Woodland Mist Academy Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 Great question and one that needs wiser words than mine. There is always room for more wisdom. That said, there is much wisdom and truth interwoven in your words. Thanks for writing them. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Oh man, I'd been avoiding this thread but after a sleepless night with a puking child, I don't have the willpower to stay away. I have many thoughts but feel many of them are too particular to share here, where we are talking about the Form rather than the reality. But I will say one thing that's been running through my head throughout is that the original question got at a crucial point: what is X for a) your child (add multiple Xs here if you have multiple children) and b) for you. So for me, there are 3 distinct Xs: My X, dd14's X, and dd10's X. Even laying aside the constraints of time and money, that leaves me with something rather irreconcilable, as my two dd's Xs are quite different. And I really can't create them both. That's one train of thought I've been travelling. The other is the whole question of boxes. My dd14 is a 9th grader, and we're grappling with the boxes. She has a passion, a specialty, and a desire to spend her time focused on that passion. I keep talking about keeping the options open, college entrance requirements, etc. This puts as at opposition for the first time since I started homeschooling her. I'm not sure how to look past those boxes. Unless we just skip high school altogether, as Quark's always inspiring posts make me consider. So, I will have to think on that: If we skip high school altogether, and plan to use the CC to essentially prepare dd for transfer to the college of her choice in the future, what would that X look like? It's not constraint free, but it's a lot less hemmed in than the current path. If I can get myself back to the actual question in the OP, I'll be back. Excuse the ramble, lack of sleep has turned my brain to mush. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama2 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) What we all want... is to find the educational situation that matches the child’s particular blend of passions, abilities, and talents, meshes with our vision for our kids, and teaches to the child’s strengths while gently improving on weaknesses. That is X: the place where the best possible learning happens.... [Y]ou can imagine X. X has to equip your child to read, write, and understand maths.... X doesn’t have to occupy twelve years. It doesn’t have to use textbooks and teachers. It doesn’t have to happen during a particular part of the day or year. [snip] What skills will this education develop? What qualities? Are there teachers, courses, external structures? Does this education involve travel? Is it primarily active or book centered? Projects or written assignments? What part does... money play in this scenario? In what places does learning happen? Does this education involve any apprenticeships or internships? How does evaluation happen? What does the day look like? How much unstructured time is there? What other questions would you add? Here's my X (assuming the sky's the limit): ;) [Note: The colors don't mean anything, but that is how I think of things (in colors)] -- Yellow (Birth-3 years) The mother is able and willing to be home with the child, at least most of the time. She is nurturing, affectionate, patient, and reliable. She bonds with her child through feeding, bathing, snuggling, singing, talking, and playing. The young child feels secure and calm in the family's (usually) predictable routines. The home is reasonably clean, organized, and well-maintained. The child receives excellent nutrition, fresh air, sunshine, exercise, medical care, and rest. The entire family is tobacco-, alcohol-, and drug-free. Usage of electronic entertainment is kept to a minimum. There are appropriate toys, games, puzzles, and books in the home. Parents, grandparents, and other family members directly interact with the child daily, using proper speech patterns (i.e., not "baby talk") and a large vocabulary. Conversations are a normal part of family life. Arguments are rare. The child's parents have a healthy, stable marriage. Family members are emotionally healthy, or are steadfastly working their way to a state of health and wellness. Parents are mature, responsible, diligent, knowledgeable, capable, and willing to be in charge of themselves, their homes, and their children (i.e., "in authority"). The child begins to understand acceptable limitations on behavior (e.g., "no" means "no"), experiences gentle-but-firm discipline (when necessary), and recognizes and respects the parents' authority. Towards the end of this age range, the child starts to perform simple household tasks, under direct supervision and instruction. For example, the child can pick up toys, match socks, fold wash cloths, rake leaves, wash dishes (bowls), and (perhaps) feed a pet. The child spends significant time in nature, learning through first-hand observation and immersion. The park, the garden, the beach, the forest, the backyard, the farm, the farm market -- these are the young child's earliest and best "science classroom." The child spends time in the larger community -- with grandparents and other family members, at church, at the library, at the zoo, at the aquarium -- beginning to know the world and its wonders. For the most part, though, the young child is at home, with his or her mother (and siblings), learning from everyday life in the home setting. Green (3-6 years) The mother continues to be able and willing to be home with the child, at least most of the time. The same stability of life that characterized the early years endures throughout these preschool years. Perhaps at this point, the parents begin to focus the child's attention on distinctions of vocabulary (e.g., the differences between birds, as in "Blue Jay" or "American Robin"). They verbally (and more specifically) label "all the things" encountered by their child -- colors, textures, temperatures, tastes, foods, smells, sounds, musical instruments, flowers, trees, other plants, mammals, reptiles, birds, fish, amphibians, insects, invertebrates, games, toys, articles of clothing, body parts, vehicles, buildings, and so on. The child begins to acquire a more specific vocabulary in many areas. Parents in some way incorporate music into the preschool years. This could be as elaborate as Kinder Music classes or private music lessons (which I don't think are truly necessary, but not harmful if there's no pressure on the child), or as simple as singing, marching, and banging a drum at home to a Wee Sing CD (which was extremely fun for all involved!) Parents in some way continue to keep the child immersed in nature. This could be accomplished through formal "nature study" classes (perhaps at a local park), or through family hikes in the woods. The child could have a tiny plot of earth, or soil in a pot, in which to plant a few things -- zinnias, dill, basil, and green bush beans. Parents regularly read to the child, from picture books and chapter books. They make trips to the library and fill up a wagon with books (literally). Towards the end of this age range, the child begins to learn how to read, with consistent instruction a few minutes (10-15) a day, from The Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading, followed by BOB books or easy readers from the library (or the readers from All About Reading). If the child shows an interest, the mother can begin to teach simple letter formation (copywork), starting with lower case letters. The child learns to print his or her name. The child orally learns the parents' full names, home address, home phone number, birthdate, age, full names of siblings, and any other information the parents consider essential for safety. The child learns to use safety scissors, a glue stick, and how to fold paper. The child plays with clay, sand, playdough, burlap embroidery, beads, and other craft materials to develop hand strength and hand-eye-brain coordination. However, the overall focus of these years is not on "seatwork," but on vocabulary building (through conversations, experiences, and books) and large muscle development (through work, exercise, play, nutrition, and rest). While the child continues to experience life in the wider community, for the most part, the day is spent primarily at home with the mother (and siblings). Blue (6-9 years) Violet (9-12 years) Red (12-15 years) Orange (15-18 years) Brown (18-21? 22? years) Black (21? 22?-God only knows when) Edited November 5, 2016 by Sahamamama2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 I agree that a rich learning environment is so important at all ages. And while I'm not anti computer gaming, it needs to be so much more than that! And while ordinary chores and home life have an educational benefit in the preschool years, it isn't enough as kids get older. I'm saying that because it seems like one segment of educational neglect cases seem to allow kids to game to the exclusion of all else and another segment of educational neglect uses older kids as household servants and babysitters to the exclusion of all else. That's probably not the only configurations of educational neglect but they seem to be the ones we hear about. I know that this thought experiment isn't limited to homeschoolers but they have more freedom to take these to extremes. Though if I think about it, some b & m schools can be educational wastelands and devoid of a rich learning environment. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incognito Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) I currently live in a semi-rural blue-collar community. The initial discussion (and question) misses most of the people I run into. They aren't looking to maximize their children's potential or expecting schools to do that. People around me mostly expect schools to teach the kids so they aren't dumb and keep them safe (which is getting to be a bigger and bigger issue with school violence). The majority of the people around us do not care about kids getting into college. They want the kids to finish school and get a job. Maybe learn a trade. The really super smart ones can go to college, but it isn't an expectation. People mostly do not care about music or art - it is considered frivolous. Travel is to Disney or somewhere hot for fun or visiting relatives, not for educational purposes. So to reach most of the people I run into every day, I think one way to get them to think outside the box might be to have them consider the $$ the government spends on their kids' education currently ($7.5k/kid+infrastructure costs), and if YOU got to choose how that money was spent, what might be better than what we currently have? So much of the $$ is lost to bureaucracy and infrastructure, and I *think* that pointing this issue out to people *might* help them see that there are better ways. Also, pandering to the current trend of "kids live in a technological society now and need to learn to operate in it" might work too. People do recognize that the world now is different than when we were kids and people might be more open to different educational ideas sold as a remedy for the current world order. ETA: For me, educating the kids so they have opportunity to succeed is important. Also, an emphasis on mystery, truth and beauty is important. I find that losing ourselves in stories and being observant of what is around us is an excellent way to broaden our minds. I love the idea of small group learning, mentorships, travel, and lots of time for personal exploration of ideas. Edited November 5, 2016 by Incognito 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) Parent of a college grad here, one who is actually quite pleased with the results of my son's educational path. That path began at a Montessori school which he attended from age 3 through grade 6. Not every kid is a Montessori kid, but the method suited my son. And he was blessed with an elementary teacher who recognized that there were days when The Boy just needed to read for hours straight. She knew that he'd do math another day. He always did. This taught me a great lesson: Trust your child. My primary goal was not only to provide a solid educational base but to create a citizen of the world. This meant that we would travel, try new foods, attend various arts events, learn how to use mass transit. I fully believe in taking advantage of opportunities. We often attended lectures or events at the university. We would expand our minds at the local film festival or travel to a roots music festival to hear something completely different. We believe being outdoors is a critical part of daily life so that meant we needed to make time for walking, bike riding, fishing, etc. My son would spend hours with his nose in a book so I required daily mathematics and foreign language work. (ETA: my son in his adolescence admitted he needed daily expectations not weekly.) High school brought its challenges for me personally because I found the demands of AP exams to get in the way of my son's interests and sometimes even education itself. He took three AP exams, some classes at the local CC. I felt important to justify those "mommy grades". The Calculus AP exam infuriated me the most. As a former math instructor, I knew what material he needed to learn; the calculator shenanigans demanded by the AP were a waste of time. In my ideal world, there would be no AP. One of the tests that I applied to my son as a high school student was a simple thought experiment that I could test due to our broad friendship base: Could my son hold his own at a dinner table with people of all ages, varying educational backgrounds and different socio-economic backgrounds? Answer: yes. He could help move the conversation along and start new topics, all while eating whatever was placed before him. This may sound silly but I watched The Boy with friends in similar circumstances. Two of the five who passed the "dinner party" test with flying colors were homeschooled. They have finished college and are on solid footing with respect to career paths. Two of the traditionally schooled boys were often more comfortable with age peers; the young man who grew up in a university community easily passed my "dinner party" test. This week I was at a conference at which I participated in a break out session on developing teamwork between adults and youth. I was the oldest in my group. The youngest was a senior in high school. Our group also had one college student and two 30-somethings. We were discussing problems young people face in public education. The high school senior feels that standardized testing is stifling him. So often he feels that his teachers present things in classrooms not because they are beneficial but because the material is on a required list. One of those 30 somethings is homeschooling. She said that she is not quite sure all of her children will be "college material"; she feels that as a homeschool parent she will be able to adapt her educational paths to foster entrepreneurial skills if that seems more important than pre-college ones. We all agreed that individuals learn differently--failure to acknowledge this is part of the problem with text books and standardization. How do we reach all kids? We concluded smaller class size, recognition of individual interests and learning styles, more magnet school options, more homeschooling (!) Edited November 5, 2016 by Jane in NC 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 So many good points! Thinking about it further... I'm curious to know more details about who the audience is and in what way the OP is hoping to encourage them. Is the intended audience people who aren't home educators, but who want to be? Is it to encourage them to pull their kids from school? To encourage them to be creative with after-school opportunities? To encourage students to drop out of school? ;) Maybe if a clearer picture of the audience and goals were given, answers would change. (It could be that I just missed this info somewhere.) Knowing the next step in the thought experiment would be helpful. Step 1. Parents develop a list, which may include multiple impossibilities. Then what? Is there a dramatic reveal which magically makes them all possible? ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama2 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) Blue (6-9 years) We've recently come out of this stage. On the one hand, I'm tentative about making declarations; ;) on the other hand, I feel quite connected to it. These were wonderful years. We made many precious memories in this season. Perhaps the best thing I can say about these years, as pertains to an "ideal education," is that I am so, so thankful to have been able to homeschool our three daughters from the start. Way back in 1999, I came across this book in the public library. I had no kids, I wasn't even married, but that book started it all for me. Years later, married with three children, it was time to start homeschooling. In the beginning, our goal was to lay a solid foundation with reading, writing, arithmetic, work habits, faith formation, and general knowledge. The end of "3rd grade" for the twins seemed a long way off! And yet, the years went by, and we accomplished what we set out to do. More importantly, we did it with joy. I could write a list of "things to do" at this stage, but my best advice for parents here is to travel with joy in your journey. Children at these ages are so delightful, funny, and snuggly. They are curious and eager to please us. They will grow fast enough, soon enough. Why rush academic things? Why be "anxious over many things?" Some consistent work each day is sufficient. Finish it, then snuggle up and read. Let them be six, seven, and eight... missing teeth, warm breath, squishy. Why would we want it any other way? We focused on the 3 R's in these years. The girls learned to read with OPG, BOB books, AAR readers, ER library books, and then just about everything. They learned to write using WWE 1-3; narrations in History, Literature, and Science; letter writing; list making; and their own creative writing. For Spelling, we utilized AAS 1-4, then Phonetic Zoo. For Grammar, we worked through FLL 1-4, then transitioned into CLE LA (grammar only). For Vocabulary, we made use of Wordly Wise, Prima Latina, Latina Christiana I, and Roots Up. For Math, we had Horizons, then CLE Math. Our focus was always on these essential foundations. At the same time, we read and read and read aloud some more. Literature included Bible stories, fairy tales, folk tales, fables, poems, children's Shakespeare, chapter books, picture books, and children's classics. Our History & Geography Bookshelf captured our interest with biographies, atlases, stories of US History, and stories of the Ancient World. On our Science Bookshelf we could always find books about the amazing natural world around us. Our nature collection grew and grew. Our ability to identify and tell about things in nature developed as we learned to "do nature study." We purchased and listened to every Your Story Hour and Jim Weiss CD available. We listened to many more audiobooks from the library. We didn't have much money (except for buying books!), so we didn't do what many families seem to do at this stage--that is, sign children up for multiple, ongoing, outside activities. We went to church, the grandparents' house, the park, the beach, the living history farm, and other places. But there were no music lessons, except at home (recorder from me, piano from my mom). There were no art classes, except at home (truly pitiful little things they were, too). No sports teams, just running around the backyard, riling up the neighbors' dogs. No co-ops, clubs, or online anything, just our family doing its own thing, with books, paper, and pencils, at home. Here is where the enticing "anything goes" feature of your thought experiment starts to come into play for me. Should I let Susan Wise Bauer tempt me into dreaming about things that can never be? What difference would having funds have made for us at this stage? Honestly, it worked out well for us to be (mostly) at home. It may have made us more self-sufficient, but that's hard to know for certain. I do sometimes feel "different" from other homeschool moms IRL who are accustomed to a full line-up of outside co-ops, lessons, and classes. More... autonomous, maybe? More DIY? At the same time, I hear these busy moms talk about how they hate this or that aspect of it, but feel stuck in the co-op or class, and I just do not understand an adult being strapped in the car seat. I have always felt like the driver of this car. ;) But back to the money. I dream: DREAM #1: An in-home Art lesson, once a week. The Art teacher comes to our house and teaches a lovely lesson, using the best materials and techniques. The children proudly show me their exquisite creations, while I sip hot tea. The Art teacher and the children clean up everything. To be ideal, it has to be in my house, because I don't want to chop my day in half and drive all over the county in midwinter for an Art lesson (or much of anything else). In another idyllic variation of this dream, the Art teacher occasionally morphs into a Charlotte Mason Handicrafts teacher, and expertly leads the girls in crocheting, knitting, embroidery, macramé, and hand sewing. DREAM #2: In-home Music lessons, twice a week. The Music teacher comes to our house and teaches lovely Music lessons, alternating between theory and performance. She is able to teach voice, piano, recorder, and theory with equal grace and poise. Again, the lessons must be in-home to be ideal. DREAM #3: A kid-friendly gym in my finished, organized, climate-controlled garage (as if). There are exercise balls, exercise bikes (3), those climbing-the-wall thingies, stretching mats, and whatever else the kids hopefully wouldn't injure themselves on out there. Twice a week, an in-home Gym teacher comes and enthusiastically motivates the girls to move and sweat profusely. DREAM #4: I speak French. If I could go back and do anything differently, I would have a better Busy Work Zapper. If I could go back to those years, yet still retain what I learned by going through them, I would teach with fewer parts (curriculum-wise, that is). Edited November 5, 2016 by Sahamamama2 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama2 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) Violet (9-12 years) We are currently here. Hmmm.... what would be ideal? Another one of me, I think. It's starting to feel as though there isn't enough of me to go around. I don't like the thought of outsourcing. I truly enjoy hands-on, I-know-right-where-you-are teaching. I think my kids do best when I have that approach to things, except in areas where they are increasingly capable of independence and autonomy. For those things, I've let go (and gladly!), but where they still need a teacher alongside, I want to keep my hands on the wheel, at least for a while longer. Take Composition as an example. Oldest (6th grader) is in WWS 1. On Monday, she will be working on Week 20, Day 4. We go through every lesson together. There are parts to hand off to her, parts to scaffold, and parts to work through together. She despises the copia. "Ugh, it's grammar. I can't seem to escape grammar this year." No, dear, you can't. I know that she needs this; she learns so much from this (and I do, too). A part of me knows that if I wasn't doing the course alongside her, she might get away with doing less, with whining her way out of becoming excellent (that is, for someone else, either online or in a class). With me, there is no escaping. It's do or die. It hasn't killed her, yet. ;) At the end of each day's work, she admits to learning, to liking the process, to gaining the skill. Being a part of that is so cool, KWIM? I think that this is what I consider ideal for this age range -- a teacher who is coming alongside the student, encouraging, pushing, pulling, correcting, challenging, modeling, questioning. And knowing that kid inside and out. No excuses. It's time to work. It's time to rise up and be a scholar (in a way appropriate to the age). But it's an important distinction to me, to see that the Teacher-Student relationship, more than "the line-up," is what makes an education ideal, vital, effective. If we can cut through all the busy work, unproductivity, attitudes, habits, distractions -- and see to it that the student is putting time on task -- then I believe true learning will happen. At the same time, we are their parents, too. So, preserving and nurturing that Parent-Child relationship is also crucially important to the overall venture, whether homeschooling or not. I would say that during this stage (so far, so good), my girls have a healthy respect for my authority. We'll see how that plays out over time, particularly with my twins. :001_rolleyes: I can't wait to have all three girls in puberty at once. Daily household routines, chores, school day routines, instrument practice, personal hygiene, self-care, pet care, yard work, cooking, laundry, and other practical skills and habits -- get as many of these dealt with and in place as possible before the teen years. Compassion, empathy, kindness, service to others, character, leadership -- It's not that we can't address these prior to this stage of childhood, but I'm finding these ages to be so ripe for these kinds of issues and discussions. How do we use Literature to develop empathy, discernment, and compassion in our children? How do our studies lead to true, heartfelt wisdom, and not just accumulation of knowledge? Do we study character in a vacuum, or do we see what we discuss and read about impact how our children act? Are we good examples to our children -- patient, good, kind, compassionate? Physical health and wellness -- I'm finding this to be more important to emphasize than in previous years, when the kids just moved without prompting. Also, as the workloads increase, there is less time to be active, so we have to be more intentional about keeping our seatwork efficient and getting out to hike or play when that is done. Dreams. Again, see Dreams #1, #2, #3, and #4 (above). All these still apply, and to these I will add another. DREAM #5: We have friends. In-real-life friends. We do have acquaintances, but we don't have any friends. We're still trying to figure that out. The only people who seem perpetually available are unschoolers willing to "hang out" any day, all day. We love them, too, we really do, but we're not going that way. So, friends. Edited November 5, 2016 by Sahamamama2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Well, within my limitations as a teacher, which were many and annoying, I came pretty close to doing this. My children were so... um... odd??? that we wound up outside of ordinary very fast. We ourselves had learned absolutely nothing except how to read and math in our supposedly good school district, partly due to being genetically sieve-brained and partly due to poor teaching. We survived and made it through our STEM programs in college. Our children came with fairly obvious strengths and weaknesses, making it easier to guess what they might need to know as adults. They were fairly cooperative about being educated and absolutely did not want to go to public school. All those things combined allowed us to educate our children to please us. It was very scary but we felt that we did not have much choice anyway. I will thonk about how to describe what we did and how I would improve on it and get back to you. : ) Nan 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama2 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Nan, I'm looking forward to your thonks! :) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sahamamama2 Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 Red (12-15 years) I don't know, but I'd better get to work on it.Orange (15-18 years) Increasing responsibility for their choices, consequences, and work load. Some sort of in-country travel. Some sort of community service, even if it's caring for an elderly family member or doing work for a neighbor. Brown (18-21 years) Support the student's personal goals, as much as possible. Let go, as much as possible (that will be hard, I think). Black (21 & up) Again, I don't know. I still think some parental support can go a long way to helping a young person launch into adult life, but it's hard to know what is too much or not enough. We're not there yet, by a long shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) In the middle school years we did a lot of DIY.org stuff, electronics, music. My kids had the skills to start to actually be able to create things instead of just copying them. They both had their own businesses (though both started at age 8 with a quick bread business that ds later gave to dd when he moved on to other work). I think that my particular kids did more and more on their own because I didn't get in the way. They also started to bloom physically with sports. You don't necessarily have to have a lot of money for sports. We couldn't afford to continue the expensive gymnastics that dd was gifted in but she's excelled in running and crossfit, which is comparatively inexpensive. This was a time when my kids got to explore things on their own terms and it built self confidence and a very strong work ethic. In the middle years I actually backed off more from academics for my kids. As noted in some of the popular cry-for-help threads at the moment, kids can have some bad pushback at this age when it comes to academics. In our family's case, going for a lot more than the 3 R's when my kids were younger and then paring down to the 3 R's for middle school and giving them independence in the extras was what worked. edited to add in a missing word. Edited November 5, 2016 by Jean in Newcastle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (edited) In high school, I took time out for my Aspie to learn the world of work as he worked half time. That was more important for him at that junction and actually was the key to his Executive Function skills coming together in everything - including his school work. Or maybe it was just a result of letting him mature on his own time table. (It's hard to know since it's not like we can do controlled experiments with our kids.) For my dd, high school has been when she has suddenly blossomed into her own confident, efficient and capable young woman. Instead of being hampered by backing off in schoolwork in the middle years, she has leapfrogged ahead now that she is developmentally ready for higher level thinking and work. She is driving the bus, though I am still providing some subtle steering and brakes at times. My high schoolers were encouraged to set goals, to outline (usually verbally) the steps to reach those goals. Sometimes they ended up tossing the goal halfway but in my opinion that was ok. It was their goal, not mine. The reality of our financial situation is that this goal setting and execution often included my children finding ways to fund their passions. While I wish that I could help out more, I actually think that this has been a benefit for them overall. edited to add some more information. Edited November 5, 2016 by Jean in Newcastle 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted November 5, 2016 Share Posted November 5, 2016 (It's hard to know since it's not like we can do controlled experiments with our kids.) So true!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Blue (6-9 years) We've recently come out of this stage. On the one hand, I'm tentative about making declarations; ;) on the other hand, I feel quite connected to it. These were wonderful years. We made many precious memories in this season. Perhaps the best thing I can say about these years, as pertains to an "ideal education," is that I am so, so thankful to have been able to homeschool our three daughters from the start. Way back in 1999, I came across this book in the public library. I had no kids, I wasn't even married, but that book started it all for me. Years later, married with three children, it was time to start homeschooling. In the beginning, our goal was to lay a solid foundation with reading, writing, arithmetic, work habits, faith formation, and general knowledge. The end of "3rd grade" for the twins seemed a long way off! And yet, the years went by, and we accomplished what we set out to do. More importantly, we did it with joy. I could write a list of "things to do" at this stage, but my best advice for parents here is to travel with joy in your journey. Children at these ages are so delightful, funny, and snuggly. They are curious and eager to please us. They will grow fast enough, soon enough. Why rush academic things? Why be "anxious over many things?" Some consistent work each day is sufficient. Finish it, then snuggle up and read. Let them be six, seven, and eight... missing teeth, warm breath, squishy. Why would we want it any other way? I liked this because it encapsulates my vision of childhood so well. It would have been my X for myself. Sadly, not my son's X. Why would he want it any other way? I have no answer other than to say he is his own person with his own idea of what is ideal. He has his own timeline for things and fighting it left the both of us sore and burned out. Some Xs are opposites or some other version of other Xs. And the cool thing is (but wouldn't work if SWB had said "imagine Y" instead lol) when you flip an X upside down, it is still an X. :laugh: 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Oh man, I'd been avoiding this thread but after a sleepless night with a puking child, I don't have the willpower to stay away. Oh no, I hope she is better! :grouphug: [...] That's one train of thought I've been travelling. The other is the whole question of boxes. My dd14 is a 9th grader, and we're grappling with the boxes. She has a passion, a specialty, and a desire to spend her time focused on that passion. I keep talking about keeping the options open, college entrance requirements, etc. This puts as at opposition for the first time since I started homeschooling her. I'm not sure how to look past those boxes. Unless we just skip high school altogether, as Quark's always inspiring posts make me consider. So, I will have to think on that: If we skip high school altogether, and plan to use the CC to essentially prepare dd for transfer to the college of her choice in the future, what would that X look like? It's not constraint free, but it's a lot less hemmed in than the current path. I am always drawn to your posts because I think you and I are alike in the things we want for our kids. I suspect your DD's X will look pretty awesome because (1) she is your kid (2) she will have incredible ownership of her very own X because her very capable, qualified, incredibly loving mom trusted her with it (3) she has had the preparation that many PS kids wouldn't have had. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 (edited) 2 I managed to give two very different children approximately the same education - one more liberal artsy and one engineery, one who picked up academics easily and one who is wired such that learning something in an academic way is not natural or easy (although appealing to him for its efficiency sometimes). We chose not to unschool because it is a huge amount of work for the facilitator and I didn't have the resources. In the ideal education, I would still choose not to unschool completely because it seems like difficult things done at a high level require a ton of practice and most children need an adult to lend them the self-discipline required to get through the hard patches. I would be afraid that even when that self discipline comes naturally to a child through a natural ability combined with an enduring obsession, and the child does manage to achieve that high level in a particular area, the child does not necessarily develop the general self discipline needed to get to that level in other areas in order to achieve a less immediate goal. I could be wrong about that. I am talking about an ideal education for my own, just-brightish, pretty ordinary children, though, not profoundly gifted ones. I think a good question to add to your list would be, "Why would you not completely unschool?" (Or maybe you did? I can,t remember.) So - I would still "do school" in my ideal. We would have a schedule of things to do because my family, including me, need to know when the hard boring things are going to be over. And it sets a good example of how to do something hard. I would start with educational non-negotiable skills (like learning to read and math) based on what I want my children to be like as adults, and work on those things first thing in the morning winter, spring, and fall. (For my family, summer is a time to run wild and free. Or sail. Tons of lessons learned then but not academic ones, ideally.) After the hard, more structured stuff, I would have a period of protected time when the children could work on acquiring content and working on their own educational projects. I would leave much of the choice of content up to them, but include some required reading, mostly overviews, to give them some breadth and feed them the possible interests. Then they would be free to do their own things. Be back later for more specifics. Nan Edited November 6, 2016 by Nan in Mass 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 (edited) 2 I managed to give two very different children approximately the same education - one more liberal artsy and one engineery, one who picked up academics easily and one who is wired such that learning something in an academic way is not natural or easy (although appealing to him for its efficiency sometimes). We chose not to unschool because it is a huge amount of work for the facilitator and I didn't have the resources. In the ideal education, I would still choose not to unschool completely because it seems like difficult things done at a high level require a ton of practice and most children need an adult to lend them the self-discipline required to get through the hard patches. I would be afraid that even when that self discipline comes naturally to a child through a natural ability combined with an enduring obsession, and the child does manage to achieve that high level in a particular area, the child does not necessarily develop the general self discipline needed to get to that level in other areas in order to achieve a less immediate goal. I could be wrong about that. I am talking about an ideal education for my own, just-brightish, pretty ordinary children, though, not profoundly gifted ones. I think a good question to add to your list would be, "Why would you not completely unschool?" (Or maybe you did? I can,t remember.) So - I would still "do school" in my ideal. We would have a schedule of things to do because my family, including me, need to know when the hard boring things are going to be over. And it sets a good example of how to do something hard. I would start with educational non-negotiable skills (like learning to read and math) based on what I want my children to be like as adults, and work on those things first thing in the morning winter, spring, and fall. (For my family, summer is a time to run wild and free. Or sail. Tons of lessons learned then but not academic ones, ideally.) After the hard, more structured stuff, I would have a period of protected time when the children could work on acquiring content and working on their own educational projects. I would leave much of the choice of content up to them, but include some required reading, mostly overviews, to give them some breadth and feed them the possible interests. Then they would be free to do their own things. Be back later for more specifics. Nan Oh man, this - especially the bolded. This is a big part of why I hang on to some requirements even if they are not in passion subjects or don't seem directly relevant. Essentially, I want two things for my dds: I want them to have choices in their life, to not be trapped in a situation that makes them unhappy because they lack the skills and resources to change things, and I want them to have the self-discipline to put in the work to become good at the things that they love, and I want them to know that in life, you still have to do some things you don't love. You may do those things for love - my dh works a job he finds frustrating and tedious because he loves his family and wants to provide for us. A mother's life is full of doing things she doesn't love to do in service of the people she loves most in the world. That ability is essential to forming and maintaining the most satisfying relationships in a person's life, and I want my dds to be able to do those things, not because they have to, but because they choose to. OK, that was three things, and I don't know if it clarifies my X, but I will say that a big part of my X involves learning self-discipline and that to become truly skilled at something, you have to work at it, and the work isn't always fun. So no, X wouldn't be entirely delight-driven. It would involve developing the work ethic and self-discipline required to live a delightful life. I'm not talking about suffering for the sake of suffering or doing hard things just because it "builds character" - but the ability to have self mastery, to make choices and to stick with your choices even when it's hard to do so, that's priceless. Edited November 6, 2016 by Chrysalis Academy 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted November 6, 2016 Share Posted November 6, 2016 Some struggles here were if I insist on self discipline over say, Passion A, What do we lose if we choose to follow Passion A only? What do we gain? (we ended up unschooling writing and history for example, to give him more time for math and reading) What do we lose if we choose to promote more self discipline instead of Passion A? What do we gain? And at what cost to Passion A? (he would have probably become a more confident, more mature, more practiced writer but would have wilted from lack of math challenge) Would other skills and discipline areas come as a natural by product of developing discipline via Passion A? (his writing can be very mature at times I think in big part to how deeply he reads and all the proof writing practice; allowing the math challenge to proceed has led to good time management because he is now answerable to outside authorities he respects; delaying him might have affected his personality and our close relationship; he can still write well enough to do well in lit and humanities classes at the CC...he might get a B in midterm essays for example, but can pull himself up enough to hit an A for final grades) Is choosing decision X over decision Y showing my child that I trust him more or less? (I think he would have forgiven me anyway because he is a good kid...but I would have regretted it/ will be feeling lots of guilt) How does box checking factor into all of this? How many boxes does he want to check? And why are we being boxed in exactly? Can't we challenge those boxes? How many can we challenge? What do we lose by not checking those boxes? What do we gain by taking the risk? Regarding no 5, we are juggling a mix of risky things and safe things atm. And honestly, I have not been very successful at showing him that I trust him completely. I worry a lot at times and do nag at times. In the end though, I can't bear seeing him miserable. He's a naturally conscientious kid and this personality quirk really helps in our decisions but comes with its own problems too (anxiety that can be crippling when he thinks he does something against his conscience). I have decided though that his mental health is most important to me and our decisions are based very much on bolstering his ability to create his own happiness. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 It's commendable that you are looking for ways to encourage parents (who are in the box) to think outside the box. Any time we can encourage parents to consider what learning really is, that is a good thing to do. But I honestly think we need to talk about The Box. Preschool, Kindergarten, 1st Grade, 2nd Grade.... what comes next? Third Grade. General Science, Biology, Chemistry... what comes next? Physics. Pre-Algebra, Algebra 1, Geometry... what comes next? Algebra 2. We all know the right "answers," because we are products of The Box. The Box is the system that encourages a fairly shallow form of exposure to numerous subjects, mastery of almost nothing, and years of passive assignment acceptance. In that system, the "good students" are those who most willingly, capably, and punctually do what they're told to do by a higher authority. A few years ago, an (asthmatic) young relative of ours had bronchitis and missed three days of school. When he returned, he was told, "You have three days to make up all the missed work, plus keep up with your ongoing assignments." The valiant boy tried. He got pneumonia. He missed four days of school. When he returned, he was told, "You have four days to make up all the missed work, plus keep up with your ongoing assignments." The valiant boy tried. He nearly died (literally) in 11th grade, because The Box could only say what it was programmed to say. The Box had no interest in his very life, no interest in his (actual) learning, no concern for his health, no words of comfort or encouragement for his spirit, and no underlying environment of joy. IMO, at times it is brutal. I realize that this is simply our anecdotal experience with The Box. However, if it feels like a beast intent on chewing up your children, I suppose a person's natural inclination might be to fight it? Or avoid it? My personal answer to getting "outside the box" was to avoid it entirely and start from scratch. Edited to add: But the older my children get, the more concerned I become with the checklists and expectations of the system. Whether or not I "agree" with what those are -- and I don't entirely disagree, I just think blind adherence can be destructive and dehumanizing -- those expectations are with us, and our children are going out into that world someday. So they should be prepared for the world in which they will eventually have to function. I would encourage parents to look as far past the school calendar, school subjects, and school requirements as they possibly can, to the point where those things begin to be blurry and fade from view. Now, what do you see? Instead of years of putting in time and going through the motions, imagine your children learning and thriving. What does that look like? How do they learn? Imagine all of them as healthy as possible, as rested as possible, as content as possible, as joyful as possible. If a parent can imagine that, there is the place to begin. Next -- take that rested, healthy, content, and joyful child. Add reading. Read aloud, day after day. Add audiobooks. Listen to stories, day after day. Add narrations. Tell stories back, day after day. Add copywork, dictation, and math. That, plus play time and snuggles, is the basic day (for younger children, but also older children who need that foundation solidly laid). Do things together. Cooking, chores, games, puzzles, sports, exercise, pets, family time, travel, personal hygiene, gardening, yard work, crafting, hobbies, anything real (not so much virtual). Practice practical skills. Practice habits of productivity. Encourage parents to limit electronics (their own and their child's). Encourage family time and conversations. Encourage family worship, faith formation, and scripture reading. Talk about character traits and how to develop good habits. What builds general knowledge? Parents can incorporate reading, experiments, conversation, experiences, documentaries, travel, community service, and more into their routines as ways of growing their child's understanding of how the world works. What develops a child's appreciation of beauty? Parents can explore nature, art, music, dance, drama, architecture, and world cultures with their children. Even though we have plenty of breathing room here where we live, I still endeavor to create a rich and full life for our children, educational and otherwise. But I always come back to that basic foundation of health, rest, contentment, and joy. Parents who are already in the box don't need another checklist of things "to do" with their children, so much as encouragement to look beyond the checklists that are already dominating their lives. HTH. Wow. So very well said. I have been slowly reading my way through this thread for the past few days while trying to gather my thoughts to respond to SWB. This post (quoted above) really captures some key points, and puts into words things I hadn't found the words for (see the second bolding). Part of what I am struggling with regarding what SWB asked us to imagine is mentioned in the first bolding -- the expectations of the system, the world in which my kids must be able to function well enough to thrive. My brain is tired and my thinking muddied right now, so I won't try to expand on this thought further at the moment. I'll respond again later when I can be more articulate. I am having difficulties divorcing my imaginary ideal from any and all contact with "the system" simply because I know my kids will have to be able to navigate and operate in that system. However Sahamamama2's basic foundation of health, rest, contentment, and joy can be worked in regardless of whether one is in "the system" or inside any box. That is the key -- teaching ourselves and our kids how to establish such a foundation so we all can return to it again and again throughout our lives. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) The interesting thing about the bolded is that autonomy plays a key role in the development of competence, mastery and self discipline, at least according to self determination theory (which has reasonably good evidence for its utility). I actually see a lot of education as actively undermining autonomy - especially that which is undertaken due to having to tick the boxes. I personally struggle with this. I believe I could provide an education more encouraging of both autonomy and competence if I was freed from the legal obligation to tick certain boxes. Yes, I think you are right that much about the educational system undermines autonomy. Particularly doing things for no other reason than because they are required. But I also think that sometimes I do know better, simply because I've been around longer, been through the educational system, tried to construct work and paying jobs that allow for my passion, simply navigated life for longer. Is it undermining dd's autonomy to say "You may not understand the reason for _______ now, but it is something you will be glad you know how to do later in your life." It's an honest question. I always come back to the analogy of food and the young child - I can't let my younger dd eat only what she wants to, she'd live on sweets. I know that her body needs proteins and fats and vitamins and minerals to thrive, so I have to undermine her autonomy to some extent and insist that she make wider and better eating choices. While teaching her about how her body works and hopefully giving her the information that will lead her to make better choices in the future. Some struggles here were if I insist on self discipline over say, Passion A, What do we lose if we choose to follow Passion A only? What do we gain? (we ended up unschooling writing and history for example, to give him more time for math and reading) What do we lose if we choose to promote more self discipline instead of Passion A? What do we gain? And at what cost to Passion A? (he would have probably become a more confident, more mature, more practiced writer but would have wilted from lack of math challenge) Would other skills and discipline areas come as a natural by product of developing discipline via Passion A? (his writing can be very mature at times I think in big part to how deeply he reads and all the proof writing practice; allowing the math challenge to proceed has led to good time management because he is now answerable to outside authorities he respects; delaying him might have affected his personality and our close relationship; he can still write well enough to do well in lit and humanities classes at the CC...he might get a B in midterm essays for example, but can pull himself up enough to hit an A for final grades) Is choosing decision X over decision Y showing my child that I trust him more or less? (I think he would have forgiven me anyway because he is a good kid...but I would have regretted it/ will be feeling lots of guilt) How does box checking factor into all of this? How many boxes does he want to check? And why are we being boxed in exactly? Can't we challenge those boxes? How many can we challenge? What do we lose by not checking those boxes? What do we gain by taking the risk? Regarding no 5, we are juggling a mix of risky things and safe things atm. And honestly, I have not been very successful at showing him that I trust him completely. I worry a lot at times and do nag at times. In the end though, I can't bear seeing him miserable. He's a naturally conscientious kid and this personality quirk really helps in our decisions but comes with its own problems too (anxiety that can be crippling when he thinks he does something against his conscience). I have decided though that his mental health is most important to me and our decisions are based very much on bolstering his ability to create his own happiness. Rich food for thought as always, quark. I guess I hope that I'm asking for the development of self discipline *and* following passions. Not choosing one over the other. If my dd has to spend 3 hours a day on required subjects, she still has 9 hours a day to do what she likes. Maybe I'm asking her to be more self disciplined in the use of her "free" time - I'm doing my part by keeping requirements to the minimum, but if she uses her free time to watch Dr. Who instead of work on her novel, well, then, that's a choice. Maybe what needs to change is not me reducing that 3 hours further, maybe it's making different choices with the other hours of the day. That trust thing is huge. But I still go back to the fact that part of my job is to teach tools & skills for self-mastery so that dd can be relatively free from control by habits and appetites to make good choices for herself. Can trust herself to work in her own best interests. I don't always trust myself to make good choices, I have bad habits that undermine my health and happiness and success. Can I trust dd but still think she needs guidance to learn to make better choices? Edited November 7, 2016 by Chrysalis Academy 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted November 7, 2016 Author Share Posted November 7, 2016 So many good points! Thinking about it further... I'm curious to know more details about who the audience is and in what way the OP is hoping to encourage them. Is the intended audience people who aren't home educators, but who want to be? Is it to encourage them to pull their kids from school? To encourage them to be creative with after-school opportunities? To encourage students to drop out of school? ;) Maybe if a clearer picture of the audience and goals were given, answers would change. (It could be that I just missed this info somewhere.) Knowing the next step in the thought experiment would be helpful. Step 1. Parents develop a list, which may include multiple impossibilities. Then what? Is there a dramatic reveal which magically makes them all possible? ;) Aha, the dramatic reveal--that's the trick, right? :001_unsure: I wanted to answer this, but I don't want to derail the current discussion, so please keep talking... I don't think you all realize how outside-the-box you're all already thinking. I am so often asked--on airplanes, at publishing sales conference, at the library, in line at the grocery store, for crying out loud--"What do I do with my unhappy/failing/underachieving/bored/gifted/etc. child?" And as I try to answer the question I realize that the parent has NO comprehension that there is any way to do school except in twelve years, divided into grades, with SATs and college at the end. Seriously, it's like trying to describe a sound using only color words to get them to understand that it doesn't have to be that way. And many home educators are stuck in the same set of dividers. I think the longer you do it and the more comfortable you become, the more you realize that the molds are an illusion, but it's still so difficult to shape the education to the kid rather than the other way around. I would say that my parents did a pretty good job of this, actually, but looking back, I'm seeing the ways in which my most out-of-the-box learner could have been much better supported and served by me. (Of my four, I have two "propositional thinkers" and two "procedural thinkers." I really did struggle with my older "procedural" kid. I think I'm doing a much better, more honest job with Procedural Thinker #2. Yes, older children, you ARE the practice kids. Sorry about that.) (In case you're now wondering, none of this is a repudiation of TWTM in ANY way. I feel like I've spent the last fifteen years say, "Guys, it's a PATTERN. You adapt it as necessary.") So, I told Norton I wanted to do a companion volume to TWTM that helped parents take insights from home schooling and apply them to take charge of their kids' education, whether or not they were full time "home educators." It incorporates much of the teaching material I've developed in my live workshops over the last decade and a half, but also tries to offer a more comprehensive vision for what education is supposed to develop in our kids -- as human beings, not just as students. Whether this is going to fly or not, I have no idea. It's just something I've been wanting to do for a very long time. By the way, my editor at Norton said, "Fine, but I want this book to be ridiculously anecdotal." (Meaning that he didn't want another 250K word academic tome. :bored:) I've been collecting parent stories for a long time, but I'll probably be messaging some of you who've posted on this thread for permission to quote, because I think the experiences and wisdom shared here are truly extraordinary. SWB P.S. "Molds" is Sam Sherratt's vocabulary: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrysalis Academy Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Susan, thanks for sharing your plans, and the video. Best of luck on this project, I hope Norton goes for it! The support, advice, and encouragement I've received here in this community give me the courage to try to break the mold (or mould ;) ) and create something different for my family. I'm deeply appreciative of your work, which led me to this community, and for all the fellow travelers I've met here. You all make the journey feel more doable. :cheers2: 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quark Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I have goosepimples. Susan, this is such a powerful opportunity. Very excited to see where this project will go. And thank you for sharing about your DC too. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Governess Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 My kids are both heavily involved in extracurriculars... although I don't really consider them extras. ;) One is a competitive gymnast, the other is an aspiring ballerina. We homeschool for academic reasons, but also for flexibility in scheduling so they can take advantage of daytime training opportunities, and so we can actually spend time with each other in the midst of their busy schedules. Through the years, I have discovered that these "extras" are shaping them as people in very important ways, and are actually helping them be more focused students as well. Kids need to be physically involved in their world, not just mentally, and this is something that gets overlooked in traditional schooling. They are more than just little minds. One book that had a profound influence on me was Poetic Knowledge by James Taylor. It discusses the fact that our society has placed so much value on scientific knowledge and disregarded other ways of knowing that don't include the regurgitation of facts and data. My kids are gaining scientific knowledge, but they are also gaining poetic knowledge by learning a physical art form, and by other activities that we emphasize in our homeschool: reading and talking about great stories; traveling and actually experiencing other cultures and being immersed in places where history happened; learning how to play instruments; making handcrafts; caring for animals; cooking.... these activities are a huge part of their development and are at least equal in importance to the accumulation of content and academic skills. We are a highly academic family, but I have learned that academics is just one part of a larger whole. Homeschooling gives us the flexibility to prioritize accordingly. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I have a book to recommend as well. "Strong-willed child or dreamer" by Dana Spears. This was recommended to me by someone on this board - Alte Vista, I believe. I knew that something was wrong with my approach when my child was crying tears of frustration because she wanted to obey me in school but just couldn't. I knew then that something had to bend and it wasn't her. This wasn't a matter of a learning disability but a difference in how she learns versus how most subjects are presented. Now at 14, she has the mental flexibility to learn in both the standard way and her whole-to-parts way, but it took her more time to get to that point. I do not use a child-led approach but I do use a child-thoughtful approach where I really try to put myself in their shoes and do ask for their input. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Susan, Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It will be interesting to see how the project develops. Freedom and breaking out of molds (I think Charlotte Mason used the term sausage machine) is all well and good when something is still being carved/shaped/painted/nurtured. What gives me pause is the frequency with which the ideas of freedom and breaking out of molds are translated into what, in the end, results in not doing enough for the child's long term well-being. The pendulum swings both ways. It brings my thoughts back to the discussion of trust. I'm not sure which is more heart-wrenching to watch: the mother in tears because she realizes she didn't give enough academic freedom or the mother in tears because she gave too much. This mothering business is not for the faint of heart. (Neither is the project Susan is undertaking.) Liquid courage for us all. :cheers2: (Liquid courage, much like education, can take many forms. Make mine a spiced apple cider and quark's a hot chocolate or root beer. ;) ) 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bookbard Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Ah, ok, Well, one of my suggestions would be a chapter or something on family culture. Really understanding what your family culture is - we read in our family, we make in our family, we find things out in our family, we spend time outdoors in our family - knowing that with all education, what you do is far more powerful than what you say. I think that education quite naturally flows from this. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 One thing I see missing from the list is a realistic assessment of what kind of time and energy the parent means to devote to the education of the child/children. To me, figuring the ideal also involves figuring out what the ideal looks like for the parent. I know that I'm a much happier teacher when I have the time in my day to treat my own passions and goals for my continuing education with the same kind of care I put toward the planning of the day for my children. When I do that, I come to the table energized and ready to share my enthusiasm for the material. I can have the best ideal day for the boys, but if I don't take care to be well rested, prepared, and excited about at least one thing during the day, that's going to come across the table and get into that ideal day like a fly in a spider's web. I would love to see the ideal education reflect what ideal looks like for the parent as well as the student. I just feel like the ideal learning place "X" has that parent factor that often gets overlooked when planning an education experience. Hear hear. This is part of what I'm trying to find the words to express -- my ideal would have to take into account the entire household, as well as extended family and the surrounding community. It isn't even simply a matter of the teaching parent also being counted in the planning of the ideal -- though that is of vital importance -- there must also be a way to pick up the pieces and keep going if for some reason the teaching parent can't continue temporarily or permanently. Even when everything works according to plan the education of the children affects the entire family and those who associate with them, and they in return affect the education of the children. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Does anyone remember the thread about an outside the box year for a kid? I can't find it right now or I would link to it. [2016-2017 Out-of-the-Box Thread] That thread is what I thought of when I read the OP. It would look so very different for each kid. For example, my eldest would do math of all kinds (except perhaps traditional geometry), study history through music, read for hours, and learn at least eight languages. The only writing she would do would be in those foreign languages (because she hates writing but strangely doesn't mind it if she's doing it in Spanish). There might not be any science in her education except as part of her math studies. My next kid would spend her afternoons drawing while listening to audio books. Each morning, she would either be working on writing a new book or editing an existing one. All her spelling and grammar learning would be through that editing. Her science would revolve around animals and nature through her sketch work or audio books. Her knowledge of history would be through audio books and research for her children's books. She would learn no (more) math if she could get away with it. See how very different these educations look? Child #4 would be building, exploring, and visiting as his interests led him. Lots of animals and robotics and science- learning the math as needed on the way. Everything would be done for the purpose if his interests, so it would be worthwhile to him and done well because he wants to know those things. We would be in the car a lot, talking to people in the fields of interest with hands on animal adventures and working in the labs where Mars rovers are being built or monitored. Come to think of it, our first year of homeschooling had a lot of my ideal elements to it. For us it was quite radically outside-the-box at the time, since we were switching from brick & mortar school to homeschooling. No tests, or tests only as a tool to assess. No grades. I assessed directly, through working with the kids and watching how they learned. Grades were meaningless, since we could spend however long we needed to master something required, and could simply move on on topics that weren't necessary and proved to be less interesting than they promised to be. Little in the way of time limits. I did put limits on our days and after a while I did start giving some deadlines (both kids, like me, will simply stall out or work on something forever if there are no deadlines to meet), but they were always done with where each of us was at the time, never just arbitrarily declared. Room in the time and money budgets to shift plans dramatically if needed, desired, or if an opportunity arose and we wanted to take advantage of it. Attention paid to how each of us (yes, me as well as the kids) actually learns, and studies tailored to how each learns. Down time. Unstructured time. Time to actually play, and notice, and ponder. Plenty of rest, plenty of good food and the time to eat it and digest it. A massive drop in stress (from our brick & mortar school days). This was vital, as one of my dc doesn't learn well in a classroom setting, and the stress was killing both her and me. She has walked in her sleep twice in her life, and both were due to stress over school and the school environment. Since we started homeschooling she sleeps well and soundly. Since we are not competitive people (though some of our extended family are) removing comparisons of each child to anyone else also helped matters greatly. Our kids are free to be our kids, and to be seen as themselves, not how they measure up to anyone else. We measure ourselves against our past selves only. Exploration. We took monthly field trips, and road trips with side trips to explore more. Outside time, even during the time of year I (Mom) tend to stay inside a lot due to not handling heat well. Flexibility. At my first (very small) high school there were only 2 students in my particular German class. When one of us was out sick Sister didn't hold class as usual, instead she and the attending half of the class would simply converse (in German as much as possible), and chat about German customs, places, whatever. We would simply resume class and carry on when all were back together again. I decided this is the way our homeschool would be -- having the flexibility to simply accommodate one of us being sick and unable to school on any given day. Shorter school days, and shorter school weeks. Since we didn't have to worry about daily school commutes or travel between classrooms or waiting for a group of people to all be ready we could focus more quickly and readily on the studies at hand. To save further time we consolidated our school days into 4 days a week to leave 1 weekday each week open for appointments, errands, shopping, catch-up time, field trips, or just plain fun and downtime. By reserving Fridays for these purposes we worked more readily through the rest of the week. We also had periodic (at least 2 a year) "bonus" Fridays, when we had a 5th Friday in a month. Those were reserved for pure fun. Part of me would like to add an unrealistic element to my ideal -- having an entirely supportive extended family because it can get downright tiresome explaining the same thing over and over and over again. However, I also realize that there have been certain advantages to have extended family with hesitations and misgivings -- because these people matter to me I actually put more conscious thought into WHY as well as HOW I handle homeschooling, so I can better explain to them why we have chosen this path. This deliberate entertaining of opposing viewpoints has actually helped me think my way through some of our challenges and make a decision when too many choices threatened to bog me down in planning. Besides, it's also gratifying to come up with a complimentary comeback from time to time. Doubting family member: "Oh, I don't think I could ever handle educating my own kids. It would drive me crazy." Me: "I know you better than that! If the school options at hand weren't working for your children and you decided home education was the best way to ensure they received the education they need you most certainly WOULD make it work! You are quite resourceful that way!" Which she really is, so HA! Take THAT! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Ooh. Interesting. My first thoughts in terms of questions were things along the lines of... How much is child led (or child influenced by the parent/teacher/societal assessment of the child's individual needs) vs. how much is top down or predecided? In other words, how much is education tailored to the child? That interplay interests me a lot. Also (and someone else mentioned something along these lines)... what values take precedence in this education? As in, happiness or enjoyment or independence or academic excellence? And do the values change depending on the child's needs or age? I guess I'm trying to say... what's the primary end goal? Is it self-sufficiency, happiness, something else? Detaching that from "getting into college" or "getting a job" is - to me - one of the hardest things about this thought experiment for people. When I've talked to people about values and education, they literally cannot get beyond that much of time. Hmm... thinking about the answers is too big... maybe I'll say more... Hmm, values.... Love of learning. Insatiable curiosity (I AM the Elephant's Child!). Foster this, and Sahamamama's core of healthy and joyous. These are foundational -- without them the best-laid education will fail a person. With them a person can build, even if his/her education lacks expected elements or life conspires to throw him/her off-kilter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I have to say, even as a parent who has given considerable thought to educational theory and who read TWTM a decade before my first child was even born, this thought experiment has been every difficult and overwhelming. My main goal for my children is to be functional, well-rounded adults who find fulfilling niches in their families and communities, but I have accepted that the path they take to get there, or not get there as the case may be, is largely out of my control. I cannot possibly imagine an ideal education, because my parenting and educating are constantly evolving to better meet and support the child's current interests and goals and limitations. Take something as simple as "X has to equip your child to read, write, and understand maths." Great in theory, but in reality, there will always be some children who can't, or choose not to, be part of the great conversation. There will be some children who will never truly understand math, some who will be brilliant artists who struggle to read a newspaper, some who will devour academics and be forever searching for the next challenge and some who will have such a drive for independence that they simply rebel against everything you try to teach them. And, of course, most children will be a little bit of a million things, and will change day to day and year to year. Today, my oldest's ideal education would not include any travel because his severe anxiety makes that a torturous experience. But tomorrow, and every day for the next 11 years, I will reassess. I guess in the end, I can't imagine my child's ideal education, because 1) I acknowledge that most paths will lead to successful outcomes...maybe not the one I envisioned for the child, but perhaps more worthwhile for being the one they envisioned, 2) I suspect that the prime determiner of a child's education will be the child's own personality and free will and not my plans or choices and 3) I accept that my child's ideal anything is an unfathomable moving target, and all I can really do, every time we come to a fork in the road, is to use every ounce of instinct and love and experience I have to act in what, I hope, is their best interest. Sorry, I don't think that answered your question. Wendy Actually I think this is a very good answer. I agree with it quite a lot, too. It also puts me in mind of one of my friends from college. At the time he was getting his PhD in theoretical math, doing incomprehensible (to me) things with matrices and getting a number of accolades for his ingenuity. Yet he simply COULDN'T balance a checkbook because that was arithmetic, and he LOATHED arithmetic. His wife handled all of the family finances. Now I have a child who doesn't like arithmetic, yet grasps advanced math concepts quite easily. *sigh* I wish I was still in touch with that friend of mine.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 The Myth of the Garage by Chip and Dan Heath (free on Kindle) offers a different perspective on thinking outside the box. So don't think out of the box. Go box shopping. Keep trying on one after another until you find the one that catalyzes your thinking. A good box is like a lane marker on the highway: It's a constraint that liberates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie_0801 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 I don't think you all realize how outside-the-box you're all already thinking. I am so often asked--on airplanes, at publishing sales conference, at the library, in line at the grocery store, for crying out loud--"What do I do with my unhappy/failing/underachieving/bored/gifted/etc. child?" And as I try to answer the question I realize that the parent has NO comprehension that there is any way to do school except in twelve years, divided into grades, with SATs and college at the end. Seriously, it's like trying to describe a sound using only color words to get them to understand that it doesn't have to be that way. Funny you should say this. I've been doing a wee bit of research lately and found in my very small sample population that there are really no differences in the after-schooling habits between those who think getting their kids educated is their responsibility and those who think it is the school/government's. It's not all remediating struggling students either. I had wondered if the cult of the expert would somehow discourage parents from being that actively involved, but it seems not. They just don't tell the "experts" what they are doing and don't have "after-schooling" in their vocabulary. It was almost enough to make me think I ought to do a Masters to find out more details... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YaelAldrich Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Are here any cultures and societies, ancient or modern, real or fictional, (since we are thinking outside the box) that have the educational system or aspect of that system which rings true and changes how one looks at education? How can that be worked into the educational journey of the family and child? We are Orthodox Jews and have tried to meld the classical educational philosophy of the Torah and the Jewish people as we understand it to the WTM neo-classical educational model. I have a slide presentation that I created for our Torah Home Education conferences, but it is the kind of presentation that needs to be heard (my slides have lots of pictures and few words). The Pirkei Avos (a part of our Oral Law) says that children of five learns Chumash (the Torah), in those days orally; a child of 10 learns Mishnah (our Oral Law); at 13 he becomes an adult, held accountable for all the laws of Judaism, at 15 he learns Talmud (the Oral Law redacted through generations of rabbis). This roughly parallels the three levels in Classical education. So the Torah seems to understand that children go through changes in understanding and our teaching should follow those. Torah and Jewish Law give the mitzvah (commandment) to each father to teach his children. The formal education system, over 2000 years old, was created because greater numbers of Jewish boys (girls were not mandated to learn formal Jewish texts at that time) did not have fathers who could teach them due to unrest and breaks in the oral transmission system. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hmm for me I think life skills first. Before you learn anything hugely academic you learn how to prepare a few basic meals, how to grow food and how to make some simple clothes. I feel like it's easier to get a bigger picture of history when you have an understanding of this stuff, because so much of history is driven by competition for the resources to do them. Basic reading instruction can start when kids seem interested and develop organically from a lot of time in the family being read to. For so much of the other stuff I feel like it would be awesome if they could learn the stuff they were interested in from safe adults who are passionate about the subjects. I love books but I feel like they are not really a substitute for a really involved teacher. Not someone who has trained to be a teacher specifically but adults who are experts in their field and are willing to invest time in kids to help them get there. I do see some of this in the homeschool community but not always enough. I also feel like it involves a lot of time outdoors though I'm not totally sure in what context. Partly hiking and exploring for nature study and science but partly productive work as well? I think really education is a culture passed on through families more than something disciplined or instilled through schools. But I think the way society runs would have to be completely restructured to actually make that work in any meaningful way. Everything is very segregated now which makes it hard for real life learning opportunities to occur. Even field trips often have very canned educational outcomes attached. After a morning of practical life focus and outside play I'd see the afternoon as more dedicated to acquiring paper based real life skills. Maths to deal with finances and weather reports, dates and calendars. Basically applied maths. English to achieve good communication conventions oral and written. And then time to dedicate to a specific area of higher knowledge passion or interest - art, more pure math, science, music, dance, literature, drama. No necessity for everyone to do all of them but everyone to have something. Then the evenings would be for reading and general knowledge activities - history, science etc. as the kids get older they stay up later and are able to pursue these areas in more depth. Foreign language - I'm not totally sure about this. I feel like what we do in primary school is a box checking exercise. I don't know that I'd require foreign language but I'd want to take advantage of opportunities if actual native speakers were around to teach it. If we did do it Id love to see it done on an intensive way as a lead up to a trip to the country where the language is spoken rather than in a decontextualised kind of way it is most often done. I really love this. But in my mind it competes with seeing the beauty of traditional academic subjects. I truly believe that there is nobility and worth - and genuine joy - in studying things like higher maths, grammar, literature, science concepts and history. This tension is very characteristic of our homeschool! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 (edited) I really love this. But in my mind it competes with seeing the beauty of traditional academic subjects. I truly believe that there is nobility and worth - and genuine joy - in studying things like higher maths, grammar, literature, science concepts and history. This tension is very characteristic of our homeschool! I definitely have this tension as well. For me I've noticed in various traditional societies or even our own older society where there is still a lot of physical work to be done that kind of work happens in the morning and early afternoon while the more academic subjects happen later in the afternoon and evening as family time and rest and relaxation. Other than the elite who really have the freedom to spend all day in intellectual subjects. My kids are still in the early years so obviously things will shift as they grow older but at this stage it works well for us to have outdoor time and work on practical skills in the early part of the day then move to the intellectual stuff later in the afternoon when they are less wriggly. It also works with our climate that tends to be less than ideal for any time outdoors in the afternoons for around six months of the year. They seem to be more engaged and focused and learn just as much in an intense afternoon session than a gentle all day engagement in academics. I definitely understand about the tension. I think reading about the cultural revolution in China definitely helped define for me some of the issues with a purely practical approach to life without the higher arts etc. I guess many societies have dealt with the tension by placing all of the physical work on lower class members and leaving the elites free to focus on academics. Personally I think society and individuals are healthier where there is a healthy balance of both but of course that's hard to achieve in our real world. Edited November 7, 2016 by Ausmumof3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) Aha, the dramatic reveal--that's the trick, right? :001_unsure: I wanted to answer this, but I don't want to derail the current discussion, so please keep talking... I don't think you all realize how outside-the-box you're all already thinking. I am so often asked--on airplanes, at publishing sales conference, at the library, in line at the grocery store, for crying out loud--"What do I do with my unhappy/failing/underachieving/bored/gifted/etc. child?" And as I try to answer the question I realize that the parent has NO comprehension that there is any way to do school except in twelve years, divided into grades, with SATs and college at the end. Seriously, it's like trying to describe a sound using only color words to get them to understand that it doesn't have to be that way. And many home educators are stuck in the same set of dividers. I think the longer you do it and the more comfortable you become, the more you realize that the molds are an illusion, but it's still so difficult to shape the education to the kid rather than the other way around. I would say that my parents did a pretty good job of this, actually, but looking back, I'm seeing the ways in which my most out-of-the-box learner could have been much better supported and served by me. (Of my four, I have two "propositional thinkers" and two "procedural thinkers." I really did struggle with my older "procedural" kid. I think I'm doing a much better, more honest job with Procedural Thinker #2. Yes, older children, you ARE the practice kids. Sorry about that.) (In case you're now wondering, none of this is a repudiation of TWTM in ANY way. I feel like I've spent the last fifteen years say, "Guys, it's a PATTERN. You adapt it as necessary.") So, I told Norton I wanted to do a companion volume to TWTM that helped parents take insights from home schooling and apply them to take charge of their kids' education, whether or not they were full time "home educators." It incorporates much of the teaching material I've developed in my live workshops over the last decade and a half, but also tries to offer a more comprehensive vision for what education is supposed to develop in our kids -- as human beings, not just as students. Whether this is going to fly or not, I have no idea. It's just something I've been wanting to do for a very long time. By the way, my editor at Norton said, "Fine, but I want this book to be ridiculously anecdotal." (Meaning that he didn't want another 250K word academic tome. :bored:) I've been collecting parent stories for a long time, but I'll probably be messaging some of you who've posted on this thread for permission to quote, because I think the experiences and wisdom shared here are truly extraordinary. SWB P.S. "Molds" is Sam Sherratt's vocabulary Lots of thoughts, but not quite sure how to summarize them into a post. I think one thing you are observing is the convergence of a standardized testing mentality meeting college-ranking obsession intersecting with a weaker economy. Parents want "the best" for their kids. Best, unfortunately, is often interpreted as being encapsulated by testing assessments, creating the perfect "applicant" for college (grooming from a young age), and everything pursued academically and "extracurricularly" is pursued with a glance toward checking off those college admission boxes. Whenever "elite" admissions comes up, the mantra is APs are superior to DE, developing leadership skills, prepping for high test scores. etc, b/c that is what it takes.. The sense you get is that your child will less desirable, suffer the consequences, or be doomed to be "less than" if they don't have that perfect resume designed with yrs of intent that hones in on those desired, recruited traits and attend a tippy top university. Those admission's checklists are very "standardized" and conform around what classes have AP exams, SAT subject tests, GPA weighting, etc. In school, class rank and the impact of every single class on GPA is scrutinized. It is such a dominating mentality that if you wade into sites like College Confidential without confidence in your educational objectives/philosophy, you will be overwhelmed into thinking that the avg student is doomed to failure and the only colleges that will admit them have diplomas worthy of only a cracker jack box prize. The undercurrent for "elite" bound admissions is that APs are required and that not conforming means zero chances of admissions. I agree that if you want the proved path, you should follow the one everyone else takes. It is the one that is expected. But, my dd was willing to take a risk and be 100% true to herself; her POV is that she can't know if she doesn't try. But....it is the path unknown. It is the path most people can't (in a school system with classes being controlled, few options do exist) or won't take b/c it is unknown. My dd is willing to forge her own way no matter where it means she ends up b/c she wanted to do it this way. It was a deliberate decision. If it limits her options, she is content with the fact that she limited them herself by her choices. So far every encounter she has had with admissions has been positive. She found out her own ways of validating her accomplishments that matter to her and admissions so far has been receptive. (And, yes, her goals are encapsulated in "attending college." Her goals require advanced degrees, so yes, it is the beaten path at the end of homeschooling.) Philosophically, there are homeschooling "movements" that do encapsulate some of your ideas. Maybe reading through some of their different POV might help you pull out the parts you identify with while rejecting the parts that veer from the direction you are thinking. FWIW, I think homeschooling becoming a commercialized industry with the focus on curriculum has steered contemporary homeschooling more toward conforming to school at home standards. It is the part of me that rebels against the elite or bust mentality b/c I don't homeschool to replicate what happens in schools. I homeschool to create something different for my kids. I am 100% geared toward academic excellence for my kids and challenging them to reach their highest potential. This isn't about opting for less academics or lower standards. Where I diverge is how what we do needs to be defined and evaluated in order to "check the required" admissions boxes. I have run out of time and don't have time to re-read. I don't know if what I wrote even makes any sense to anyone other than me. This is a very "in the thick of it" process for me since my dd is a sr, so these thoughts have been whirling through me head quite a bit. Edited November 8, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
idnib Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 The Pirkei Avos (a part of our Oral Law) says that children of five learns Chumash (the Torah), in those days orally; a child of 10 learns Mishnah (our Oral Law); at 13 he becomes an adult, held accountable for all the laws of Judaism, at 15 he learns Talmud (the Oral Law redacted through generations of rabbis). This roughly parallels the three levels in Classical education. So the Torah seems to understand that children go through changes in understanding and our teaching should follow those. Islam has a similar idea. Highly paraphrased: Be your child's parent for the first 7 years, teacher for the next 7 years, and friend for the next 7 (and presumably after that.) It could be translated into play/parenting/character for the first 7 years of a child's life, education/logic for the ages 8-14, and mentorship/apprenticeship until ~21. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 I think one thing you are observing is the convergence of a standardized testing mentality meeting college-ranking obsession intersecting with a weaker economy... I posted in a thread about my dd not taking APs or DEing. The undercurrent from "elite" bound was that APs are required and that not conforming means zero chances of admissions. I agree that if you want the proved path, you should follow the one everyone else takes. It is the one that is expected. I think that if we had coffee we'd be kindred spirits, but let me just react to these TWO things you said in this excellent post: 1) I wish I'd said that. 2) None of my older three children took any AP, SATII, or other advanced standardized tests. This was not from want of my encouragement; it was from their reluctance to do so, and my (also reluctant) decision to abide by their wishes. While I'd still assert, as I've often said, that these tests tend to validate an otherwise unconventional home education in the eyes of college admissions officers (particularly in traditional schools), those older three children are flourishing, finding their own paths, and doing absolutely fine without them. SWB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 I think that if we had coffee we'd be kindred spirits, but let me just react to these TWO things you said in this excellent post: 1) I wish I'd said that. 2) None of my older three children took any AP, SATII, or other advanced standardized tests. This was not from want of my encouragement; it was from their reluctance to do so, and my (also reluctant) decision to abide by their wishes. While I'd still assert, as I've often said, that these tests tend to validate an otherwise unconventional home education in the eyes of college admissions officers (particularly in traditional schools), those older three children are flourishing, finding their own paths, and doing absolutely fine without them. SWB I agree. Chatting over coffee would be nice. :) In terms of testing, I know you know, but for clarifies sake I should specify that there is no way of avoiding some of it. Homeschoolers are going to have to submit some standardized test scores for admission into 4 yr universities. Some schools want more than others. Not validating everything with test scores can limit options. My current sr hates standardized testing. She only took the SAT once (and the PSAT once.) She took the math 2 and the Latin subject tests. At one point she was planning to apply to URichmond, but then she found out that they wanted additional subject tests in science and history, and she said no. Her choices have meant closing certain doors. But at another school she applied before she realized that they require the GED from homeschoolers. I contacted them as her GC and told them that if they were going to require her to submit a GED to please withdraw her application. They contacted us a few days later and told her she was not required to submit a GED. So there may be more flexibility than what is published on their websites, but I wouldn't take it for granted. This Dd has numerous regional, national, and international awards, so she outside validation of her accomplishments, they just aren't through College Board tests. It really comes down to long-term objectives and how willing your student is to being open to the consequences of their choices. I would certainly not stand on my soap box and tell my child they can't take APs or DE bc I want them to experience a different education. But, when you have a student like my Dd who clearly articulated her arguments for using high school as an opportunity to explore areas of intense interests in depth, I am absolutely willing to support that decision as long as it is an informed one. She knows. Her choice. Right now she really wants to be accepted into a program that only accepts 20 students per yr. She is more than qualified for the program, but whether or not they will recognize her non-traditional path, no telling until they make decisions. In the meantime, she has several options that are perfectly fine and affordable and she can make work if her other options don't come through. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan Wise Bauer Posted November 8, 2016 Author Share Posted November 8, 2016 Should clarify that they DID all take the regular SAT (and studied for it ahead of time, which I think is a prudent strategy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 I agree. Chatting over coffee would be nice. :) In terms of testing, I know you know, but for clarifies sake I should specify that there is no way of avoiding some of it. Homeschoolers are going to have to submit some standardized test scores for admission into 4 yr universities. Some schools want more than others. Not validating everything with test scores can limit options. My current sr hates standardized testing. She only took the SAT once (and the PSAT once.) She took the math 2 and the Latin subject tests. At one point she was planning to apply to URichmond, but then she found out that they wanted additional subject tests in science and history, and she said no. Her choices have meant closing certain doors. But at another school she applied before she realized that they require the GED from homeschoolers. I contacted them as her GC and told them that if they were going to require her to submit a GED to please withdraw her application. They contacted us a few days later and told her she was not required to submit a GED. So there may be more flexibility than what is published on their websites, but I wouldn't take it for granted. This Dd has numerous regional, national, and international awards, so she outside validation of her accomplishments, they just aren't through College Board tests. It really comes down to long-term objectives and how willing your student is to being open to the consequences of their choices. I would certainly not stand on my soap box and tell my child they can't take APs or DE bc I want them to experience a different education. But, when you have a student like my Dd who clearly articulated her arguments for using high school as an opportunity to explore areas of intense interests in depth, I am absolutely willing to support that decision as long as it is an informed one. She knows. Her choice. Right now she really wants to be accepted into a program that only accepts 20 students per yr. She is more than qualified for the program, but whether or not they will recognize her non-traditional path, no telling until they make decisions. In the meantime, she has several options that are perfectly fine and affordable and she can make work if her other options don't come through. In her case, her achievement with languages is clearly validated. I think making it to the language Olympiad team is worth a lot more than AP. I think for those of us who don't have kids who can achieve such honors, APs seem to be the fallback to demonstrate achievement. Trust me, if my kid was ever capable of making a math Olympiad squad, I would never consider APs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 In her case, her achievement with languages is clearly validated. I think making it to the language Olympiad team is worth a lot more than AP. I think for those of us who don't have kids who can achieve such honors, APs seem to be the fallback to demonstrate achievement. Trust me, if my kid was ever capable of making a math Olympiad squad, I would never consider APs. But making the international team didn't happen until this yr. She chose this path in 10th. She wouldn't have changed it even if she didn't have the awards that she does. Her decision was based on wanting to have the freedom to study subjects like fairy tales for literature, Russian history and communism in the 20th century for history, etc. Her course descriptions describe her studies in depth. Her awards are very lopsided and language focused. Ironically, French, her strongest language by far, has no awards. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodland Mist Academy Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 AP's have been mentioned, and I think it might be beneficial to take another look at them in the light of this thread. (I know many, most likely all, of us on this thread have examined and discussed AP's thoroughly in our own minds, with our teens, and on the boards. These comments are more for those who haven't quite crossed that bridge yet.) After reading many threads here and elsewhere, I had determined AP's would NOT be a path worth traveling. It seemed the current AP classes were bad news in so many ways. There were just too many cons. Guess who just sent emails to register a student for AP tests for the second year in a row? Me. What changed? There came a time when looking at all the possibilities and despite having so many excellent opportunities available, the paths that kept looking the brightest and most open were ones that included AP's. Deciding to take some AP classes and tests came about as a result of our thought experiment – not as a result of not undertaking one. I don't think anyone is advocating throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but sometimes when a parent just wants (needs) guidelines and some sort way to add structure to the madness, it can be tempting to make a rash decision to not investigate AP's because of other students' bad fits, philosophical objections, or negative experiences. So although AP's shouldn't necessarily be the default, not doing them probably shouldn't be the default either. Again, I'm not saying anyone is saying this. That doesn't mean no one is interpreting it that way. In the spirit of the thread, ideally there is no default. Not taking AP's doesn't doom a student to failure. Taking AP's doesn't mean a student is a mindless cog in a machine. Not taking AP's can be brave. Taking them can also be brave. (Many will go so far as to say that finding a place to take the exam is, in and of itself, an act of bravery.) Much like liquid courage and education, bravery and authenticity can take many forms. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 I agree, WMA. For my kids my goal is to not have an automatic answer one way or the other but to make decisions based on their thought through choices. For my current college student, APs and DE were the right choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aelgraham Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 Great thought experiment and fun to read everyone's ideas! With TWTM and Charlotte Mason, the ideal is to build our learning around great books. I want my kids to be able to think about what they're reading-- with the level/depth of thinking guided by their developmental stage. This sounds easy, but it's hard, especially since homeschoolers are continually challenged to provide something that they are still trying to attain for themselves. So... along those lines... my ideal would also include the parents. Training and equipping them in the big ideas, methods, and lines of questioning that make learning deep and rich. Along with this, my ideal homeschool would include an outside 'academy' of sorts that offered book discussions for each stage of the trivium, and for each historical period within these stages. So logic stage students would have a book discussion class for Ancients, Middle Ages, Early Modern, then Modern. Same for elementary (with maybe light discussion and the projects) and then High School. In fact, I'd love to see a homeschool academy of some kind that has all sorts of classes for the things that are hard to do solo, or just more fun to do in a group. I'm thinking nature study and art projects at the elementary stage. Science at the logic and rhetoric stages-- those experiments! Many parents need to outsource math or foreign language. Public speaking, drama. All those things that we piece together and spend hours driving to, but located in one place. I'd love to see a private school of sorts that you can tap in or out of, to the extent you need, but still have a rich school at home. I wish there were more meaningful social opportunities for kids. It's all so kid-centric and seems focused on keeping kids entertained. I think travel would definitely be a part of our ideal. We're studying the Vikings and Norse Myths and I'm longing to kayak the fjords and visit Iceland. Service. I'd love to find ways for us to be serving in unique ways. My daughter isn't old enough yet to be a 'homework buddy' at the library. I'd like to have us involved with something where we're working directly with kids who struggle to learn. I want my kids to meet and work with kids that are different from us. We are privileged and I see how much compassion and gratitude is created when kids see a bigger world. This has been one benefit I've appreciated from my son's public High School experience. Also, I wish we lived on a small farm. The suburbs are convenient but uninspiring, and often noisy. I think kids need important work to do. Laundry and dishes, dusting and vacuuming, mowing and weeding are all worthy and necessary, but having a few chickens, a garden... some quiet and beauty around us... I long for that. I'd love to see easier access to mentoring and apprenticeship opportunities. My son really needed some direction and outside work that wasn't a class, but I never had any idea how to make it happen. Hmmm.... I'll be thinking more about this.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nan in Mass Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 4 (i think) We did gymnastics for physical training. I wanted my children to learn that intense physical control. It cost a huge amount of money, down time, and family time. It has saved my children's lives upon occasion. We would do it again. My ideal education would include gymnastics team at a good gym with no commute starting at about 2 and going through about 15. (The commute was part of what made it hard.) i need to get the sit-down part of school out of the way first thing in the morning,, but what would have worked best for my children, I think, would have been to do gym first and then, when their bodies were worn out enough to sit still, do seat work. Music - we would do it every day, a combination of Orff and Kodally, in a class (so lots of harmony), working towards complete musical literacy, not just being able to sing. They would also study an instrument. Ensemble work outside music class would be optional. Nobody would be forced to be creative. The focus would be on skills. But everyone would be encouraged to play around with music and have fun. Art - Ditto about the creating. The little ones would just draw and play with art stuff. Then I would watch carefully, and when they showed signs of being dissatisfied with their drawing, which happened at about 8 or 9 for my children, I would teach the cartooning/drafting type drawing taught in Draw Squad, drawing from the imagination. Later, I would do a more grownup version of drawing class and teach drawing something you are looking at. Learning to draw would not be optional. It would be considered a communication form like writing, and assignments for other classes would include a mix of drawing and writing. We would do painting and sculpting also, but only the basics. The Klutz painting book was great for this, I think. Anything further would be optional. This would be taught at home, unlike music and gymnastics. Family time - well, my preference would be for a wild, free summer of time spent stuck someplace like on a small boat or camping, with lots of this weekends, too. Making music together, reading aloud, playing games, ... All important stuff. I think as the child grows, the child needs a bigger world. We did this by letting our children travel for months at a time with the Nipponzan Myohoji monks. In my opinion, this was ideal and covered many subjects in an applied way, but I certainly would not recommend it for all families or children. I would have something like this in my ideal education. I also would include classes and non-family teachers in my ideal education, for some subjects, so my children had a learning community to challenge them and inspire them, more for the social learners. I think mentors are important as well. I think ideally, the child would have mentors for their particular passions. Foreign language - at least one ancient and one modern. Ideally, the modern would be taught immersion style from birth and then used in school, not taught as a foreign language. You would do dictation in English one day and French the next, great books would be both, history in English one year and in French the next, or something like that. Immersion, travel, and a use for the language would be important.The ancient language would be taught in a more conventional way, but much more like in Europe, where they move to using the language in a real way more quickly. Nan 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 (edited) I've been thinking a lot about this topic.I'm not sure there is an ideal education, or even an ideal educational philosophy. When I read something like the Well Trained Mind that lays out a coherent philosophy and reasonable suggested course of study for 12 years or so, I can see that a path like that could result in an adult prepared for life.But it's almost a polar opposite of my own educational/developmental experience, a rich but extremely fragmented path that also produced adults very much prepared for life.Which makes me think--there is no best box, and boxes of any sort aren't necessarily required.Here's my story:My mom was an educator by training who felt that children should not be cooped up in classrooms at a young age. During my early years, we lived on a small family farm. I didn't go to school, neither did my mom provide any structured education at home. I had violin lessons and practicing was a daily ritual. We had lots of books in the house and both my parents read aloud to us regularly. We had family chores and as we were able helped with the farm. And I spent countless hours in imaginative play with my siblings. We waded in irrigation ditches, built cities in the sandbox, climbed trees, played on the coal pile in the shed, made dolls out of immature corn cobs and brushed their cornsilk hair with brushes made of spruce tree twigs, played with kittens, rode our bikes, ran barefoot through the fields. We didn't have a TV in the house, but did have a large collection of classical music on vinyl records.When I was 8 my mom figured I was old enough for school and enrolled me in the third grade at the local elementary school. I'd learned to read just that summer, though my mom had been trying to teach me off and on for several years. Once I started reading I took off, going from barely sounding out words to reading David Copperfield in a single year. I hadn't had much exposure to spelling or writing or written math before I started school but I caught up quickly. The next summer, our family's life changed dramatically as my dad took a job that had us moving first across the country, then just a few months later leaving the US entirely. I spent the next nine years living in five different countries on three different continents, attending seven different schools with three different primary languages of instruction.Fragmentation indeed. In terms of academic content, whole years at a time went over my head as I struggled to learn a new language. And then, there was no continuity of instruction from one school to the next. On the flip side of the coin, life was immensely rich with experience--living in and traveling through a significant portion of the world, learning languages, interacting with people from a wide variety of cultures and circumstances. At home, we still had lots of books and magazines, and that was where I did a lot of my learning. I'd just pick something that seemed interesting, whether it was Lord of the Rings or War and Peace or the Gaelic Wars in a Latin/English edition or The Economist or one of my mother's many science and math book of the month club acquisitions. Reading was my way of staying grounded in a constantly shifting world, of having something that was under my control.My last two years of high school were spent in an International Baccalaureate program at a private school in Europe. Those were challenging years as my 9th and 10th grade years in an entirely differently and much less rigorous educational system (on a different continent) had not at all prepared me for the rigor of the IB. I survived though, passed my exams, graduated, and moved back to the US on my own to attend college. I can't say my academic course up to that point was in any way ideal, certainly there were all kinds of gaps, but the transition to college wasn't any more of a challenge than any of the other numerous transitions I had been through.I'm not sure I can call what I experienced an education--certainly not in any traditional sense of a teacher passing a specified body of knowledge on to a student. But I grew and learned and experienced and was seemingly better prepared than many to make my way as an adult.With my own kids? I've never had any particular set educational path in mind. I try every year to give them what seems best to meet their mental, physical, social, and emotional needs at the time. I do keep basic skills in mind--they need to be able to read, to write, and to understand and manipulate numbers and mathematical relations. I'd like them to speak at least one foreign language. I'd like them to have the joy of artistic and physical pursuits in their lives, I'd like to cultivate curiosity and inquisitiveness and a sense of self in a large and fascinating world. I'd like them to develop compassion and a willingness to seek to understand the lives and experiences of others.I'm not too worried about a checklist of things to learn. There's way more to the world than could ever fit on a checklist. Edited November 9, 2016 by maize 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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