs, is more than 25 minutes away by highway.  It would not be wise to allow a new driver to drive there by himself, with our traffic and poorly designed highways.  (bad signage, terrible on/off ramps that merge several highways at the same time, long rainy season and severe congestion)  So if my son did to the CC-Transfer route, starting at CC in 11th grade and going 2 or 3 years and then transferring, I would have to drive him at least the first year, or it would be about 1 hour and a half by bus, one way.  

 

My son likes the idea of going to college as a freshman.  He is fairly hardworking and motivated BUT he does whatever is in front of him. He does not plan more than a few days ahead for anything in his life and he certainly doesn't care to research UC requirements or worry about any of that.  We will find out if he tests well this year as he is taking an AP and a SAT Subject for Biology.  So far I have always planned to make my decision based on how he does this year.  If he does great on these two, then I figured it's obvious he has the power to get through the rigorous testing required to fulfill A-G requirements.  I figured, if he does poorly, then it's a sign that we need to go the CC and Transfer Route.  

 

But now I am thinking it would be so nice to design our courses the way we want, and for him to take the courses that he wants, in the time frame that he wants, starting in 11th grade. And who knows?  Maybe we would find a carpool parent going from our neck of the woods over to the good CC. 

 

I just hate it that high school has to be this way.  :(  He really wants to eventually get to Cal Poly or UC Davis, and honestly the private U's are so unbelievably expensive....even if he got scholarships or the job of his dreams he would be laden with astronomical debt.  

 

 

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UCs have gotten so incredibly competitive, kids who get into them have all racked up an impressive record of AP scores. I think that even for PS kids, who don't technically have to worry about fulfilling A through G since all of their PS classes would qualify, end up needed to proove themselves with AP exams.

We are in the same situation.

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Exactly.  My son really wants to go to Cal Poly (due to their excellent offerings of allergy free food station and on-campus store for GF food as well), as well as the fact that he likes the way their Comp Sci is designed...

 

BUT even Cal Poly is getting so competitive...I know kids that only took about 4 AP's but their SAT Scores were much higher than I anticipate my son's will be...and then I know kids that were so afraid not to make it they took up to 12 AP courses (from Tiger families, had no life, went on drugs to finish high school,not a good thing at all) but still....and then I also know kids from the local high school that took about 7 or 8 AP classes, which seems to be pretty common.  That's a lot!  That's one in 9th and then 2 or 3 every year thereafter! 

 

Sorry you're in the same boat.  But, you make a good point.  If he wanted to get in as a freshman he needs plenty of AP's anyway to prove himsself.

 

WHICH gets me back to my original point that maybe CC and Transfer is really just a happier way to do it! (Except the distance issue we have)...

 

 

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I can sympathize. Other than CC classes, we did not bother with UC approved classes (and proudly included our beloved, much enjoyed home made ones on the application too!). I wonder if this could be a red flag of some kind to the UCs. I don't see why but the part of me that worries about everything worries about this.

 

I think the CC-UC or CSU transfer route is much less stressful and can work really well for some kids. It was the route that I thought my son would take before he changed his mind (after doing some quick, possibly not deep enough research, but I'm okay with that). Over the last year, my son has managed to befriend a few very motivated CC students who were very excited about transferring to UC/CSU/other unis. And some of my local friends are considering the same thing after seeing the amount of stress involved with the freshman route.

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We will go the UC transfer route because it is just so much less stressful; and frankly quite often our own courses are indeed of better quality than UC approved ones. 

 

We do know several homeschooled students who transferred into a UC without any trouble. A close friend of ours applied to four UC schools including Berkeley and UCLA. She was accepted at all of them and chose to attend UCLA. She is in her second year at UCLA (her senior year) and loves. Btw, she also never took the SAT.

 

On the flip-side we have very good friends whose son applied to several UC school and Cal Poly. He went to a public high school, took some AP courses and did pretty well. He was not accepted into any of the schools he applied to. They did offer him a spot at a UC school he didn't apply to and didn't want. He is now attending the CC to get into Cal Poly.

 

So, yes, the UC freshman requirements are just too stressful for us.

 

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I will just have to keep praying about it and plugging away.  Thank you for your thoughts and commiseration again!!!

 

AND yes, Quark, wow we do know a lot more than apparently they knew here on the boards in 2011.  I think UC's have made it clear what they want, at least.  We can be thankful for that.

 

Susie- you plan to have your dc attend CC after four years of high school it looks like?  

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We are going the straight to 4-year UC school route, if possible. So we are going the onerous A-G approved route. Have you filled out a pretend UC application though? It's odd, b/c as homeschoolers (without your school pre-populating its courses in the dropdown menu), you end up just noting all the courses you have - they don't have a checkbox per se, saying yes, this is A-G approved. With that said, we are covering all our bases. Mostly with SAT II & AP tests. A few A-G approved courses to round out classes where I feel we need some less rigor... But I do believe there is room for a more holistic approach - the UCs I spoke with did seem very flexible. My guess, just have a good smattering of AP exams, SAT II, SAT/ACT scores to show measurable success, to prove your mommy grades. 

 

And I think I was the one who mentioned Cal Poly SLO. Because we live near-ish, we approached them at a college fair back in november. They (or at least whoever was there), was the least helpful of the UC schools we approached regarding application as homeschoolers. I can't remember all the details, but something about all the courses must be A-G approved (I think maybe they said they won't look at SAT II or AP tests)... anyway, it was enough for me to note in memory, do not apply there. But that was just my take, from this 1 particular admissions representative. I was just rubbed the wrong way. But Cal Poly SLO didn't really interest us either, so no big deal. So don't take my word for it - explore it and I'm sure it will prove my first impression wrong.

 

I want my kids to go straight to a 4-year uni. It's what my DH & I did, and I think it's a great growth/learning experience. So we're shooting for that personally - and we'll see how it goes. Only 9th grade here... ;)

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Calming Tea, mentioning this in case you have not thought about it...

 

If you are still considering the freshman route and considering letting your son DE in 11th and 12th, some of my friends have seemed to have had luck validating home-made 9th-10th courses with AP/ DE harder 11th and 12th grade courses. Geometry is one of the courses you cannot validate in this way though. So for example, instead of AP-ing everything, take a smattering of AP classes, maybe 3, 1 in Math, 1 in English and 1 in a Lab Science in 11th/ 12th to validate classes you do at home in the earlier grades. Then, the SAT subject tests could be in History and another science or perhaps, Math 2. That way, you minimize all the testing.

 

You do want to consider though that the UC GPA calculates courses from summer of 9th to summer of 11th. A large number of home-made courses can dilute the UC GPA but campuses like Berkeley and UCLA are apparently more holistic in the way they assess GPA. Like last year, Berkeley sent out invites again this year for supplemental info which tells me that they want to give applicants more opportunities to shine.

 

And as mirabilis suggests, take a stab at pretend applications, both freshman and transfer, when they become available in August 2017 (too late for this cycle). I learned so much in that first round!

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I want my kids to go straight to a 4-year uni. It's what my DH & I did, and I think it's a great growth/learning experience. So we're shooting for that personally - and we'll see how it goes. Only 9th grade here... ;)

 

I agree with the bolded but unfortunately 4 year universities, even public ones, have gotten so much more expensive than when we were in school. I wish that we could afford a traditional 4 year residential college experience but unless our kids win merit scholarships somewhere, that's not realistic for us financially. :(

 

I don't even know if we can afford 2 years residential at UCLA if my oldest gets in as a transfer student. We live within commuting distance of Berkeley but that doesn't offer the major that interests her like UCLA does.

 

I hate that my kids are probably going to need to do the CC-and-transfer route simply because of the cost savings.

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Crazy how different a world it is for college in just 20 short years! I'm shocked it's all changed so much. Again, we're just going on a hope & a prayer.... There is so much scholarship money out there- so many of these kids on these boards seem to be offered full-rides. We're hopeful something great will happen and it will all work out. With that said, going the CC transfer route (spending an extra 2 years at home) is really not that much different - as you'll still get the 4-year uni experience by going in your junior year. My brother went that route, and he was just as 4-year uni as me, who went straight on. If transferring, remember the kids are only 19-20 or so, so still so young to go off and spread their wings. Again, I'm just hopeful and we'll see what we see. 

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Oh & as for hoop-jumping, I've been OK with the A-G hoops - as it's given me a structure with which to follow for my ds. Before now, we were just sailing on a breeze. Elementary & middle - all was well. But I felt he was beginning to float a bit aimlessly beginning in 8th. So having these goals in mind, these so-called hoops to jump - it's given us a very concrete roadmap, and a rigorous one at that. This particular kid can handle it - we'll see how all the testing goes. We have high hopes and lofty goals insofar as AP classes go - trying to round out 9 by junior year! By HSing them though, I feel we can nicely weave in the easier with the harder, choose providers based on this or know when to do them at home, to create a reasonable courseload. I still feel he's not got nearly as much work as a local PS kid would have - so I know we're pushing, but not too hard. And he's met the challenge so far.

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We are also in the same boat with my 9th grader. We are shooting for the acceptance as a freshman, but I do realize that while DD is a pretty strong student, she may not be good enough for UCLA, which is her first choice at the moment, so she may be forced to try the transfer route. Of course, it may all still change, and she may decide she can't be happy without some East Coast college, but so far we are doing the hoop-jumping, and except for the ceramics class she is taking this winter, all the choices are pretty strong. We are not planning on any AP classes at this point, just SATs, DEs and AOPS online, although sometimes I worry that it is not a good decision.

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We're also in CA and would like our kids to go to school here. After considering all the UC Hoop jumping, etc... we are definitely more inclined to go the CC route. It provides us the opportunity to explore areas of interest to a greater extent without becoming overly stressed with taking X number of AP classes, SAT Subject Area tests, on and on. We are also in bike riding distance to the CC which is very appealing. 

 

We have friends whose kids have gone direct and other who went the CC to uni route. Both are doing well and enjoying their experiences. For all the headache involved with trying to go direct, I'm just not seeing cost-benefit ratio as a favorable one for us. A friend's son actually got accepted to CalPoly engineering as a freshman. But he opted to go the CC route anyway and ended up transferring there later. The family was able to save money while the son continued to pursue his academic goals.

 

That's not to saying going direct is a bad thing. Its just not a necessity from a college grad perspective. As someone who works for a large technology firm and is on the hiring team, I can honestly say we could care less if candidates started from a CC or not. What matters far more is their experiences gained while in college including internships, part-time relevant work, side projects, etc... Those are the kinds of things that employers care about. So I guess I am biased in that way when looking at the longer term goals of college, namely to get a job in one's field of interest. There are a number of roads young college students can take to achieve the same goal.

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Every now and then the topic comes up about the faireness of CA guaranteed UC transfer agreements since it's so hard to get into them as a freshman and so easy to do as a junior.

I will mention though that the top three UCLA, UC Berkeley, and UCSD don't guarantee the transfers, but others still do.

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Every now and then the topic comes up about the faireness of CA guaranteed UC transfer agreements since it's so hard to get into them as a freshman and so easy to do as a junior.

 

Students who have earned an associate's degree have a proven track record of success at the college level. High school seniors are more of a risk. I'm sure many of us know people who did fine in high school but wound up not being able to hack it academically in college & dropped out after only a few semesters. 

 

As a taxpayer, I'd rather subsidize the cost of CC classes for students with iffy qualifications than UC or CSU classes. The ones who do well should be rewarded by having an easy transfer path to a UC/CSU to finish up their bachelor's.

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Students who have earned an associate's degree have a proven track record of success at the college level. High school seniors are more of a risk. I'm sure many of us know people who did fine in high school but wound up not being able to hack it academically in college & dropped out after only a few semesters.

 

As a taxpayer, I'd rather subsidize the cost of CC classes for students with iffy qualifications than UC or CSU classes. The ones who do well should be rewarded by having an easy transfer path to a UC/CSU to finish up their bachelor's.

That's a different issue. I am talking from kids' perspective. My boss had a hard time getting his daughter to work hard in high school because she decided there was no point to it since CC transfer was so easy. He had a different background - 4 year elite U, and wanted his daughter to follow his footsteps, but she made a compelling argument. Why study day and night for all those APs when you can simply start at CC and transfer and get yourself a good night sleep throughout four years of high school. Somebody who picks a rigorous high school path and studies twice as hard really ends up in the same classroom come junior year.

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I thought some more about this post and decided to articulate DS's position and reasons for choosing the freshman path first (if denied from UCs he wants to go to, he will apply again as a transfer next year). So often on these boards we talk about personal goals and addressing the needs of the child in front of us. To me, the transfer path seemed much easier and DH felt so too. But we were not the ones doing the actual work, the actual homework and milling about with CC students every day (son took CHSPE and can take classes as a full time student).

 

Why the freshman path was DS's first choice:

  • Choice of major - math. Theoretical/ research/ pure. If he had chosen to become a math teacher it might have been different. Every person we spoke to with a math major child who was also interested in research strongly recommended applying as a freshman and having the full 4 years to create more research opportunities and strong contacts. Not that transfers cannot do this but in campuses like Berkeley, UCLA, etc., we are not talking about small math departments where every prof will get to meet every student possibly at least once. We are talking about a huge campus and a larger department. I think this is also where drive comes to play. DS has drive but is not the type of hungry, ambitious person to go seek out opportunities at every chance he gets. The four years will help him grow into that (hopefully).
  • Personality - math but not STEM. See although DS loves math, he is not a typical STEM student. He is focused on math but not only on math. He loves dabbling, trying, exploring and many of his other loves are in the liberal arts (literature, theater, languages). He has enough credits, if accepted, to have junior standing at UCs and could graduate in 2.5-3 years. Having the extra time will help him explore more offerings at the UC and could possibly lead to a second major.
  • Age - and grad school. DS is in a weird position of preferring friends who are much older and looking old enough but also being his age in many ways. If he transferred now, he would be 16-17 when graduating. He is also too bored with CC to wait longer to apply. If he applies next year as a transfer, he will graduate at 17-18 and for teens, every year makes a big difference. He plans to go on to grad school and I would prefer him going slightly later if possible rather than sooner.
  • Challenge - DS has started taking extension classes at our local UC and saw for himself the difference in level of challenge. He also sat in on a UC class he has already taken at CC and told me that the pace was SO different. What CC took one semester to cover was covered in about 6 weeks at the UC (possibly less). The prof for that class where he sat in was Denis Auroux. Although DS liked his CC prof, both the prof and the level of engagement from the class was very different between both venues.
  • Intensity - this is my reason, not DS's. Going in as a transfer, especially if with a younger student (as I think Calming Tea is considering?) would mean hitting the ground running in junior year. Freshmen are allowed a slightly lower load their first year to ease into their studies and new life. For DS, who has been working SO hard for the last 4 years, I really wanted him to have the option to take it a little easier if he wanted to. Campuses like Cal offer very fun 1-unit classes that are so right up his alley. I wanted him to have time to take these classes and seminars. If UCs accept all his general ed credits, he wouldn't have to take gen ed classes anymore other than one or two graduation requirements. He could really immerse himself in all sorts of interests there. This was SO appealing to me.

In the end though, the transfer application really is so much simpler. In DS's case though I also realized we would have had a harder time presenting both the high school section and the college credits section in the applications since he is double dipping so much. This is due to his age and desire to go early. If a student is going at the regular age/ later, it should not be a problem.

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BTW, still early days to whether or not this is an acceptance but a UC prof contacted DS directly a few days ago. She had reviewed his academic record (but possibly not his entire application) and reached out to him to make sure he applied to their school-within-a-school research-friendly program where she felt he would fit in much better vs the general college of Letters and Sciences math program.

 

It's one of the mid-tier UC campuses and it might not even be an acceptance but I thought it significant enough to mention here in case it helps someone. I did not know any UC campus or department does this. Half of DS's math classes are from unapproved sources, about 2 of those unschooled and the rest are CC and UC classes. He, therefore, has a-g compliant classes but also many that are not (including geometry) and we thought it interesting that she reached out to him.

Edited by quark
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Quark, I wish I could "like" your post several times.

In my limited experience (mostly watching my relatives and friends attend local CC), the classes are at best high school intensity. We will take some during high school years, but I feel the transfer route will rob us of two years of real college level education even if it's cheaper and easier to go that route. I really hope we can afford a four year University when time comes.

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Quark, I wish I could "like" your post several times.

In my limited experience (mostly watching my relatives and friends attend local CC), the classes are at best high school intensity.

 

Aw, thanks! :001_smile:

 

The CC level really depends so much on department, prof, and fellow students. DS prefers engaging directly with the prof but has been pleasantly surprised by the level of engagement and even direct challenge from fellow students in the non-math classes. In the math classes, he is very obviously the most interested student but in the non-math ones, he is one of a few and he has really liked that because it finally feels like he is with peers. Unfortunately, these students are still fewer at the CC. When he took his Extension class at Cal with other full time freshmen/ sophomores, he took the honors section which was a much smaller group. That was the experience that cemented his decision to apply early. The difference in attitude, engagement, speed in picking up errors if the prof  made them or even just pointing out another way to approach the question -- he did not see that at all in the CC math majors (all of DS's CC math classes were calculus and up). He saw it with one CC student for Calc 3 but that student was a fellow high schooler taking it as DE.

 

So one more thought...if it all manageable and if DC is ready and willing, take a core subject UC Extension class on campus if your DC can and try it in 10th/ 11th grade if 9th is too early. It can help point your DC towards whether or not it is worth jumping hoops, taking a-g courses and generally putting in the effort necessary to apply to UCs at all. Extension classes on campus do fill up too because priority is given to FT students but some sections (usually the honors ones or the ones that start at 8am) can have a few seats open.

 

ETA: btw, for us UC is also the best choice financially. He could go all 4 years and stay in dorms and we could still manage it without too much stress (I'd have to work part time for happier results but hey, I'd love that for myself too). If he stays for 2 years at home and commutes like he says he wants to, we save even more.

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Also wanted to add that some CC classes, depending on CC and prof, are way above high school level. Unless high school students study many supplementary critical essays, do lots of peer review, attend talks given by visiting profs by special invitation etc. Unless their music department exposes them to Grammy award winning teachers and performers on a regular basis. This and more might be true at pricey private highs and very good public schools in elite districts but good CCs might do this regardless of district. Choose a prof carefully and CC can be an amazing deal for the money.

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That's a different issue. I am talking from kids' perspective. My boss had a hard time getting his daughter to work hard in high school because she decided there was no point to it since CC transfer was so easy. He had a different background - 4 year elite U, and wanted his daughter to follow his footsteps, but she made a compelling argument. Why study day and night for all those APs when you can simply start at CC and transfer and get yourself a good night sleep throughout four years of high school. Somebody who picks a rigorous high school path and studies twice as hard really ends up in the same classroom come junior year.

The difference, of course, is that someone who takes rigorous classes all along has a better education than if they did not.  This in turn makes it more likely that they will be more successful in subsequent classes, and more likely to finish uni and to finish strong with a good GPA and be more competitive in the job market come graduation.  

 

We sometimes chose honors over AP, or "college prep" over honors for our kids, but always thoughtfully, with an eye towards both a do-able course load but also which classes offered useful skills and prep for subsequent work. In the case of subjects that likely wouldn't be revisited in uni, we sometimes chose a higher level class than we would have otherwise, because it would be the dc's terminal class in the subject.  

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Oh & as for hoop-jumping, I've been OK with the A-G hoops - as it's given me a structure with which to follow for my ds. Before now, we were just sailing on a breeze. Elementary & middle - all was well. But I felt he was beginning to float a bit aimlessly beginning in 8th. So having these goals in mind, these so-called hoops to jump - it's given us a very concrete roadmap, and a rigorous one at that. 

 

We feel the same way. I LOVED homeschooling our own way all through elementary and early junior high, but by 8th grade... same thing.  My dd has thrived on the AP courses she has taken, and I even ended up designing and teaching a couple of her AP courses as well.  Mind you, this is coming from someone who greatly resented the intrusion of the college board and college application requirements. Okay, still not a fan of the college board, BUT taking the AP courses and having to take the SAT tests has given my dd a chance to rise to the occasion, something I could not have provided her alone.

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That's a different issue. I am talking from kids' perspective. My boss had a hard time getting his daughter to work hard in high school because she decided there was no point to it since CC transfer was so easy. He had a different background - 4 year elite U, and wanted his daughter to follow his footsteps, but she made a compelling argument. Why study day and night for all those APs when you can simply start at CC and transfer and get yourself a good night sleep throughout four years of high school. Somebody who picks a rigorous high school path and studies twice as hard really ends up in the same classroom come junior year.

 

While it may be true that they *can* end up in the same classroom come junior year, this child may be missing out on learning valuable study habits.  She may also be missing out on the intellectual satisfaction that comes from taking challenging coursework.  

 

CC is definitely a better choice from a $$ perspective.  The amount of money that can be saved makes it tempting.  For some degrees, however, it is important to start making those UC connections early on, as research positions necessary to gain admittance for advanced degrees can be limited and students who have already proven themselves have a better chance at getting them.

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BTW, still early days to whether or not this is an acceptance but a UC prof contacted DS directly a few days ago. She had reviewed his academic record (but possibly not his entire application) and reached out to him to make sure he applied to their school-within-a-school research-friendly program where she felt he would fit in much better vs the general college of Letters and Sciences math program.

 

It's one of the mid-tier UC campuses and it might not even be an acceptance but I thought it significant enough to mention here in case it helps someone. I did not know any UC campus or department does this. Half of DS's math classes are from unapproved sources, about 2 of those unschooled and the rest are CC and UC classes. He, therefore, has a-g compliant classes but also many that are not (including geometry) and we thought it interesting that she reached out to him.

Is it the College of Creative Studies? I would think if a prof thought your son would be a good candidate, an acceptance to the campus is highly likely. Good luck.

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Is it the College of Creative Studies? I would think if a prof thought your son would be a good candidate, an acceptance to the campus is highly likely. Good luck.

 

Yes! He was going to apply anyway and was in the middle of writing his letter of intent when this email came through. A very nice surprise! It could be a very good choice #2 for him if we could swing a move to SB (he wants to commute from home for a bit and why we might decide to move together). Thank you, it surely did feel validating and helped break up the monotony/ worrying about the long wait to hear back.

 

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CC is definitely a better choice from a $$ perspective.  The amount of money that can be saved makes it tempting.  For some degrees, however, it is important to start making those UC connections early on, as research positions necessary to gain admittance for advanced degrees can be limited and students who have already proven themselves have a better chance at getting them.

 

Someone who is aiming for a PhD. and a career in academia is going to have different pros and cons from someone who will likely go to work after the bachelor's and then maybe do a professional degree a bit later on. PhD.'s are often fully funded including a stipend for living expenses so it's less important to save money on the UG degree, while professional degrees don't usually offer much in the way of funding.

 

My 2nd child I could see perhaps going the PhD. route since he loves all things STEM. My oldest I see as more likely going the professional degree route.

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Regarding the quality of courses at the cc vs the University....

 

I do believe that this depends largely on the department, the course, the professor and which CC (or University) the student attends. I have heard this go both ways from a number of students who have transferred. I know students who did indeed find the courses at the University level much more difficult than at the CC. I also know students who see it the other way. One friends' daughter actually called her to tell her Mom what an awesome preparation the CC courses had been. The courses at the University were easier. In short, this can go either way.

 

Having said all that two other (imo) important points are:

 

1. When you transfer in as a Junior you are now taking Junior level classes. They should be more difficult than the courses at the CC. The CC doesn't offer that level.

 

2. How the students deals with the work load is something that can be scheduled. I think that often students who take the transfer route take too few courses per semester. Then when they transfer they experience a work load shock. This can be prevented by treating the CC as a full work load option as well. Of course, this is just my humble opinion from what I have seen.

 

In the end we all need to do what's best for own students.  :-)

 

 

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This has been such a great thread as usual.

 

Well, I guess it'll be up to my son.  Right now plan is lots of AP's only one or two DE's (for VAPA and maybe Calc) and 5 or 6 AP's....

 

But this year is the test.  He is a programmer and should pass the programming test with flying colors.  He is also taking the Biology Subject Test.  If he does well on those, we will proceed forward the same way next year (planning for freshman entrance.) And he will take another AP or Subject Test to test the waters again.  

 

If he does poorly and/or is really stressed out about it, we will go the Transfer Route.  

 

I think it'll be option A for this kid, but time will tell.  

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Quark, I wish I could "like" your post several times.

In my limited experience (mostly watching my relatives and friends attend local CC), the classes are at best high school intensity. We will take some during high school years, but I feel the transfer route will rob us of two years of real college level education even if it's cheaper and easier to go that route. I really hope we can afford a four year University when time comes.

 

For me, it's not (solely) about the education of college. It's about the 4-year uni experience. It was second to none for my husband & I. You get to be a kid, but a pseudo-grown-up. Like Quark said, starting early (and for the full 4 year she-bang), you have tons of time to dabble and experiment and see what your passions are. That's the main reason for our desire to send our kids to 4-year right out of the gate. The experience, the maturing, the growing up, even the socialness of it. 

Edited by mirabillis
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But this year is the test.  He is a programmer and should pass the programming test with flying colors.  He is also taking the Biology Subject Test.  If he does well on those, we will proceed forward the same way next year (planning for freshman entrance.) And he will take another AP or Subject Test to test the waters again.  

 

 

Your ds is younger than 9th grade, right?

 

We're doing the same. This year is putting our toes in the water. Well, we've jumped in with both feet. We've got 3 AP courses (APHUG, APGOPO, AP CS) and then also Biology Subject test. (Are you teaching this or outsourcing?)

 

Then next year, plan is to do 3 more APs and maybe 2 SAT-IIs (math & doubling up on AP Chem)

 

But again, we're rolling the dice for this year... Go Yahtzee!

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Your ds is younger than 9th grade, right?

 

We're doing the same. This year is putting our toes in the water. Well, we've jumped in with both feet. We've got 3 AP courses (APHUG, APGOPO, AP CS) and then also Biology Subject test. (Are you teaching this or outsourcing?)

 

Then next year, plan is to do 3 more APs and maybe 2 SAT-IIs (math & doubling up on AP Chem)

 

But again, we're rolling the dice for this year... Go Yahtzee!

Same idea, but I didn't see any reason to test the AP / Subject Test waters in 8th grade.  My ds is 9th grade.  

 

Also, I allow ds to do a lot of the planning and make decisions, and I don't think he wants to do that many AP's.  But, it's the same idea.  

 

See how he does and then proceed.  I don't see any reason to relegate him to the CC-Transfer route or to the Freshman route so early, until we get a gauge on his test taking abilities and stress level.

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There's actually a third option I've seen which is a bit more similar to Quark's approach. Although, let's face it. Quark's DS is off the charts in terms of advanced abilities for his years. But the pattern could still be used by other students as well. I think Regentrude's DD took a similar path. The other option is to take enough college credits during High School that 'going directly' to the university is really a hybrid with so many college credits to start with. I've known quite a few families with kids who've graduate high school with the equivalent of an AS/AA degree. So while they are considered Freshman from a college admission's standpoint, they really have enough credits to qualify as a junior in standing. One friend's daughter in particular got her associates degree in parallel with her high school diploma and received a full scholarship to Cal Poly SLO. 

 

In some ways this third approach may sound harder than the multi AP, subject matter tests path. But for some it is a more appealing and interesting alternative which is also more easily done while homeschooled. Having that many college courses under one's belt at such an early age also sets the student apart from the more traditional high achiever high school pack, of which there are many.

Edited by dereksurfs
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There's actually a third option I've seen which is a bit more similar to Quark's approach. Although, lest's face it. Quark's DS is off the charts in terms of advanced abilities for his years. But the pattern could still apply for other students to a degree. I think Regentrude's DD took a similar path as well. The other option is to take enough college credits during High School that 'going directly' to the university is really a hybrid with so many college credits to start with. I've known quite a few families with kids who graduate high school with the equivalent of an AS/AA degree. So while they are considered Freshman from a college admission's standpoint, they really have enough credits qualify as a junior in standing. One friend's daughter in particular got her associates degree in parallel with her high school diploma and received a full scholarship to Cal Poly SLO.

 

In some ways this third approach may sound harder than to multi AP, subject matter tests way. But for some it is a more appealing and interesting alternative which is also more easily done when homeschooled. Having that many college courses under one's belt at such an early age also sets the student apart from the more traditional high achiever high school pack, of which there are many.

I read that AP scores are more sought after than DE by some schools, because it's easier to compare one kid to another and harder to know the quality of a particular class taken. So maybe for UCs that isn't the problem, but when kids try for different options (maybe some reach schools, some UC...), then it becomes harder to seek out a strategy. And for those of us who won't know exactly where we land because finances are a big part of the equation, the flexibility is even more important.

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I read that AP scores are more sought after than DE by some schools, because it's easier to compare one kid to another and harder to know the quality of a particular class taken. So maybe for UCs that isn't the problem, but when kids try for different options (maybe some reach schools, some UC...), then it becomes harder to seek out a strategy. And for those of us who won't know exactly where we land because finances are a big part of the equation, the flexibility is even more important.

 

I think it really depends on the schools. APs are becoming so 'standard' now with somewhat inflated associated GPAs that I think it has also diluted their overall uniqueness in helping students stand out. As a result I've heard they are becoming less important/impressive than other factors. 

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I think it really depends on the schools. APs are becoming so 'standard' now with somewhat inflated associated GPAs that I think it has also diluted their overall uniqueness in helping students stand out. As a result I've heard they are becoming less important/impressive than other factors.

But getting a 5 on an AP exam isn't that easy. A lot of kids might take the classes, but not all of them stand out.

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Quark, I wish I could "like" your post several times.

In my limited experience (mostly watching my relatives and friends attend local CC), the classes are at best high school intensity. We will take some during high school years, but I feel the transfer route will rob us of two years of real college level education even if it's cheaper and easier to go that route. I really hope we can afford a four year University when time comes.

 

 

Also wanted to add that some CC classes, depending on CC and prof, are way above high school level. Unless high school students study many supplementary critical essays, do lots of peer review, attend talks given by visiting profs by special invitation etc. Unless their music department exposes them to Grammy award winning teachers and performers on a regular basis. This and more might be true at pricey private highs and very good public schools in elite districts but good CCs might do this regardless of district. Choose a prof carefully and CC can be an amazing deal for the money.

 

Right, another factor here is the quality of the local high school. Our local high school (the one in our town) sucks, and our CC (in the nearby county seat) is very highly regarded. So if you aren't lucky enough to live near a very good high school, with great teachers and lots of good AP options, that can be yet another reason for the CC route to be more desirable.

 

ETA: somehow I left out the word "sucks" which materially changed the meaning of my post - oops

Edited by Chrysalis Academy
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But getting a 5 on an AP exam isn't that easy. A lot of kids might take the classes, but not all of them stand out.

AP scores do not have to be reported during the application process. Kids can have AP courses listed on their transcript with an A in the course and a 1 on the exam, and many universities will not know. Some schools ask students to self-report scores, but students are not told they have to submit official scores like SAt/ACT and subject test scores.

 

Some top prep schools have stopped offering AP courses. I don't know I would go so far as to say they are seen as less valuable, though. Many schools see them as a way of signaling dedicated student. But I do think that other ways of demonstrating top competitive academics are being also becoming more common.

https://ww2.kqed.org/mindshift/2012/08/08/is-it-time-to-reconsider-ap-classes/

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AP scores do not have to be reported during the application process. Kids can have AP courses listed on their transcript with an A in the course and a 1 on the exam, and many universities will not know. Some schools ask students to self-report scores, but students are not told they have to submit official scores like SAt/ACT and subject test scores.

 

Some top prep schools have stopped offering AP courses. I don't know I would go so far as to say they are seen as less valuable, though. Many schools see them as a way of signaling dedicated student. But I do think that other ways of demonstrating top competitive academics are being also becoming more common.

https://ww2.kqed.org/mindshift/2012/08/08/is-it-time-to-reconsider-ap-classes/

For my homeschool, APs will be the easiest way to validate what we do not just in terms of UC admissions, but also in terms of mommy grades.

Homeschoolers around here have beautiful transcripts, but most people I meet do half of what I would require for a class. It's hard to objectively show achievement (yes, national awards come to mind, but not all of our kids can be that elite) without some sort of standardized exams. While we don't plan on AP everything, I think a good mixture of those and SAT2s can persuade admissions people that my transcript isn't just "my kid is the best" paper, a syndrome quite widespread in what I can see IRL.

I have relatives who take math classes at local CC. I would rather stay with aops and then take an AP exam than sign my kid up for those classes. The quality difference is huge! I also think we can do more with staying our own course with Great Books approach that attempt local CC English, which also seems to me completely lacking. I am hoping upper level classes (beyond what is typically covered in HS) or introductory ones are better, and we will try those in time. There is no one way for sure.

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For my homeschool, APs will be the easiest way to validate what we do not just in terms of UC admissions, but also in terms of mommy grades.

Homeschoolers around here have beautiful transcripts, but most people I meet do half of what I would require for a class. It's hard to objectively show achievement (yes, national awards come to mind, but not all of our kids can be that elite) without some sort of standardized exams. While we don't plan on AP everything, I think a good mixture of those and SAT2s can persuade admissions people that my transcript isn't just "my kid is the best" paper, a syndrome quite widespread in what I can see IRL.

I have relatives who take math classes at local CC. I would rather stay with aops and then take an AP exam than sign my kid up for those classes. The quality difference is huge! I also think we can do more with staying our own course with Great Books approach that attempt local CC English, which also seems to me completely lacking. I am hoping upper level classes (beyond what is typically covered in HS) or introductory ones are better, and we will try those in time. There is no one way for sure.

I am not disagreeing with you. I am just pointing out that when dereksurfs made the comment that APs are not necessarily the top way of standing out bc of the prevalence that the comment was not totally off mark. It is the attitude that many top prep schools have. That is a shift in attitude from a decade ago. 2004 a select few schools started grumbling. 2016 the numbers have grown. There have been quite a few articles about it.

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 I also think we can do more with staying our own course with Great Books approach that attempt local CC English, which also seems to me completely lacking. I am hoping upper level classes (beyond what is typically covered in HS) or introductory ones are better, and we will try those in time. There is no one way for sure.

 

This assumes a student willing to work for mom or the budget to outsource to tutors/online courses. For the cost of a single WTMA course, I can enroll my child in 14 credits' worth of courses at the CC. For the price of a single CTY online course, I can enroll her in 34 credits' worth of CC courses.

 

I had to outsource because I was getting too much pushback and non-compliance from my child. She is willing to work for her CC professors in a manner that she had stopped being willing to do for me. I know it's a fairly common developmental phase and why many HSers put their kids into B&M schools in 8th or 9th grade. Our local PS is terrible (no honors or AP classes until 11th and a gang problem) and we don't have the budget for private.

 

I can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.

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This assumes a student willing to work for mom or the budget to outsource to tutors/online courses. For the cost of a single WTMA course, I can enroll my child in 14 credits' worth of courses at the CC. For the price of a single CTY online course, I can enroll her in 34 credits' worth of CC courses.

 

I had to outsource because I was getting too much pushback and non-compliance from my child. She is willing to work for her CC professors in a manner that she had stopped being willing to do for me. I know it's a fairly common developmental phase and why many HSers put their kids into B&M schools in 8th or 9th grade. Our local PS is terrible (no honors or AP classes until 11th and a gang problem) and we don't have the budget for private.

 

I can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good enough.

We have to teach the kids we have.
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