WWS is a struggle for DS. Any suggestions?

[idnib]

DS is struggling with WWS. He can do it, but it always feels like he's not sure where things are headed or why he's doing something. He's requiring a lot of explanation of how each piece fits into a larger picture.  I thought the detailed explanations might be good for him because he's detail-oriented, but they seem to bog him down. We actually ran into the same problem with AoPS pre-algebra (wordy explanations) and switched to Dolciani, which is working well.

 

He's a voracious reader and very fast, often reading 500-700 pages/week. He likes to write fiction, and wrote 70-80 pages for NaNoWriMo last month. However, he has been diagnosed with slow processing speed. (Not sure how that goes with reading really fast?)

 

I'm not sure why someone with a strong reading ability would get bogged down by wordy explanations, but he does. He's a very diligent person so he keeps plodding along, but it's taking a long time and I can see him struggling.

 

As an example, when he was working on a piece about Caesar, the first step was to write about a chronological history of Caesar's life, using the notes from different sources provided by SWB. The next step was to write about Caesar as a person, and the first step of that process was to get out the thesaurus and look up words. He couldn't connect that the thesaurus work was in order to change the words from the original source for his own writing. He just thought of it as a separate thesaurus practice and couldn't look ahead to see why he was doing that work. I assumed that was why SWB was having him do it, but I don't know if that's because I have experience and he does not. I told him to read ahead and it helped, but he still struggles.

 

I'm not sure if we'll switch, but I'd like to look at other programs. So far we've stuck with "SWB is thorough and her materials work for our family" but I'm open to ideas for curriculum with simpler explanation or perhaps one in which the student gets a better idea of the big picture before embarking on a task. Any ideas?

Edited December 7, 2016 by idnib

[lewelma]

I've ran a thread on teaching WWS a couple of years ago that might give you some ideas. 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/490567-here-is-how-i-am-teaching-the-material-in-wws1-3-what-are-you-doing/

 

Ruth in NZ

[KeriJ]

You're not alone. We had a similar experience. I'll try to get back on later to explain.

[happypamama]

One of my children needed a lot of hand holding with WWS1, to the point where I was often saying, "Write this." It got much easier after a bit.

[prairiewindmomma]

Go slowly. Keep going. :)  BTDT, and I cried a bunch of tears of frustration at the time, but I'm glad that my student and I persevered.  It took us 18 months to finish out WWS1, and we're still mid-process in WWS2. 

 

My student needed to build some thinking skills. Handhold as much as you need to, and eventually the brain will grow into the process.

[prairiewindmomma]

One more thought: if you need to switch for a time, look at IEW.  We ended up taking some IEW methodology with us to WWS to get through.  The slow processing speed challenge is very real.  FWIW, both of my boys can read very quickly....but reading deeply and with full comprehension is a gap.  You might dig around a bit with that as it has become a sticking point in high school work (namely: biology or things with a lot of vocabulary and processes that are are unfamiliar.  Books with a strong narrative do not have this gap.).

[idnib]

The slow processing speed challenge is very real.  FWIW, both of my boys can read very quickly....but reading deeply and with full comprehension is a gap.  You might dig around a bit with that as it has become a sticking point in high school work (namely: biology or things with a lot of vocabulary and processes that are are unfamiliar.  Books with a strong narrative do not have this gap.).

 

Thanks. I will definitely look into the issue with books with a lot of vocab/processes. It seems he reads deeply and with full comprehension as we often discuss the books thoroughly and he likes to make connections between old current reading, sometimes years later. But I agree his tendency leans away from processes, although he seems okay so far with lots of new vocab. We've done botany, the cell, and chemistry with Ellen McHenry's materials and he seemed okay, but high school is more advanced.

 

When the neuropsych did that test (name?) in which he was supposed to look at a picture and recreate it without looking, he performed terribly, even in the 2nd half of the test when he was told ahead of time he would need to reproduce it. I think he scored in the 3rd percentile? The neuropsych said it was as if it never got coded at all. OTOH, she said he's an excellent reader with a superb vocabulary and comprehension, and a very deep thinker. She said he should be something like an engineer or a writer, not an ER doctor or an air traffic controller, for everyone's sake.  ;)  

 

I thought we would have to go slowly because that's just how he works, but perhaps I missed some other struggle that I assumed was processing speed not not just the curriculum. That's why I'm checking in here.

[prairiewindmomma]

I found that I had to break everything down step by step. He couldn't look at the checklist and get from point A to point B.  Switching back and forth to make sure that the content made sense while he was also fulfilling the procedural checklist was really, really, hard. He could do either but not both. I would walk him through the content and he would narrate to me what he understood and once I was sure he understood content, then we would talk about the assignment requirements and go over checklists.  We often had to do each of those requirements step by step.

 

It got much, much easier as time went on, but building those neural connections was painful for both of us.  It's still not easy, but I see his skill set growing more with WWS materials than with others.

[Soror]

Sounds like my son, fast reader but slow at most everything else. I'm not doing WWS with him, besides being a slower processor he is more of a big picture thinker so the style wouldn't suite him- otherwise I would have used it at an older age range and scaffolded like we do everything else I guess. 

[Lori D.]

This is my 4th year of teaching writing in a co-op class to middle/high school students. The big thing I am learning through seeing a dozen new students each year is how *differently* they all think, and how writing really comes out of how the individual thinks and organizes. A lot of my students tend to be "whole-to-parts" learners (need the "big picture" first, and then work down into how the parts fit into that pattern of the "whole").

 

In contrast, a lot of traditional style writing programs have a parts-to-whole teaching method (start with individual "parts" of a longer piece of writing and build them up into a finished complete "whole"). This is the very opposite process of whole-to-parts.

 

The whole-to-parts student tends to need to approach the writing in this way:

- rough draft -- write to get overall idea / major points down on paper

- revision #1 -- revise intro paragraph, revise thesis statement, remove/add points & examples, add commentary

- revision #2 -- tweaking examples & commentary, add transitions, add a conclusion, refine wording (this is when to get out the thesaurus)

- proof editing -- small grammatical errors, punctuation, capitalization, formatting, etc., and any other small errors previously missed

 

 

SWB's method strikes me as being very parts-to-whole teaching of the process of writing. It sounds like your DS is more of a whole-to-parts learner. You may need to do some tweaks to WWS to make it work better for DS.

 

Take a day before starting a unit or section of WWS, and go over all the things that will covered and when, and WHY -- whole-to-parts thinkers need context for the "little details", and how the parts fit into the "big picture", or else those "parts" just come off as extraneous extras that are unrelated to the "whole". That gives DS the "big picture" to start with, so then as things like the thesaurus assignment come up, you've already shown him not only the "whole," the overview of the unit, but he knows to expect that focus on and practice of small "parts" will come along during the process and that they are not extraneous, but fit into the overall "big picture" in a specific way.

 

Another thought might be to re-order the assignments in WWS, so that detail work/small parts can be done later in the process, during the refining, so DS can start with the big picture "whole" of getting his thoughts to paper first.

 

If WWS continues to be a frustration to DS even by tweaking with those 2 ideas, then you might want to look into a different writing program that approaches writing instruction via whole-to-parts. It sounds like DS is a great writer and doing well with all the fiction writing, so he may not need something so detailed and meticulous as WWS -- just instruction about certain parts of the process that he is weak on when it comes to essay writing.

 

Just some rambling thoughts. BEST of luck in finding what works best for DS and that keeps alive his enjoyment of writing! Warmest regards, Lori D.

 

[Lori D.]

Oops! Disregard my post above -- it sounds like DS is in the early stages of learning how to think/build a structure for the argument of his essay. Totally agree with previous posters that hand-holding and helping him think through what needs to come next is absolutely helpful for students in the early stages of trying to think of what to say and how to organize their writing. I'm walking my class of high schoolers through their long essay right now, and still have a lot of strugglers with this process, so I'm doing a LOT of very specific mentoring and talking them through the process. Exhausting, but it does help -- I've seen a LOT of maturing in the writing of several of the students I have had for 2-3 years now! 

[idnib]

I found that I had to break everything down step by step. He couldn't look at the checklist and get from point A to point B.  Switching back and forth to make sure that the content made sense while he was also fulfilling the procedural checklist was really, really, hard. He could do either but not both. I would walk him through the content and he would narrate to me what he understood and once I was sure he understood content, then we would talk about the assignment requirements and go over checklists.  We often had to do each of those requirements step by step.

 

It got much, much easier as time went on, but building those neural connections was painful for both of us.  It's still not easy, but I see his skill set growing more with WWS materials than with others.

 

I think this is where we are at. I really would like to use this program as I can see its value and thoroughness. Assuming there is another program out there that he can complete more easily, I'm not sure it will be as thorough. Maybe?

 

Sounds like my son, fast reader but slow at most everything else. I'm not doing WWS with him, besides being a slower processor he is more of a big picture thinker so the style wouldn't suite him- otherwise I would have used it at an older age range and scaffolded like we do everything else I guess. 

 

Would you mind sharing what you are doing? He is older than the program intended. I think WWS was recommended for 5th grade, then SWB said more like 6th grade, but he's struggling in 7th grade.

 

Oops! Disregard my post above -- it sounds like DS is in the early stages of learning how to think/build a structure for the argument of his essay. Totally agree with previous posters that hand-holding and helping him think through what needs to come next is absolutely helpful for students in the early stages of trying to think of what to say and how to organize their writing. I'm walking my class of high schoolers through their long essay right now, and still have a lot of strugglers with this process, so I'm doing a LOT of very specific mentoring and talking them through the process. Exhausting, but it does help -- I've seen a LOT of maturing in the writing of several of the students I have had for 2-3 years now! 

 

 

Yes, exhausting! I think we've been stuck in the same WWS "week" for a month! When he writes his fiction for pleasure, he just writes, beginning to end. Sometimes he goes back and makes a few edits, but the plot, characters, and scene are somehow laid out in his mind before he begins. I should talk to him about how that happens and try to relate it to this process.

[kolamum]

Age will have a lot to do with it. :)

[Ausmumof3]

DS is struggling with WWS. He can do it, but it always feels like he's not sure where things are headed or why he's doing something. He's requiring a lot of explanation of how each piece fits into a larger picture. I thought the detailed explanations might be good for him because he's detail-oriented, but they seem to bog him down. We actually ran into the same problem with AoPS pre-algebra (wordy explanations) and switched to Dolciani, which is working well.

 

He's a voracious reader and very fast, often reading 500-700 pages/week. He likes to write fiction, and wrote 70-80 pages for NaNoWriMo last month. However, he has been diagnosed with slow processing speed. (Not sure how that goes with reading really fast?)

 

I'm not sure why someone with a strong reading ability would get bogged down by wordy explanations, but he does. He's a very diligent person so he keeps plodding along, but it's taking a long time and I can see him struggling.

 

As an example, when he was working on a piece about Caesar, the first step was to write about a chronological history of Caesar's life, using the notes from different sources provided by SWB. The next step was to write about Caesar as a person, and the first step of that process was to get out the thesaurus and look up words. He couldn't connect that the thesaurus work was in order to change the words from the original source for his own writing. He just thought of it as a separate thesaurus practice and couldn't look ahead to see why he was doing that work. I assumed that was why SWB was having him do it, but I don't know if that's because I have experience and he does not. I told him to read ahead and it helped, but he still struggles.

 

I'm not sure if we'll switch, but I'd like to look at other programs. So far we've stuck with "SWB is thorough and her materials work for our family" but I'm open to ideas for curriculum with simpler explanation or perhaps one in which the student gets a better idea of the big picture before embarking on a task. Any ideas?

I have no experience with writing with skill specifically but wanted to comment on the reading thing. I've always been one to devour fiction but find it quite hard to keep focussed on non fiction. I wonder if that's part of what's going on?

[mamaraby]

Hand holding.  Lots of hand holding.

 

Ds is a voracious reader of both fiction and non-fiction.  I had him start a daily journal and the words flow there and are pretty darn interesting.  He's not much for creative writing (or at least not anywhere near what his sisters are like).

 

He can handle the narration and one level outline on his own without too much difficulty - maybe a couple of changes here and there, but nothing major.  Day 4 just throws him for a loop.  I have found that Day 4 requires I come along side and help him with each step.  Usually I read the directions for the first step while he follows along in his book.  Then he does what that step requires and comes back to me with what he has written.  I read through it to see what he has written and find out if he's on the right track.  Then I read the directions again while he follows along.  I double check to see that he understands what he's supposed to do and we talk about ways he might approach that step.  He goes to write.  Lather, rinse repeat.

 

It feels very tedious to me, but I've found that if I do this for him, then it's a lot more likely that he will end up with some semblance of the correct assignment. Otherwise?  It's like the kid forgets everything he's ever learned through all previous weeks.  What do you mean I can't just write a bunch of separate sentences and then just stick them together in groups of four sentences and call it a paragraph?  Transitions?  Huh?  This is brand new information!  Also, we can talk about what he's going to write and play around with words together, but when he writes them down it's like his brain is where the words went to die.  He can come up with some great stuff orally, but when he writes it down it's the plainest, most boring thing you've ever read.

 

Another thing that has helped is putting Day 4's writing assignment on our Friday, have him start the assignment, and then have him finish it over our weekend.  I hate him having homework, but on the other hand, it's a small fraction of what kids his age probably have.  It's almost like he has more space in his brain that way.  I've also dropped the longer writing assignments for history figuring WWS is enough for this year.

[KeriJ]

For us, it didn't have anything to do with processing issues.  It's what Lori said about whole to parts/parts to whole.  We just got totally bogged down in the massive amount of details.  DD was in 7th when we did it as well.  She is a very strong reader and natural writer.  I remember SWB saying something to the effect of "if you have a natural writer this will drive them crazy."  It sounds to me like your DS is a natural writer.

 

We switched to Write With the Best Vol. 2.  We are doing lessons on outlining and summarizing in a much more concise way.  DD breathed a huge sigh of relief when we finished the first assignment because suddenly it felt do-able again.  She had gotten paralyzed in her history writing after using WWS because she always worried about remembering all of the steps.

 

We also really struggled with writing from someone else's notes.  That makes no sense to me.  It was much easier for her to take notes on passage and rewrite than to have to figure out someone else's notes.

 

Long story short, for us, WWS was way too detailed!  Now, when we are struggling with something, I do pull it out for reference.  But we just do better with fewer incremental parts and pieces. 

 

ETA: we also use parts of Maxwell's Writing in English and School Composition for the descriptive writing lessons.

Edited December 8, 2016 by KeriJ

[Soror]

 

Would you mind sharing what you are doing? He is older than the program intended. I think WWS was recommended for 5th grade, then SWB said more like 6th grade, but he's struggling in 7th grade.

.

I'm not an expert here-----

I went more of the creative route for this year as I wanted to build confidence and stamina with work I knew he would find more engaging so my 12yo is doing Cover Story this year. At the end of the year I'm planning on going through Intro to Composition by Blackbird- next year I'm planning The Lively Art of Writing. I'm trying to decide if I want to go ahead and go through the other 2 levels of Blackbird or if that is redundant but I need to study some more. My son needs practice but he needs to approach things from various angles.

Edited December 8, 2016 by soror

[idnib]

I have no experience with writing with skill specifically but wanted to comment on the reading thing. I've always been one to devour fiction but find it quite hard to keep focussed on non fiction. I wonder if that's part of what's going on?

 

He does read a fair amount of non-fiction, but aside from the history books we use and Ellen McHenry's materials, it's all his selection. The books I assign him are usually fiction. I think I'll assign him something completely different in non-fiction and see how it goes.

 

Another thing that has helped is putting Day 4's writing assignment on our Friday, have him start the assignment, and then have him finish it over our weekend.  I hate him having homework, but on the other hand, it's a small fraction of what kids his age probably have.  It's almost like he has more space in his brain that way.  I've also dropped the longer writing assignments for history figuring WWS is enough for this year.

 

Our previous rule was that the previous week had to be done by Monday, which sometimes resulted in an hour or two of work on the weekend, but not always. As we went farther into the book, though, I could see how even with his best efforts he was not going to be able to finish in one week so I dropped that so we could take our time.

 

For us, it didn't have anything to do with processing issues.  It's what Lori said about whole to parts/parts to whole.  We just got totally bogged down in the massive amount of details.  DD was in 7th when we did it as well.  She is a very strong reader and natural writer.  I remember SWB saying something to the effect of "if you have a natural writer this will drive them crazy."  It sounds to me like your DS is a natural writer.

 

We switched to Write With the Best Vol. 2.  We are doing lessons on outlining and summarizing in a much more concise way.  DD breathed a huge sigh of relief when we finished the first assignment because suddenly it felt do-able again.  She had gotten paralyzed in her history writing after using WWS because she always worried about remembering all of the steps.

 

We also really struggled with writing from someone else's notes.  That makes no sense to me.  It was much easier for her to take notes on passage and rewrite than to have to figure out someone else's notes.

 

Long story short, for us, WWS was way too detailed!  Now, when we are struggling with something, I do pull it out for reference.  But we just do better with fewer incremental parts and pieces. 

 

ETA: we also use parts of Maxwell's Writing in English and School Composition for the descriptive writing lessons.

 

 

The natural writer seems like it could be a good fit. Honestly, when I started the WWE and WWS path he didn't seem like a natural writer, which was one of the reasons I chose it. He would often cry when he was learning letters, needed therapy for his hand strength, never wrote more than he absolutely had to, etc. All of this blossoming has only happened in the last year or so and I must admit I have been very surprised. Looking back, though, I remember I dropped spelling and only skimmed grammar because he seemed to grasp it very quickly and without much assistance. I'll check out Maxwell too. Thanks.

[PeterPan]

Well if it sets your mind at all at ease, my dd did WWS1 in 8th, WWS2 in 9th, and she's doing AMAZINGLY well in freshman comp with a good solid university (not cc, not easy). In fact, I'll take it one step further and say my dd, who has had a neuropsych eval (like it sounds like your ds has) COULD NOT HAVE DONE WWS in 7th. Just flat saying it. So just that he's trying means something! 

 

Lori gave you some tips on rearranging the thought process.  I went pretty extreme. I took highlighters to the entire book, marking the important points she had to get, for as many pages as I was chunking for a day. We were accelerating and skipping as fit her, so it could have been 1-3 lessons of material in a day, and they'd all be the same color (blue, whatever). I've got old posts where I talked about this. Do you know how to google site search? Go to your google bar and type your terms (WWS OhElizabeth or WWS highlighter or WWS problems or whatever you want) and site:welltrainedmind.com  Magic.  :)  

 

Anyways, yes we highlighted the dickens out of the book.  Yes it's obnoxious to work with.  My kid was just drowning in the wordiness. It's utterly joyless and dry, with no audience, no point, no soul, no reason. I STRONGLY encourage you to create audience, point, perspective, SOMETHING. Bring some soul into it!  My favorite one was where I told her to roast the guy from the perspective of Trump on the Apprentice (you're fired and here's why!). They need audience, soul, reason. Not all kids work merely because they're told to.  The brighter the are, the more incredibly important this can become.

 

Play with it, own it, modify it. Personally I think it's useful but torturous. That's why we did it later but faster. I encourage you to do it like bandaid ripping--so fast they don't know what happened. Do it for a while, blowing through a ton, then go do something else. Or alternate weeks with the poetry or something more joyful. There's a really fun 180 Days of Writing you could alternate it with.  Or alternate it with writing prompts. Or alternate it with word games. Or alternate it with literature genres to explore.  The BJU lit 7 really inspired us with new genres and types of things we hadn't read before. She became a fan of McManus. Shake it up. Or do some art or comic drawing or something. We did a book on the making of comics last year that she really enjoyed. Don't get too stuck. It's torture, so keep it brief, blistering, and move on.

[PeterPan]

Did the psych diagnose dysgraphia with that low coding score? You have him typing or using dictation? Did he get OT for his hands? It's definitely not too late to work on all that. We used Inspiration software with WWS, and I HIGHLY recommend it. She always has access to dictation and typing.  I make her hand write NOTHING. She doesn't even have a dysgraphia label, but it's just not functional for her. With that coding score, you should have gotten a diagnosis, seems to me. Make sure he's typing EVERYTHING or using dictation.  Might make a huge difference. Now a kindle fire, ipad, anything will have dictation ability.

[idnib]

Did the psych diagnose dysgraphia with that low coding score? You have him typing or using dictation? Did he get OT for his hands? It's definitely not too late to work on all that. We used Inspiration software with WWS, and I HIGHLY recommend it. She always has access to dictation and typing.  I make her hand write NOTHING. She doesn't even have a dysgraphia label, but it's just not functional for her. With that coding score, you should have gotten a diagnosis, seems to me. Make sure he's typing EVERYTHING or using dictation.  Might make a huge difference. Now a kindle fire, ipad, anything will have dictation ability.

 

 

Thank you very much for all this information. It's very helpful to know your DD is doing well in university!

 

The neuropsych did not diagnose dysgraphia. Perhaps she would have if she had seen him when he was younger, but we didn't take him until he was 10. He did get OT for his hands when he was 3-5 and we also started him on cello to strengthen his hands when he was 9. He enjoys it and plays quite a bit. His hand strength is good now, and the neuropsych said he has good handwriting and she was happy I had taken the time to teach him cursive. He does prefer to type instead of write, but I think it's because he likes being able to go back and edit easily. He can probably write a full page before his hand gets tired, which is better than I can do, anyway. He took an online typing course so he could learn to touch type. I'll look into the dictation thing as well.

Edited December 9, 2016 by idnib

[Colleen in NS]

About the "big picture" and "whole-to-parts" vs. "parts-to-whole" - I'm guessing he is 12 or 13, so I wonder if he is grasping for the big picture just because of his age.  I know when I started WWS with my son and then my daughter, *I* struggled to figure out where all those details were going, lol.  I figured that was because I am an adult.  Because, as of two days ago lol, I've officially finished teaching WWS 1-3 twice, I can look back through all three levels and see the big picture.  So I'm just wondering if it's just esp. frustrating for your son because he's just entering the age where he's questioning everything, not just any particular program.  If you see the big picture of all the detailed instruction, could you just carry on with giving him the "big picture" explanation as he asks for it?  Would he better be able to cope with it if he just trusts you that all the detail is getting him somewhere?

 

I can't now exactly remember when, but I think my son started WWS 1 in Grade 8.  So he was definitely older than the original intended audience.  But I had used the WTM methods and then a skim-through of the WWE Instructor Guide with him, so I figured carrying on with the methods would be helpful for him.  He finished WWS 3 sometime in Grade 11.  And by the way, he was one of those boys who "hated writing."  He, too, struggled early on with writing out sentences and hand cramps.  WWE/WTM 4th level dictation was torture for him, and I had to reduce the amounts.  :D  He also had to transition from copywork to dictation via a tape recorder.  But hey, it worked and that's what counted.  I also let him learn to type earlier than I had planned, and I let him use it for his writing earlier (but I had taught him to print and do cursive, and had him continue practice in those things - I'm glad I did, because he had to write his SAT essay by hand, and even this fall in his first year university English course, he had to write lots of essays in class by hand).

 

And then there's my daughter, who loves to do creative writing.  She just finished WWS 3 on Friday (yay! and her final project was excellent!).  I'm glad I had her work through all the levels because all those details gave her more of a structure to work from.  Yes, it takes time to get used to following all of the steps involved, but after you get used to them, you use them (or not) as you see fit in any writing project anyway.  It was good for her free-flowing self to have something to work from because now she knows how to research an idea and put it into an essay in a variety of different forms.

 

My son, who is super-glad that his first-year-university English course is now over so he can move on to science, math, and all of his loves; told me an interesting story a few weeks ago.  He was just enduring his English class for the credit requirement.  And he dreaded having to write response essays *in class and by hand and in a time crunch.*  I just reminded him, "Remember the steps of the topoi, Those are what will help you dig around in your mind as you write.  You can do this."  Then he dreaded having to write a mid-term essay (outside of class).  But he did his best and gritted his teeth just to get it all done.  And one day his English professor stopped him in the hallway and said to him, "Where did you learn to write so well??"  She had given him the top grade she could for his mid-term essay, and she has written all sorts of positive comments on his various in-class assignments.  I was over. the. moon. when he told me all this.  He has come a long way from that little boy who hated taking dictation by hand, lol.

 

Anyway, my vote is that you keep going with WWS - it sounds like he is still willing, even if he struggles to grasp the big picture.  Another thing; it's OK if you take more than a week for a "one week" assignment in there.  We did that a lot, with both of my kids, for various reasons. 

 

hth