Latin Centered NOT the book.

[Hunter]

Just after Y2K, there was a developing Latin Centered movement that predated the book Latin Centered Curriculum; Memoria Press was in its infancy. Some of that movement fizzled after the publication of the book LCC. Those that were not defined by the book were left without the very label they had created. I know I felt like I had no other choice but to drop my signature, that I had been using before the book was even written, never mind published, when it was used so extensively in the book.

 

My youngest graduated. His education was more Greek focused than Latin, anyway. I moved onto tutoring mostly ESL and LD students. I had other things to focus on.

 

But, now, over a decade later, as I'm taking a very serious look at what Latin Centered means, I just thought I would throw it up as a topic of discussion.

 

Talking about LCC and Memoria Press is fine, but they are NOT always what I am talking about at all. I'd like to disregard the boundaries set by MP, both restrictions and permissions. I'd like to look far beyond what they offer for sale.

 

What is a Latin Centered Education? Is it a good model of education in 2017? What are the costs in time, money, etc.?

 

What is Latin centered history? Rose Williams wrote a set of two history books that span ancient history through the reformation. I got each of them for a penny, but they have not come in yet.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Romulus-Augustulus-Roman-History-Millennium/dp/0865166919/ref=pd_bxgy_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0865166919&pd_rd_r=8RP00YAMNQRQNQD1HZD8&pd_rd_w=K6OhA&pd_rd_wg=kiLzP&psc=1&refRID=8RP00YAMNQRQNQD1HZD8

 

https://www.amazon.com/Rome-Reformation-European-History-Millennium/dp/0865167184/ref=la_B002HD8NBQ_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1483296191&sr=1-8

 

What would work after this set? Who are the Latinists that come next? What is THEIR story?

 

Is Latin centered different than Western centered? How so, in ways narrower, wider, and just plain different?

 

How does math come into this? Are there lesson delivery styles used in Latin instruction, that are going to be similar for math, and attractive to Latin centered teachers and students? Does intensive Latin instruction eat up time, money, and bookshelf space that otherwise might be devoted to math?

 

With a heavy Latin background, does that change science instruction in any way?

 

Composition--is there anything about Latin centered that automatically suggests using a progym style composition curriculum? What are our options for progym beyond some very pricey time consuming leveled curricula?

Edited January 1, 2017 by Hunter

[PollyOR]

There was a Yahoo Group that had some good discussions.  I think they might have fizzled out too.  I've pulled a blank and can't remember my password. 

 

LatinClassicalEd

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/LatinClassicalEd/info

It was started in 2004.  It is inactive but I believe there are some good discussions archived there.

Edited January 1, 2017 by PollyOR

[Bics]

I am currently using mp with my 1st and 3rd graders, but I am having difficulty resting in the curriculum into high school because I am uncomfortable spending so much time on Greek/Roman/Middle Ages history to the almost exclusion of all else. I am just getting my feet wet with Norms and Nobility, but already I found the germ of what is bothering me--paraphrased, the author states that "classical" is not based in a certain time, but instead should be a method that is based on inquiry, curiosity, etc. So, I am hoping to see some more ideas where others before me have used a broader range of books, with good results. I do think that would have repercussions in all areas, Hunter--math and science included. However, I have no idea what that would look like right now beyond murky, muddled thoughts. What I WANT is to focus on Spelling/reading in English, then begin Latin Grammar, get us reading in Latin beginner stuff in two years, and then begin Greek grammar while we read Latin originals to study history.Then, in a few years, we would begin reading in Greek. Rather than spending ears in English translations that everyone who can read theboriginals swear are inferior, just do the hard work and get to the originals--and then actually freeing time in high school to read important works in English, also--. Is this a pipe dream? It is how the Grammar schools used to work in this country...I like delaying math formal work until 9years old, to make time for skills in observation (science) and speaking and reading proficiency, and handwriting fluency. I think Bible memorization and poetry should be huge chunks of our week.

I look at Ambleside reading schedules and drool for high grades--

[wapiti]

Just throwing out my likely-unhelpful two cents...  I wonder if your use of "Latin Centered" means something very similar to "Classical education" as I would refer to it (as opposed to neoclassical) and whether, at some point in this quest, you may cross paths with the long history of Jesuit education.  Or, maybe I misunderstand the context of your questions; are they about educational philosophy, practical application, or both?

[SarahW]

I am currently using mp with my 1st and 3rd graders, but I am having difficulty resting in the curriculum into high school because I am uncomfortable spending so much time on Greek/Roman/Middle Ages history to the almost exclusion of all else. I am just getting my feet wet with Norms and Nobility, but already I found the germ of what is bothering me--paraphrased, the author states that "classical" is not based in a certain time, but instead should be a method that is based on inquiry, curiosity, etc. So, I am hoping to see some more ideas where others before me have used a broader range of books, with good results. I do think that would have repercussions in all areas, Hunter--math and science included. However, I have no idea what that would look like right now beyond murky, muddled thoughts. What I WANT is to focus on Spelling/reading in English, then begin Latin Grammar, get us reading in Latin beginner stuff in two years, and then begin Greek grammar while we read Latin originals to study history.Then, in a few years, we would begin reading in Greek. Rather than spending ears in English translations that everyone who can read theboriginals swear are inferior, just do the hard work and get to the originals--and then actually freeing time in high school to read important works in English, also--. Is this a pipe dream? It is how the Grammar schools used to work in this country...I like delaying math formal work until 9years old, to make time for skills in observation (science) and speaking and reading proficiency, and handwriting fluency. I think Bible memorization and poetry should be huge chunks of our week.

I look at Ambleside reading schedules and drool for high grades--

 

This is my understanding of traditional classical (as opposed to neoclassical). The grammar years are spent learning languages, so that in the upper school the students could use those languages to learn content. And not just history or literature either. Reading Euclid or Newton required proficiency in Greek and Latin. We've side-stepped (mostly) that issue today, people who went through the old system added on to Euclid and Newton and we have their results in English now. So, then, we can say "oh, well in that case we should just change grammar school to mean learning the `language` of everything" and we get to neoclassical.

 

I see the value in both points of view, but I do have more sympathy for language-early/content-later. But for me languages also includes a modern language or two as well, also starting early. I don't know how it will work out in the end (living in an immersion environment gives a different level of experience), but as a guiding philosophy I'm just rolling with it. I have the LCC book, and I poke around on the MP website, but...I use very little recommended by either. But I still feel I'm in the same stream as them.

[Rosie_0801]

 to make time for skills in observation (science) 

 

That has to be so much more intentional for us than it was for kids in the past. Back then it was playing, now it seems to be work.

[Hunter]

I guess in my head, right or wrong, I've got about 4 overlapping methods in my head:

 

1. Neoclassical

 

2. MP and LCC the book

 

3. Traditional classical as defined by Climbing Parnasssus and the Classical departments of universities

 

4. Purely Latin-centered. Not even classical language centered, but LATIN centered. Not traditional classical, but LATIN centered, taking a long hard look at what ancient and medieval classical practices are part of being LATIN centered and which of those carry on to a modern LATIN centered Curriculum, beyond being included in a history lesson. I'm not sure what this is. It is this last overlapping, but sometimes different idea I'm trying to wrap my head around.

 

The Hebrew language laid mostly dormant for almost 2000 years. Then bloomed into a modern language. Latin never went nearly as dormant as Hebrew. It also has not been resurrected as a national language, but maybe some day it will be. It has only been the last couple decades where the Roman Catholic Church has been using Latin less and less.

 

Latin is a beautiful language. Beautiful in a way that no other language is beautiful to me. We do have MODERN books translated into Latin. Winnie the Pooh, Dr Seuss, Beatrix Potter, Diary of a Wimpy kid, etc.

 

Who have been the post-reformation Latinists? What is their history? How have they lived around the world? Who is left? Is Latin dead? Is it too beautiful to ever die? Is the language beyond any one culture to claim?

 

I absolutely don't want MP to define this discussion of Latin-centered. They are a PART of it only. Latin-centered homeschooling predates them. Yes most of your pre-Y2K and early Y2K Latin-centered homeschoolers had similar ideas to MP, but not ALL. There was more being discussed.

 

A Latin literature course. What has been written and translated into Latin since the reformation?

 

At one point, Greek was so widely spoken that Romans spoke Greek. Paul was a Roman citizen but wrote his New Testament Epistles in Greek. At some point, Latin became more widely spoken that Greek as an international language. It is just a gorgeous LANGUAGE. I wonder what aspects of the LANGUAGE were responsible for it overtaking Greek as an international language.

 

Maybe I'm just babbling about nothing. But my brain is kind of busy right now, trying to process a lot of information through a new lens, of what does LATIN-centered really mean. Big and little. For example teaching classical mythology with primarily the Roman names and story twists, rather than the Greek ones, and maybe celebrating the major Roman holidays. For this type of stuff, public school teachers have more to offer than the homeschool market.

 

Homeschoolers are quick to let publishers and sellers define methods and ideas. I just think at this point, the masses are closing their eyes to some ideas. I think the homeschool MARKET is flooded with PRODUCTS and we have stopped thinking for ourselves. We are letting products that some of us cannot even afford to guide and define us. MP is a store like Walmart. I might want to buy something from them, but they don't get to define Latin-centered.

 

Babbling. I know I'm probably babbling. But my mind is busy, and I babble when it is busy, and often at you guys.

[EmseB]

Homeschoolers are quick to let publishers and sellers define methods and ideas. I just think at this point, the masses are closing their eyes to some ideas. I think the homeschool MARKET is flooded with PRODUCTS and we have stopped thinking for ourselves. We are letting products that some of us cannot even afford to guide and define us. MP is a store like Walmart. I might want to buy something from them, but they don't get to define Latin-centered.

 

 

Having been to a couple MP conferences, I would be reluctant to say that they are trying to define Latin-centered education via their products.  I think they (the founders) were looking for a Latin education and created one for their children. Of course their definition will dominate their products, but I think they are trying to provide one point-of-view, not mandate what all the rest of us do.  Their interest is helping people provide that education to their kids at home, but MP is based from a school-centered curriculum.  MP exists because Highlands Latin School was started based on a few motivated people wanting a Latin school for their kids.  Does that make sense?  I think it's an important distinction because MP came out of a school environment, and the guides/etc are still mainly geared towards classroom use.  The guidance MP provides is how to flex those things into a Latin-centered curriculum at home.  So I think, obviously, they would say that provide a Latin-centered curriculum, and they would say that their own curriculum is their idea of the best way to implement a Latin-centered curriculum.  But I don't think they would say that their path is the sole definition of how a Latin-centered curriculum could be employed.

 

I do see how homeschoolers tend to latch on to a certain publisher, though, and then feel like they must defend their choice with a certain dogma about how it is the best or the definition of some movement.  I think that rarely publishers actually claim this themselves.

 

As someone who uses MP I can say that I have not stopped thinking for myself.  Rather, I spent a lot of time researching and thinking about what I'm capable of at this point and went with a box that best fit my philosophy of education and what my kids are capable of.  Interestingly, even with a boxed thing, I can still use the materials in ways that are different or tweaked for each kiddo without too much trouble.

[wapiti]

My share of babbling:  I'm not a MP fan myself (my vague sense of the Latin offerings are too boring, too long, too focused on the wrong things), but it's just another option; more options = better.  I would put MP into my neoclassical basket.  But I'm not even a homeschooler and only barely ever was, so...

 

If you are meaning "Latin centered" to be something more than traditional Classical education, more than, say, the focus of a University Classics major, then I doubt there is a precedent for that.  Are you interested in reviving the language itself?  I suppose there are Classical clubs where Latin is spoken and in most metro areas one can still find a Latin mass, but...what's a Latinist?

 

Ask yourself what kind of context you are looking to come from Latin, beyond Latin being a language/mode of communication.  I doubt there is a Latin angle for math unless you consider what is awesome (IMO) about the study of Latin and see how we can find that in math.  That part is easy:  the taking apart and putting together of puzzles within a system of communication, a.k.a. problem solving.  I can't imagine that it would be helpful to study math in a second language (Latin) rather than a first language (English).

 

As for literature, again babbling off the top of my head, well-educated authors of certain times were often taught composition in Latin.  You may appreciate this wiki entry, New Latin:

 

As the 18th century progressed, the extensive literature in Latin being produced at the beginning slowly contracted. By 1800 Latin publications were far outnumbered, and often outclassed, by writings in the modern languages. Latin literature lasted longest in very specific fields (e.g. botany and zoology) where it had acquired a technical character, and where a literature available only to a small number of learned individuals could remain viable. By the end of the 19th century, Latin in some instances functioned less as a language than as a code capable of concise and exact expression, as for instance in physicians' prescriptions, or in a botanist's description of a specimen. In other fields (e.g. anatomy or law) where Latin had been widely used, it survived in technical phrases and terminology. The perpetuation of Ecclesiastical Latin in the Roman Catholic Church through the 20th century can be considered a special case of the technicalizing of Latin, and the narrowing of its use to an elite class of readers.

 

By 1900, creative Latin composition, for purely artistic purposes, had become rare. 

Latin as a language held a place of educational pre-eminence until the second half of the 19th century. At that point its value was increasingly questioned; in the 20th century, educational philosophies such as that of John Dewey dismissed its relevance. At the same time, the philological study of Latin appeared to show that the traditional methods and materials for teaching Latin were dangerously out of date and ineffective.

 

In secular academic use, however, New Latin declined sharply and then continuously after about 1700. Although Latin texts continued to be written throughout the 18th and into the 19th century, their number and their scope diminished over time. By 1900, very few new texts were being created in Latin for practical purposes, and the production of Latin texts had become little more than a hobby for Latin enthusiasts.

 

Around the beginning of the 19th century came a renewed emphasis on the study of Classical Latin as the spoken language of the Romans of the 1st centuries BC and AD. This new emphasis, similar to that of the Humanists but based on broader linguistic, historical, and critical studies of Latin literature, led to the exclusion of Neo-Latin literature from academic studies in schools and universities (except for advanced historical language studies); to the abandonment of New Latin neologisms; and to an increasing interest in the reconstructed Classical pronunciation, which displaced the several regional pronunciations in Europe in the early 20th century.

 

You might also find interesting this website discussing Kipling (as a random example of an author) and Latin http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/rg_classical1.htm.  I suspect more can be found in this vein.  Have fun :)

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by wapiti

[Guest]

 

 

 

I absolutely don't want MP to define this discussion of Latin-centered. They are a PART of it only. Latin-centered homeschooling predates them.

 

< snip >

 

I think the homeschool MARKET is flooded with PRODUCTS and we have stopped thinking for ourselves. We are letting products that some of us cannot even afford to guide and define us. MP is a store like Walmart. I might want to buy something from them, but they don't get to define Latin-centered.

 

 

Nodding my head in agreement and posting so I don't lose this thread. I rather abruptly lost significant income at the period of time you are describing and it sounds like it was a blessing in disguise.

 

MP flopped miserably with dd28 and was promptly resold. We used Martha Wilson's Latin Primers when they were the newest, hottest thing and Wheelock's + whatever I could get my hands on when we couldn't afford it any more.

[mellifera33]

I guess in my head, right or wrong, I've got about 4 overlapping methods in my head:

 

1. Neoclassical

 

2. MP and LCC the book

 

3. Traditional classical as defined by Climbing Parnasssus and the Classical departments of universities

 

4. Purely Latin-centered. Not even classical language centered, but LATIN centered. Not traditional classical, but LATIN centered, taking a long hard look at what ancient and medieval classical practices are part of being LATIN centered and which of those carry on to a modern LATIN centered Curriculum, beyond being included in a history lesson. I'm not sure what this is. It is this last overlapping, but sometimes different idea I'm trying to wrap my head around.

 

The Hebrew language laid mostly dormant for almost 2000 years. Then bloomed into a modern language. Latin never went nearly as dormant as Hebrew. It also has not been resurrected as a national language, but maybe some day it will be. It has only been the last couple decades where the Roman Catholic Church has been using Latin less and less.

 

Latin is a beautiful language. Beautiful in a way that no other language is beautiful to me.

 

I agree with you there. It is too bad that it is usually considered a language for reading--spoken Latin is gorgeous. 

 

We do have MODERN books translated into Latin. Winnie the Pooh, Dr Seuss, Beatrix Potter, Diary of a Wimpy kid, etc.

 

This is where I want to go with my children. Heck, this is where I want to end up myself.

Who have been the post-reformation Latinists? What is their history? How have they lived around the world? Who is left? Is Latin dead? Is it too beautiful to ever die? Is the language beyond any one culture to claim?

 

I absolutely don't want MP to define this discussion of Latin-centered. They are a PART of it only. Latin-centered homeschooling predates them. Yes most of your pre-Y2K and early Y2K Latin-centered homeschoolers had similar ideas to MP, but not ALL. There was more being discussed.

 

I am interested in this. Homeschooling wasn't on my radar at that point, and I have no knowledge of the trends and directions things were going before "Big Homeschool" became a thing.

 

A Latin literature course. What has been written and translated into Latin since the reformation?

 

Literature? I don't know. Scientific texts in the original Latin would be interesting, though--Newton's Principia?  Copernicus' Laws of Planetary Motion? Galileo's The Starry Messenger?

 

At one point, Greek was so widely spoken that Romans spoke Greek. Paul was a Roman citizen but wrote his New Testament Epistles in Greek. At some point, Latin became more widely spoken that Greek as an international language. It is just a gorgeous LANGUAGE. I wonder what aspects of the LANGUAGE were responsible for it overtaking Greek as an international language.

Maybe I'm just babbling about nothing. But my brain is kind of busy right now, trying to process a lot of information through a new lens, of what does LATIN-centered really mean. Big and little. For example teaching classical mythology with primarily the Roman names and story twists, rather than the Greek ones, and maybe celebrating the major Roman holidays. For this type of stuff, public school teachers have more to offer than the homeschool market.

 

I am not an expert in any way, but it seems to me that the language-centered classical homeschool curriculums tend to be Christian, and to view ancient Roman culture and mythology as a sort of stepping stone on the way to a modern view of Christianity, or to discard the mythology completely because it deals in false gods. Are there any non-sectarian language-based Latin homeschool curriculum publishers? We are using bits of pieces of things at the moment, but it feels like bits and pieces--not a coherent system for learning a language. I hope that as I become more proficient in Latin, I can improve this aspect of our learning. 

 

Homeschoolers are quick to let publishers and sellers define methods and ideas. I just think at this point, the masses are closing their eyes to some ideas. I think the homeschool MARKET is flooded with PRODUCTS and we have stopped thinking for ourselves. We are letting products that some of us cannot even afford to guide and define us. MP is a store like Walmart. I might want to buy something from them, but they don't get to define Latin-centered.

 

At some point, though, I need to just decide on something and teach. I don't have the time to reinvent the wheel, nor am I-or most homeschooling parents--able to even make a good attempt. How many of us had a classical education ourselves? Most of us are learning along with our kids, studying madly after they are in bed in order to stay a bit ahead of them. lol

 

Plus, Latin-centered homeschooling is a subset of a subset of an already quite small population--homeschoolers > classical homeschoolers > Latin-centered homeschoolers. I hadn't even heard of Latin-centered homeschooling until I came across Campbell's book, and although the ideas resonate with me and I try to implement them, I probably can't really call our homeschool Latin-centered. 

 

Babbling. I know I'm probably babbling. But my mind is busy, and I babble when it is busy, and often at you guys.

 

Your babbling is the best stuff I'll read all day.  :thumbup1: 

 

[LMD]

Loving this thread.

Hunter, your babbling is a breath of fresh air! Especially after I just had to defend even bothering to teach Latin...

 

My dad (in his 70s now) learned Latin as a boy in an English boarding school. He loves to tell the story of their (9th grade ish?) assignment - translating Homer's Odyssey from Latin to English. The boys were all very competitive, and they loved the story, so they would race to be the first to translate and read the next section!

 

That's all I've got. I'll be in the corner, soaking up this conversation.

[Hunter]

I'm not meaning to trash any publisher, especially MP. I just didn't want to have a thread about MP. That is another thread for another day.

 

And I'm not meaning to be on a soap box trying to proselytize anything at all.

 

I just was having a hard time before Christmas, looked for something to amuse myself until January, starting poking around with reviewing my Latin, and started having a whole lot of questions. Lots and lots of questions. Way more questions than answers.

 

Wapiti, that's for the links! I'll take a look at those. Sometimes when I babble, people link me to just what I need to read. Every once in awhile a thread just goes completely ignored and unanswered. Not often though. :lol: It is more likely to just end out a WTF??????? type thread.

 

The Rose Williams history and mythology books just really made me think. After seeing the samples for those, I just took a huge step backwards and want to just start from scratch and relook at this all.

 

DS2 was most interested in Greek and at one point seriously considered pursuing a degree in Classics. We did Latin as afterschooling, but soon after we started homeschooling and had access to catalogs, Greek quickly pushed Latin into the he corner, some years we didn't even do any Latin at all.

 

I took some Latin in school and have very fond memories of that time.

 

So, I don't know. I just need to even take a huge step backwards from how even I homeschooled the Classics. I'm not interested in an even Greek and Latin focus. I'm not wanting to even just jump onto all things Ancient and classical. I'm not interested in the vast majority of MP products. I'm not sure what I'm interested in after I know what I'm not. I want to start over and start fresh. I want to question it all.

 

There are times I don't have the resources to question and need to dive in and just do. Now isn't one of those times. I've really pulled back from an any intensive tutoring for right now. I want to focus on my own self-education. I want to explore some new ideas and double and triple check some old habits, to see if this is how I want to continue.

 

I have the luxury right now to explore, and want to take advantage of that. These questions are play to me. I'm just playing. And looking for anyone that want to come and play with me.

[Hunter]

I have no idea what a Latinist is. I'm hoping someone else might know. :lol:

 

Latinist

noun Lat·in·ist \ˈla-tə-nist, ˈlat-nist\

Popularity: Bottom 10% of words

 

Definition of Latinist

: a specialist in the Latin language or Roman culture

[Hunter]

Right now, I want to study Latin for several hours a day, and really make some progress with the language. And my brain can only absorb so much Latin a day without talking breaks and sleeping on it.

 

So after that, sometimes I want.to study the other subjects in a Latin centered way, if there is such a thing.

 

I got some of Rose Williams books for a penny each. I'm going to read those.

 

I ordered a tattered copy of Composition in the Classical Tradition for not too much money, before the price goes up for back to school in a few weeks. That book is how old, now, and never republished in a newer edition, which is really rare among college texts. I think I do want to play around a bit with some progym exercises. I realized that ancient Latin writers were trained with the progym, so training myself in the progym means I will understand those writers better. I don't know of any other book that includes the entire progym in one book.

 

I don't know if I want to continue working through some older edition Saxon texts, or study Euclid, or some other math right now. Nothing for math seems as certain as I feel about the progym and Rose Williams texts, except that I think I do want to study some math.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Hunter

[elegantlion]

I read LCC and used that for a few years with ds, then expanding to Japanese as our main language, shifting to world focus instead of a Latin centered. We kept some of the, um, attitude of Latin study. I found a book on Quintilian several years ago and read through that. Now that I am in college and studying to be a medievalist, Latin has taken on new importance. My school doesn't technically offer Latin, yet my advisor is doing a invitation only class for me and one other student. It's been a lot of fun as he is doing a lot of it immersion style, so lots of spoken Latin. I also agree it's a beautiful language.

 

Personally, I would love to see Latin become more mainstream. One high school in our area offers Latin and that's it. I was discussing the liberal arts education with a few professors recently, how logic and Latin should be required classes, probably before college.

 

In my class we're focused on classical pronunciation, but using medieval works as that is my area of interest. What I'm finding with secondary sources is that if an author quotes a Latin passage, if the text is meant for academic study there are no translations given. Years ago it was safe to assume everyone had Latin. Now that assumption is everyone studying medieval history has had Latin.

 

One thing I never realized is how many medieval works outside of the church were in Latin. I just bought a book called Lost Letters of Medieval Life, which includes letters about households, disputes between neighbors and a whole host of other issues.  It looks like a fun read (translations are included). 

 

I wouldn't mind teaching Latin at some point, although that is a few years out. I don't know, just kind of musing with you. 

[Hunter]

Elegantlion, and anyone else, please babble and muse and problem solve, and anything else that leads to creativity and new ideas.

 

Foreword to From Romulus to Romulus Augustus

 

The early history of Rome is shrouded in legend, much of which we learn from historian Livy. The stories cannot be taken as absolutely factual, as Livy often gives two versions of the same story, neither verifiable. But these stories represent Roman history as the Romans themselves accepted and revered it, and what people believe to be fact is often quite as influential as fact itself.

 

I think I'm going to like this slim little volume.

Edited January 3, 2017 by Hunter

[Guest]

I have nothing to add here, but wanted to say I appreciate this thread. As a complete outsider, the appeal of such a _focussed_ education is so strong!

[Bics]

I am curious where the Latin-centered movement Hunter mentions went! Did it fizzle out? Did it work and those parents graduated these students? Are they not hsing 2nd generation? Or is it impossible to keep going with high school transcript requirements looming?

[Bics]

I love languages and am having so much fun learning with my children. I started young with a modern language study, but honestly, without being able to teach a grammar way to young children, and not being fluent myself, it has been disheartening to keep it afloat. I tried classes with a native speaker, co-op class with a fluent speaker using Charlotte Mason suggestions, DVDs of TPR methods, phrase-a-day, etc. I am giving up until later when they can learn with grammar and then practice speaking. I don't know what else to do! I really am hoping Latin studies help with other languages.

[Bics]

When I say "I started young" I mean I started my children when they were young.

[Hunter]

I am curious where the Latin-centered movement Hunter mentions went! Did it fizzle out? Did it work and those parents graduated these students? Are they not hsing 2nd generation? Or is it impossible to keep going with high school transcript requirements looming?

I can only speak about the people I watched. My memory is somewhat faulty. I am biased; everyone is biased.

 

The 1st edition of LCC was more radical that the 2nd edition. LCC 1st edition was exactly what some parents needed. As homeschooling changed in general, and those families got closer to high school and panicked, the less radical LCC 2nd edition was a welcome next step to many families. They got to retain their original battle cry, but also got handed something even more mainstream. Some families stuck to the 1st edition and MP continued to make it available. Some of those families very vocal about their loyalty to 1st edition.

 

Some people rejected LCC the book outright as soon as it was published. That group mostly seems to disappear almost immediately. Some just gave up on classical education altogether. Some went quiet about what they were doing. The book being published changed things. The QUESTIONS stopped. The early excitement turned to realism. Homeschooling in general was changing to more mainstream. People dreamed less. The dreamers and the radicals became the minority. Even when they didn't disappear, the mainstreamers eclipsed them to such a degree, their small voices were drowned out by the new much larger majority. I'm talking about homeschool in general and the LCC movement. A small voice in a small quiet room is so much more noticeable than a small voice in a large crowded room. Even if the small voice remains identical, no one can hear it anymore and some might not even know it exists at all.

[8filltheheart]

Homeschoolers are quick to let publishers and sellers define methods and ideas. I just think at this point, the masses are closing their eyes to some ideas. I think the homeschool MARKET is flooded with PRODUCTS and we have stopped thinking for ourselves. We are letting products that some of us cannot even afford to guide and define us. MP is a store like Walmart. I might want to buy something from them, but they don't get to define Latin-centered.

This is what makes me so sad. The most prevalent attitude amg the homeschoolers I encounter is that they need co-ops, DE, outside teachers bc they are not qualified to teach. The market and outside providers are beneficial in many ways bc they give people options, but they are equally detrimental bc the norm is to now accept that outside providers and canned curriculum are necessary to validate homeschooling bc it needs validating.

 

I personally can't imagine taking Latin-centered any further than learning Latin and embracing the core values of the methodology built around reading, debating, and critical thinking. I think too much focus on Roman culture or even Greek culture is nothing more than accepting another definition and following it. Today's world is far removed from ancient Rome and Greece. We can learn from their methods, learn the language and read their works in the original bc that is where the strength lies. They were thinkers/philosophers/questioners. Understanding how they nurtured deep critical thinkers is where I find the beauty. Since my children need to live, thrive, and influence the world around them in the 21st century, understanding what and how their education influenced their learning means more to me about knowing how to teach.

 

I am a lover of Ignatius and my intersection with all of this is through the Jesuits like Wapiti mentioned. I have never defined myself as Latin-centered, so my response may be offbase. I have always been critical thinking focused and Latin has a strong role to play in that. I have seen my own kids grow intellectually with their Latin studies. My 12th grader excels in languages and the root of her strength comes from her strong grasp of grammar that she developed from Latin.

 

I do disagree with the prevailing view on this forum. I do not think Latin young is a great approach. I personally think 5th or 6th grade is more ideal. Latin grammar is complex. Let them master reading English to a certain degree of complexity first. It will allow for a smoother transition to reading Latin without stalling or struggling.

 

Just my thoughts, sorry if they are not really Latin-centered as Latin.

Edited January 4, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Hunter]

I have nothing to add here, but wanted to say I appreciate this thread. As a complete outsider, the appeal of such a _focussed_ education is so strong!

Sometimes the theory of this education doesn't pan out in reality for some families, when the rubber hits the road.

 

I had less to lose with my boy. We already were off the beaten path with no hope of getting back on. So we took a hell of a radical ride, top speed, down an empty bumpy road. Mr Toad's Wild Ride, stuff.

 

Studying Euclid in the original Greek landed him in a community college.

 

What I am realizing, is shooting for the moon and missing, and leaving yourself STRANDED amongst the stars, with no idea what the F to do next, is sometimes worth it, if the thrill of the ride alone was worth it. Following the crowd to doom sucks, though.

 

Radical LCC by any definition is nuts for most people. Unless undertaken for love, it is probably a really bad idea. If years of classical language study results in no college at all or a community college, would it be worth it? Truly for some of us, the answer is yes. Plumbers, truck drivers, soldiers, MMF fighters, bicycle messengers, comic book writers, video game designers, tattoo artists that grew up learning Latin? I know some graduates and some on the way. I have sat in a homeless shelter studying Ancient Greek. If you love it, play. For the sheer joy.

 

But if mainstream suburbia and health insurance premiums are at the top of your list of priorities, radical LCC probably isn't someone's best bet on getting there.

 

I realized that the bad days are when we can evaluate when we love something. Last month, when I chose to sit wet in the mall tapping off the wifi signal outside the fancy cosmetic store, I was not unhappy. Not at all. But if I'd been doing that hoping to get some better health insurance? That would have been sad.

 

It is hard to juggle intensive math instruction and intense language study at the same time. I think for most homeschooling families, one almost always takes a backseat to the other. Then throw in daily progym exercises and textbook science with labs, and forget it. Map work and AP lit terminology. A musical instrument. Art History.

 

Boston Latin recently dropped its graduation requirements for Latin, and no longer needs to be taken every year. That floors me. I guess times be a changing.

 

http://www.bls.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=206067&type=d&pREC_ID=406776

 

Graduation Requirements

 

The academic requirements for graduation from Boston Latin School are:

English: 4 years (grades 9-12) and a research paper

History: 3 years, including either U.S. History or AP U.S. History

Science: 3 years

Mathematics: 4 years (high school mathematics starting with Algebra 1)

Modern Foreign Language: 4 years

Latin: 4 years (if entering in grade 7) or 3 years (if entering in grade 9)

 

Boston Latin School is the oldest school in America. It was founded April 23, 1635 by the Town of Boston

http://www.bls.org/apps/pages/index.jsp?uREC_ID=206116&type=d

Admission to the school during Lovell's regime was determined by reading a few verses from the Bible. Members of the six or seven classes of the school sat at different benches. The students studied Latin and Greek and the "elementary subjects." The morning session started at seven o'clock in the summer and eight o'clock in winter, and ended at eleven. School resumed at one o'clock in the afternoon and ran until five. After either the eleven o'clock hour, the five o'clock hour, or both, the pupils attended a writing school nearby. On Thursdays the school was dismissed at ten o'clock, in order that the pupils might have the opportunity of attending the "Thursday Lecture" — another heritage from Boston, England.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Hunter

[Hunter]

 

Just my thoughts, sorry if they are not really Latin-centered as Latin.

No sorries. Let's just throw it all out there in this thread. Let's talk about what usually does NOT get talked about in an LCC thread.

[Hunter]

I'm not sure anything learned by love is worthless, or unworthy to become the pegs we hang an entire education upon.

 

Latin, art, music, holy book and religious history, military history, literary classics: these are all things I have seen become the center of an education. What happens when you love something with all your heart and soul, and then unschool around it, seeing every other new thing in context of what you love?

 

Maybe LCC only works when the language or languages are loved?

Edited January 4, 2017 by Hunter

[Hunter]

I have nothing to add here, but wanted to say I appreciate this thread. As a complete outsider, the appeal of such a _focussed_ education is so strong!

My intense classical language study periods coincide with times I am my least religious. Maybe it is the focused study that attracts me, and I am replicating a Bible-as-a-textbook approach with a language?

[8filltheheart]

I'm not sure anything learned by love is worthless, or unworthy to become the pegs we hang an entire education upon.

 

Latin, art, music, holy book and religious history, military history, literary classics: these are all things I have seen become the center of an education. What happens when you love something with all your heart and soul, and then unschool around it, seeing every other new thing in context of what you love?

 

Maybe LCC only works when the language or languages are loved?

Loved by whom? The teacher or the child? You lost me here bc I do not believe that children are equipped to do this.

 

In order to do this, the children would need to know how to read, understand grammar, and be capable of mastering the complexity of Latin structure. How did they learn Latin? Unschooled Latin language acquisition leading to only wanting to study Latin and Roman history and writings occurring amg older teenagers and adults I can see, but not most school aged children bc Latin acquisition to a high level takes systematic study.

 

I am a proponent of interest-led education. It is the type of education my children receive, but interests are nurtured and cultivated across a broad range of subjects. They find their own passions by being exposed to a cornucopia of subjects and ideas.

 

If the passion is the parents, I personally think they will be doing their children a disservice by cornering them in to an area that while useful, it is useful only to a limited degree and is going to restrict their children's ability to function in the world. If an individual makes an informed choice to do that as an adult, that is called specializing. Ignoring subjects that equip children to live lives that they may make the choice to pursue, that I would call misguided. But I am not a proponent of unschooling, either.

[wapiti]

It is hard to juggle intensive math instruction and intense language study at the same time. I think for most homeschooling families, one almost always takes a backseat to the other. Then throw in daily progym exercises and textbook science with labs, and forget it. Map work and AP lit terminology. A musical instrument. Art History.

 

This is a false dichotomy IMO or maybe it depends on what you mean by intensive.  Intensity (quality? depth?) does not necessarily need to equate with some gigantic opportunity cost of study time where math is concerned.  Most high school students study the subjects you mention, including one foreign language.  It's easily possible for a student to have an emphasis in both math and a foreign language if they desire, not that students need any special emphasis at all.  From my perspective, this sounds like a time management question.

 

Or, maybe you are feeling that it's just too much, too overwhelming, for one person to teach to the level of depth that you feel would be ideal in all these areas?  That's easy to understand; slacker that I am, I have outsourced all to the local Jesuit high school.

 

My intense classical language study periods coincide with times I am my least religious. Maybe it is the focused study that attracts me, and I am replicating a Bible-as-a-textbook approach with a language?

 

You may have put your finger on it, that the wistfulness of your posts about Latin being a "center" one looks toward have an element of religious tone.  Perhaps it would help to differentiate between a "center" and an emphasis.

[Hunter]

When I talked about unschooling, I was talking about unschooling AROUND the passion, not unschooling the PASSION. I was including Latin, but not just talking about Latin. I'm just trying to make sense of some trends I am starting to notice from over the decades. I'm thinking out loud. And trying to understand LCC in context of what I have seen over the years.

 

We are talking about everything, right? :lol: Okay, do we want to get into the rights of parents to be non mainsteam and homeschool anyway, taking their kids along on their wacko ride, despite that being the foundation of homeschool. HOMESchooling didn't just start in the HOME, but often a wacko or at least non-mainsteam home. But, I guess that is part of some LCC families, isn't it? Some sort of rigid LCC was the norm, but now it is not. Rigid LCC was a direct path to college, but not it isn't. Now rigid LCC would be looked at as a parent passion doing a disservice to the children?

 

We look at the curriculum changes at Boston Latin over the centuries. They were founded on a Latin and Greek emphasis for elementary, and now they are lowering the high school requirements lower than previous elementary. What was elite mainstream is now wacko and neglect or actual abuse?

 

Just throwing this out there. 2 hours a day of Latin and Latinist focused history, 1 hour math, 1 hour progym, and several hours of unschooling a day with a stack of library books, access to DVD and streaming video, frequent trips to museums, time outdoors exploring, plentiful art supplies and science kits, several times a week attendance at a local place of worship: is that educational neglect and disservice to a child? Or is unschooling of ANY subject educational neglect, and all subjects must be taught intensively and explicitly? Is a passion of the child OR parent taking central stage, and surrounded and soaked in a rich environment of unschooling neglect, and therefore rigid LCC neglect?

 

Can children be passionate about subjects they have not mastered? Any subject? Latin? Until he discovered Greek, while he was still in PS and a charter school, my little guy loved his Latin studies above anything else. His little illustrated stories of a ghost and a she-wolf written in Latin, using just 1st declension, hanging on the fridge sure looked like love of an unmastered subject to all of us. There were days I let him skip school to stay home and study Latin and math. His teachers knew and tolerated it, because he always came back the next day a bit more willing to submit to their curriculum, in the hopes of earning another day off with me and Latin.

 

So where does LCC fit into educational neglect? I wasn't expecting to go here, but okay, let's do it. :lol: I wanted to do something different. :lol:

[Hunter]

I've noticed that the average homeschool mom really struggles to juggle math and Latin for a family of children, year after year. Financially, self-education, teaching time, etc.: it is a heavy load. And little brains can sometimes get tired with the combined drill. I let my son slack off on the math a bit, at one point, when he was juggling both Latin and Greek for several hours a day, trying to get a long list of endings and vocabulary drilled and mastered.

 

Multiple math and multiple Latin currula are expensive. Mastery of any subject often requires more than one book.

 

This is what I mean about the rubber hitting the road.

[8filltheheart]

I've noticed that the average homeschool mom really struggles to juggle math and Latin for a family of children, year after year. Financially, self-education, teaching time, etc.: it is a heavy load. And little brains can sometimes get tired with the combined drill. I let my son slack off on the math a bit, at one point, when he was juggling both Latin and Greek for several hours a day, trying to get a long list of endings and vocabulary drilled and mastered.

 

Multiple math and multiple Latin currula are expensive. Mastery of any subject often requires more than one book.

 

This is what I mean about the rubber hitting the road.

We are doing school, so I don't have time to address the other post, but I agree with Wapiti that this is a false dichotomy. It isn't any more difficult to manage math and Latin than math and science or any other subject that the parent does not know herself. Therein lies the crux of many issues. It is the one that opponents use to decry the viability of homeschooling and the reason that curriculum providers and outsourced classes are so popular. It can be done, but the how's are a different sort of question.

[Hunter]

i originally brought up the topic of math in a LCC curriculum to just throw it out there, not having any idea what might pop up. I want to ask questions more than stand on a soap box and talk about what I have thought in the past. I'm interested in maybe thinking something new, before before this all over.

 

So, I'm going to talk about MY BTDT, but am not preaching my BTDT. I'm more interesting in other's LCC BTDT, and exploration of the idea of what LCC math could be.

 

I found that lots of Latin/Greek drill deadened my kids brain for more drill in the form of math drill.

 

My library could special order me all sorts of science, history, art, music enrichment and things capable of replacing a text, but they struggled to be able to provide me with math and Latin comparable to what I could purchase from catalogs. I had to pick and choose between purchasing math OR Greek/Latin. It WAS a choice for ME. Algebra tiles OR prepared Greek flash cards. A TPR Latin book OR a book about math journaling. Saxon solution manual and DVD instruction OR Athenaze Greek to be used as a reading book. These were choices I had to make.

 

And when reading MP articles about Latin drill, my mind started thinking about our math drill habits. And didn't they publish an article about math drill that included discussion of comparison to Latin drill? I'm super fuzzy about that.

 

My LCC days affected OUR math. So I brought the question up for discussion.

 

I bet LCCers spend more time on Roman numerals. And for those doing Greek, I bet they take a long hard look at this website, even if they immediately discard the idea of doing math in Greek. We were just crazy enough to do some of our math in Greek. And played around with doing some math in Roman numerals too.

https://mysite.du.edu/~etuttle/classics/nugreek/contents.htm#conts

Edited January 4, 2017 by Hunter

[SarahW]

 

Just throwing this out there. 2 hours a day of Latin and Latinist focused history, 1 hour math, 1 hour progym, and several hours of unschooling a day with a stack of library books, access to DVD and streaming video, frequent trips to museums, time outdoors exploring, plentiful art supplies and science kits, several times a week attendance at a local place of worship: 

 

 

That sounds like Latin-based Robinson.  ;)

 

I have sympathy for the idea. I throw things into my (ever changing) signature of curriculum lineup because if I'm not intentional about pulling the books off the shelf, they won't get done, and the "lots of assorted other things as well" is a collection of changing randomness springboarding off current interests, timely enrichment, and immediate concerns, but still very much integral to the overall Plans. But, I try to keep the consistent priority on languages, with everything else flying around that (math is a horse of a different color in my house).

 

I like the theory of Latin-Based Robinson. I remember my main issue with it was the random and low-quality booklist. I think switching that out for Latin would be a big improvement. But I would also keep my tentative schedule of eclectic random goodies. :p  

 

 

I'm not sure what to say about Latin vs. Math. I see what you're saying there, but there's not much drill in my house, though there's brain melting days, for sure. I would solve it by alternating between brain-melting and practice days. But there's the money issue, too, for sure. Eclectic random goodies usually is whatever I happen to have after buying Latin and math. 

[8filltheheart]

Sarah, we don't do any drills in any subjects, either. Never done a Latin or math drill in over 20 yrs.

[Rosie_0801]

I think it is pretty normal to go through phases where one major topic is on the boil, and the other one or two are on the back burner. When really digging into one subject, the other one or two may need to go into maintenance mode for a while. Then they may swap places, or all may bubble along together for a bit until one throws up a particular challenge that grabs all the attention.

 

That's all Hunter is talking about, no?

 

 

(We have a drilling sort of house here too. That's how dd's learning difficulties have worked thus far.)

[Hunter]

That sounds like Latin-based Robinson. ;)

 

I have sympathy for the idea. I throw things into my (ever changing) signature of curriculum lineup because if I'm not intentional about pulling the books off the shelf, they won't get done, and the "lots of assorted other things as well" is a collection of changing randomness springboarding off current interests, timely enrichment, and immediate concerns, but still very much integral to the overall Plans. But, I try to keep the consistent priority on languages, with everything else flying around that (math is a horse of a different color in my house).

 

I like the theory of Latin-Based Robinson. I remember my main issue with it was the random and low-quality booklist. I think switching that out for Latin would be a big improvement. But I would also keep my tentative schedule of eclectic random goodies. :p

 

 

I'm not sure what to say about Latin vs. Math. I see what you're saying there, but there's not much drill in my house, though there's brain melting days, for sure. I would solve it by alternating between brain-melting and practice days. But there's the money issue, too, for sure. Eclectic random goodies usually is whatever I happen to have after buying Latin and math.

Wow! Thanks for pointing that out. Yes, what I listed off the top of my head, is basically Robinson. :lol: Basically the first hardcore hour of the Latin replaces an hour of the math. And the second more relaxed hour of Latin enrichment, history, comparisons to English grammar and vocabulary, etc. would replace the English spelling and grammar added to the second edition of Robinson, and some of the reading list.

 

:lol:

 

LCC as a Robinson alternative for her less mathy mom.

 

Well that starts off a whole new line of thinking, doesn't it?

[Hunter]

My nonverbal 2E kid hated oral drill!!!! But at least for him, it helped him a LOT.

[Momto4inSoCal]

I was thinking the other day about the the methods of education that I read about somewhere (can't remember which book) that almost completely focused on Cicero's orations. Children learning Rhetoric from a master, grammar by decoding latin, and a foreign language along with western history. It just seems like we are making thing so complicated by having all of our different subjects. My problem of course is not knowing latin but if I did I think I would take the Cicero approach.  

[PollyOR]

My mother took Latin in high school (50's) and I mourned that I would never be able to study Latin.  So, when the first edition of LCC came out I was SO excited to think I could still learn Latin!  (I have both editions, and yes, the first is still my favorite.)

 

We still dabble in Latin, but I had to take into account my children's individual needs.  Real life happened.  

 

I agree with starting Latin later.  I know some folks use Latin to also teach grammar, but my girls did better when we learned English grammar first and then used that knowledge to learn Latin.

Edited January 5, 2017 by PollyOR

[Hunter]

Both my boys and I all learned Latin first and English grammar from the Latin. We learned English grammar "late", but we did learn some.

 

One of the things I struggled most in teaching LD and ESL students was to teach English grammar without being able to refer back to Latin. I had never done that before.

[ElizaG]

Has there ever been such a thing as a "Latin-centered education" without Greek?   Even though Greek was often studied for fewer hours than Latin, it was an essential part of the classical secondary curriculum, and was respected as the elder brother.  

 

If we look at the educational systems that offered only Latin -- such as 19th century technical high schools, and some seminaries -- they were teaching it for practical reasons, not for love of the language.   And those justifications didn't hold up in the face of the vernacular. 

 

This is what happened among US Catholics, with the decline of classics and the rise of universal schooling.  From 1900-1950, there was a push to teach Latin, so that people could understand the liturgy.  Greek was left in obscurity, though, because there was no immediately obvious use to it.  But if the goal is to be practical, why keep using Latin at all?  Why not just translate the liturgy into the vernacular?   And this is exactly what ended up happening. 

 

So, to me, to be "Latin-centered" implies that we value not only the language and literature, but also the humanistic cultural and educational tradition that goes along with it.  And that has always depended heavily on the Greeks.  Quintilian would surely be among the first to point that out.   :001_smile:

 

I don't mean to argue against studying only Latin.  This might be okay in itself, and it's better than a lot of other plans I've seen.   But we can't appeal to tradition, and say that this was considered a complete education in the past.   As far as I understand, it was not. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by ElizaG

[ElizaG]

BTW, Hunter, I know you enjoy studying ancient Greek.    And given how many times you've mentioned it here, perhaps you also consider it to be a necessary part of a "Latin-centered" education.  

 

But given how little attention it gets from homeschoolers, it seems possible that some people reading the thread might overlook its role in the curriculum, and think that "traditional classical" might sometimes have meant "Latin only."  So this is just my attempt at clarification.  :001_smile:

Edited January 5, 2017 by ElizaG

[Hunter]

I no longer have a copy of Climbing Parnassus, but I do believe they discuss periods of history when only Latin was taught.

 

I have some personal reasons I won't discuss in a public forum for my personal choice to focus more on Latin that Greek right now. On a practical level, I'm bones tired of almost 2 decades of struggling with Greek fonts that never catch up with the current Latin based fonts.

 

Sometimes the best thing a homeschool mom can do is to bite off a chunk she really can chew and chew that. I did Greek with a kid that loved it. Yes, really he did. That drove me to self-neglect in an attempt to learn and teach it. Learning and teaching Greek is so intertwined in who I am that anyone that knows me well, knows bits and bobs about Greek. But I also was born outside the USA. I don't think everything *I* have done needs to be repeated even by me.

 

What was I doing while the towers came down on 9/11? I was cursing at our Windows ME computer trying to install Greek and Hebrew fonts.

 

The majority of public schooled classics majors only studied Latin at their PS and take their first Greek in college.

 

I studied Greek. I may in the future. I don't want to right now.

 

I'm not sure where this part of the discussion is going. But, I'll play along for whatever comes :D but I guess I'm a bit confused at how we went from too much study of Latin is bad, to now Greek must be added too. Is it being proposed that adding Greek will neutralize whatever was being downed above? Or are we all still just asking questions and throwing ideas around for fun without trying to come to any conclusions, yet?

[luuknam]

I'm not sure where this part of the discussion is going. But, I'll play along for whatever comes :D but I guess I'm a bit confused at how we went from too much study of Latin is bad, to now Greek must be added too. Is it being proposed that adding Greek will neutralize whatever was being downed above? Or are we all still just asking questions and throwing ideas around for fun without trying to come to any conclusions, yet?

 

I'm thinking maybe it was a different person asking?

 

It did make *me* wonder whether other cultures have something like Latin Centered. Is there such a thing as Sanskrit/Pali Centered? Or ancient Chinese centered (not sure how much Chinese has changed in the past 2000+ years)? Etc?

[Rosie_0801]

I'm thinking maybe it was a different person asking?

 

It did make *me* wonder whether other cultures have something like Latin Centered. Is there such a thing as Sanskrit/Pali Centered? Or ancient Chinese centered (not sure how much Chinese has changed in the past 2000+ years)? Etc?

 

That'd be Confucian thought based education, no?

[luuknam]

That'd be Confucian thought based education, no?

 

Possibly. Confucius was hardly the only Chinese person who lived over 2000 years ago. Latin Centered isn't about just one philosopher/philosophy, is it?

[ElizaG]

I'm not sure where this part of the discussion is going. But, I'll play along for whatever comes :D but I guess I'm a bit confused at how we went from too much study of Latin is bad, to now Greek must be added too. Is it being proposed that adding Greek will neutralize whatever was being downed above? Or are we all still just asking questions and throwing ideas around for fun without trying to come to any conclusions, yet?

Well, I don't think too much Latin is bad.   Nor do I think anyone must add Greek to anything.   But if we're going to argue in favor of a homeschooling style on the grounds that "this is how our ancestors were educated," it's important to be careful about historical accuracy. 

 

This was a major weakness of the LCC scene, as I recall.  Not just the books, but the discussions.  (My children weren't even school aged yet, but I was very confused, trying to understand which parts were the real deal and which ones were just guesswork.)

 

In the middle ages, there were Latin-only schools, but they weren't "Latin-centered" in the sense that you've described above -- that is, motivated by a great love for the language, literature, Cicero, and all that.  Their interest in Latin was more utilitarian, and their reading wasn't nearly as broad.  Quintilian's books were almost unknown, except for odd copies that people were using to write their grocery lists on :laugh: , until the Renaissance book-hunters rounded them up for us. 

 

I can't explain this well, but just looking at patterns that keep coming up in the history of education, it seems as if the inclusion of Greek is a key to making classical studies humanistic, rather than purely scientific, philosophical, or theological.   Or maybe it's the other way around:  when a society starts to overemphasize logical distinctions, and disdain poetry and the emotions, Greek is likely to be dropped.   Either way, this makes me cautious about using Latin on its own.   If Greek weren't an option, I'd be likely to add intensive humanistic studies of English and modern foreign languages.   Whatever the pros and cons of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, I'd prefer not to put all of our educational eggs in one linguistic basket.  ;)

[8filltheheart]

When I made the comment about focusing on Latin as being misguided (never once did I suggest educational neglect), it was based on a misinterpretation of the focus of education being only on Latin and Latin works.

For me, I think a major difference is in how I view why Latin was such a core part of education in the past. My understanding is similar to ElizaG's in that it wasn't just to study Latin and Latin writings. My reading on the issue is heavily influenced by classical education as experienced by the likes of St. Augustine and by the Ratio Studiorum in which the study of Latin was not only on Latin grammar and writing but also focused on training in oration skills with orderly arguments, and students were also educated in philosophy, theology, and as Eliza pointed out, Greek. The education was not geared toward young children. I see it as having the objective of training the mind how to think.

I guess one difference in how I think about this topic is the over-arching objective. As a teacher, I am very focused on the why's behind what we do. My number one educational objective is educating my kids to be deep critical thinkers. It is one of the reasons I love Latin. I think Latin is beautiful, but I also value it as a means for great mental training. I think the study of Latin not only helps students understand the grammar of the language but also forces logical and orderly thinking in the use of language. But, no, I don't see it as being so much of a center to learning that other subjects are its inferior. It is a partner in training their minds. It is central, but not the center.

I also know from my experiences with my children that in our home it is possible to dig deep and dwell in multiple subjects and yet not do one at the expense of others. I have not faced the crises others have faced. Nor have I felt overwhelmed and unable to juggle multiple subjects simultaneously at different levels with my kids. So, that is a very different starting point. We are all coming at this from our own individual experiences.

 

We also spend a lot of time integrating across subjects so that subjects become intertwined and breathe life into each other. For many subjects, it would be hard to delineate where one ends and another begins. (My 9th grader, otoh, would probably love it if biology disappeared out of her school day. ;) )

Edited January 6, 2017 by 8FillTheHeart

[Momto4inSoCal]

Are you talking specifically about the educational movement during your homeschooling days which I would assume was a version of the neo classical movement or are you trying to tie back to the Jesuit/Middle Ages/Renessance (pick any) movement? As far as defining the current movement which does seem to solely include Latin (and reading these forums many even drop latin) I think it is evolving and since it is homeschooling there is not going to be one definition. I think it's part of why many flow in and out of the different philosophies. They have no definition just lofty ideas that, once they really begin digging, lead to nothing. I have a few friends with kids in schools that are classical and when you look past the thrown in Shakespeare and Latin it is essentially just another modern day school following the same state standards every other school follows. It leads me to wonder if that's what the current trend really is. Modern standards with a bit of Latin and Shakespeare. Even if we could pin down exactly what school was like in the Jesuit/Renessance/Middle Ages (pick one) we would be unable to replicate without the education the teachers had (actual fluency in the languages for one). If it is a good model for current days I think it is at least as good as any. Watching so many friends with so many different ways of schooling end up with successful children (as far as finishing degrees, getting married and seeming to be in general happy with their life) I am not sure their is a best way.