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$15/hour min. wage?


DawnM
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I think it's a fast track to automation, because automation will become cheaper than human labor in an instant ('m talking to you, Harris Teeter, Panera, and just this week, McDonalds).

Can we discuss this without getting political?  

 

What are your thoughts?  Can it be done?  Would businesses have to hire fewer people?  Is it really necessary to have a min. wage dictated by the Federal Government, or should it be by region, dictated more by COL area?

 

Edited by reefgazer
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The bolded is true.  But tending to the emotional, educational, physical, and social needs of a developing human are still way more complex than making sure someone's burger order gets entered into the system on time.  In fact, the burger person's job is easily automated, but the preschool teacher's job...not so much.

The comparison of burger flippers and preschool workers making the same even though the preschool teacher has a degree is ridiculous.

One, having a degree doesn't necessarily make her worth more. It's preschool, not brain surgery.

Two, the presumption that the burger flipper doesn't also have a degree is a denial of today's reality where it is not unusual for the burger flipper to not only have a degree, it might be a higher or more challenging degree than that teachers.

 

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I think it's a fast track to automation, because automation will become cheaper than human labor in an instant.

But that's just not true. Or not entirely. Automation is expensive at the start bc it requires design of machines and redesign of the facility to use those machines. And it's not like automation doesn't need humans. Even an ice cream machine needs cleaned, repaired, inspected for sanitation. It's like saying cars put horse and buggy people out of work. Maybe so, but it's not like no one works to make cars, maintain cars, clean cars, drive cars....

 

And limited environmental resources will have some effect. There's only so much material to make so many machines with and only so much energy to run them, which will take a not small cost consideration too.

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The bolded is true. But tending to the emotional, educational, physical, and social needs of a developing human are still way more complex than making sure someone's burger order gets entered into the system on time. In fact, the burger person's job is easily automated, but the preschool teacher's job...not so much.

LOLOL as someone who worked in a taco restaurant for 2 years back in the day - give me a preschooler any day compared to dealing with many fast food customers. And two managers too for that matter. And I say hat as someone who usually does not like working with other people's kids.

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Amen.  Every last word of this.

I think your whole post was thought provoking and good.  

 

I think the first sentence is really important to take note of because that's true - an underpaid middle trained job is different than truly discussing MINIMUM wage.

 

 

The second sentence represents a bit of a dichotomy?   I see people UNWILLING to seek out more training/education/get better or certified in their chosen niche BUT I do NOT see that we have difficulty accessing this.

 

Frankly. I am a full time student currently.  I take classes from home at my local community college.  I can get my full AA or AS online and Iowa also has a FULL BAS/BAA online - now, you don't get to necessarily choose your ideal major, but it is a pathway to improvement, kwim?  There are also grants like the Pell grant for those who qualify - and I should think only making minimum wage in a household would qualify.  What is easier than online classes?  I mean, yeah, I have to spend hours studying and put in the WORK, but who said anyone should be handed anything in life, kwim? (And I'm not saying this is what the OP was saying, I'm just clarifying my own thoughts.)

 

I think we have two serious problems in peoples' thinking.

 

1. If I want to move up and make more  I'm entitled to do so.  No, no you aren't.  If your skills, intelligence, or ability only qualify you to work at Wal-Mart, that's sad, but that's the facts.  It is what it is.  There will be some people, because of their limitations, will only make minimum wage and will only be able to afford an apartment and nothing more.  

 

2. If you are not limited profoundly by intelligence and it is just that you don't WANT to work two jobs (like an apprenticeship or go to school online or at night) then why is it that you should expect other people who DID DO THESE THINGS to hand over $$ to you?

 

*Because, it isn't like money appears from thin air.  Every penny the government gives out was  TAKEN  from someone else in order to do so.

 

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We own a small business that has support staff earning from min wage (8.75 in our state) to about 20/hr, but most are around 9-14/hr. We have about 12 support staff members, about 10-11 FTE (full time equivalent) support staff. 

 

When we bought the business 12 years ago, min wage here was 5.15/hr. Every time min wage goes up, we nudge up our pay scale. In general, this means that folks who are earning close to min wage get small raises, and the wage scale tends to compress a little bit. I.e., my 17+/hr people aren't going to be impacted by an increase at the low end of our wage scale, but those who earn at the lower end of the scale are all going to get nudged up. We tend to keep min wage as our "new hire" wage for folks with no experience, and everyone else makes somewhat to a lot more. 

 

We've never had a problem with increasing wages, and we've actually been HAPPY about it, as it allows us to give more generous/reasonable wages in our low-wage industry while still being competitive with other practices since now our competitors also have to pay decent wages. (I feel the same way about requiring health insurance/etc . . . The MANDATES allow us to be more "generous" without crippling us competitively.)

 

Going to 15/hr would be really interesting. Obviously, it'd be pretty disruptive if it went straight from 8.75 to 15 (and we'd likely trim our staff hours by 10-20% if that happened in one moment, just working leaner and outsourcing some inefficient roles/tasks), but that clearly would not be the case.

 

It would surely phase in over at least a couple years, if not 5 years. As long as it's phased in over a couple years or longer, I'd be ALL FOR IT. I'd love to give our staff big raises, and I am confident that the higher wages in the rest of our community would increase our clients' ability to pay. Certainly, our fees (vet hospital) would need to go up a bit. I'd guess 8-10% increase in overall fees to compensate for our wages costs increase (support staff wage cost would likely increase by more like 25-35% overall for us going to 15/hr min, but wages itself is only one part of our larger budget). But, since all of our competitors would have the same increased costs/prices, we would not be competitively disadvantaged, and I'd imagine that our clients would be able to afford it fine. 

 

Certainly, it is true that increasing the minimum wage creates pressure to streamline and have fewer staff doing the same work . . . We've already seen that going from 5.15 to 8.75, and IT IS FINE. It means we focus on having FT professional staff and don't have the time/money to have high school kids, but we don't want them anyway for other reasons.

 

Wouldn't you rather work 40 hrs for 15/hr than 60 at 10/hr (presumably working 2 jobs, so double scheduling/transport hassles, too?)? I think that's a lot of what happens in my industry. You invest in a little more technology as cost savings . . . you streamline procedures to save time . . . you might outsource some routine tasks to companies that can take advantage of automation (say, your reminder calls or printing reminder postcards, etc.) . . . Meanwhile, you have a little less staff hours but pay them much better. Seems like a good thing to me. Frankly, in the last 12 years, we've already transitioned our business in this direction. When we bought it, the prior owner had only 3 FT and lots of PT college kids . . . We now have 8 FT and about 4-6 PT staff. Those FT jobs are great jobs with good benefits, etc. The PT jobs are just there to fill the needed gaps and serve for pre-vet college kids, etc. We use FT'ers as much as possible, period. And our average wages are much higher than when we acquired it. By making the staff more professional and long term (we have 2 staff that have been here 10+ years . . .), it makes the jobs better for the staff, but it also makes the staff performance better. It's a win-win. It's just a different mind set, though. Increasing min wage will just accelerate and emphasize this transition to professionalism in support staff in our field. 

 

Personally, here in a college town in WV (moderate cost of living), where many people really do work for minimum wage or marginally above it (say within a dollar or so, so up to 10/hr), I think we could easily go up $1 - 1.50/yr for the next 3-5 years without a major disruption in most businesses, especially if it is a NATIONAL minimum wage rise.

 

(Our particular business is very local, but what about a print shop that competes nationally? That makes it hard to be a 15/hr employer and compete with a 8/hr one in another state! Same goes for local businesses like ours -- restaurant/vet/etc -- that is located near a state border . . .) 

 

So, here's one small business owner who is all for raising the minimum wage!! Let's DO IT!
 

 

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Technology prices fall fast; labor costs always increase.  Cell phones of iPhone quality were unaffordable to most not that long ago.

But that's just not true. Or not entirely. Automation is expensive at the start bc it requires design of machines and redesign of the facility to use those machines. And it's not like automation doesn't need humans. Even an ice cream machine needs cleaned, repaired, inspected for sanitation. It's like saying cars put horse and buggy people out of work. Maybe so, but it's not like no one works to make cars, maintain cars, clean cars, drive cars....

And limited environmental resources will have some effect. There's only so much material to make so many machines with and only so much energy to run them, which will take a not small cost consideration too.

 

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sea-tac was one of the first communities in the country to do a $15 minimum wage. six months later, regular joe average workers were saying it was a mistake.  yes, they hire fewer workers.  yes the workers they do have, have fewer hours.  mcD's (remember, the majority are franchises - which are individually owned and operated, including costs.) is already putting kiosks because they don't need as many workers.

one of the more liberal companies (dicks) in seattle - that offered tons of benefits for their workers, with school etc, - said they'd have to cut all those benefits or else they'd be laying people off.

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The comparison of burger flippers and preschool workers making the same even though the preschool teacher has a degree is ridiculous.

 

One, having a degree doesn't necessarily make her worth more. It's preschool, not brain surgery.

 

Two, the presumption that the burger flipper doesn't also have a degree is a denial of today's reality where it is not unusual for the burger flipper to not only have a degree, it might be a higher or more challenging degree than that teachers.

 

I don't think it is ridiculous at all.  I personally don't know any burger flippers with degrees.  I assume some exist, but in our experience with homeschool teens working at fast food restaurants, I haven't seen any or heard of any.  My son works at a grocery store, as a checker.   He is 16.  Most of the folks, who aren't managers, are also high school or local community college students.

 

Caring for your child should be worth something.  Having the requirement of a BA for the job, should indicate the person has more training and would be worth something.  

 

The reality is, we don't put much value on childcare or child education.   A basketball player or actor doesn't do brain surgery either, but they sure make boatloads of money.   Our money goes where our values lie.

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There are challenges to both jobs. The pre-school teacher and the person at the fast food restaurant. And yes, it's very possible both have degrees. I had a degree while I worked at McDonald's and no, I didn't appreciate feeling like people might think I was uneducated just because I was on the other side of the counter.

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I think it's a fast track to automation, because automation will become cheaper than human labor in an instant ('m talking to you, Harris Teeter, Panera, and just this week, McDonalds).

Wendy's, Carl's Jr. and Hardee's are automating as well.

 

"Wendy's President Todd Penegor told Investor's Business Daily (IBD) about plans to automate the ordering process in company restaurants. Employees who once took orders from customers will be replaced by self-service kiosks. Mobile ordering and payment apps will also cut down on employee hours.

 

According to IBD, Penegor says the move is a response to the rising cost of labor for the company. He says it's partly a result of rising minimum wages, but also a consequence of more competition between companies for a smaller pool of workers." http://www.businessinsider.com/wendys-workers-will-lose-jobs-to-robots-2016-5

 

"But for more rote tasks like grilling a burger or taking an order, technology may be even more precise than human employees.

 

"They're always polite, they always upsell, they never take a vacation, they never show up late, there's never a slip-and-fall, or an age, sex, or race discrimination case," says Puzder of swapping employees for machines.

...

But Puzder says that a restaurant that's 100% automated would have one big plus for millennials: no social interaction.

 

"Millennials like not seeing people," he says. "I've been inside restaurants where we've installed ordering kiosks ... and I've actually seen young people waiting in line to use the kiosk where there's a person standing behind the counter, waiting on nobody."" http://www.businessinsider.com/carls-jr-wants-open-automated-location-2016-3

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sea-tac was one of the first communities in the country to do a $15 minimum wage. six months later, regular joe average workers were saying it was a mistake.  yes, they hire fewer workers.  yes the workers they do have, have fewer hours.  mcD's (remember, the majority are franchises - which are individually owned and operated, including costs.) is already putting kiosks because they don't need as many workers.

one of the more liberal companies (dicks) in seattle - that offered tons of benefits for their workers, with school etc, - said they'd have to cut all those benefits or else they'd be laying people off.

 

 

I remember midnight Dick's runs!   (I went to college in Seattle).  

 

Now that you mention it, I did hear on the news that companies were saying they would have to cut benefits.  That stinks.

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I don't think it is ridiculous at all.  I personally don't know any burger flippers with degrees.  I assume some exist, but in our experience with homeschool teens working at fast food restaurants, I haven't seen any or heard of any.  My son works at a grocery store, as a checker.   He is 16.  Most of the folks, who aren't managers, are also high school or local community college students.

 

Caring for your child should be worth something.  Having the requirement of a BA for the job, should indicate the person has more training and would be worth something.  

 

The reality is, we don't put much value on childcare or child education.   A basketball player or actor doesn't do brain surgery either, but they sure make boatloads of money.   Our money goes where our values lie.

 

Well, you need to get out more. Weird Al was overqualified and couldn't get a job working in fast food. Those educated people that apply or work at fast food places exist. I had my AA and Bachelor's at the end of my time at McD's.

 

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I really wonder if the 15 minimum wage will be helpful to poor, working families because the boost in salaries will mean they no longer qualify for subsidized child care, free school lunch, food stamps, Earned Income Credit, etc. At $10 hour a full time worker will earn 20,800 dollars; at $15 an hour a full time earner will earn 31,200 dollars a year. The federal poverty level for 2016 is 24,300. So two full time workers in the family who both make minimum wage will go from making $41,600 to $62,400 per year in California. That is going to make a lot of families ineligible for many programs.

I looked up the chart for free and reduced lunch eligibility. A family with four kids will go from being eligible for free lunches to not being eligible at all- not even for reduced priced meals. A single parent with one child will go from being eligible for free lunches to not being eligible. Breakfast is 1.75 and lunch is 2.75 in our local school district. So that family with 4 kids will end up paying ($4.50 a day per kid X 4 kids X 180 school days) $3,240 dollars per school year. That family with 4 kids will no longer be eligible for free state/head start preschool. They are going to have to pay more to attend a private preschool because the preschool teachers and other employees are all going to make at least 15 an hour.

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I'm not in a position where I hire people or manage a payroll (never have been; likely never will be).

 

My brother manages a plant in a small town. The average pay for the plant workers is $8.50. He is convinced that anything higher would kill the company. It is part of the automotive supply chain, and margins aren't huge, so perhaps he is right. I'm not really sure.

 

He does live in an area with one of the highest poverty rates in the state (40% of people live in poverty), and while it's not wonderful, people can and do live on $8.50 an hour, especially in a household with multiple earners. He never has trouble finding people willing to work for the $8.50, and they are not the people that tend to staff the most dangerous/undesireable jobs. In our area, those jobs go to mostly English learner immigrants and refugees (things like chicken plants and migrant farm work). He is able to hire high school graduates from the local schools. He *is* usually frustrated by their lack of critical thinking skills and their lack of motivation/drive/what-have-you. It is a constant argument between him and me that he sees this as unrelated to the $8.50 wage, and i think that it explains it very well. I don't see "barely making it" as motivating for anything but continuing to barely make it. He sees it the opposite. Which convinces me that world view plays heavily into this discussion.

He can't really complain about low quality workers when they pay low wages. You get what you pay for applies to wages too. The places that I know that get good employees for low wages tend to have well advertised advancement opportunities for people who do well. But if all someone can look forwards to is more of the same, even a potentially good employee can become a mediocre or poorly performing one.

 

I get the arguments made by companies like your brother's but would also point out that most adults, especially those with any dependents, making $8.50/hr, are either receiving or are eligible to receive government assistance. I remain unconvinced that it should the the government's job to subsidize employers who pay low wages.

 

I'm not a big proponent or opponent of raising the minimum wage. I think there are larger issues at play.

Edited by LucyStoner
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The comparison of burger flippers and preschool workers making the same even though the preschool teacher has a degree is ridiculous.

 

One, having a degree doesn't necessarily make her worth more. It's preschool, not brain surgery.

 

Two, the presumption that the burger flipper doesn't also have a degree is a denial of today's reality where it is not unusual for the burger flipper to not only have a degree, it might be a higher or more challenging degree than that teachers.

I think the difference is that the preschool teacher/worker is required to have specific certifications or levels of education as a condition of employment. Flipping burgers has no such conditions; anyone can flip burgers. Whether or not a burger flipper has a college degree is a reflection on the greater economy and not the job or the worth or intelligence of the employee.

Edited by Scoutermom
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Well, you need to get out more. Weird Al was overqualified and couldn't get a job working in fast food. Those educated people that apply or work at fast food places exist. I had my AA and Bachelor's at the end of my time at McD's.

 

 

 

Editing to say: .   I am sorry I offended you, 

Edited by DawnM
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For those who question whether automation will actually take over a lot of the minimum wage jobs, I offer self-serve gasoline as a cautionary tale.

 

I am old enough to remember service stations.  The workers would pump your gas, thoroughly clean and dry your windshields, check your oil, and assess the appearance of your tires while you sat calmly in the car.  Then they would bring you your bill.

 

My husband, who is 10 years older than I am, worked in one of those as his stepping stone job between his years of shovelling snow and doing paper routes and his eventual post-high school apprenticeship to get journeyman papers.  In that job, in his sparer time, he learned to do mechanical work on cars, and he got good deals on used cars and on service for them, which helped propel his economic progress considerably since he lived at home with his parents so car expenses were his main expense.

 

This kind of transitional job is increasingly unavailable.  Currently many minimum wage jobs are in the process of being replaced by machines locally as Arcadia has described (she and I live in the same general area).  Additionally, as has been well-documented in 'Nickeled and Dimed', there is no longer a career path upward from or even much ancillary learning available in many minimum wage jobs.  And lastly, the ACA has clearly been demonstrated to have led to reduction in hours so that employers can avoid offering health care to some of their workers.  This last issue has become such a problem locally that voters passed a proposition requiring employers to offer extra hours to their qualified employees rather than doing more outside hiring if they have them available.  Enforcement strikes me as almost impossible, and given the binary nature of the HUGE raise that health care benefits amounts to, as well as the likelihood that it will only serve to consolidate more jobs in large employers rather than the more productive small businesses I voted against this blunt object approach, but I'm very sympathetic to the problem.  

 

Shop local, folks, from actual people.  Tip your servers generously as a practice.  Be consciously dedicated to treated cashiers very kindly, knowing that they take a lot of garbage from people.  Buy from small businesses.  Donate to charity.  Work toward some level of self-sufficiency.  Start a small business.  These actions reduce or at least mitigate the stranglehold that mega-corporations are coiling around us.  But in the broader picture, watch legislation that benefits them, and act on it.

Edited by Carol in Cal.
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Well, you need to get out more. Weird Al was overqualified and couldn't get a job working in fast food. Those educated people that apply or work at fast food places exist. I had my AA and Bachelor's at the end of my time at McD's.

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a teen working fast food. Teens have a really hard time finding jobs. So do college students. IIRC ages 16-26 are the most highly unemployed of active job seekers. Why would any of those places hire someone that needs scheduling considerations when they literally have hundreds of applicants desperate for any work who will take any shift they can possible get so they can put food on their table?

 

I know lots of people with college degrees working various types of minimum wage jobs. And let me also say, that is not exactly encouraging people to think it's worth the huge debt and stress to get educated either. But then they worry about how much worse they might be without it.

 

And yes trades are awesome too. And not necessarily cheaper than a college degree either. Getting a trade and trying to make it profitable can be very very expensive. (Not to mention I think all people should be educated regardless of respective careers.)

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Can we discuss this without getting political?  

 

What are your thoughts?  Can it be done?  Would businesses have to hire fewer people?  Is it really necessary to have a min. wage dictated by the Federal Government, or should it be by region, dictated more by COL area?

Is it necessary?  Switzerland does not have a federal minimum wage (but a very high standard of living)

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Every time the minimum wage is increased there are the same arguments. 

 

As far as automation and robots, that was always going to happen. It's called progress. And contrary to what seems like common sense, automation not only increases production but actually improves productivity and doesn't cost jobs. 

 

https://hbr.org/2015/06/robots-seem-to-be-improving-productivity-not-costing-jobs

 

The minimum wage was meant to be a living wage, not an entry level wage. We've had this discussion here over and over and over. The fact that the minimum wage was meant to be a living wage has not changed.

 

https://thebillfold.com/it-was-always-supposed-to-be-a-living-wage-a6d4cf3c7ab1#.sulyerpyh

 

 

Some minimum wage increase mythbusting from the Department of Labor

 

https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

 

Raising the minimum wage doesn't always cost jobs nor does it always increase them as some say. Raising it doesn't happen in a vacuum and what happens is usually tied to the current state of the economy. The senator in this article claims that increases always result in job growth. While Polifact rated his claim as mostly false the data shows that a minimum wage increase has relatively little effect on either job growth or loss. What is does however, is allow those in minimum wage jobs to have more purchasing power. And to, you know, buy food and pay rent and stuff..

 

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/nov/06/ben-cardin/does-raising-minimum-wage-result-job-growth/

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I can tell you another difference. The preschool teacher is likely buying books and materials out of her own pocket and paying for recertification classes. With the possible exception of a uniform shirt for a fast food job, usually you don't have those ongoing expenses.

 

No, teaching preschool isn't brain surgery. Not being a brain surgeon, I can't say which is harder. I can say that I find teaching preschool (which I love, BTW) more difficult than teaching pre-service early childhood teachers at the university level. And at the university level, I'm paid a lot more. And my students buy their own supplies.

 

FWIW, I would probably now have a hard time getting hired to teach ECED-I'm overqualified, even for most center director positions (and given that a center director is more business than teaching, I wouldn't want it anyway).

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I think it is important to be careful though with the goal of getting people out of low level jobs.  It may not be realistic to think that jobs like that are ever going to be made up primarily by workers who will go on to better things.   

 

This. 

 

 

I see people UNWILLING to seek out more training/education/get better or certified in their chosen niche BUT I do NOT see that we have difficulty accessing this.

 

Frankly. I am a full time student currently.  I take classes from home at my local community college.  I can get my full AA or AS online and Iowa also has a FULL BAS/BAA online - now, you don't get to necessarily choose your ideal major, but it is a pathway to improvement, kwim?  There are also grants like the Pell grant for those who qualify - and I should think only making minimum wage in a household would qualify.  What is easier than online classes?  I mean, yeah, I have to spend hours studying and put in the WORK, but who said anyone should be handed anything in life, kwim? (And I'm not saying this is what the OP was saying, I'm just clarifying my own thoughts.)

 

 

 There will be some people, because of their limitations, will only make minimum wage and will only be able to afford an apartment and nothing more.  

 

If you are not limited profoundly by intelligence and it is just that you don't WANT to work two jobs (like an apprenticeship or go to school online or at night) then why is it that you should expect other people who DID DO THESE THINGS to hand over $$ to you?

 

*Because, it isn't like money appears from thin air.  Every penny the government gives out was  TAKEN  from someone else in order to do so.

 

<snipped for length>

 

So you live in an area where education, training, and better jobs are there to access? An area where you can get a decent online education, and you can afford to do so? What a great privilege! I am sure you are working hard to take advantage of the many privileges available to you, but please don't make the mistake of thinking that your situation is available to everyone. That is simply not the case in a country as large and varied as the states. 

 

Also, please carefully consider the fact that many of the people whom you view as unwilling to better themselves may in have fact have numerous problems and obstacles that you are absolutely not privy to.  

 

You say that some people will always be limited to affording an apartment and nothing more. Do you not realize that many low-wage, full-time workers have trouble affording the smallest and skankiest of apartments, even with roommates or a spouse? Or do you realize and just think that it's acceptable? Do you think these people should never be able to have a child? 

 

Do you realize that someone having financial struggles within the frame of a middle class world is profoundly different from someone having financial struggles within the frame of a very low income world? Just to give one example, the middle class (used broadly) is a world full of people who own cars, usually more than one per family. If you have two young students who consistently need a ride to community college, it is going to be much easier for the one in the middle class world to solve that problem. They will probably find a ride, and the driver will quite likely decline payment. The student who lives in a very low income world is often not surrounded by families with cars at all, much less more than one. It's going to be much harder to find a ride, and they are more likely to have pay for it, simply because the driver can't afford the extra gas. 

 

No, money does not appear from thin air. Yes, every penny given out by the government was taken from someone else. Are Americans as a people truly unwilling to pay taxes in order to give someone less fortunate a chance, a shot, a life of possibility? I feel extremely happy and privileged that we make enough money for the government to take some of it and help fund social safety nets, along with job and education programs. 

 

One more thought on people who are too 'lazy' to improve themselves: Surely you are familiar with the idea of students with a learning challenge who are often accused of being lazy - who, as a matter of fact, would rather be thought lazy than stupid. I think this often comes into play with adults as well. If you are constantly barraged with people saying that you should be able to get a better job, that you should be able to complete a training program, then you might prefer being thought of as lazy rather than stupid. 

 

I definitely see a problem with accessing training. When people are juggling multiple jobs at low wages they often don't have a predictable schedule to get more training. Often they've been at it a few years before they realize there's no way they'll ever have the predictability they need. That is soul crushing. That is when they get to the "no way out" mentality. 

 

Some jobs offer a little access to a little training within the organization (like mine). If you have a crap boss (there are quite a few) who don't want anyone moving up, they'd rather have someone leave than become an equal then you may never learn how these training opportunities work or how a nonbenefits employee can access them. 

 

There will always be people with entitled attitudes. There always have been. The fact that those people exist does not mean access to a path is not a huge problem. If there is no clear access then a whole class of employees have no incentive to work at a high quality level. 

 

So many good points in this post. 

 

Starbucks have a college plan that is advertised in many libraries and even supermarkets bulletin boards.

 

 

Starbucks does indeed have a great college plan. They are to be commended. However, do keep in mind that, once again, access differs. In my area, it can be pretty hard to get a job at Starbucks! People are very willing to work there, adults included, but it's competitive, definitely far more applications than jobs available. 

 

Also, while some cities seem to have a Starbucks on every corner, it really is true that quite a few places have NONE. The route I take pretty often through Mississippi has nowhere for me to zip off the interstate and buy a Starbucks, so that's numerous cities and towns who lack access to that great program. 

 

 

I also don't agree with the "I worked myself into an early grave for this and so can everyone else" theory.

 

We don't say that for anything else.

 

I have 11 kids and I don't walk around saying, "hey I have had 11 kids even with hypermesis and dh traveling meaning I have had to mostly solo parent and we are low income AND we home school, so what's your excuse for not doing ____?"

 

Because that's nuts. They aren't me. And likewise I'd be very dejected and miserable if I compared myself to others that way too. Because I'm not them.

 

And life happens every single day no matter how smart or determined someone is. Cars breaks down, people get sick, relationships are damaged, and so much more. It's not even awful horrible tragic life happens stuff, the mundane life stuff is called the daily grind for a reason. If wanting society to at least not add more pressure to the grinding or make it slightly less abrassive makes people entitled, then I'm okay with them being entitled.

 

Absolutely, all of this. 

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Haven't read the rest of the thread yet.

 

I'm personally highly opposed to higher minimum wage, it's a quick path to unemployment in a lot of those jobs where half as many people are hired at the higher wage, as opposed to employers being able to pay for twice as many able bodies at half the wage. Oh, and robots. You want to keep encouraging innovation in robotics for service industry and even construction work? Higher and higher minimum wage floors for basic unskilled jobs is the way to do it.

 

Nope.

Edited by Arctic Mama
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I need to get out more?  No, I get out plenty.   I am sorry I offended you, but that is not an excuse to be rude.

 

I had actually come back to apologize or edit my post before I saw this. I am sorry. I was rude and defensive. I was just grumpy because I had flashbacks of cashiering where I felt ashamed or embarrassed about what others thought. And that happened again just this year. I am sorry.

 

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I can tell you another difference. The preschool teacher is likely buying books and materials out of her own pocket and paying for recertification classes. With the possible exception of a uniform shirt for a fast food job, usually you don't have those ongoing expenses.

 

No, teaching preschool isn't brain surgery. Not being a brain surgeon, I can't say which is harder. I can say that I find teaching preschool (which I love, BTW) more difficult than teaching pre-service early childhood teachers at the university level. And at the university level, I'm paid a lot more. And my students buy their own supplies.

 

FWIW, I would probably now have a hard time getting hired to teach ECED-I'm overqualified, even for most center director positions (and given that a center director is more business than teaching, I wouldn't want it anyway).

I am not denigrating preschool teachers. I think they work hard. I think people in fast food work hard. I think garbage collectors work hard. If the certificates and so forth are not worth the pay, then they should find other work or unionize or whatever to change that. (Isn't this what we say about college degrees? Don't get one that doesn't pay off?)

 

Same goes for whatever the teachers are buying out of pocket or doing on their own time. Stop doing that. If they want to do it just because they want to, then accept that no job is going to feel compelled to compensate an employee for whatever good deeds they choose to do on their own. And that as long as people see it getting done for free, school districts won't pay for the things it should.

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I can't remember the last time I saw a teen working fast food. Teens have a really hard time finding jobs. So do college students. IIRC ages 16-26 are the most highly unemployed of active job seekers. Why would any of those places hire someone that needs scheduling considerations when they literally have hundreds of applicants desperate for any work who will take any shift they can possible get so they can put food on their table?

 

I know lots of people with college degrees working various types of minimum wage jobs. And let me also say, that is not exactly encouraging people to think it's worth the huge debt and stress to get educated either. But then they worry about how much worse they might be without it.

 

And yes trades are awesome too. And not necessarily cheaper than a college degree either. Getting a trade and trying to make it profitable can be very very expensive. (Not to mention I think all people should be educated regardless of respective careers.)

 

I see a mixture of workers. I just know that the last couple of places I cashiered I felt really awkward because I always feared that people assumed I didn't go to school, including my coworkers. And even now, I don't know if my son's soon-to-be tutor knows I'm college educated. Should it matter? Probably not but it hurts my ego I guess? I'm guilty of having default assumptions about people (subconscious perhaps) in certain jobs. It's icky on either side.

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I can't remember the last time I saw a teen working fast food. Teens have a really hard time finding jobs. So do college students. IIRC ages 16-26 are the most highly unemployed of active job seekers. Why would any of those places hire someone that needs scheduling considerations when they literally have hundreds of applicants desperate for any work who will take any shift they can possible get so they can put food on their table?

 

I know lots of people with college degrees working various types of minimum wage jobs. And let me also say, that is not exactly encouraging people to think it's worth the huge debt and stress to get educated either. But then they worry about how much worse they might be without it.

 

And yes trades are awesome too. And not necessarily cheaper than a college degree either. Getting a trade and trying to make it profitable can be very very expensive. (Not to mention I think all people should be educated regardless of respective careers.)

You're missing that some of this is regional. In our area I'd say 80% of the fast food workers are high schoolers or college, maybe 20% are adults who are middle aged and usually immigrants, oftentimes in management positions. At the grocery store it's usually 50/50, and their minimum pay is a little above minimum wage and benefits kick in after six months as well.

 

The cost of living is much higher here than, say, Tennessee or West Virginia or Oklahoma. Unemployment is lower by and large. And I know no high schoolers seeking employment who haven't found after school jobs - I see children of my friends working around town visibly and easily in the service industry. I'm pretty sure the manager of our local Papa Murphy's is maybe 22?

 

Raising the wage here even higher isn't needed, and raising it to double what some of these states, already strapped for jobs, are currently paying is senseless. San Fran or NYC need higher wages on the whole for almost all jobs than La Follette, and dealing with it federally is inappropriate. I'm a fan of federal labor laws as a base minimum for states to further improve or augment, but that's about it.

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I'm not an economist, but I think an increase in minimum wage will likely be followed by inflation to match. It's a temporary solution. I do think people who work full time should be able to afford to live a decent life. I'm not sure how to make that happen but I don't think raising the minimum wage will help for very long. 

 

I mean, obviously...it's not like we haven't been here before. How many times has the minimum wage been raised since it was instituted and has it ever been able to support a family? I'm not saying we shouldn't raise it, but I think even if we do it's just keeping up with the status quo. I think minimum wage laws are necessary, but not sufficient. 

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I had actually come back to apologize or edit my post before I saw this. I am sorry. I was rude and defensive. I was just grumpy because I had flashbacks of cashiering where I felt ashamed or embarrassed about what others thought. And that happened again just this year. I am sorry.

 

Thank you.  I am sorry too.  I wasn't trying to be demeaning.  It does sound like you left once you got your BA?  I hope you were able to get a better job.

 

I think some of this is dependent on location too. And maybe even on the field of study.  Some fields are in higher demand.

 

One of the things we want our kids to understand is that passion is one thing, but hire ability is another.  If there is a huge glut of whatever you are interested in, maybe try to find something similar but in higher demand to major in.

 

DH and I both happen to have jobs that are in high demand.  He is a specialized tax accountant and I am in education.  I have a few credentials, but my ESL credential is what gets me a job when I need one.   I am thankful.  If I had just my other credentials, I may not be so fortunate.

 

PS:  As a side note, my oldest is going into Game Design.  It is competitive.  I don't know if he will get a job or not.  He also has Asperger's and we are just thrilled he found SOMETHING he likes and is moving forward.  We pray the future brings a job for him, but we aren't telling him to pick something else.  There is no Plan B at this time.  It is what it is.

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It is just an excuse for automation. That was coming anyways regardless of how much people are paid.

 

There is a risk for automation with many jobs, I doubt they will reduce prices even with automation. They don't give me a discount for using self-checkout so I don't use it.

 

I wondered that myself.  It seems this has been discussed and coming for a while now.

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I had actually come back to apologize or edit my post before I saw this. I am sorry. I was rude and defensive. I was just grumpy because I had flashbacks of cashiering where I felt ashamed or embarrassed about what others thought. And that happened again just this year. I am sorry.

 

BTDT

I left after graduating with my BA.  Not immediately, but before I even had a backup job or a plan.  I couldn't take it anymore.  Really at that point I just was no longer willing to do it.  People are jerks.  You are treated like garbage. 

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As an aside, It isn't necessarily true that businesses need to make a profit - it's quite possible to pay everyone without making anything beyond that, and before the modern period that was seen as most proper - profit was seen as morally questionable.  The assumption that profit is necessary for business to work becomes as a justification for underpaying labour, exploiting people,  and environmental destruction.  It might be worth rethinking that idea and how well it serves us.

 

I'm curious about this. Do you believe making a profit is immoral? 

 

If so, do you think it is immoral for anyone to make more than just covering their basic living expenses? Because I don't. I want to make a profit in my life so I can save for emergencies, replacement vehicle, retirement, helping my kids with college, helping others as I can. I know I can't take it with me, but I would like to have enough not to be a burden on my children. 

 

And businesses, quite frankly, are the same. They have to have extra money to cover those times when business isn't good. Because the utilities still expect expect to be paid, the government still wants their portion, etc. And businesses need to pay extra hours or workers to cover the time their regular employees are sick or on vacation or on family leave. And many businesses need to spend money on R&D - which at first produces nothing. And many businesses spend $$$ trying to adhere to governmental regulations.

 

And employees are a cost. Costs go up, price goes up. Why would I spend my time running a business if I didn't make a profit? I wouldn't.

 

I do not see that the assumption that profit is necessary as a justification for underpaying, exploiting, environmental destruction. For unethical people, maybe, but not for the rest of us. I'm sorry you see it as this.  

 

Just FYI, I was a partial owner in a company. We didn't make a product, we sold our technical services. But, we knew that the true cost of an employee was approximately twice their annual salary. Because of health insurance, disability insurances, 401K matching contribution, sick leave, vacation, paying someone else to keep track of their hours, bill the clients, file all the governmental paperwork, keep track of the money/space/location, cleaning crews, supplies, etc. So the cost of the employee, for us, was not just their hourly rate.  And, yes, we made a profit. We also paid our employees a very fair wage and a bonus at the end of the year. They were happy and content to work for us. Because we made a profit, we stayed in business and kept employing those people and gradually grew the business so we had to hire more and the cycle continued. Because that is how it is supposed to work. 

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I see a mixture of workers. I just know that the last couple of places I cashiered I felt really awkward because I always feared that people assumed I didn't go to school, including my coworkers. And even now, I don't know if my son's soon-to-be tutor knows I'm college educated. Should it matter? Probably not but it hurts my ego I guess? I'm guilty of having default assumptions about people (subconscious perhaps) in certain jobs. It's icky on either side.

 

 

Well yeah. I deal with the public at a rec center in an upscale neighborhood. The people who work there do not live there, but it's not terribly far from more affordable places. Many patrons do tend to make assumptions about staff. One of my defense mechanisms is start giving explanations in terms of physics when certain people question me about progress in swimming. They seem to look at me with more respect because I translate English language into Engineering language for the conversation. It's really dumb, but some people want proof they should respect you and for these particular people showing a depth of science knowledge is a step towards that proof. 

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I saw a protest on the news here this week (Cleveland) to raise the min. wage to $15.  A woman was interviewed and said that she just got a raise to $8.50 an hour, I think. (Min. wage in OH is $8.15.)  She says she's been working just over the minimum wage since the 90s.  HOW is this even possible??  My son, who has not gone to college and just barely finished his requirements for homeschooling high school, got a job at a grocery store for minimum wage when he graduated.  (Less than $8 at the time.)  He now makes $10.60/hr.  Why would he ever be in a position to work for minimum wage again??  Even if all he does is move to another grocery store, he's certainly not going to go back down to minimum wage.  

 

I know that there are many people who have little choice in where they work.  They have way fewer options than my son, who is only a stock boy. I get that.  But at the same time, does just giving people more money without giving them more skills actually help them in the long run?  I'm not sure it does.

 

The other issue is that skills SHOULD be valued and paid more.  My husband works a part-time job at our church as a children's technical director.  It's a large church and the job requires him to have computer, video filming and editing experience AND they liked that he has a master's in religious education which the lady hiring him was hoping for.  He gets paid $14/hour and he's pleased with that.  He was hired for his SKILLS and experience.  So if there were a mandated minimum wage of $15, yes, we'd be thrilled with that extra dollar per hour.  BUT, he will be paid the same as people who have NO marketable skills.  He will make the same as a kid out of high school who does not have to support a family and hasn't even held a single job yet.   Yay for the kid or the adult who will never work his/her way up to anything else! Boo for any incentive or reward for those with degrees, skills, and experience.

 

People will then say that every other business should raise their wages, too, which is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.  Force companies to pay a very high minimum wage and I guess shame other companies into paying more when they already DID have a skills-based pay scale??  What everyone pays lip service to is the fact that many jobs should be respected more and compensated more.  Police officers, for example.  But in reality, people just DON'T actually respect them more. Teachers, too.  So until our society changes, artificially raising wages is going to create a lot of frustration, INequity, and really only make some people feel better about themselves (for supporting this idea) temporarily until the inevitable time when people rage for even more--because they'll see that minimum wage wasn't meant to raise a family no matter WHAT it is--without contributing anything to their own skill set, their communities or their jobs.

 

The final thing that bothers me is the ability to qualify for assistance.  When we were on food stamps, etc. while dh was unable to find FT work, our oldest graduated and went right to work. Because he didn't attend college, his income counted towards our household's income and we no longer qualified.  It felt like a penalty. :(  Of course, our intention wasn't to take 60% of ds' monthly pay to make up for it, but that's how much it would have taken to fill in that gap from the lost food stamps!  There are going to be a LOT of families who realize that raising a family on $15/r and paying taxes on all that grand income isn't easy at ALL.  And they will not qualify for as much or any assistance but I can bet you they will still need it.  So, I feel like this is really a way to 1) get more taxes from the poor, AND 2) take some of the burden off of entitlement programs (sorry, hate that term) and place them on businesses...until they realize that they're going to have to change qualifying incomes to accommodate the new minimum wage poor.  Then we will be right back where we started.  How does this truly help?  I don't begrudge anyone wanting to help those who struggle to make ends meet.  I just think it's so over-idealistic about the way it will actually play out.

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I saw a protest on the news here this week (Cleveland) to raise the min. wage to $15.  A woman was interviewed and said that she just got a raise to $8.50 an hour, I think. (Min. wage in OH is $8.15.)  She says she's been working just over the minimum wage since the 90s.  HOW is this even possible??  My son, who has not gone to college and just barely finished his requirements for homeschooling high school, got a job at a grocery store for minimum wage when he graduated.  (Less than $8 at the time.)  He now makes $10.60/hr.  Why would he ever be in a position to work for minimum wage again??  Even if all he does is move to another grocery store, he's certainly not going to go back down to minimum wage.  

 

What makes you certain another store would automatically pay him more than minimum? Some are pretty rigid in the way they pay.  They don't look at previous salaries and pay based on that. 

 

When I worked at McDs I would get periodic raises.  Raises were based on performance.  5 cents per hour was what you got if you did a very good job and had been there at least 6 months (which in McD land is FOREVER).  You got a quarter if you moved up in the ranks.  I once got 25 cents because I became shift manager.  That involved coming in at 4 am and opening up the store, counting money, and managing those working during a shift.  In terms of responsibilities it was quite a lot for only 25 cents more. 

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I don't think raising the Min wage is feasible without some sort of protection to small businesses such as universal health care (for example) which would reduce the worker's compensation taxes. There are a lot of regulations, senseless bureaucracies, and additional expenses that people don't consider in small business that are a burden. If some of those burdens were lessened then it might be easier for small businesses to bear additional wages.

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Thank you.  I am sorry too.  I wasn't trying to be demeaning.  It does sound like you left once you got your BA?  I hope you were able to get a better job.

 

I think some of this is dependent on location too. And maybe even on the field of study.  Some fields are in higher demand.

 

One of the things we want our kids to understand is that passion is one thing, but hire ability is another.  If there is a huge glut of whatever you are interested in, maybe try to find something similar but in higher demand to major in.

 

DH and I both happen to have jobs that are in high demand.  He is a specialized tax accountant and I am in education.  I have a few credentials, but my ESL credential is what gets me a job when I need one.   I am thankful.  If I had just my other credentials, I may not be so fortunate.

 

I was working on my degrees while I worked at McD's off/on for years (like when I went away to University I'd come work there at holidays and summers but when I went to community college nearby I worked more hours). I was getting close to moving onto a job in a related field to my degree when Hurricane Katrina hit (I'd had two interviews at a casino but the casino disappeared). I had to move in with a sibling out of state til the dust settled (lost my home and car. Was living with parents before the hurricane destroyed it). Passed the CBEST to substitute in CA but they weren't hiring. Then went back to MS and took whatever I could get because I couldn't afford to stay in CA and my sis didn't really have the space for me. Worked in a day care PT til I found a job working retail FT, then got a job in my field (advertising/graphic design) FT. Met dh along the way. Kept that job til dh and I had to move for his practicum and then I was unable to find work in my field (I made ads and had other tasks at a newspaper for four years). Dh's practicum was unpaid and we were running out of savings. So I went back to cashiering til we moved here for dh's job. Because we are in a rural area where most jobs involve a commute (we have one car but that's not the biggest hurdle), have a toddler and limited daycare options (plus hesitant to put her in daycare), I stay home. I tried working in the local campus textbook store but my availability centered around dh's schedule and they didn't need that many workers so it hardly lasted. But I just (as in this past week) started working at a local newspaper on a trial basis. They are working around my availability and if it works out this will be a PT job in my field. It pays less than I made at the last job in my field but I think it will be a step forward, anyway. It gives me the flexibility to homeschool or not, as dh is home with the kids when I am there. Soooo long story short LOL I just had a chip on my shoulder about all the times I had to go back to square one.

Edited by heartlikealion
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I was actually the only one who was going to school when I worked there.  The majority there had to live on their wages.  Of course they didn't live very well on those wages.  Many I suspect were homeless.  They often did not come in clean.  They'd ask to wash their uniform in the wash machine at the store because they had no other options.

 

I felt bad for them.  It's shitty what some people have to live like. 

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Ugh. I totally feel the pinch of letting my son live here and having three other sons in college. It doesn't matter that none of them can afford to live on their own. Their incomes from work and even some of their college financial aid sources are counted as income - that all counts as OUR household income. Meaning dh and I qualify for basically nothing. But bleepin bleep bleep I'm still going to insist they get jobs and go to school. It's flat out dumb--- policies designed to keep poor people poor. Heck I'll go further - it's designed to make poor people even poorer imnsho.

 

So yeah, I'm going to get more than a little ticked when people start saying people must just be dumb or lazy or have a entitlement issues.

 

You know what? Damn straight I think people are entitled to benefit from their employment beyond mere survival. I think people are entitled to any education to which they are willing to put in the time and work to learn. I think people are entitled to whatever health care we can humanely and ethically provide. I think third world people are entitled to it, but I understand it's a lot harder to make happen in those places. But in a supposedly first world country? The only reason we don't have it is bc selfish leaders don't actually care about making it happen. The populace has an obligation to demand they start caring or risk not being accepted leaders anymore. That's just the nature of how the govt/populace social contract works.

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As an aside, It isn't necessarily true that businesses need to make a profit - it's quite possible to pay everyone without making anything beyond that, and before the modern period that was seen as most proper - profit was seen as morally questionable.  The assumption that profit is necessary for business to work becomes as a justification for underpaying labour, exploiting people,  and environmental destruction.  It might be worth rethinking that idea and how well it serves us.

What is your definition of profit? 

 

I cannot see why a person would put their own capital at risk (which is what a business owner is doing) if doing so brought them no return. 

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Around here people are very crowded.

A near homeless family might live in one rented room with a kitchen they share with the occupants of the other 7-10 rooms in the house, ditto the one or two bathrooms.  And this costs so much that they can't save.  Plus there is no place to reliably park their car.  It's hard to even formulate a plan to get moving forward when you're living like that.  About the best you can do is hope that your kids do better, but you can't even show them how, and they are largely on their own.

 

It takes dedication to working together to move up from that, and even then, there has to be social capital/knowledge of what to do to do better.  In theory the occupants could pool their resources and delegate one older/non-English speaking/unemployable person to cook for everyone.  Maybe that person could even do bulk shopping and also some child care.  You do see that approach in some very determined immigrant family groups, but usually I have only seen this work if everyone is related.  

 

Employer housing is not generally customary.

 

I don't know what the solution is.  It's awful.

 

 

 

 

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I don't think it is ridiculous at all.  I personally don't know any burger flippers with degrees.  I assume some exist, but in our experience with homeschool teens working at fast food restaurants, I haven't seen any or heard of any.  My son works at a grocery store, as a checker.   He is 16.  Most of the folks, who aren't managers, are also high school or local community college students.

 

No, you aren't going to see burger flippers with degrees in an area where lots of 16-yr-olds can get jobs. You see it in areas where adults are clamoring for grocery store and fast food jobs, and many teens can't get jobs at all (bc they can fill those positions with adults). 

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Well yeah. I deal with the public at a rec center in an upscale neighborhood. The people who work there do not live there, but it's not terribly far from more affordable places. Many patrons do tend to make assumptions about staff. One of my defense mechanisms is start giving explanations in terms of physics when certain people question me about progress in swimming. They seem to look at me with more respect because I translate English language into Engineering language for the conversation. It's really dumb, but some people want proof they should respect you and for these particular people showing a depth of science knowledge is a step towards that proof.

College =\= education=\= smart=\=hard working=\=deserving of kindness or respect.

 

It's people = deserving of kindness and respect. It's not as though being socially polite in modern USA is overwhelming difficult.

 

People who can't figure that out are jerks.

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I'm curious about this. Do you believe making a profit is immoral? 

 

If so, do you think it is immoral for anyone to make more than just covering their basic living expenses? Because I don't. I want to make a profit in my life so I can save for emergencies, replacement vehicle, retirement, helping my kids with college, helping others as I can. I know I can't take it with me, but I would like to have enough not to be a burden on my children. 

 

And businesses, quite frankly, are the same. They have to have extra money to cover those times when business isn't good. Because the utilities still expect expect to be paid, the government still wants their portion, etc. And businesses need to pay extra hours or workers to cover the time their regular employees are sick or on vacation or on family leave. And many businesses need to spend money on R&D - which at first produces nothing. And many businesses spend $$$ trying to adhere to governmental regulations.

 

And employees are a cost. Costs go up, price goes up. Why would I spend my time running a business if I didn't make a profit? I wouldn't.

 

I do not see that the assumption that profit is necessary as a justification for underpaying, exploiting, environmental destruction. For unethical people, maybe, but not for the rest of us. I'm sorry you see it as this.  

 

Just FYI, I was a partial owner in a company. We didn't make a product, we sold our technical services. But, we knew that the true cost of an employee was approximately twice their annual salary. Because of health insurance, disability insurances, 401K matching contribution, sick leave, vacation, paying someone else to keep track of their hours, bill the clients, file all the governmental paperwork, keep track of the money/space/location, cleaning crews, supplies, etc. So the cost of the employee, for us, was not just their hourly rate.  And, yes, we made a profit. We also paid our employees a very fair wage and a bonus at the end of the year. They were happy and content to work for us. Because we made a profit, we stayed in business and kept employing those people and gradually grew the business so we had to hire more and the cycle continued. Because that is how it is supposed to work. 

 

Maybe it is.  I'm not sure.

 

But you aren't really thinking of it in a way that contextualizes it within an economy where no one would really be making profit, or takes into consideration what a profit is.

 

Not making a profit isn't the same as not having a reserve for slower times or downturns or to allow for increased expenses or buying new tools, etc. Those kinds of funds are part of what is necessary for running the business on a day to day basis.  Accounting for inflation would also fall under that, though in the past when this viewpoint was common, inflation wasn't really a factor.

 

 It also doesn't mean that you don't get paid - salaries including for the owner are part of business expenses.

 

Profit isn't even necessarily what might be plowed back into the business to make it larger or more efficient or somehow better.

 

None of that is profit.  Profit is what is left over apart from the money that needs to be on hand, salaries (including savings and pensions etc), repairs to buildings or tools, education to keep employees working their best, and paying yourself for your work.  It's what is left over after that.

 

The reasoning for seeing it as immoral is this:  If you offer a product or service, what you charge for it legitimately needs to cover all of those expenses.  That is the cost for production and your fair remuneration for your time and effort.  But adding a % of profit to that - well, what is it that the customer is paying for, then?  It isn't the materials or labour of making the product.  It's a sort of phantom amount.

 

That's the reasoning people disapproved of profit - it was seen as greed and even stealing - charging people without providing anything for it. 

 

People ran plenty of businesses under that kind of model, so I doubt that we'd see people suddenly stop doing so.. They would still need to make a living, in any case.

 

And it still requires people be paid fairly. (In fact in many cases there was an expectation that employees who had a trade would be making enough to save to have their own business eventually.)

 

But when we say there is a need for profit - earnings above and beyond what it costs to support all the people and resources involved in the product and service - this sort of extra argument, which some find compelling, starts to pop up.  It's ok to pay low wages if that is all the business can support, so we can make a profit that goes to the owner(s).  Otherwise the business will close and that is bad for everyone.  We can oppose environmental regulation because we need to increase profit, which is what business is about - increased profit means the business is working well. 

 

I don't find those ideas convincing, but many many people seem to.  I think that the reason may be that they don't have a clear idea between the intrinsic cost of something, and making a profit, because as a society we seem to see making more money as a kind of unqualified good  in business.  Many people even seem to think it is ok for a business to break the law to make more money, if they can get away with it.

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What is your definition of profit? 

 

I cannot see why a person would put their own capital at risk (which is what a business owner is doing) if doing so brought them no return. 

 

They would presumably get some sort of salary. 

 

The reason for the risk would be that if this person just keeps spending the money to live, it will likely eventually run out.  If there is enough that it wouldn't be an issue, that person can just live off that money if he prefers.  Someone else will have to step forward to supply whatever the need is.

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I don't think it is ridiculous at all.  I personally don't know any burger flippers with degrees.  I assume some exist, but in our experience with homeschool teens working at fast food restaurants, I haven't seen any or heard of any.  My son works at a grocery store, as a checker.   He is 16.  Most of the folks, who aren't managers, are also high school or local community college students.

 

Caring for your child should be worth something.  Having the requirement of a BA for the job, should indicate the person has more training and would be worth something.  

 

The reality is, we don't put much value on childcare or child education.   A basketball player or actor doesn't do brain surgery either, but they sure make boatloads of money.   Our money goes where our values lie.

 

how much child care workers are paid - really comes down to how much people can afford for child care.  more can't afford very much, and being able to get child care can be the difference between  having a job and not.

 

For those who question whether automation will actually take over a lot of the minimum wage jobs, I offer self-serve gasoline as a cautionary tale.

 

I am old enough to remember service stations.  The workers would pump your gas, thoroughly clean and dry your windshields, check your oil, and assess the appearance of your tires while you sat calmly in the car.  Then they would bring you your bill.

 

I remember when all gas stations did that.  (the movie miracle brings back memories of gas lines).  not sure if there even  are any full-serve  stations  around.  (I usually buy my gas at costco - that doesn't even have self-serve windshield cleaner.)

 

and self-checkout in grocery stores, home depot, etc. etc.  costco tried it, but didn't like the results.

 

1ds made $15 straight out of high school  (he had a ccna, and working tech support.)   a $15 per hour minimum wage - will push that tech support wage up. he's now making >$3+ above our local minimum wage at a dept store. Heck, when I was a teen, minimum wage was <$3 an hour.

 

I can't remember the last time I saw a teen working fast food. Teens have a really hard time finding jobs. So do college students. IIRC ages 16-26 are the most highly unemployed of active job seekers. Why would any of those places hire someone that needs scheduling considerations when they literally have hundreds of applicants desperate for any work who will take any shift they can possible get so they can put food on their table?

 

I know lots of people with college degrees working various types of minimum wage jobs. And let me also say, that is not exactly encouraging people to think it's worth the huge debt and stress to get educated either. But then they worry about how much worse they might be without it.

 

And yes trades are awesome too. And not necessarily cheaper than a college degree either. Getting a trade and trying to make it profitable can be very very expensive. (Not to mention I think all people should be educated regardless of respective careers.)

 

I see teens working here.

because of where we live, there aren't a lot of 'minimum wage' jobs. many starting jobs pay more. ds is in college  working part time where they don't require anything more than a good work ethic.  no specific skills required.  his employer is very flexible with his hours. (he plans on dropping to one shift a week next quarter) between quarters he's scheduled full-time. 1dd was also working retail in college (I honestly can't recall what 2dd was doing, but I know she was working.  she's had a charmed life.) - and they would hold her job while she was away, and it was there when she came back.

 

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