Blackbird or Elegant Essay before Lively Art of Writing (and schedule?)

[Soror]

Looking ahead to next year I'm strongly considering LAoW with Quark's workbook of course. It is my understanding that LAoW only takes a half a year. I was considering Elegant Essay(IEW) or Intro to Comp(Blackbird) for the first semester. Any opinions? I own LAoW but have only seen the samples of EE and Intro to Comp. Personally, I think Blackbird would be a better fit and better preparation but without using either of them and only seeing samples I might be missing something.

 

- this will be for my son, he is doing Cover Story this year- I was planning on going through Blackbird Intro onto the end of my year but he is not a very fast worker so it looks like Cover Story will last all year. He is right on the cut-off here - so will be a young 8th grader/older 7th grader. He is more of a big picture thinker and greatly enjoys words and writing but gets tripped up on the details.

 

Also, is there a premade schedule out there anywhere or LAoW? I've looked some but not had any luck. I'd love to save myself some work and at least find something to start from. Ds does well with detailed instructions about what to do every day and if i can find it pre-done all the better for me.

Edited November 10, 2016 by soror

[Soror]

anybody ???

[hollyhock]

I can't help you with which to do first, but as far as scheduling LAOW, I think the general recommendation is to do about a chapter a week. When I tried it with my son, that meant reading the chapter over about two days and then doing the workbook exercises on the remaining days. Hope that's a bit helpful.

[Soror]

I can't help you with which to do first, but as far as scheduling LAOW, I think the general recommendation is to do about a chapter a week. When I tried it with my son, that meant reading the chapter over about two days and then doing the workbook exercises on the remaining days. Hope that's a bit helpful.

thank you, hollyhock, that is helpful.

[Roadrunner]

Blackbird uses Thinking in Threes as part of its program. While I didn't use the entire program, we did use Thinking in Threes. It took us less than two months to get through it and taught my son the form of an essay. We are planning on LAoW next year. I think LAoW is a sophisticated version of Thinking in agrees, say the latter is more appropriate for grade 5 and 6 and former for upper logic stage.

[Soror]

Blackbird uses Thinking in Threes as part of its program. While I didn't use the entire program, we did use Thinking in Threes. It took us less than two months to get through it and taught my son the form of an essay. We are planning on LAoW next year. I think LAoW is a sophisticated version of Thinking in agrees, say the latter is more appropriate for grade 5 and 6 and former for upper logic stage.

Thank you for your input. From what i have seen and read it seemed that LAoW would follow Blackbird. Reading old threads about LAoW it seems grade 7 was the most often rec. age for using it. I think it will be a good fit next year.

[Roadrunner]

Thank you for your input. From what i have seen and read it seemed that LAoW would follow Blackbird. Reading old threads about LAoW it seems grade 7 was the most often rec. age for using it. I think it will be a good fit next year.

I agree. DS will be in 7th next year and I wouldn't have gone through LAoW sooner. We will use in alongside WWS3 next year.

[nansk]

There are two schedules in this thread.

[Soror]

There are two schedules in this thread.

Thank you! I had read that thread but lost it, now I'll have it in my content!

[nansk]

I agree. DS will be in 7th next year and I wouldn't have gone through LAoW sooner. We will use in alongside WWS3 next year.

Hi,

Can you compare the skills taught in WWS1-3 and in LAOW? I have read LAOW, but only glanced at WWS1 and I don't have the other books yet.

[Roadrunner]

Hi,

Can you compare the skills taught in WWS1-3 and in LAOW? I have read LAOW, but only glanced at WWS1 and I don't have the other books yet.

We have only so far gone through WWS1 and first 9 chapters of WWS 2, so I still don't have the full picture. I will say that longer we stay with WWS, more I see the benefit of working through it. LAOW adresses the essay - how to write a thesis statement, how to structure the paragraph and support your thesis, how to write conclusions. WWS is teaching us more technical skills, how do you write a description of a place that you will later incorporate into a larger piece of writing. Have you ever considered a perspective when you describe a place? How do you write a biographical sketch? What about a narrative about scientific discovery or a historical event? So far WWS has avoided thesis based writing, although we did work on writing intros and conclusions. Maybe WWS 3 will cover an essay, but thus far it looks like LAoW is complementary. We have also done some literary analysis worth WWS, but not the type in LAoW where you argue a thesis. Again, keep in mind my perspective is limited since we aren't even halfway through the series.

[nansk]

I will say that longer we stay with WWS, more I see the benefit of working through it. LAOW adresses the essay ... WWS is teaching us more technical skills...So far WWS has avoided thesis based writing, although we did work on writing intros and conclusions. Maybe WWS 3 will cover an essay, but thus far it looks like LAoW is complementary. We have also done some literary analysis worth WWS, but not the type in LAoW where you argue a thesis..

Thank you very much! This makes it clear. We will do WWS first.

[deerforest]

We did the first 2 Blackbird essay books before starting Lively Art of Writing. They were fine, but honestly a little more formulaic than I had hoped. It was a gentle introduction to essays, though. We didn't do the 3rd yet because DD wasn't interested in doing the literary essay. Lively focuses on the persuasive essay. I liked the general recommendations for writing in Lively much more. Sometimes the 1950s lifestyle references were too entertaining, though, and we had to force ourselves to not get too distracted.
 

Here are some slides someone (presumably a teacher) shared online that you can use with Lively too in addition to the workbook: http://slidegur.com/doc/3259265/the-lively-art-of-writing

 

We are still more theoretical essayists than practical ones here. DD's learning style is such that she takes in a lot of info and then when it reaches critical mass, she suddenly creates output that is several levels higher. I call it leapfrog learning. 

 

So, she is not yet producing essays that I'd like to see, but I also manage a team of writers and likely have a hard time identifying age appropriate criteria. But, I think she has learned a lot from both programs, and we're on the cusp of it all coming together.

 

We both recommend using Breakfast on Mars as a great source of sample essays that are fun to read and analyze.

 

 

Edited November 13, 2016 by deerforest

[Soror]

We did the first 2 Blackbird essay books before starting Lively Art of Writing. They were fine, but honestly a little more formulaic than I had hoped. It was a gentle introduction to essays, though. We didn't do the 3rd yet because DD wasn't interested in doing the literary essay. Lively focuses on the persuasive essay. I liked the general recommendations for writing in Lively much more. Sometimes the 1950s lifestyle references were too entertaining, though, and we had to force ourselves to not get too distracted.

 

Here are some slides someone (presumably a teacher) shared online that you can use with Lively too in addition to the workbook: http://slidegur.com/doc/3259265/the-lively-art-of-writing

 

We are still more theoretical essayists than practical ones here. DD's learning style is such that she takes in a lot of info and then when it reaches critical mass, she suddenly creates output that is several levels higher. I call it leapfrog learning.

 

So, she is not yet producing essays that I'd like to see, but I also manage a team of writers and likely have a hard time identifying age appropriate criteria. But, I think she has learned a lot from both programs, and we're on the cusp of it all coming together.

 

We both recommend using Breakfast on Mars as a great source of sample essays that are fun to read and analyze.

thank you for your input and recommendation, it is greatly appreciated. Where did you go after LAoW? I'm checking out the options but not feeling great about any of them.

[deerforest]

thank you for your input and recommendation, it is greatly appreciated. Where did you go after LAoW? I'm checking out the options but not feeling great about any of them.

 

Pondering that at this very moment! I haven't really started anything for writing yet this year because nothing feels quite right. I keep considering Writing with a Thesis, and that's probably what I will do for 8th.

 

For this year, I might just continue working on persuasive argument and logic. We've doing our own thing with that so far so less focusing on writing and more on thinking and analyzing. I have Twisting Arms, which I've seen a lot of folks recommend too. I'm just kinda making it up right now because I'm not thrilled with anything, and I don't think she's quite ready for Writing with a Thesis yet.

[Roadrunner]

We were thinking to do Workbook for Arguments as a follow up to WWS and LAoW. We have two years to go first though. 😳

[deerforest]

We were thinking to do Workbook for Arguments as a follow up to WWS and LAoW. We have two years to go first though. 😳

We have been reading "nonsense", but it's too much detail right now. DD enjoys it but it's more than we need right now. I was thinking of Workbook for 9th...

[Soror]

Pondering that at this very moment! I haven't really started anything for writing yet this year because nothing feels quite right. I keep considering Writing with a Thesis, and that's probably what I will do for 8th.

 

For this year, I might just continue working on persuasive argument and logic. We've doing our own thing with that so far so less focusing on writing and more on thinking and analyzing. I have Twisting Arms, which I've seen a lot of folks recommend too. I'm just kinda making it up right now because I'm not thrilled with anything, and I don't think she's quite ready for Writing with a Thesis yet.

I had been thinking LToW would be perfect but then I read your threads and I'm not so sure. I have Writing with a Thesis too for some later point. I don't think WWS would be a good fit for ds at all. I've thought about OYAN at some point, maybe a BW class, I don't know, I'm sure there are other programs out there that I don't know about.

[lisabees]

Pondering that at this very moment! I haven't really started anything for writing yet this year because nothing feels quite right. I keep considering Writing with a Thesis, and that's probably what I will do for 8th.

 

For this year, I might just continue working on persuasive argument and logic. We've doing our own thing with that so far so less focusing on writing and more on thinking and analyzing. I have Twisting Arms, which I've seen a lot of folks recommend too. I'm just kinda making it up right now because I'm not thrilled with anything, and I don't think she's quite ready for Writing with a Thesis yet.

 

I am the last person to give advice at this time, as I, too, have been struggling with writing options.

 

I have recently decided to only focus on the thinking/analyzing aspect.  I started a recent thread on the high school board about it.  DD13 likes to write fiction. Last year, she wrote for an hour or two a day as part of school.  This year, I felt that we should concentrate on the essay thing (started LAOW), but it just didn't feel right.  It just isn't the right time. 

 

So...we are going to concentrate on reading and listening and talking about books and language.  And I will give her time to free write every day - maybe with prompts one day; maybe certain kinds of "projects" on others.

 

Some things that we have started and are enjoying...

 

Patterns of College Writing (Awesome, awesome.  We read and discuss.  Recommended by 8filltheheart.)

MCT Writing of Literature (just read)

Excavating English

Lots of short stories

 

 

We have been doing these since the beginning of the year to encourage the thinking part...

 

Big History

Hakim's US History with Zinn and Stanford's Reading Like a Historian

Philosophy for Kids

Art of Argument

 

I am still in the midst of sorting things out in my mind, but I wanted to suggest Patterns of College Writing, if you think your dd might be ready for it.  I have WWaT; I went through it with my SDD last year.  Patterns serves exactly what I need now, though.  It goes deeper and is great when using just for discussion.  I am NOT doing anything else but reading and discussing.

 

My current thoughts have hovered over going deep rather than broad - settling down with one idea or one book and really soaking it in - rather than trying to do it all.  

 

Sorry to hijack!

Edited November 14, 2016 by lisabees

[nansk]

 Where did you go after LAoW? I'm checking out the options but not feeling great about any of them.

Obviously I have no experience, but I'm thinking that it may not be necessary to do a writing book year after year. Once dc gets the general idea of developing a thesis, arguments/refutation, and citation, then they should write regularly to practice those skills.

[deerforest]

I struggle because our entire approach to schooling is Big Discussions. We've used many of the materials Lisa referenced but I had forgotten about that "Patterns" book. I am drawn to the thesis one because that is her weak area. DH brought her to Obama's visit to our town last week and I told her I wanted her to write about the experience. I didn't give enough guidance and she started on this rambling descriptive essay which really had no focus at all. I stopped her after about a page, and told her to just write about how she felt when she finally saw him.

 

She then wrote perhaps the best writing she has ever written. It had purpose. It had her voice. It was emotionally moving, it was well-structured. It had a few mechanical errors but I didn't bother giving her that feedback. I told her we needed to put it in a scrapbook along with her pictures from the day. Honestly, I can see pieces of this being part of her personal essay for college one day.

 

That's the struggle I have. She can do this but it has to be meaningful to her for her to do it well. I know it won't always be like that so I'm not too concerned, but it's so hard to help her find focused and meaningful topics.

[lisabees]

Soror - how is your ds liking Cover Story?

 

I like what I have seen of They Say, I Say for the high school years, but I don't have it on hand.

 

deerforest - I think your judgement is clouded by your professional life!   :lol: Your dd is only in seventh grade; that essay she wrote sounds remarkable.  I think that if our middle schoolers can learn structure and voice through those meaningful pieces now, then it will manifest naturally in the later years, when writing less meaningful pieces.  This is the time to expose them to those opportunities.  

 

My older boys didn't use writing curricula, but they are deep thinkers and great writers.    They read a lot and questioned a lot.  

 

There's the difference between dd and my boys.  They were academically driven - no - obsessed.  DD reads a lot during school hours, but how engaged is she?  Not much. She is much better this year, though.  Last year was her first year home and she was struggling emotionally with a few things.

 

WWaT and Patterns can be used any way you'd like.  No need to give assignments.  Patterns has comprehension questions and questions about style and structure and author's purpose.  It includes journal entry questions and has writing prompts.  Perfect for discussion.  WWaT is more focused on thesis.  

 

I used Thinking in Threes with my now 20 year old son.  He still talks about how much it helped him.

 

Wow.  I am rambling.

 

[Soror]

I struggle because our entire approach to schooling is Big Discussions. We've used many of the materials Lisa referenced but I had forgotten about that "Patterns" book. I am drawn to the thesis one because that is her weak area. DH brought her to Obama's visit to our town last week and I told her I wanted her to write about the experience. I didn't give enough guidance and she started on this rambling descriptive essay which really had no focus at all. I stopped her after about a page, and told her to just write about how she felt when she finally saw him.

 

She then wrote perhaps the best writing she has ever written. It had purpose. It had her voice. It was emotionally moving, it was well-structured. It had a few mechanical errors but I didn't bother giving her that feedback. I told her we needed to put it in a scrapbook along with her pictures from the day. Honestly, I can see pieces of this being part of her personal essay for college one day.

 

That's the struggle I have. She can do this but it has to be meaningful to her for her to do it well. I know it won't always be like that so I'm not too concerned, but it's so hard to help her find focused and meaningful topics.

 

Sounds like a wonderful paper. We've done a lot through discussions as well although we've not done it as much lately, adding in another kid and having dd move up has made that more challenging. it is nice to hear others prizing discussion so much as well.

Obviously I have no experience, but I'm thinking that it may not be necessary to do a writing book year after year. Once dc gets the general idea of developing a thesis, arguments/refutation, and citation, then they should write regularly to practice those skills.

Of course, we don't technically *need* a program BUT at this point I need it, perhaps hopefully at some point I'll have the time, energy and confidence (maybe when I get to kid 2 or 3 !) but I'm not there yet.

 

Soror - how is your ds liking Cover Story?

 

I like what I have seen of They Say, I Say for the high school years, but I don't have it on hand.

 

deerforest - I think your judgement is clouded by your professional life!   :lol: Your dd is only in seventh grade; that essay she wrote sounds remarkable.  I think that if our middle schoolers can learn structure and voice through those meaningful pieces now, then it will manifest naturally in the later years, when writing less meaningful pieces.  This is the time to expose them to those opportunities.  

 

My older boys didn't use writing curricula, but they are deep thinkers and great writers.    They read a lot and questioned a lot.  

 

There's the difference between dd and my boys.  They were academically driven - no - obsessed.  DD reads a lot during school hours, but how engaged is she?  Not much. She is much better this year, though.  Last year was her first year home and she was struggling emotionally with a few things.

 

WWaT and Patterns can be used any way you'd like.  No need to give assignments.  Patterns has comprehension questions and questions about style and structure and author's purpose.  It includes journal entry questions and has writing prompts.  Perfect for discussion.  WWaT is more focused on thesis.  

 

I used Thinking in Threes with my now 20 year old son.  He still talks about how much it helped him.

 

Wow.  I am rambling.

He likes Cover Story reasonably well. I doubt there is any program he would love. He enjoys fiction and making up stuff(not enough to do it on his on mind you). My ds enjoys reading as well and has great ideas too. I think/hope it will all come together at some point. The big reason i have him working on Cover story now is because I wanted him to just work on developing his voice this year.