Latin Pros : A few more questions (getting lost in my other thread)

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I started the thread on Latin training for teachers a few days ago, and am now ready to ask some more pointed questions, but I think they are getting buried in my old thread.  

 

First, FOR ME (adult learner, probably able to do 30min/day)

 

What do you think of the following sequence:

 

Getting Started With Latin

Either Henle or Wheelock, along with an associated workbook 

At some point, folding in Lingua Latina and maybe gradually shifting that to my primary text

 

I'm really torn because I like the idea of Henle, but Wheelock has so many supplemental materials that look very helpful.  And LLPSI looks way more interesting than either of the other texts, but I'm afraid it will overwhelm me after a few chapters, which seems to be a common complaint.  That's why I thought I'd start it once I was doing well in one of the other, more common beginner texts.  I'm wondering if getting all the add-ons to LLPSI would fix that, but I do like the whole controlled/limited vocab of Henle idea for solidifying grammar first.  

 

I just read this great article: How I Came to Read Latin Extensively and that's pretty much how I envision my learning going, but not nearly at that accelerated pace.  

 

From there, I imagine taking my (future) 5th grader through :

GSWL

whichever base text (Henle, Wheelock)

LLPSI

 

Are these reasonable sequences?  I'd really like to avoid most of the aimed-at-kids Latin programs out there, as they look like a bit of a waste of time.  My idea is to get a year's head start on my kid, and then have enough "big picture" to be able to appropriately pace a standard high school or college text to his abilities.  

 

 

[SarahW]

I think that looks like a good plan.

 

If you wanted, you could get Orberg along with everything else and just pick it up once a week to read and see how far you get. I think Orberg begins by concentrating on nouns, and so does Henle, so that might be a good combo. And if Orberg makes you freak out, you can run back to something easier for a while. But if it does work, there you go.

 

The point of learning Latin is to read Latin, so to make sure you get there Orberg is a good plan. But the guy in that (excellent) article came to Orberg having already memorized all the forms. That's pretty normal in the grand scale of how Latin has been learned. That was the whole point of "grammar" school - to learn the forms (cue the stories of terrified boys rattling off paradigms while the instructor caressed a cane). Then you read, read, read in secondary. Then in University you study the language and then compose in Latin new texts. If diving straight into Orberg gives you the first and second step in one fell swoop, that's great. But I do doubt it would work for everyone.

 

I did try to do an Orberg-ish thing last year with my kid by doing Minimus after SSL2. It didn't work as well as I had hoped. It was fun, no doubt, but after thinking about it I realized that though Minimus is designed to be a natural immersion method book, it doesn't have enough Latin in it, and it doesn't have enough Latin repetition in it. Maybe just reading the "comic strip" part over and over would've made it more useful.

 

Speaking of children's programs, I've realized that, funnily enough, just in number of forms presented, SSL2 has more grammar in it than Cambridge book 1. I know that's a low bar, but still. The thing about MP, CAP and others espousing the "old" way of making children memorize all the forms, is that they don't seem comfortable to take the next step and move the child into the read, read, read stage. After 6 or 7 years of Latin you shouldn't be in Henle book 1 anymore, no, no matter what age you started at.

 

I'm blabbing. Sorry. It looks like a good plan to me.  :thumbup:

 

But if anyone's interested, in making this post I realized that the online Cambridge Latin Course looks completely free and available at the moment.  :sneaky2:

[happypamama]

I hate the look of Henle. I decided I didn't care if it was the best Latin ever; it was small print and a fat little book that just didn't look user friendly. So ymmv. I think Wheelock looked better, but I ultimately went with Latin Alive for older students/me because it was geared toward the NLE, and I just liked the look of it. Buuuuut, maybe not a ton of explanation for a newbie, although after GSWL, you might be fine.

 

I agree that the kid-oriented programs may be a waste of your time. The only reason you might want one is for the repetition and explanation because they really break things down. But it'll depend on you and then your child and what clicks for you.

[8filltheheart]

I'd just start off with Wheelock. (I own Henle and I really don't like it. I personally like Wheelock a lot more. (Should I run and hide as a devout Catholic. ;) ))

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I'd just start off with Wheelock. (I own Henle and I really don't like it. I personally like Wheelock a lot more. (Should I run and hide as a devout Catholic. ;) ))

 

Yeah, i have to say my big lean to Henle is because he's a priest... but if you say Wheelock,  I'll go Wheelock.  lol.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I hate the look of Henle. I decided I didn't care if it was the best Latin ever; it was small print and a fat little book that just didn't look user friendly. So ymmv. I think Wheelock looked better, but I ultimately went with Latin Alive for older students/me because it was geared toward the NLE, and I just liked the look of it. Buuuuut, maybe not a ton of explanation for a newbie, although after GSWL, you might be fine.

 

I agree that the kid-oriented programs may be a waste of your time. The only reason you might want one is for the repetition and explanation because they really break things down. But it'll depend on you and then your child and what clicks for you.

 

This is very helpful.  Small text is extremely hard on my eyes, so that is probably a good enough reason for me to do Wheelock.  Thanks!

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ok, UPDATE:

 

I've decided on Wheelock's.  Now, what would you say are the best components considering there are about a million things out there?

[Tranquility7]

Ok, UPDATE:

 

I've decided on Wheelock's.  Now, what would you say are the best components considering there are about a million things out there?

 

Awwwwwwww, I saw your post last night and wanted to sing the praises of LLPSI to you, and share my LLPSI method with you! Am I too late? Can I do it anyway? Can't now, but maybe tonight... unless I'm really too late, LOL  ;-)

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Awwwwwwww, I saw your post last night and wanted to sing the praises of LLPSI to you, and share my LLPSI method with you! Am I too late? Can I do it anyway? Can't now, but maybe tonight... unless I'm really too late, LOL ;-)

It's not too late! Talk me into LLPSI, it's what I really want to use anyway!

[Tranquility7]

It's not too late! Talk me into LLPSI, it's what I really want to use anyway!

 

Okie dokie, I’m gonna try!! Apologies for the enumerated lists, but I thought it would make it easier for me to explain myself  :-)

 

First, a little bit of background and current status of my situation –

1. I knew absolutely no Latin when we started. I had taken 3 yrs of French and 2 yrs of Chinese in high school and college, loved both, but never approached fluency in either. Why, why, why?? I think this is a perennial experience of many language students, and I was no different.
2. My DS is a bright student, but not extraordinary. I would describe him as “linguistically precocious†in some ways; he did not speak or read early (in fact, didn’t really talk until around 3, and started reading around 5.5). However, even before he could read, he had a precocious understanding of grammar and absolutely loved it. He loved talking about parts of speech and subjects and predicates and that sort of thing, so we did a bunch of grammar just because he thought it was fun. But it began to get very repetitive, so I started thinking about adding in Latin at around 5.5.
3. My energy and enthusiasm wane when faced with inefficiency, busy work, ineffective teaching, things that are too easy, and things that are too difficult. As a result, I have come to adore researching curricula and teaching approaches and figuring out what program or approach will work best both for me and for my student.
4. I love to understand (and need to understand) the “big picture†of whatever I am learning and teaching.
5. I believe in Socratic and discussion-based teaching, but find myself needing to always learn, learn, learn in order to equip myself to actually HAVE those discussions. That is fine with me, since I love to learn J
6. I believe we have exchanged posts in the past re: Anki, and I recall that you were the one who recommended Fluent Forever to me (FABULOUS READ, btw!!!), and I think we have some similar perspectives on learning and teaching, and we seem to overlap in several currics we have chosen (MCT, Most Wonderful, SM, SOTW, BFSU (though I confess I don’t use that as intended), DuoLingo). So that is one reason I really wanted to encourage you about LLPSI – because I honestly think that you might love it…!  (Btw, I admire that you have a blog; I’ve always wanted to but can never find the time!)

 

Our Latin sequence so far –

1. DS learned English grammar to the point of knowing parts of speech and basic parts of the sentence (e.g., through MCT Island level)
2. GSWL – we started when DS was 5.5 and took a year on it (and I just finished doing the same with my DD6). For an older student – say, 10 or 11 – it might take 6 mos. As an adult learner you could probably do it in a couple of months if you were really committed, but I think taking longer is actually better, so I’d probably space it out to 3-4 months. However, I’d suggest doing the first half of the book in the first month (it is super easy) and then using the rest of the time on the remaining lessons, because they do get more complicated and time-consuming. But really the whole book is great –easy to implement, with no fluff or silly time wasters along the way. His teaching approach is simultaneously extremely incremental and yet also whole-to-parts.
3. While doing GSWL I was rather obsessively building a ridiculously large library of used Latin curricula (to try to figure out what to do next). Seriously, it was out of hand, LOL. But it was helpful because I could use different books as references to look up grammar concepts I was learning in GSWL, and could compare both the presentation of the concept as well as the overall scope and sequence of the different curricula.
4. When we finished GSWL, we dabbled in several different programs (particularly LFCA and Latin Alive). I dropped LFCA fairly quickly, because it was just soooo little reading after GSWL. Then I moved on to Latin Alive. One of my goals was to teach Latin *in* Latin, and Latin Alive offered some language tips to help me do that, so I thought we could make it work. It’s actually a pretty good program, and if I had to use a “regular†program, it would be a contender.
5.  However, one day we opened up LLPSI and DS was amazed and excited that he could actually read not just sentences, but *pages* of Latin!
6. We have been committed to LLPSI ever since then. We do use some additional resources (more on that later), and we have discovered some helpful study habits over the years (also more on that later). We are currently on chapter 23 of 35. That seems like slow progress, but considering that it’s a college textbook, DS was 6 when we started, we have had some breaks along the way, and we also began studying Chinese 1.5 yrs ago, and Spanish 6 mos ago – well, I think our progress is pretty good! And at chapter 23, DS knows 1000++ words (and **really knows** them, not just kinda knows them), as well as all the declensions, all the parts of speech, all the (zillion!) pronouns, lots of uses of ablative, and loads of other grammar concepts (you probably already know LLPSI includes all Latin grammar). I think that is all pretty good for a 10 yr old.
7. We actually enrolled in Lone Pine Latin 100 this year (it uses LLPSI and covers chaps 1-16 in the 100 level); DS already knows all of the vocab and grammar they will cover for the year (though he is technically too young for the class), but it has turned out great anyway, simply because the teacher includes a ton of Roman history, culture, and mythology that has been a good challenge for him. The main reason we enrolled him in it, though, was simply to reinvigorate our own Latin studies. I thought DS needed to see other motivated and enthusiastic kids enjoying Latin, as well as have a Latin expert respond to some of the writing we were doing as part of his Exercitia (the free-answer questions are not answered in the Answer Key). We are both really pleased with how it is going.

 

So that is what we have done so far. Apologies for being so long-winded, but I really believe the success of using LLPSI is not just in the book itself, but also in how it is used. So I want to give you some additional practical recommendations:

 

1. Have basic English grammar down first (definitely all eight parts of speech and the basic parts of the sentence (subject and predicate, and preferably also DO, IO, PA/PN, prep phr)
2. Do GSWL first. Orally is fine.
3. While doing GSWL, you can start chanting endings for the declensions and conjugations it teaches (I believe 1^st and 2^nd decl and 1^st and 2^nd conj, and a couple of irregular verbs). I don’t recall that the book actually tells you to do that, but I think it is helpful. Writing them out might also helpful if you have the time.
4. Try to learn how to converse *about* Latin *in* Latin. This helps you get more comfortable with the language, and in time is gets pretty easy. But it does require some upfront effort to learn how to ask the basic questions that you will eventually ask of your DS once he is studying with you – things like: What case is it? What number? What gender? Which declension? Which conjugation? etc. I can share my homemade cheat sheet with you if you want. It is a work in progress, of course.
5. Occasionally – and especially on any sentence where you are really struggling to figure it out – do an MCT-style 4-level analysis on a sentence. Label all the parts of speech. Then for verbs, determine their conjugation, number, and tense. For nouns, see if you can figure out what declension, gender, number, and case. From that, determine your subject. Identify prepositional phrases (and the case of their objects). Ideally, once your DS is studying with you, you can have this whole conversation with him in Latin. ;-)
6. After GSWL, start LLPSI. Don’t try to translate it – just read. You will impress yourself as you easily read through the first chapter or two, and it is fun!
7. As you start LLPSI, immediately begin vocab review using a spaced repetition system (I recall you use Anki, which I love love love!). LLPSI teaches a LOT of vocab. It is fun and interesting to learn (and relatively easy to learn since it is all taught in a story context), but it does pile up. Spaced repetition is by far the most efficient review method, and if you use Anki, I can share my decks with you (they definitely are a work in progress, but they are a huge leg up from nothing; I’ve spent many hours creating them – PM me if you are interested). (By the way, I totally understand the appeal of Henle’s small amount of vocab; but the fact is, to read in Latin without your progress being constantly hindered by reliance on glossaries, you need to build a large vocab. LLPSI makes it a pleasure, and spaced repetition makes it efficient.)
8. ** Two specific tips re: vocab cards – 1) Make sure to use full dictionary entries, not just the form used in the chapter, and use macrons because they help with both case identification and pronunciation, and 2) add context sentences as hints. This idea just popped into my head one day, but it may also be mentioned in Fluent Forever (they actually recommend more complicated cards than I am doing, but so far I like my hint sentence method better). Basically, for any words that are not immediately easy to remember, pick at least one sentence directly from LLPSI that includes that word, and include it on your card. In Anki, put the sentence in a separate field so that you can manipulate it differently (I make it a hint, so basically, the card gives you the Latin word (dictionary format), and if you can’t remember the meaning, you can click to see the Hint Sentence, so then you see the word in context and try to remember it that way. I always click Again if we had to see the sentence before remembering, but a case could be made that if you know the meaning of the word in context, that should be sufficient for a Hard rating.)
9. Use the College Companion book to help explain grammar concepts. Also use other resources for further explanations (Wheelocks, Henle, Latin Alive, etc.), and use the Exercitia book for practice (in addition to the pensum in the textbook). Most of the Exercitia are fill in the blank (which are answered in the Answer key) but some are short answer, and you will need to find a way to get those corrected. There is an LLPSI forum on reddit that has helped me a bit with that in the past, if you don’t know any Latin pros irl. DS and I might also be able to help with that, too… PM me if you are interested.
10. Add grammar to your spaced repetition system also. This has been a recent addition for me, but it is of great benefit and I wish I had started it from the beginning. Basically, I add questions that explicitly discuss a grammar concept (e.g., “How is passive infinitive formed?â€), but then I also add much of the Exercitia itself to Anki (thanks to Fluent Forever!). Adding the Exercitia is *so* helpful because it continually re-exposes you to a grammar concept or sentence pattern even when you are long past the chapter containing that concept. I am way behind on adding these to Anki (since they are a late addition to our study habits), but now that I see how helpful these are, I definitely wish I’d done it from the start.
11. Add “recitation†tasks to your studies as you encounter concepts in LLPSI. As much as I love the reading method of learning, some explicit grammar instruction and practice really is beneficial. The scope and sequence of LLPSI is very different from other books, and after the first few chapters he starts introducing pronouns, and by chapter 8 you have a full arsenal of pronouns, interrogative and relative pronouns, demonstrative pronouns, etc. in all their various forms. It can get crazy! Having a habit of writing them out periodically really will help reading comprehension and retention over time.
12. Do LOTS of rereading! Don’t think of LLPSI as linear (as in, read chapter 1, then 2, then 3, then 4, …). You will get far more out of it if you view it more cyclically, with different tasks to do, and different chapters along the way. For instance, in our studies right now, we are newly reading chapter 23 (and we understood that fairly easily the first time we read it). However, I’ve only entered vocab into Anki through chapter 17, and we have done Exercitia only through chapter 15, and entered Exercitia into Anki only through chapter 6 (since I only started that in this past fall). Over time I’ve realized that it is better to read a chapter several times before encountering the vocab in Anki (that way when we do get the vocab in Anki, we usually already know it, so it gets spaced out more quickly). And we only want to do Exercitia for a chapter once we really know the vocab and grammar, otherwise the Exercitia takes us for.ev.er (esp in later chapters)!
13. Take a LLPSI break when you need one. Sometimes we get to a point where we just need to “tread water†for a while and not make new progress in LLPSI. When those times come, I keep going on all of our Anki reviews (both vocab and grammar) but just stop reading ahead. I typically pick up Minimus, Cambridge, or any of a number of free old-timey Latin readers I’ve found free online. It’s fun to see how much we can understand, and it really does reinforce our learning even if they have glosses. It also helps me to appreciate LLPSI all the more, since most early Latin readers are not written anywhere near as well as LLPSI in terms of being “Latin onlyâ€, and they don’t explain themselves within the text. But they are still good reads, and super helpful during breaks.
14. Don’t be in a rush. This Lone Pine class we are in has been eye-opening in it’s speed in particular. We love the class, but it covers chapters 1-16 in 9 months. That might be doable, but I’m not yet convinced that kids trying to go through LLPSI at that pace don’t end up with a pretty shaky grasp of both the grammar and vocab (particularly considering all the history, culture, and mythology she also requires). At least I think we would, if we were in that situation. By contrast, DS really knows this stuff inside and out because of having had such consistent spaced repetition review through Anki over a longer period of time.

 

Ok, this is ridiculously long now. Sorry!!! I’m going to send it off without proofing since I’m too tired to read through it at the moment… hopefully it’s helpful to you, though. I really do think you might love LLPSI, and if you do end up doing it, I’d be happy to answer more questions about how we have done it so far. My goal is to be totally done with Latin grammar by the time DS is 12 or 13, and get ourselves into reading real Latin texts by then. So far we are on track for that, and really enjoying the journey so much more than I ever anticipated.

[EndOfOrdinary]

How significant is your grammar background? The best thing I could have donefor Ds is to give him an entire year of formal grammar instruction. We used a lighter book, because he was young. If he was going to start in fifth, I would have gone with as hardcore of a textbook as I could find, drill academic names and complex diagramming, and really make sure he could take apart a sentence. Over and over it has paid off. He is not trying to learn Latin and grammar at the same time.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

How significant is your grammar background? The best thing I could have donefor Ds is to give him an entire year of formal grammar instruction. We used a lighter book, because he was young. If he was going to start in fifth, I would have gone with as hardcore of a textbook as I could find, drill academic names and complex diagramming, and really make sure he could take apart a sentence. Over and over it has paid off. He is not trying to learn Latin and grammar at the same time.

 

My grammar is quite solid, and the kids have, compared to American peers, probably very solid grammar.  Because they are bilingual English-French and learning German, they have a pretty good grasp on a number of concepts American kids just don't see until they start a foreign language.  

 

Parts of Speech- done

Parts of sentences- the basics, but I'm now going through diagramming with them to solidify this.

 

For nouns: gender and number, common or proper, concrete or abstract, definite and indefinite articles and their agreement, adjective agreement for gender and number

 

Verbs: person and number, can conjugate present, imperfect, passé composé, plus-que-parfait, future.  Haven't done any subjunctive tenses yet, but they can obviously use them in oral conversation.  

 

Case: They are starting to have some case stuff in German, but since I totally outsourced their German, I don't know anything about it myself!  lol.  So I guess they are ahead of me!

 

 

So, for example, they could take the sentence "Le chien a mangé un chat." (The dog ate a cat) and say:

Le: definite article, masculine, singular

chien: noun, masculine, singular, subject of sentence

a mangé: verb manger, passé composé 3rd person singular, predicate of sentence

un: indefinite article, masculine singular

chat: noun, masculine, singular, direct object

 

... and so on.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Okie dokie, I’m gonna try!! Apologies for the enumerated lists, but I thought it would make it easier for me to explain myself  :-)

 

First, a little bit of background and current status of my situation –

1. I knew absolutely no Latin when we started. I had taken 3 yrs of French and 2 yrs of Chinese in high school and college, loved both, but never approached fluency in either. Why, why, why?? I think this is a perennial experience of many language students, and I was no different.
2. My DS is a bright student, but not extraordinary. I would describe him as “linguistically precocious†in some ways; he did not speak or read early (in fact, didn’t really talk until around 3, and started reading around 5.5). However, even before he could read, he had a precocious understanding of grammar and absolutely loved it. He loved talking about parts of speech and subjects and predicates and that sort of thing, so we did a bunch of grammar just because he thought it was fun. But it began to get very repetitive, so I started thinking about adding in Latin at around 5.5.
3. My energy and enthusiasm wane when faced with inefficiency, busy work, ineffective teaching, things that are too easy, and things that are too difficult. As a result, I have come to adore researching curricula and teaching approaches and figuring out what program or approach will work best both for me and for my student.
4. I love to understand (and need to understand) the “big picture†of whatever I am learning and teaching.
5. I believe in Socratic and discussion-based teaching, but find myself needing to always learn, learn, learn in order to equip myself to actually HAVE those discussions. That is fine with me, since I love to learn J
6. I believe we have exchanged posts in the past re: Anki, and I recall that you were the one who recommended Fluent Forever to me (FABULOUS READ, btw!!!), and I think we have some similar perspectives on learning and teaching, and we seem to overlap in several currics we have chosen (MCT, Most Wonderful, SM, SOTW, BFSU (though I confess I don’t use that as intended), DuoLingo). So that is one reason I really wanted to encourage you about LLPSI – because I honestly think that you might love it…!  (Btw, I admire that you have a blog; I’ve always wanted to but can never find the time!)

 

Our Latin sequence so far –

1. DS learned English grammar to the point of knowing parts of speech and basic parts of the sentence (e.g., through MCT Island level)
2. GSWL – we started when DS was 5.5 and took a year on it (and I just finished doing the same with my DD6). For an older student – say, 10 or 11 – it might take 6 mos. As an adult learner you could probably do it in a couple of months if you were really committed, but I think taking longer is actually better, so I’d probably space it out to 3-4 months. However, I’d suggest doing the first half of the book in the first month (it is super easy) and then using the rest of the time on the remaining lessons, because they do get more complicated and time-consuming. But really the whole book is great –easy to implement, with no fluff or silly time wasters along the way. His teaching approach is simultaneously extremely incremental and yet also whole-to-parts.
3. While doing GSWL I was rather obsessively building a ridiculously large library of used Latin curricula (to try to figure out what to do next). Seriously, it was out of hand, LOL. But it was helpful because I could use different books as references to look up grammar concepts I was learning in GSWL, and could compare both the presentation of the concept as well as the overall scope and sequence of the different curricula.
4. When we finished GSWL, we dabbled in several different programs (particularly LFCA and Latin Alive). I dropped LFCA fairly quickly, because it was just soooo little reading after GSWL. Then I moved on to Latin Alive. One of my goals was to teach Latin *in* Latin, and Latin Alive offered some language tips to help me do that, so I thought we could make it work. It’s actually a pretty good program, and if I had to use a “regular†program, it would be a contender.
5.  However, one day we opened up LLPSI and DS was amazed and excited that he could actually read not just sentences, but *pages* of Latin!
6. We have been committed to LLPSI ever since then. We do use some additional resources (more on that later), and we have discovered some helpful study habits over the years (also more on that later). We are currently on chapter 23 of 35. That seems like slow progress, but considering that it’s a college textbook, DS was 6 when we started, we have had some breaks along the way, and we also began studying Chinese 1.5 yrs ago, and Spanish 6 mos ago – well, I think our progress is pretty good! And at chapter 23, DS knows 1000++ words (and **really knows** them, not just kinda knows them), as well as all the declensions, all the parts of speech, all the (zillion!) pronouns, lots of uses of ablative, and loads of other grammar concepts (you probably already know LLPSI includes all Latin grammar). I think that is all pretty good for a 10 yr old.
7. We actually enrolled in Lone Pine Latin 100 this year (it uses LLPSI and covers chaps 1-16 in the 100 level); DS already knows all of the vocab and grammar they will cover for the year (though he is technically too young for the class), but it has turned out great anyway, simply because the teacher includes a ton of Roman history, culture, and mythology that has been a good challenge for him. The main reason we enrolled him in it, though, was simply to reinvigorate our own Latin studies. I thought DS needed to see other motivated and enthusiastic kids enjoying Latin, as well as have a Latin expert respond to some of the writing we were doing as part of his Exercitia (the free-answer questions are not answered in the Answer Key). We are both really pleased with how it is going.

 

So that is what we have done so far. Apologies for being so long-winded, but I really believe the success of using LLPSI is not just in the book itself, but also in how it is used. So I want to give you some additional practical recommendations:

 

1. Have basic English grammar down first (definitely all eight parts of speech and the basic parts of the sentence (subject and predicate, and preferably also DO, IO, PA/PN, prep phr)
2. Do GSWL first. Orally is fine.
3. While doing GSWL, you can start chanting endings for the declensions and conjugations it teaches (I believe 1^st and 2^nd decl and 1^st and 2^nd conj, and a couple of irregular verbs). I don’t recall that the book actually tells you to do that, but I think it is helpful. Writing them out might also helpful if you have the time.
4. Try to learn how to converse *about* Latin *in* Latin. This helps you get more comfortable with the language, and in time is gets pretty easy. But it does require some upfront effort to learn how to ask the basic questions that you will eventually ask of your DS once he is studying with you – things like: What case is it? What number? What gender? Which declension? Which conjugation? etc. I can share my homemade cheat sheet with you if you want. It is a work in progress, of course.
5. Occasionally – and especially on any sentence where you are really struggling to figure it out – do an MCT-style 4-level analysis on a sentence. Label all the parts of speech. Then for verbs, determine their conjugation, number, and tense. For nouns, see if you can figure out what declension, gender, number, and case. From that, determine your subject. Identify prepositional phrases (and the case of their objects). Ideally, once your DS is studying with you, you can have this whole conversation with him in Latin. ;-)
6. After GSWL, start LLPSI. Don’t try to translate it – just read. You will impress yourself as you easily read through the first chapter or two, and it is fun!
7. As you start LLPSI, immediately begin vocab review using a spaced repetition system (I recall you use Anki, which I love love love!). LLPSI teaches a LOT of vocab. It is fun and interesting to learn (and relatively easy to learn since it is all taught in a story context), but it does pile up. Spaced repetition is by far the most efficient review method, and if you use Anki, I can share my decks with you (they definitely are a work in progress, but they are a huge leg up from nothing; I’ve spent many hours creating them – PM me if you are interested). (By the way, I totally understand the appeal of Henle’s small amount of vocab; but the fact is, to read in Latin without your progress being constantly hindered by reliance on glossaries, you need to build a large vocab. LLPSI makes it a pleasure, and spaced repetition makes it efficient.)
8. ** Two specific tips re: vocab cards – 1) Make sure to use full dictionary entries, not just the form used in the chapter, and use macrons because they help with both case identification and pronunciation, and 2) add context sentences as hints. This idea just popped into my head one day, but it may also be mentioned in Fluent Forever (they actually recommend more complicated cards than I am doing, but so far I like my hint sentence method better). Basically, for any words that are not immediately easy to remember, pick at least one sentence directly from LLPSI that includes that word, and include it on your card. In Anki, put the sentence in a separate field so that you can manipulate it differently (I make it a hint, so basically, the card gives you the Latin word (dictionary format), and if you can’t remember the meaning, you can click to see the Hint Sentence, so then you see the word in context and try to remember it that way. I always click Again if we had to see the sentence before remembering, but a case could be made that if you know the meaning of the word in context, that should be sufficient for a Hard rating.)
9. Use the College Companion book to help explain grammar concepts. Also use other resources for further explanations (Wheelocks, Henle, Latin Alive, etc.), and use the Exercitia book for practice (in addition to the pensum in the textbook). Most of the Exercitia are fill in the blank (which are answered in the Answer key) but some are short answer, and you will need to find a way to get those corrected. There is an LLPSI forum on reddit that has helped me a bit with that in the past, if you don’t know any Latin pros irl. DS and I might also be able to help with that, too… PM me if you are interested.
10. Add grammar to your spaced repetition system also. This has been a recent addition for me, but it is of great benefit and I wish I had started it from the beginning. Basically, I add questions that explicitly discuss a grammar concept (e.g., “How is passive infinitive formed?â€), but then I also add much of the Exercitia itself to Anki (thanks to Fluent Forever!). Adding the Exercitia is *so* helpful because it continually re-exposes you to a grammar concept or sentence pattern even when you are long past the chapter containing that concept. I am way behind on adding these to Anki (since they are a late addition to our study habits), but now that I see how helpful these are, I definitely wish I’d done it from the start.
11. Add “recitation†tasks to your studies as you encounter concepts in LLPSI. As much as I love the reading method of learning, some explicit grammar instruction and practice really is beneficial. The scope and sequence of LLPSI is very different from other books, and after the first few chapters he starts introducing pronouns, and by chapter 8 you have a full arsenal of pronouns, interrogative and relative pronouns, demonstrative pronouns, etc. in all their various forms. It can get crazy! Having a habit of writing them out periodically really will help reading comprehension and retention over time.
12. Do LOTS of rereading! Don’t think of LLPSI as linear (as in, read chapter 1, then 2, then 3, then 4, …). You will get far more out of it if you view it more cyclically, with different tasks to do, and different chapters along the way. For instance, in our studies right now, we are newly reading chapter 23 (and we understood that fairly easily the first time we read it). However, I’ve only entered vocab into Anki through chapter 17, and we have done Exercitia only through chapter 15, and entered Exercitia into Anki only through chapter 6 (since I only started that in this past fall). Over time I’ve realized that it is better to read a chapter several times before encountering the vocab in Anki (that way when we do get the vocab in Anki, we usually already know it, so it gets spaced out more quickly). And we only want to do Exercitia for a chapter once we really know the vocab and grammar, otherwise the Exercitia takes us for.ev.er (esp in later chapters)!
13. Take a LLPSI break when you need one. Sometimes we get to a point where we just need to “tread water†for a while and not make new progress in LLPSI. When those times come, I keep going on all of our Anki reviews (both vocab and grammar) but just stop reading ahead. I typically pick up Minimus, Cambridge, or any of a number of free old-timey Latin readers I’ve found free online. It’s fun to see how much we can understand, and it really does reinforce our learning even if they have glosses. It also helps me to appreciate LLPSI all the more, since most early Latin readers are not written anywhere near as well as LLPSI in terms of being “Latin onlyâ€, and they don’t explain themselves within the text. But they are still good reads, and super helpful during breaks.
14. Don’t be in a rush. This Lone Pine class we are in has been eye-opening in it’s speed in particular. We love the class, but it covers chapters 1-16 in 9 months. That might be doable, but I’m not yet convinced that kids trying to go through LLPSI at that pace don’t end up with a pretty shaky grasp of both the grammar and vocab (particularly considering all the history, culture, and mythology she also requires). At least I think we would, if we were in that situation. By contrast, DS really knows this stuff inside and out because of having had such consistent spaced repetition review through Anki over a longer period of time.

 

Ok, this is ridiculously long now. Sorry!!! I’m going to send it off without proofing since I’m too tired to read through it at the moment… hopefully it’s helpful to you, though. I really do think you might love LLPSI, and if you do end up doing it, I’d be happy to answer more questions about how we have done it so far. My goal is to be totally done with Latin grammar by the time DS is 12 or 13, and get ourselves into reading real Latin texts by then. So far we are on track for that, and really enjoying the journey so much more than I ever anticipated.

 

 

This is crazy.  Just kidding, I meant to say, this is crazy helpful!  Thank you so much for typing this all out and in such detail.  I think it's very similar to the steps taken by the guy in the article i linked in the OP, but much more explicit instruction for LLPSI, which is wonderful to have.  When you say chant the forms, do you use a specific CD, or do you just repeat and repeat and repeat?  For our French verbs, we have some we just repeat in monotone, and others I've managed to set to Star Wars tunes.  lol.  

 

I think you have encouraged me to get LLPSI sooner rather than later, but I think I'll also attack a grammar text semi-systematically.  So...

GSWL, then:

alternating Wheelock and LLPSI according to whim.  :-)  Anki for vocab is a must, of course!  I love using LLPSI cyclically.  Such a great idea.  Read for pleasure, read for content, read for vocab, read and analyze, read and copy...  So many things that can be done.  

[8filltheheart]

Don’t be in a rush. This Lone Pine class we are in has been eye-opening in it’s speed in particular. We love the class, but it covers chapters 1-16 in 9 months. That might be doable, but I’m not yet convinced that kids trying to go through LLPSI at that pace don’t end up with a pretty shaky grasp of both the grammar and vocab (particularly considering all the history, culture, and mythology she also requires). At least I think we would, if we were in that situation. By contrast, DS really knows this stuff inside and out because of having had such consistent spaced repetition review through Anki.

One of the biggest differences between young kids and older kids is pace of learning. What can take months to master when they are younger is often mastered quickly when they are older. What a younger student might need 1-2 yrs to master, an older student might master in a few weeks.

 

When it comes to determining whether or not a course is high school credit worthy, content is not the only determiner. Pace of input and output are equally important bc that is one of the key differences in learning. So yes, those kids covering that many chapters in that amt of time are probably mastering the content at a high level. (Think about the pace of college level classes. All material in the class has to be mastered in 5 weeks (summer classes), or 10-16 weeks for trimester/semester classes.)

Edited December 5, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Tranquility7, I wanted to add that I've been trying to develop a "4 part analysis" similar to MCT for French.  Still working out the kinks.  LOL, but I'm excited to hear you apply it to Latin!  It would be great for comparative grammar to have some kind of similar-ish analysis occurring across all languages.  

[Tranquility7]

This is crazy.  Just kidding, I meant to say, this is crazy helpful!  Thank you so much for typing this all out and in such detail.  I think it's very similar to the steps taken by the guy in the article i linked in the OP, but much more explicit instruction for LLPSI, which is wonderful to have. 

 

LOL, glad it helps. I woke up this morning and worried it might have come across as a bossypants "do it this way or fail!" kind of post. Obviously, do it however works best for you and your kids!! I'm just sharing some (ok, a lot!) of the nitty gritty about our experience because I think part of what has made LLPSI such a success in our house has been because how we have ended up doing it, and that ended up being a little different than I anticipated when we began.

 

And btw, I loved that article and think he is mostly spot-on. I say "mostly" mainly because he didn't advocate doing the Exercitia, which we have found extremely helpful. However, I think the reason he didn't need it is because he came to LLPSI already knowing a LOT of Latin, and that was not our situation. Anyway, his is not the first article I have read from someone recounting frustration with trying to learn to read Latin through traditional programs, only to find Orberg to be a breath of fresh air and the key to finally achieving some true reading fluency. It seems that the people who love Orberg really LOVE Orberg!

 

When you say chant the forms, do you use a specific CD, or do you just repeat and repeat and repeat?  For our French verbs, we have some we just repeat in monotone, and others I've managed to set to Star Wars tunes.  lol. 

HAHA my DS would LOVE Star Wars chants!!!! I will have to look into doing that!

 

For declension endings, we like

. I think the guy who sings it is a cutie, lol, but it might be easier to get the tune if you listen to the real song here.

 

For pronouns we LOVE the Lyrical Latin CD (it might be downloadable somwhere, too). There is a song for relative pronouns (qui, etc.), personal pronouns (is, ea, id, etc.), and two songs for demonstrative pronouns (ille and hic). There are also songs for declensions but we don't find those to be helpful since I like having all five declensions in one song like our YouTube video. There are also songs for verbs but we haven't really bothered with that (we had learned the endings for a few tenses through LFCA early on, so we practice those still, but they aren't introduced in LLPSI until more than halfway through the book. Also, the charts for the verb tenses are relatively small in comparison with, for instance, the pronoun charts. In our experience, the four pronoun songs alone are worth the cost of the CD.

 

There are some other grammar things we want to memorize that I can't find songs for and will probably eventually come up with something on my own. I just made up one last week to This Old Man for memorizing which prepositions take ablative and which take both. But Star Wars would be so much more fun than This Old Man, hahahahaha!

 

I think you have encouraged me to get LLPSI sooner rather than later, but I think I'll also attack a grammar text semi-systematically.  So...

GSWL, then:

alternating Wheelock and LLPSI according to whim.  :-)  Anki for vocab is a must, of course!  I love using LLPSI cyclically.  Such a great idea.  Read for pleasure, read for content, read for vocab, read and analyze, read and copy...  So many things that can be done.  

I think that sounds like a great plan! And the cyclical thing really is fabulous, especially because you can be in different phases of different chapters in the same week. So, for instance, in a single week, we can be reading new stuff in ch 23, rereading well-known vocab and grammar in chapter 4, and redoing Exercitia in chapter 8. And meanwhile reviewing everything efficiently through Anki. Ahhhhhhh! Love it!

[Tranquility7]

By the way, when I say "redoing" Exercitia, even the sentence (free answer) exercitia can have different levels of challenge. Here are some ideas:

Level 1 - Initially, look up the answer in the book. They are comprehension questions, so the answers can be literally quoted straight from the book. This is helpful at the beginning, since it keeps you from making grammatical errors.

 

Level 2 – Later, redo them, but don’t look in the book until after you have written your answer. Then look in the book and correct any grammar or vocab errors.

 

Level 3 – Redo them again, but use some of the new grammar you have learned in later chapters. I do this by making DS a list of grammar concepts we have learned. He has to use at least one of them in each sentence he writes.

Here is an example of a grammar list:

>   All five cases

>   Ablative of means

>   Ablative of agent (passive voice – use carefully!)

>   Ubi / QuÅ / Unde

>   Locative case

>   Vocative case

>   Relative pronouns

>   Personal pronouns

>   Eius vs. suus

>   Interrogative pronouns

>   Tam … quam …

>   Imperative

>   “-ne†question

>   “et … et†and “queâ€

>   In + abl and in + acc

>   NÅn sÅlum… sed etiam…

Etc……..

 

Level 4 – Redo them again, but try to say things in a different way than the book does. Either use synonyms or definitions, or just by adding more details and complexity. DS and I love to try to come up with funny and/or creative answers, and then we work together to figure out how to say it using correct grammar and the vocab that we know.  

 

Level 5 – (we aren’t really to this level yet, but it is a goal) Redo them only orally/conversationally. Up until this level we always write our sentence exercitia out, because we need to check our grammar. But I can already tell the early chapters are pretty doable for us orally. The problem is I’m not an expert, and I don’t want us to get into wrong habits without knowing it… so for now we stick with writing things out mostly.

                                                                                                                                                                                

A couple of examples:

Question: Why is Lydia crying?

Answer: Level 1 – Lydia is crying because she doesn’t have a ring on her finger.

Level 3/4 – She is crying because she is a bad girlfriend who thinks only of herself and her naked finger! (uses personal pronouns, a relative pronoun, adjectives, a reflexive pronoun, etc.)

 

Question: What does Medus put on the table?

Answer: Level 1 – Medus puts his bag on the table.

Level 3/4 – On the table he puts his bag, which is full of money with which he will buy his girlfriend a ring. (uses personal pronouns, possessive adjectives, relative pronouns, future tense, etc.)

 

Just like with reading the chapters, you can be at different levels of sentence Exercitia for different chapters in the same week. So over the course of a few of weeks, you could do these activities:

Easy reading: chap 3-6

Level 1 sentence exercitia: chap 16 (includes reading ch 16)

New reading: chap 23-24

Level 2 sentence exercitia: chap 14 (includes reading ch 14)

Level 4 sentence exercitia: chap 5

 

In addition to sentence exercitia, some grammar concepts lend themselves well to writing a set of sentences. For example, for relative pronouns, we wrote out sentences using every relative pronoun in every gender, number, and case (total of 30 sentences). We also used the grammar checklist, so we had to use a grammar concept in every sentence (and no duplicates until all had been used at least once).

 

A couple of other ideas:

• Periodic MCT-style 4-level analysis (maybe even add diagramming if you are into that… which we are :-)), especially if you are struggling to understand something
• Imitate sentences – find a good sentence in LLPSI that demonstrates a particular grammar concept. Rewrite the sentence with totally different words but the exact same grammatical structure. For an added challenge, require that all the new nouns are the opposite gender of the noun they are imitating (so you have to do pronoun/adj work to make them match in gender/case/number).
• Use the same writing style tips that we use in English, but apply them to Latin. This is especially applicable as we are starting to write paragraphs instead of just sentences. Vary sentence structure, use parallelism, make every word count, use strong verbs and specific nouns, alliteration, simile and metaphor, imagery, personification….

 

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

LOL, glad it helps. I woke up this morning and worried it might have come across as a bossypants "do it this way or fail!" kind of post. Obviously, do it however works best for you and your kids!! I'm just sharing some (ok, a lot!) of the nitty gritty about our experience because I think part of what has made LLPSI such a success in our house has been because how we have ended up doing it, and that ended up being a little different than I anticipated when we began.

 

And btw, I loved that article and think he is mostly spot-on. I say "mostly" mainly because he didn't advocate doing the Exercitia, which we have found extremely helpful. However, I think the reason he didn't need it is because he came to LLPSI already knowing a LOT of Latin, and that was not our situation. Anyway, his is not the first article I have read from someone recounting frustration with trying to learn to read Latin through traditional programs, only to find Orberg to be a breath of fresh air and the key to finally achieving some true reading fluency. It seems that the people who love Orberg really LOVE Orberg!

 

HAHA my DS would LOVE Star Wars chants!!!! I will have to look into doing that!

 

For declension endings, we like this song on YouTube. I think the guy who sings it is a cutie, lol, but it might be easier to get the tune if you listen to the real song here.

 

For pronouns we LOVE the Lyrical Latin CD (it might be downloadable somwhere, too). There is a song for relative pronouns (qui, etc.), personal pronouns (is, ea, id, etc.), and two songs for demonstrative pronouns (ille and hic). There are also songs for declensions but we don't find those to be helpful since I like having all five declensions in one song like our YouTube video. There are also songs for verbs but we haven't really bothered with that (we had learned the endings for a few tenses through LFCA early on, so we practice those still, but they aren't introduced in LLPSI until more than halfway through the book. Also, the charts for the verb tenses are relatively small in comparison with, for instance, the pronoun charts. In our experience, the four pronoun songs alone are worth the cost of the CD.

 

There are some other grammar things we want to memorize that I can't find songs for and will probably eventually come up with something on my own. I just made up one last week to This Old Man for memorizing which prepositions take ablative and which take both. But Star Wars would be so much more fun than This Old Man, hahahahaha!

 

I think that sounds like a great plan! And the cyclical thing really is fabulous, especially because you can be in different phases of different chapters in the same week. So, for instance, in a single week, we can be reading new stuff in ch 23, rereading well-known vocab and grammar in chapter 4, and redoing Exercitia in chapter 8. And meanwhile reviewing everything efficiently through Anki. Ahhhhhhh! Love it!

 

 

In my googling, I've discovered a number of forums for Latin learners, and it's interesting, there is a lot of controversy over LLPSI purists vs LLPSI + another standard text.  There really is no debate as to whether or not LLPSI is awesome, only whether or not it can stand alone.  

 

Thanks for the song recommendations.  Knowing nothing about Latin, I don't know how it would work, but for French verb endings (only six per tense per verb type), it's pretty easy to set them to any tune, but the imperial march (Darth Vadar's Song) lends itself particularly well to chanting verb endings...  :-)  I should make a youtube video to benefit the general public.  LOL

 

Thanks again for all these tips.  

[Tranquility7]

Tranquility7, I wanted to add that I've been trying to develop a "4 part analysis" similar to MCT for French.  Still working out the kinks.  LOL, but I'm excited to hear you apply it to Latin!  It would be great for comparative grammar to have some kind of similar-ish analysis occurring across all languages.  

 

YES! We love the MCT-style analysis, and use it periodically in our Chinese studies, too. It is so interesting to see how different languages handle grammar, and doing 4-pt analysis helps reveal that. The method does need tweaking for different languages, but that is part of why it is so helpful!

 

Ok, I really must get to work now - my to do list is a mile long and I'm just having fun thinking about Latin instead, LOL!! Hope I haven't overwhelmed you with my LLPSI opinions and ideas. Let me know if you have more questions or thoughts about it, but my replies might be spotty because of my crazy week ahead :-)

Edited December 5, 2016 by tranquility7

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

 

By the way, when I say "redoing" Exercitia, even the sentence (free answer) exercitia can have different levels of challenge. Here are some ideas:

Level 1 - Initially, look up the answer in the book. They are comprehension questions, so the answers can be literally quoted straight from the book. This is helpful at the beginning, since it keeps you from making grammatical errors.

 

Level 2 – Later, redo them, but don’t look in the book until after you have written your answer. Then look in the book and correct any grammar or vocab errors.

 

Level 3 – Redo them again, but use some of the new grammar you have learned in later chapters. I do this by making DS a list of grammar concepts we have learned. He has to use at least one of them in each sentence he writes.

Here is an example of a grammar list:

>   All five cases

>   Ablative of means

>   Ablative of agent (passive voice – use carefully!)

>   Ubi / QuÅ / Unde

>   Locative case

>   Vocative case

>   Relative pronouns

>   Personal pronouns

>   Eius vs. suus

>   Interrogative pronouns

>   Tam … quam …

>   Imperative

>   “-ne†question

>   “et … et†and “queâ€

>   In + abl and in + acc

>   NÅn sÅlum… sed etiam…

Etc……..

 

Level 4 – Redo them again, but try to say things in a different way than the book does. Either use synonyms or definitions, or just by adding more details and complexity. DS and I love to try to come up with funny and/or creative answers, and then we work together to figure out how to say it using correct grammar and the vocab that we know.  

 

Level 5 – (we aren’t really to this level yet, but it is a goal) Redo them only orally/conversationally. Up until this level we always write our sentence exercitia out, because we need to check our grammar. But I can already tell the early chapters are pretty doable for us orally. The problem is I’m not an expert, and I don’t want us to get into wrong habits without knowing it… so for now we stick with writing things out mostly.

                                                                                                                                                                                

A couple of examples:

Question: Why is Lydia crying?

Answer: Level 1 – Lydia is crying because she doesn’t have a ring on her finger.

Level 3/4 – She is crying because she is a bad girlfriend who thinks only of herself and her naked finger! (uses personal pronouns, a relative pronoun, adjectives, a reflexive pronoun, etc.)

 

Question: What does Medus put on the table?

Answer: Level 1 – Medus puts his bag on the table.

Level 3/4 – On the table he puts his bag, which is full of money with which he will buy his girlfriend a ring. (uses personal pronouns, possessive adjectives, relative pronouns, future tense, etc.)

 

Just like with reading the chapters, you can be at different levels of sentence Exercitia for different chapters in the same week. So over the course of a few of weeks, you could do these activities:

Easy reading: chap 3-6

Level 1 sentence exercitia: chap 16 (includes reading ch 16)

New reading: chap 23-24

Level 2 sentence exercitia: chap 14 (includes reading ch 14)

Level 4 sentence exercitia: chap 5

 

In addition to sentence exercitia, some grammar concepts lend themselves well to writing a set of sentences. For example, for relative pronouns, we wrote out sentences using every relative pronoun in every gender, number, and case (total of 30 sentences). We also used the grammar checklist, so we had to use a grammar concept in every sentence (and no duplicates until all had been used at least once).

 

A couple of other ideas:

• Periodic MCT-style 4-level analysis (maybe even add diagramming if you are into that… which we are :-)), especially if you are struggling to understand something
• Imitate sentences – find a good sentence in LLPSI that demonstrates a particular grammar concept. Rewrite the sentence with totally different words but the exact same grammatical structure. For an added challenge, require that all the new nouns are the opposite gender of the noun they are imitating (so you have to do pronoun/adj work to make them match in gender/case/number).
• Use the same writing style tips that we use in English, but apply them to Latin. This is especially applicable as we are starting to write paragraphs instead of just sentences. Vary sentence structure, use parallelism, make every word count, use strong verbs and specific nouns, alliteration, simile and metaphor, imagery, personification….

 

 

You're probably already aware of Moutoux's website, but if not, check it out.  He does a ton of Latin diagramming.  

 

Your exercise ideas are wonderful.  

[Tranquility7]

You're probably already aware of Moutoux's website, but if not, check it out.  He does a ton of Latin diagramming.  

 

Your exercise ideas are wonderful.  

 

Ooh, thanks for the link. I'd not heard of him before, and we have mostly just made up our own method for diagramming in Latin following English conventions we'd already learned. It will be helpful to see the diagrams of someone who knows what he is doing!

[Tranquility7]

One of the biggest differences between young kids and older kids is pace of learning. What can take months to master when they are younger is often mastered quickly when they are older. What a younger student might need 1-2 yrs to master, an older student might master in a few weeks.

 

When it comes to determining whether or not a course is high school credit worthy, content is not the only determiner. Pace of input and output are equally important bc that is one of the key differences in learning. So yes, those kids covering that many chapters in that amt of time are probably mastering the content at a high level. (Think about the pace of college level classes. All material in the class has to be mastered in 5 weeks (summer classes), or 10-16 weeks for trimester/semester classes.)

 

I understand what you are saying. And I do agree that older kids can often learn faster. But my observation and experience is that learning at a faster pace is not necessarily mastering, and very often is merely cramming things into short term memory to pass exams. Not always, but often. I went to well-regarded universities for my undergrad and master's degrees (not ivy, but just below that) and if I had it to do over again, I would not care about graduating in four years, and I'd take a lighter load each semester, so I could spend more time learning things in a better and deeper way for long-term retention. I wasted way too much time and money speeding through classes, and I think that is extremely common.

 

One of the things I love about homeschooling is the difference in priority between timeframe and level of mastery. In a traditional school environment where the amount of time is held consistent (9 mos or whatever), whatever level the student achieves in that amount of time is his level of mastery (reflected in his grade). In contrast, in a homeschool environment, the student can be held to the requirement of a certain level of mastery, and the amount of time can vary as needed in order to achieve that level of mastery (whether it is 3 mos or 15 mos). What difference does it make how fast or slow the material is learned, as long as it is learned well?

[SeaConquest]

1. We actually enrolled in Lone Pine Latin 100 this year (it uses LLPSI and covers chaps 1-16 in the 100 level); DS already knows all of the vocab and grammar they will cover for the year (though he is technically too young for the class), but it has turned out great anyway, simply because the teacher includes a ton of Roman history, culture, and mythology that has been a good challenge for him. The main reason we enrolled him in it, though, was simply to reinvigorate our own Latin studies. I thought DS needed to see other motivated and enthusiastic kids enjoying Latin, as well as have a Latin expert respond to some of the writing we were doing as part of his Exercitia (the free-answer questions are not answered in the Answer Key). We are both really pleased with how it is going.

 

I agree that your whole post was crazy helpful!

 

At what age did you DS enroll in Lone Pine? My DS also started with Latin young (2 years of SSL1 and SSL2/Minimus in K and 1st, and now GSWL and Minimus Secundus in 2nd), and I have been struggling with what to use next, given his age. I don't think I've read about anyone using LLPSI with such a young student, so I appreciate you sharing all of this.

[8filltheheart]

One of the things I love about homeschooling is the difference in priority between timeframe....

In contrast, in a homeschool environment, the student can be held to the requirement of a certain level of mastery, and the amount of time can vary as needed in order to achieve that level of mastery (whether it is 3 mos or 15 mos). What difference does it make how fast or slow the material is learned, as long as it is learned well?

It doesn't, but you made the comment that " I’m not yet convinced that kids trying to go through LLPSI at that pace don’t end up with a pretty shaky grasp of both the grammar and vocab (particularly considering all the history, culture, and mythology she also requires)."

 

My point is that I can see that they can master the material at that pace bc my own kids do. Does that mean it is the best, better, or a good route? None of the above bc it isn't a value statement, just a statement. It is the typical pace that languages are taught.

[TracyP]

Tranquility, thanks for those lengthy posts on using LLPSI. We are having a great year using LLPSI alongside Visual Latin. Your older posts on how you use it helped convince me to give it a try, and these are also very helpful.

 

I agree that your whole post was crazy helpful!

 

At what age did you DS enroll in Lone Pine? My DS also started with Latin young (2 years of SSL1 and SSL2/Minimus in K and 1st, and now GSWL and Minimus Secundus in 2nd), and I have been struggling with what to use next, given his age. I don't think I've read about anyone using LLPSI with such a young student, so I appreciate you sharing all of this.

 

I had several emails back and forth with the Lone Pine teacher when my dd was considering it at 11yo. Her big requirement is that the child be working at high school level. Beyond that she strongly encouraged them to be at least 12. She expressed that she had seen too many younger kids do okay during the first year, but not be able to move forward at the same pace (exactly what tranquility7 was musing) as the older kids. By year 2 or 3, they end up not being able to learn at a high school pace or struggle with the abstract thinking required by some of her writing assignments.

 

Now, otoh, she also said that a couple of her best students had started very young, so she was definitely open to younger kids. You just might have to twist her arm a little if your child is under 12. I imagine the further under 12, the harder you might have to twist. ;)
 

[Bluegoat]

For an adult, I would just work through Wheelock.  So long as you like the teaching style.  It's what I used at university, and I liked it - lots of grammar but also practice translating right from the beginning. 

 

I find that a good combination for me, as I need both together as much as possible to remember the grammar aspect.

 

That being said, I have a few friends who found they needed to go the Latin intensive route, where they went and translated a lot of material, in some ways rather roughly. I have wondered if that might have been better for me, if I could afford it. Those seem to be taught with an instructor, a grammar, and lots of Latin texts, so maybe not so good at home.  But I think it is a real learning style for some, and they learn the formal grammar directly through the translation work - studying it directly is not effective for them.

 

FWIW, as first year university students we covered the first Wheelock book in the first year. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

For an adult, I would just work through Wheelock.  So long as you like the teaching style.  It's what I used at university, and I liked it - lots of grammar but also practice translating right from the beginning. 

 

I find that a good combination for me, as I need both together as much as possible to remember the grammar aspect.

 

That being said, I have a few friends who found they needed to go the Latin intensive route, where they went and translated a lot of material, in some ways rather roughly. I have wondered if that might have been better for me, if I could afford it. Those seem to be taught with an instructor, a grammar, and lots of Latin texts, so maybe not so good at home.  But I think it is a real learning style for some, and they learn the formal grammar directly through the translation work - studying it directly is not effective for them.

 

FWIW, as first year university students we covered the first Wheelock book in the first year. 

Thank you for the info!  I think I would probably be a good fit for an intensive class, mostly because I'm ridiculously competitive and so do well in group learning environments.  LOL.  

 

I went with GSWL first because I can get it on kindle.  The other books I will order and have delivered to my mom in the US to pick up when we go visit in Jan.  :-)

[Porridge]

Shout out / fist bump / high five to Tranquility7. This thread has been incredibly helpful.