dyslexia - comprehension of read material

[Melissa in Australia]

Hi

 

this is my 3rd with Dyslexia so you would think I would have it down pat now wouldn't you 

 

 

 ds13 has just started reading (in last few months) very simplified Usborne young readers series 2 and 3 INDEPENDENTLY. this was a HUGE moral booster for him because quite frankly he hated reading aloud ( As well as he found it incredibly embarrassing to  be 13 and still reading aloud to me). His problem is that he says he can read the words absolutely fine, but once they enter his head they disappear - he is just reading words and cannot connect them together to make any sense of them at all.  Now I know my brother - profoundly dyslexic  couldn't read a novel until 28 and then he worked out that if he skipped all the little words and just read the big words that he could enjoy the book. otherwise he would just reread the same paragraph over and over with no understanding. ds13 tells me that ds19 does something similar.

 

 

What reading phonics program we have done from scratch is LEM -  Basically an Australian accent version of Spalding. HE can recognise and name all the sounds of all the  phonograms apart for the last 4 ci, ti, si ( Which is where we are up to in the program ) 

 

Just recently I bought the complete set of Fitzroy readers - phonics readers and he read aloud to me almost the whole set form beginning readers right through. this is how he can read to himself a bit now. When he reads to himself he whispers the words -he said that improves his understanding very slightly. He also only reads 3-4 pages in a sitting because he gets so mentally fatigued. He is so upset and embarrassed. last night he hid himself in his room and was crying in frustration  because he feels that he isn't getting anywhere.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions?

 

expensive American programs become very very expensive once you include the exchange rate and shipping.  And when I look at some of the American programs I don't think they are much different from what we are using. I am not sure that a change of program is what I need , but rather some targeted teaching? or something? I really don't know what to do to help him comprehend . .....

 

 

 

A friend who is an Speech Pathologist assessed him once for me. Ds hid in a tree for 1 hour and had to be coaxed down by the neighbour boy before he would do the assessment. He is that embarrassed about reading in front of others. His phonological awareness was fine, very very low in all other areas

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MistyMountain]

Maybe working on rapid naming would help him become more fluent and that would help him understand the sentences better. I read an article recently that mentioned two big issues are rapid naming and phonological awareness. It sounds like the phonological awareness is remediated but it is still hard work for him. Working memory might be another weakness that can be worked on. It sounds like working memory can be contributing.There are other reasons why comprehension can be difficult but it sounds like for him it is that it is a lot of work to read still. Can he understand audiobooks or when you read aloud?

Edited November 25, 2016 by MistyMountain

[prairiewindmomma]

Can he visualize what he is reading as he reads the words and remember it better?  I'd try to figure out where the breakdown is.  I suspect that it's more than just dyslexia.

[Heathermomster]

When DS started to read, he drew picture notes and used them to answer comprehension questions.

 

Does he use Immersion tech at all? My DS will simultaneously read and listen to books using an app called Voice Dream. If your child owns an iPod, there is an app that will allow him to take pictures of writing and then read the words to him. If your child can use tech to help himself, that might be very empowering for him. Ben Foss is severely dyslexic and a huge advocate for technology.

[Melissa in Australia]

Maybe working on rapid naming would help him become more fluent and that would help him understand the sentences better. I read an article recently that mentioned two big issues are rapid naming and phonological awareness. It sounds like the phonological awareness is remediated but it is still hard work for him. Working memory might be another weakness that can be worked on. It sounds like working memory can be contributing.There are other reasons why comprehension can be difficult but it sounds like for him it is that it is a lot of work to read still. Can he understand audiobooks or when you read aloud?

He can understand when I read aloud to him. We do most of his schoolwork with me reading aloud to him. Plus I read as much as I can to him to counter his lack of ability.

 

 

Short term memory is a big problem.  We have done some work on rapid naming with little cards with words on them. We practised the same 40 words for a year. it was like it was the first time he saw them every time. 

[Melissa in Australia]

Can he visualize what he is reading as he reads the words and remember it better?  I'd try to figure out where the breakdown is.  I suspect that it's more than just dyslexia.

I just asked him. he said he does not visualise as he is reading.

[Melissa in Australia]

When DS started to read, he drew picture notes and used them to answer comprehension questions.

 

Does he use Immersion tech at all? My DS will simultaneously read and listen to books using an app called Voice Dream. If your child owns an iPod, there is an app that will allow him to take pictures of writing and then read the words to him. If your child can use tech to help himself, that might be very empowering for him. Ben Foss is severely dyslexic and a huge advocate for technology.

we haven't tried that . I will look into voice dream and see if it helps him. 

 

sometimes for writing he uses a voice to text app. 

[OneStepAtATime]

Has he had a neuropsychology evaluation?  A developmental vision assessment?  

 

On a separate note, how does he do with audio books?  

[Melissa in Australia]

only my oldest has had a neuropsychology evaluation for his Dyslexia . it is just too expensive and we can only justify it for the paperwork necessary to assist with University. 

Dyslexia runs really really strong in my side of the family.

 

 

So far he has refused to use audio books. 

[OneStepAtATime]

I was wondering because it sounds like more than just dyslexia going on. I understand the expense issue. Evals can be horribly expensive. What about vision? Has he had any sort of developmental vision eval? I don't think that is the whole issue but I wonder if it might be a piece of a more complicated puzzle. Those are usually significantly cheaper than a neuropsychology evaluation but I don't know that one would be available in your area.

[Melissa in Australia]

Do you mean a Developmental Optometrist? there is one 200 km away  that I take twin 2 to for his  Monocular Nystagmus. 

 

This particular Developmental Optometrist does not believe in Dyslexia at all. While working as a teacher  some of my students went to see him. He made all sorts of ludicrous claims about magical cures etc. 

 

I could take him to a regular Optometrist  would that help?  With my other boys they would diagnose a slow focus speed and tell me it is just as well I homeschool as they would have difficulty going form a whiteboard to notebook.

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Melissa in Australia

[Heathermomster]

we haven't tried that . I will look into voice dream and see if it helps him.

 

sometimes for writing he uses a voice to text app.

Whispersync with Audible and Kindle books provides the same technology.

 

Look into the American Ben Foss. He is severely dyslexic and cannot read so uses audio books and text to speech technology for everything. He graduated law school.

[Melissa in Australia]

Fantastic. We will try it

[OneStepAtATime]

Do you mean a Developmental Optometrist? there is one 200 km away  that I take twin 2 to for his  Monocular Nystagmus. 

 

This particular Developmental Optometrist does not believe in Dyslexia at all. While working as a teacher  some of my students went to see him. He made all sorts of ludicrous claims about magical cures etc. 

 

I could take him to a regular Optometrist  would that help?  With my other boys they would diagnose a slow focus speed and tell me it is just as well I homeschool as they would have difficulty going form a whiteboard to notebook.

Actually, yeah I would definitely NOT take him to the Developmental Optometrist, then.  :)  I have one  of those locally, too.  We had to go 4 hours away to find someone with a more accurate/realistic/experienced viewpoint regarding dyselxia and comorbid vision issues.

 

It doesn't sound like the regular Optometrist may be able to help either, but it is hard to say from your post.

 

I'm not sure what to advise here.  I really do think more is going on than just dyslexia but trying to tweak it all out will probably take time and money.  I really wish I had some solid suggestions.

 

Hopefully some of the other suggestions may help.  I want to send you best wishes as you navigate these waters.  Hugs.

[geodob]

Melissa,  perhaps you could teach him to read?

Which comes back to your brother's explanation: ' he worked out that if he skipped all the little words and just read the big words that he could enjoy the book.'

 

Where this 'skipping little words', needs to be explained.

Rather than 'skipping', it involves 'seeing these little words in the background'.

So that when reading, instead of the eyes moving from word to word, and sounding out every word?

The eyes move from 'key-word' to key-word, in a sentence.  (which your brother described as 'big words'.)

The 'little words', only need to be seen in the background to the key-words,  to be cognised.

 

These 'little words',  also don't need to fully sounded out. They can be slurred, or not sounded out at all.

The result of this, is that after reading a sentence?

What is retained in short term memory, are just the keywords.

Where comprehension is formed by associations between the keywords.

 

He also needs to practice reading silently. So that he can hear the words in his mind, without even whispering them.

[Melissa in Australia]

great idea. 

[Heathermomster]

Here's a link to check out:

https://homeschoolingwithdyslexia.com/how-the-amazon-kindle-can-help-the-dyslexic-reader/

 

Immersion Reading for Whispersync for Voice
With Immersion Reading for Kindle Fire and Kindle Fire HD,  Kindle edition books are synched to the corresponding Audible audio edition AND as the books are read the text is highlighted while it is narrated via the Audible audio book.

 

 

 

My DS does so much better with this tech.  He can adjust the voice speed and pitch.  The Voice Dream reader uses a digital voice, so you can try different voices and purchase one that he prefers for a small fee.  My DS prefers Tyler from OZ.  We get books from BookShare in the US and Project Gutenberg plus the sw works with PDFs, word docs, and websites.  DS has also started using a text to speech app on the Chrome web browser.

 

My son wears a set of bluetooth headphones as he reads and no one knows or cares that he is using the tech.  

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

When DS started to read, he drew picture notes and used them to answer comprehension questions.

 

Does he use Immersion tech at all? My DS will simultaneously read and listen to books using an app called Voice Dream. If your child owns an iPod, there is an app that will allow him to take pictures of writing and then read the words to him. If your child can use tech to help himself, that might be very empowering for him. Ben Foss is severely dyslexic and a huge advocate for technology.

Can my son take photos of the text and read it with Voice Dream ?

 

If it can this will be liberating for him with his interest- all sciences

Thank you

Edited November 27, 2016 by Melissa in Australia

[PeterPan]

SLP eval said phonological processing fine but low in other areas. What areas?

 

Why does he refuse audiobooks?

 

Treatment for the nystagmus?

[Heathermomster]

Can my son take photos of the text and read it with Voice Dream ?

 

If it can this will be liberating for him with his interest- all sciences

Thank you

No...take a look at an app called Claro ScanPen. I haven't tried it so don't know how well it works.

 

http://thecodpast.org/2016/08/dysboxing-9-claro-scanpen-ocr-app-review/

Edited November 27, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Melissa in Australia]

SLP eval said phonological processing fine but low in other areas. What areas?

 

Why does he refuse audiobooks?

 

Treatment for the nystagmus?

The eval was done a good 18 months ago possably a bit longer. We have done a fair amount of work on some of theses areas and I believe there will be a bit of improvement since then

 

These were the results.

 

Orthographic coding

Receptive coding extremely low, 0.4 percentile

 

Expressive coding extremely low, 0.4 percentile

 

Phonological coding within normal limits 25 percentile

 

Morphological decoding 0.4 percentile. ( this is the area I think has improved)

 

Verbal working memory, 2nd percentile

 

Pseudoword decoding extremely low 0.4 percentile

 

Sentence structure - looks at oral language and uses morphemes and sentences, average, 37 percentile

 

Word choice, finding a correctly spelt word form 3 , 0.1 percentile

 

d b confusion

 

Conclusion

Poor verbal working memory

 

Poor rapid automatic naming

 

Extremely poor orthographic coding

 

Phonological skills intact and language skills intact

 

 

I don't know why he will not use audio books. He has told me they are boring

 

It is the Foster child that has the nystagmus, no treatment, not ds13

Edited November 27, 2016 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

No...take a look at an app called Claro ScanPen. I haven't tried it so don't know how well it works.

 

http://thecodpast.org/2016/08/dysboxing-9-claro-scanpen-ocr-app-review/

 

Thank you so much. I will purchase this and voice dream as soon as I can get to a shop to get an iTunes card.

 

It will allow ds to become more independent for some of his learning. At the moment I am reading every subject to him.

 

Thank you so much

Edited November 27, 2016 by Melissa in Australia

[PeterPan]

The eval was done a good 18 months ago possably a bit longer. We have done a fair amount of work on some of theses areas and I believe there will be a bit of improvement since then

 

These were the results.

 

Orthographic coding

Receptive coding extremely low, 0.4 percentile

 

Expressive coding extremely low, 0.4 percentile

 

Phonological coding within normal limits 25 percentile

 

Morphological decoding 0.4 percentile. ( this is the area I think has improved)

 

Verbal working memory, 2nd percentile

 

Pseudoword decoding extremely low 0.4 percentile

 

Sentence structure - looks at oral language and uses morphemes and sentences, average, 37 percentile

 

Word choice, finding a correctly spelt word form 3 , 0.1 percentile

 

d b confusion

 

Conclusion

Poor verbal working memory

 

Poor rapid automatic naming

 

Extremely poor orthographic coding

 

Phonological skills intact and language skills intact

 

 

I don't know why he will not use audio books. He has told me they are boring

 

It is the Foster child that has the nystagmus, no treatment, not ds13

 

So I'm wondering about his actual language development.  I *think* maybe the DAR generates some comprehension scores on vocab, sentence, and paragraph level.  Runs in my mind, and I'm too lazy to pull my stuff out.  I just wonder why the SLP didn't bother to run a CELF or the CASL, just to see.  If he's refusing audiobooks, you're not guaranteed that bringing in more tech will help.  Clearly he has dysgraphia, but the question is whether his language development is behind for whatever reasons.  It would become a vicious cycle, where he avoids things he doesn't understand, resulting in him getting less input to improve his language skills.  You mentioned some avoidance behaviors, and even though you said they were in the context of the dyslexia, still they were concerning to me.  (I'm just saying things I noticed that made my eyebrows go up.)

 

So you could consider language testing to see whether he actually has the oral language comprehension to understand what he's reading.  My ds was in that boat, not understanding what he was reading, basically a hyperlexic dyslexic (meaning he was reading beyond what he could comprehend), and for him it took specific language intervention work.  We had to go all the way back to the beginning, with prepositions, articles, plurals, EVERYTHING.  We used The Grammar Processing Program from Super Duper. I didn't just choose it randomly.  I actually had test scores showing me that was the problem, that his language wasn't keeping pace.  

 

So anyways, it's just something to look into.  Those numbers are very, very low, so it may just be the severity of the dyslexia.  I'm just saying for my ds, who was doing the same thing, finally reading but not comprehending, it was a language problem. It's something they can check.  

 

Have you had his hearing tested?  Has he been screened for APD?  How does he do with your read alouds?  Are you reading aloud to slow it down?  You can adjust the speed on digital readers, the kindle app, etc.

Edited November 28, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Melissa in Australia]

I have not had his hearing tested. 

I am not sure what DAR stands for. I googled and got a huge list of things I am sure you are not meaning..

 

It is certainly a vicious circle with him trying to avoid just about everything except science ( academically).

 

He is fine with read alouds. He will sometimes interrupt me to ask me to re-read a small section if his attention has wondered. He seems to understand what I am reading him, and often will discuss things I am reading to me. I can read something like a science experiment to him once and he will go and do it all interdependently without having to have any explaining what to do. HE can follow a list of multiple  oral instructions fine.

 

He is an extremely quiet boy- doesn't talk much , but all my children are quiet until they leave home ( 18 and over) 

 

I am just in the process to trying to buy all about spelling. Thinking that the more hands on approach and going right back to the start might help him as the LEM program we are using  has got to the point where he has completely stalled.

 

I will get the apps and strongly encourage him to use them- I don't know what else to do. I spoke to the Speech Pathologist who tested him 18 months ago and she was very reluctant to test him again. Mostly because last time ds climbed up a tree and it took over an hour to coax him down before she could do the tests. She said that as far as she is concerned he has to come to a point where he wants to help himself and it might not happen until he is in his 30's, until then there is nothing she or anyone can do  ..  .I am not prepared to just sit back and wait for him to get to that point. So I feel that basically I am completely on my own, only suggestions  coming from this forum. 

 

[geodob]

Hi Melissa,

Everything that you've written, suggests to me that he hasn't developed the ability to 'Sub-vocalise' and use 'Self-Talk'.

Which you would be using as read this. Where you can hear the words in your mind, without saying them out loud.

 

When people haven't developed their Self-Talk, they will have to read aloud.  Or at least, whisper loud enough, to hear themselves.

But without Self-Talk, they are unable to use 'verbal recall'.  

Where I note his low Verbal working memory.

Without Self-Talk, they will typically develop a thinking process. That relies on Visual recall.  Where their thinking is rather like a 'silent movie'.

When you say that he has no problem with recalling a 'science experiment', and 'multiple oral instructions'?

I would suggest that he is recalling them visually, rather than verbally.

 

Though one major deficit with not being able to use Self-Talk?

Is the ability to process and recall words, such as: 'if, could, should, might, perhaps, was, has, etc'. 

That can't be visualised, except as printed word.

Which is where Comprehension is severely effected. 

 

But as your son is 13, he is old enough to discuss this with him.

Where you could simply ask him.

If when he reads, can he hear the words in his mind?

Without saying them out loud, or whispering them?

 

For 13 year old's, who haven't develop their Self-Talk?

When asked, their typical response is:  " Of course I don't hear voices ! Do you think that I'm crazy ?"

As they don't know that other people use Self-Talk. 

 

So perhaps you could simply discuss this with him?

[Melissa in Australia]

thank you 

 

 I had a discussion with my son, and he said he doesn't know if he hears words in his head. He also doesn't know if he sees pictures in his head either. I asked him what about if I give you a list of instructions and gave him an example. He said he just does it without thinking if it is pictures or words in his head. I think he thought I was pretty silly asking him such questions :laugh:

 

So how would I teach self-talk to him? if there is a way I could always give it a go if he isn't using self talk it will help him and if he is than he can continue to think he has a crazy mother. 

 

I myself have Dyslexia, I know I do self talk, even whe reading,  but I also find if I have a large amount of tasks I need to go through the list verbally . My theory (and explanation to my kids who have always known I am crazy)  is that when I hear my voice it goes to another part of my brain where I remember things longer. Drives DH insane because he thinks I am muttering all the time

[Melissa in Australia]

No...take a look at an app called Claro ScanPen. I haven't tried it so don't know how well it works.

 

http://thecodpast.org/2016/08/dysboxing-9-claro-scanpen-ocr-app-review/

Just reporting back that he really likes Claro ScanPen. :hurray:  :hurray: 

 

 

He has told me it sounds a lot better than my voice . He is yet to use it for his actual schoolwork ( he is yet to do his schoolwork today :glare:  :glare: ) So far he has used it to read the warranty  manuals of multiple products, Instructions  for using the lamination ( which he then used) and  things along those lines.

 

I would recommend ScanPen for anyone who is looking for a product like that.

[Heathermomster]

Awesome about the Claro app...

 

I almost wonder if we need a thread dedicated to Ozzie users. In the US, we have Learning Ally, BookShare, Librivox, Project Gutenberg, and the National Library Service/BARD. Australia has to have something similar, yes?

 

With your son's low working memory, you may need to explore interactive metronome, BrainHQ, and Cogmed. When my son was younger, we used a lot of kinesthetic acvtivities and chunking to help him memorize information. At the time, the movement felt dumb but it worked.

 

IDK if you have CBT available, but you could look for one that specializes in executive function and therapy to help your son sort his differences. 13 years of age is a challenging time with young men. They are seeking approval from their peer group and want to be like everyone else.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Melissa in Australia]

Thank you

 

 I just checked.

 

 We have Librivox and have only just started using it within our family. We ( our family) are pretty new to iPad  and touchscreen technology.

 

I can access Project Gutenburg Australia

 

there is a BookShare Australia but I would need paperwork form a psychologist saying he has a sever disability first  

 

 

 

[prairiewindmomma]

Melissa--we have found Bookshare helpful enough to be worth the effort. Once you are in the system, yearly renewals happen easily through you if you register as a homeschooling family.   We did not need a psychologist to do the Bookshare initial registration paperwork; our regular ophthalmologist did it for us. Do you have any friends who are special education teachers? They are sufficiently authoritative according to Bookshare Aus http://www.speld-sa.org.au/links/bookshare-online-digital-book-library.html

Edited November 29, 2016 by kbeal

[Heathermomster]

As a high schooler, DS lives off of Bookshare in the US.  All of his textbooks were available through them.  I requested one book, and they provided it after about a month.  

[Melissa in Australia]

I have a Speech Pathologist who sees the twins. She is the one that did the texting on ds18 months ago.... she was very unhelpful last weekend when I went over and asked her for advice ( I did tell her I would pay for advice) a bit down on homeschooling etc. Maybe I caught her on an off day..... I will ask her next time I see her for the twins. (I am actually paying her privately to see the twins , $100 per hour cash, and she only shows up about 50% of the time. ) 

[Heathermomster]

Fill out the Bookshare forms and keep them nearby so that she can sign them. Testing is less than 3 years old, so the testing numbers should be good enough.

[Melissa in Australia]

Awesome about the Claro app...

 

 

Ever more Awesome news about the app. DS13 today did a worksheet completely independent and got everything  completely right for the first time ever. :hurray:

 He was so happy with himself. He then went to the computer and did some research on some attachment for his bow. He read the whole page by himself, then got out the ipad and took a photo of the screen and checked over what her read. This is going to revolutionise his life. I cannot express how excited I am by this. It is  a breakthrough moment in his education

 

 thank you,thank you so much

Edited November 30, 2016 by Melissa in Australia

[prairiewindmomma]

Hurray!

[Heathermomster]

Do you use Chrome for a web browser? If so, there are extensions that may be added with the text to speech option. We use Select and Speak. Google, install, and play with them to determine which is the best option.

Check the text to speech options on your computer. As DS types his papers in Word, he periodically highlights the texts and listens to the playback. That feature also works with Adobe Acrobat for reading PDFs.

 

ETA:  Two text to speech extensions for Chrome are Select and Speak and SpeakIt!.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Heathermomster