The child who can't go to sleep. Does it ever change?

[6packofun]

I just want to be off duty as mom before 11 p.m. every night.  I'm so tired of bedtime.  :(

 

Melatonin doesn't work anymore; too many bad dreams. Magnesium (product similar to Natural Calm) helps him STAY asleep, but 10yo doesn't get tired enough to drift off to sleep before 11. If there is any supplement with a slightly funny taste, it will not happen and he cannot swallow pills.

 

What was the next step after you feel like you tried everything?  This child is afraid of the dark STILL, shares a room with his 15yo brother who rarely gets a break but I can't give the sleepless child his own room!  We've tried more exercise, no screens 2-3 hours before bed, nature sounds, I always read before bed, I've even tried giving him massages but he's eh about that...what is left??  I've tried adjusting his bedtime for YEARS now to no avail.  What options can a pediatrician give me?

[TXBeth]

Is he getting enough sleep or is he still tired in the morning? Maybe he just doesn't need a lot of sleep; some people don't. If that's the case I would get him audiobooks and soft headphones and let him fall asleep whenever...but no getting out of bed after 9:00 (or whatever works for you).

If going to sleep at 11 is leaving him sleep-deprived, I'd consult a doctor.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scbusf]

A friend was telling me about Epsom salt baths. Apparently, the magnesium in the salt really helps.

 

My daughter struggles with anxiety and taking a long time to fall asleep is part of it. She is able to take a low dose of melatonin and a low dose of Prozac.

 

Have you tried essential oils? Diffusing a calming blend might help.

 

But I also think some people are just night owls and/or need less sleep than other people.

[happypamama]

Doctor can call for a sleep study to see if there is an underlying condition.

 

I have a child who has a really hard time turning everything off to fall asleep. Child has been like that since day one. Always has slept well once asleep. Even as a newborn, this child slept five to seven hours straight at night. But child has always been a night owl and has never been a good napper. Too hard to turn off the brain and go to sleep, even when child is exhausted. I think for some people, it's just wired into their system.

[Rebel Yell]

Ooooh. I have a child whose first full sense literally was "I doesn' like sleepin' !" but I think yours has mine beat.

 

She is still and early birdie and not a great sleeper. This is my child who cannot tolerate food dyes. Her sleep did improve after we eliminated all dyes (food, topical-soap, shampoo, toothpaste, etc.) but it was never great. Caffeine calms her, Benadryl keeps her awake for days. Have you considered if anything in his diet may be the cause of sleep issues?

 

Editing to add: for this child, herbal remedies and essential oils work like literal magic. Chamomile tea is like a tranquilizer, and inhaling the scent of lavender oil is like extra-tranquilizer. Which is weird because pharmaceutical medicines have opposite effects on her, while natural remedies do what they are supposed to.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Rebel Yell

[happypamama]

Oh yes, lavender oil on the pillow helps a bit too.

[frugalmamatx]

My pedi approved a low dose of benedryl for dd, to alternate with the melatonin. Have you tried playing with the melatonin dose? Sometimes my dd's bneeds tweaked a bit to stop the bad dreams - sometimes higher and sometimes lower. Also some brands seem to cause them worse too. 

[Guest]

When I was a kid, I slept every other night.  Just the way I was made.

 

My mom had a rule-set:

1.  Have to stay in bed.

2.  No electronics (which at the time was a transistor radio!!)

3.  Draw, read, write, whatever:  just stay in bed.  

4.  Get up in time for school without complaining.  

 

I'm (twitch) relatively (twitch) normal.  :0)  Still have sleep issues from time to time.  But fighting about it wasn't the path for my mom.  She just went to sleep.

[Kerileanne99]

I have two kids who do.not.sleep.

 

It is not uncommon for my six year old, for whom melatonin adjustment does help some, to wake up multiple times per night. She will sometimes read for 2-3 hours at a time on her kindle in the wee hours, or listen to a massive collection of audio books.

Our rule is, especially since all our beds are in the same room out of desperation, that you must be silent and stay in bed.

My 18-mo old seems to be following a frighteningly similar path.

I swear my Army training/experience in sleep deprivation is the only thing that has saved me😩

[Guest]

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Edited September 10, 2020 by Æthelthryth the Texan

[TeenagerMom]

I had one that Melatonin caused bad dreams also.  The only thing that ever worked to get him to fall asleep was prescribed Periactin.  We could adjust the dose up & down as need (we would start high and wean down). Usually after about 2 weeks, his sleep would straighten out.  BUT...anytime there was a season or time change, we had issues again.  Now he's 14 and I gave up. I think he goes to sleep around 12-1 a.m. and gets up around 9 a.m. usually.  Sometimes he sleeps much later. 

[KungFuPanda]

Have you looked into Valerian? It's easy to find and gentle. I only have experience using it to calm my anxious dog, but the difference was notable. The friend who suggested it is a vet tech, but she takes it herself as a sleep aid especially when her brain is spinning. It's worth looking into and it's safe and cheap to try. The capsules smell like a men's locker room, but there are other forms that are probably much easier to give to a person.

[Guest]

Have you looked into Valerian? It's easy to find and gentle. I only have experience using it to calm my anxious dog, but the difference was notable. The friend who suggested it is a vet tech, but she takes it herself as a sleep aid especially when her brain is spinning. It's worth looking into and it's safe and cheap to try. The capsules smell like a men's locker room, but there are other forms that are probably much easier to give to a person.

 

This is completely off topic, but how much do you give your dog? I have a doberman who freaks out over every storm and Rx sedatives always seem to backfire. I would love to try something else. I googled this and it mentioned is was a sedative an an antispomadic. What dose do you give and what weight is your dog? 

[abacus2]

My 12 year old was this way from birth. At some point I gave up on her sleeping and switched to "stay in bed and try to rest." Typically she is asleep by midnight. If she is still having trouble after that she can read a little while to settle down. 

[sbgrace]

We went to a children's hospital and met with a sleep disorder specialist. They worked with us to regulate my son's body clock essentially (dx sleep phase disorder).

For us they did a small (1/2 mg) dose of melatonin 4 hours before bed. This is to reset the sleep/wake cycle. My son does use 1 mg of melatonin before bed. But that afternoon dose did wonders for getting him on track. I still do it sometimes if he seems to be getting off track. They also gave us instructions to use a light machine in the morning. We didn't end up doing that because the afternoon melatonin reset things, but the light is used for the same reason.

 

You could try blue blocking glasses for evening. I use those with my son. They aren't enough on their own for him, but I do think they can help.

 

The sleep clinic also set us up with a behavioral psychologist who did lots of stuff--including training in progressive relaxation and similar behavioral approaches.

 

But, short answer, no--it didn't change without extensive intervention.

[KungFuPanda]

This is completely off topic, but how much do you give your dog? I have a doberman who freaks out over every storm and Rx sedatives always seem to backfire. I would love to try something else. I googled this and it mentioned is was a sedative an an antispomadic. What dose do you give and what weight is your dog?

My dog is a greyhound mix, so he's "big" but only weighs about 50 lbs. I was told to give him half a human dosage as listed on the bottle, then bump from there if necessary. He's at 2/3 a human dose because two capsules are easier than 1 1/2. I'm not one to just experiment with herbs and drugs, but I have a vet and a vet tech as dance students who come to my home studio and see my crazy dog regularly. They were so casual about saying "Give him more. It won't hurt him." He's still weird, but less insane when it storms.

 

Now, I would do more research before taking it or giving it to my kid, but that's my personal caution level . . . and it smells. My friend uses it in her house as casually as we use tums, but she's done her homework and is comfortable with it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My 14 year old was like this even as a baby.  He rarely slept.  At this point he is sleeping more than ever, but his sleep habits are wonky. 

 

What do I do?  Nothing.  I don't do bedtimes.  I don't insist on anything other than do whatever quietly past 9 pm.  I think I would have made myself crazy otherwise. 

 

I asked the doctor about it many times and that was useless.  Tried the Melatonin fairly recently (doc mentioned it and my kid was interested in trying it).  It didn't do much. 

 

If my kid was complaining about or acting tired I'd pursue it more, but that's not the case. 

[DawnM]

My 18 year old still doesn't sleep much.  But he no longer yells from the living room, "I'm all alone in here!  Someone come play with me!"   :lol:

 

Seriously, we had a lot of rough years.  But around age 5, we just told him to play quietly if he woke up.  that was 13 years ago, so I can't remember it too well anymore.

 

Ages 0-4, we were up every few hours.  It was miserable.

 

We tried therapy, all the "natural remedies" and almost went to medication, but decided not to.   When he did sleep, he slept like a rock for a few hours at a time, so much so that he wet his bed.

 

The above is just to say, "I feel your pain!"

[SparklyUnicorn]

My 18 year old still doesn't sleep much.  But he no longer yells from the living room, "I'm all alone in here!  Someone come play with me!"   :lol:

 

 

LOL

 

Thankfully my kid who would do something like this never had any trouble sleeping.  He'd totally do that though.

[Ausmumof3]

My 10 yo is like this. He gets send to bed at 8.30 or 9 and can then read or listen to the radio quietly. I don't parent him to sleep so I am off duty at that point.

[Pawz4me]

Random comments --

 

I don't think an 11:00 bed time for a 10 yo is all that unusual or awful. From the time the boys were six or seven we let them regulate their own sleep, and IIRC both of them were staying up until around 10:30. But they knew they had to be quiet and not disturb me or anyone else -- I go to bed early; DH was always up with them but needed his "me" time.

 

Is he able to get up and get going in the morning at a reasonable time? Does he seem rested during the day? I think those are the most important things.

 

I had horrible insomnia as a child. It was a rare night that I could get to sleep before midnight or later despite being tired and by nature an early bird. In hindsight I think anxiety was a big part of my problem. But as a child I didn't know what to call it or even realize there was anything to be done about it.

 

Youngest DS was an absolutely horrible sleeper up until he was five. His problem was due to sensory issues.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Pawz4me

[J-rap]

The two people I know personally whose sleep patterns seemed to have always been off or difficult turned out to be adults with very interesting brains!  One of them is ADHD + maybe something else undiagnosed.  The other is highly ambitious almost to the point of being compulsive and his brain is just on non-stop.  They're both great, functioning young men, but I can see now in hind site that they both had very active brains right from the start.  (They're not related.)

 

I'm not saying that's the case of your ds, but just throwing it out there.  :)  

 

The first one continues to struggle.  He takes Benedryl and sometimes prescription sleep meds to help him sleep.  It seems to go in cycles.  He does best when he can stay active and be on his own schedule, and now operates his own business primarily because it allows him to be outside and sleep when he can.

 

The second one has learned habits that help calm his mind before bed, and he does sleep well now.  Things that have helped him:  He is a very careful eater.  (Mostly paleo.)  He will often have a small protein-heavy snack about two hours before bed.  (A hard boiled egg, for example.)  He takes epson salt baths.  He mostly is not on his laptop close to bedtime, but if he is, he has the screen brightness/color adjusted so that it turns into the warm, gold tones in the evenings.  He practices relaxation and meditation techniques.  He wears earplugs, and sleeps best when his room is completely dark.  

 

Oh, just an additional note.  My dh sometimes has trouble sleeping, and has tried melatonin about three times in the past 10 years.  Each time he came down with a severe headache within hours after taking it.  We kept thinking it was a coincidence so eventually tried it again, but he'd always get that same headache.

 

It could be that your son is just more of a late-night person!

[wapiti]

How much melatonin were you using?  If you haven't already tried the, try a small dose (250 mcg, so a quarter of a mg, or go up to a half, 500 mcg).  I saw someplace that lower doses are more effective - it boggles my mind that it comes in such large doses, LOL.  Anyway, I get weird dreams with melatonin at doses any higher than this, but 250 to 500 mcg works nicely for me.  I'd take these or these (the same) and cut them in half, so 250 mcg.  I recently bought this 300 mcg but it isn't as nicely flavored as the other.

 

Alternaively, I give one of my young teens NutraSleep (check the vitamin store for the best price - it's cheap), a half tablet a few hours before bedtime.  Seems to help him sleep better.  His problem is waking up too early though.

 

I'd keep up the magnesium but maybe give it earlier in the day, such as afternoon.  *Some people are sensitive to certain things like magnesium too close to bedtime and it wakes them up.*

 

Another possible addition is Evening Primrose Oil - I would have my ds chew a capsule, suck out the oil and spit the capsule out LOL.

 

If the child has any other significant issues, I might have additional suggestions.

 

 

[6packofun]

Some more info...

 

Ds10 is always up and ready to go when he wakes around 9-10.  That's not late considering when he falls asleep, I guess, and I can't adjust his sleep schedule no matter how hard I try to work it!

 

I'd say he is adhd for sure, but we don't have any diagnoses for any of his "issues" yet.  He has a mild tic disorder/Tourettes (again, not diagnosed, but it's obvious) and some anxiety/OCD. He probably falls asleep after midnight, close to 1 a.m. 95% of the time and it wouldn't be a big deal if he'd just hang out in his room.  But he shares a room and even having his brother in there does not relieve his fear of the dark or his room or whichever it really is.  He gets afraid if his brother is sleeping and he's not!  So he comes down to my room to tell me how afraid he is.  (We're on separate floors and I cannot change that--old house, oddly set up.)

 

The problem with changing his diet, adding supplements or medications is that he is extremely picky and will NOT take them. (If it can't be hidden perfectly in juice forget it. lol)   I can't even get him to try new things more than once in a blue moon and I haven't found that forcing him works well at all.  So.  lol  

 

I love the idea of epsom salts for a bath!  I will try this.

 

I want to say that I don't mind at ALL if he's just a night owl!  So am I.  But he's a draining kid and I can't be with him every minute until we both fall asleep and he can't seem to just BE in his room until he gets tired. I just want to get to that point where if he needs to be up longer, FINE, as long as he's not disturbing his brother and/or me off and on, kwim?  He will tearfully say that he's trying but just can't do it.  :(  It's probably time to see the dr. about the anxiety...this is the one area where he hasn't made any improvements with it.

 

Also, I don't *think* he is on the autism spectrum, but we've talked about getting him a weighted blanket and he seems to like the idea!  What are your thoughts?

[6packofun]

Oh, and our bedroom just doesn't have the room to even put a sleeping pad on the floor for ds.  We have walking room around our bed between the dressers and that's IT.  So making a space for him to quietly come in and lay down doesn't work, but he's the kind of kid that, because it's there, would get into the habit of using it more and more, I think.

 

I feel like I'm making up excuses why things can't work, but they just don't and we've tried!  lol

[6packofun]

How much melatonin were you using?  If you haven't already tried the, try a small dose (250 mcg, so a quarter of a mg, or go up to a half, 500 mcg).  I saw someplace that lower doses are more effective - it boggles my mind that it comes in such large doses, LOL.  Anyway, I get weird dreams with melatonin at doses any higher than this, but 250 to 500 mcg works nicely for me.  I'd take these or these (the same) and cut them in half, so 250 mcg.  I recently bought this 300 mcg but it isn't as nicely flavored as the other.

 

 

 

When ds was younger, we used a liquid that was 1 mg (4 dropperfuls = 1 mg so I'd gave him just 1 to start).  We've always seen the benefits of the melatonin fade away and so we assumed he'd grown or got used to it and needed a higher dose.  Recently he's been taking 2-2.5 mg which seems to work at getting him to sleep but almost always now gives him bad/weird dreams and wakes him in the middle of the night.  I had no idea they made lower dose tablets like that!  I feel like melatonin is one step forward, two steps back because he'd start falling asleep earlier, within an hour of taking it and for a week or two it would almost be bliss...then it would stop being as effective.  We'd stop it for a while and start again several times before upping the dose.  And I wasn't giving it to him like 2 hours before his (apparent) natural bedtime, either, to rig things.  lol

[Farrar]

I have kids who have trouble sleeping periodically and pretty much always have. Neither of them slept through the night until they were about 5 or 6 yo. Neither of them went to sleep on their own for years either.

 

They're 12 now. I have taken the tactic in the last few years that it's really on them. We've focused on psychological techniques over things like lavender pillows and vitamin supplements. One of them does do melatonin, but I'm convinced it has more placebo effect than physiological. While occasionally I do have a long, frustrating night (I posted about one here awhile ago where everyone was up all night - it was horrible!) for the most part, when insomnia rears its head, it's on the kid to employ his strategies and leave us alone. All I can do is give a quick hug and remind him of the strategies for when you're having trouble sleeping. I've had to accept that no one can force someone to sleep.

[skimomma]

My 13 yo has never been able to fall asleep easily.  I should have known we were in trouble when she only slept for 9 of her first 24 hours!  Even as an infant, she would happily stare at the ceiling for hours after "bedtime."  Luckily she was content.....until she could move under her own power.  Then we were in trouble.

 

We have tried everything and finally gave up around the time she turned 10.  The drama around trying to "fix" it probably caused more issues anyway.  At age 10, we started shifting the focus on getting dd more independent so that she could manage her own time after "lights out."  That is where we are now.  Dd is mostly self-sufficient after bedtime each night.  She is to be in her room at 9pm.  What she does after that is up to her except it must be quiet and no electronics are allowed (aside from music).  She is usually still awake when I go to bed at 11-midnight.  She still gets up with the rest of us at 7am.  I'm sure it is to enough sleep but she is healthy and does not seem tired most of the time.  

 

So, to answer your question, no, it did not change for us.  But we are in a better place.  Camps and sleepovers are hard for dd and we all suffer when forced to share a hotel room, but other than that it has become manageable.  

[SproutMamaK]

It sounds like the issue is his anxiety more than the sleep. If he could manage staying quietly awake on his own, it would be a lot healthier for both of you. Does he have a nightlight in his room to help with the fear of the dark? Is it possible to give him and his brother separate rooms is that he can fall asleep with a dimmed light on and his brother can be in the dark?  Is he less scared if he's allowed to red in bed with a flashlight? I think your best bet is to deal with the fear of the dark/being alone so that he can cope with those things, rather than trying to change his natural sleep rhythm.

[Pawz4me]

Having BTDT myself as a child, and having a DS who suffers from anxiety I would strongly urge you to have him evaluated and consider some form(s) of treatment, whether that be therapy or medication or whatever. Anxiety is not a small thing to deal with, especially for a child who doesn't yet have the experience to have developed many coping strategies.

[scrapbookbuzz]

Try rubbing Lavender essential oil on the bottoms of his feet.

Have you tried having him drink an herbal tea containing valerian root and/or chamomile?

Those two herbs specifically help the body relax enough so it can sleep.

 

Reading your post, I'm thinking he might just be a night owl. But I also agree with another poster

to have him do something quietly in his room from 9pm until he's tired enough to sleep, so you can 

have some time to yourself.

 

[Terabith]

Mine is 11.5. Hasn't changed, although much easier on me.