1800's

[Janeway]

I was reading on the story of a grandparent. This one is from the 1800's. it says he only had a 2nd grade education and left home at 12 or 13. I see this and I sort of assume there must have been chaos in the home that led him to leave.

 

One interesting thing though, years later, he seemed to become a lawyer with no additional education.

[SKL]

I have an uncle (still alive) who became a licensed podiatrist despite never graduating college and being homeless.  (I think he got his high school diploma from Reform School.)  He somehow talked the podiatry school into admitting him, started operating in the army (may have been ROTC?), and ended up having a prosperous career.  :P  He's very very intelligent.

[MEmama]

I doubt that was uncommon. It was usual that kids that age worked; large or struggling families often couldn't care for all their kids, sending the older ones out on their own. Work houses were full of young people making their own way for all kinds of reasons.

 

Our modern lives are very, very cushy compared to past generations. There is another thread that has me thinking about this, how much we take for granted and past struggles we have no way to relate to. There is no way I'd want to turn back the clock.

[Carol in Cal.]

Abraham Lincoln 'read law' to learn to be a lawyer.

 

My own grandfather, born in 1906, did not finish high school.  His mother was widowed, and he had to quit school to work because they needed the income.  But he read a lot over the years, and was extremely intelligent, and most people assumed that he had graduated from college, maybe at the graduate level, when they conversed with him.

[Janeway]

I doubt that was uncommon. It was usual that kids that age worked; large or struggling families often couldn't care for all their kids, sending the older ones out on their own. Work houses were full of young people making their own way for all kinds of reasons.

 

Our modern lives are very, very cushy compared to past generations. There is another thread that has me thinking about this, how much we take for granted and past struggles we have no way to relate to. There is no way I'd want to turn back the clock.

Sometimes, I look around on Reddit..which has a lot of young people who like to post about how easy past generations had it. Recently, on my FB, for some reason, a post came across where someone claims the past generations had everything and the wife never worked and they retired comfortably at 60 and that it is the responsibility of the government to make it that way again. I asked them which generation had it this way....the generation that grew up in the depression or the generation that raised all latchkey kids? I also pointed out that prior to that, most people were farmers and farmers do not really ever retire. They said not farmers, but in the suburbs, it was like that for everyone. I wanted to smack my forehead and ask the schools why they do not educate kids better about history. 

 

I could rant longer about this, but yeah. You get the idea.

[73349]

LOL, that kid needs to read Farmer Boy, in which everyone aged 8 and up is working 16-hour days to make that farm go! Kid sleeps until like 5 on a winter morning, and mom's like, "Are you sick??"

 

My grandparents were all high school graduates, and I think most if not all of the greats, but that doesn't mean life was easy.

[FaithManor]

Even my own dad was shipped out to work at 15. His parents were very much of the opinion that working to support the family was good, but they also expected him to attend high school and graduate. He found work on a dairy farm for room and board plus some pay. He milked from 4 am to 7:30 am, went to school, worked from 4pm to 9 pm, did homework until midnight and then worked all day Saturday and half days on Sunday. The four hours of sleep eventually took its toll and his health went into decline. My grandmother wanted him to come home, but my s.o.b. grandfather told him to suck it up and be a man. This went on until the farmer refused to let dad go home on a work day when he came down very ill. Eventually he collapsed and another worker rushed him to the hospital. Ruptured appendix. He barely survived. Begrudgingly he was allowed to live at home after recovering from surgery, but still expected to find another job and give part of his pay to his parents for room and board. Meanwhile, my uncle - a really bad person - but also the favorite child, lived at home board free and only worked a few hours a week in grandpa's business. That too was not that uncommon. It was not considered bad parenting to have a favorite and treat the others quite poorly. My dad's oldest sibling, a sister, was worked like a draft horse and treated worse while the youngest, a girl too, was a terrorist and entirely irresponsible on every level and they bailed her out of one bad decision after the other, and did not have to work or pay her parents as a teen. The treatment of that dear, sweet hardworking aunt was so horrible she was suicidal throughout her high school years.

 

And to listen to so many of my parents' friends talk, this was rather normal, at least in this area.

 

I think about how Ma Ingalls treated Laura in comparison to Mary. No matter how hard Laura worked and contributed to the familu finances while being the best student in the community, approval from Ma was pretty non existent and the best od the best was given to Mary from opportunity to clothes to personal possessions. I have often wondered if it was because children were considered an unavoidable burden so parents felt no desire to form emotional bonds with all of the ones that lived. Pregnancy and childbirth were frought with danger as well. I think that these circumstances, no good options for controlling famy size, too many mouths too feed, high infant and maternal mortality rate, all added up to babies were burdens to be endured. It was that way for my great grandmother, maternal. 20 pregnancies, 17 survived, and she simply did not give a flying leap about those kids except that they lived long enough to find a job and give her and great grandpa money. Accordong to my grandmother, her parents never showed the slightest sign of attachment to any of them, not even late in life, not when one of their sons was killed in WW2, not when one of their adult daughters committed suicide.

 

Gah....I have heard so many stories like this. Nope...no thanks. I like my world where I love and adore my kids, and genuinely want them in my life without the motivation of extracting every ounce of work and pay out of them or have to send them packing because there isn't enough food or room for them.

[SKL]

My grandma told me that when she was 5yo she was required to learn to crochet lace as perfectly as possible, and things got more complicated from there.  She also went to work in her teens (as a maid in a rich person's house), and brought the money home to her parents.  I'm not sure if she graduated high school or not, but she was not uneducated.

 

As for retiring work-free at 60 ... she worked into her 80s.  :P

[Anne]

My grandparents on my dad's side had 3rd and 6th grade educations - they farmed quite successfully even during the depression.  They raised five children - three of their children went through high school - the men farmed and my aunt taught school (in fact, she was my dad's first teacher in the one-room school he attended until high school!)  One joined the army and became a doctor and one joined the army and wound up with his PhD in Physics (that was my dad).

 

Our family doesn't have any stories like FaithManor's - everybody was certainly expected to work very hard and stand on their own two feet, but there was also support and encouragement along the way and definitely lots of love.

 

Anne

 

 

[Guest]

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Edited September 10, 2020 by Æthelthryth the Texan

[Selkie]

My 82 y.o. FIL, who grew up on a farm and was one of 12 kids, quit school at age 12 and went to work.  My MIL was one of 10 kids from a farm family.  They got married right after she graduated high school and built a very successful business together.  All three of their kids not only went to college but got advanced degrees (an MD, a PhD, and an MBA).  Quite a difference in education levels from one generation to the next! 

[poppy]

My 85 year old grandfather was farmed out to relatives to work by age 10.

We have it good, here, in this world. Thank goodness for social safety nets.

[Garga]

My grandmother-in-law went to work at 10 or so as a maid.  There were too many mouths to feed at home.  She lived with the family where she was a maid.  

 

She was a tough old bird, though she did love her own kids (my father-in-law and his 2 siblings.)  

 

I didn't know this about her while she was alive (having to go to work at 10), and didn't much like being around her because she was always railing against something or other.  She strained my patience.  If I'd have known, I might have seen her through a different lens and found a way to connect with her while she was living.

[Amber in SJ]

It really is interesting how these things shake out.  When my grandfather was 8 in Nebraska his father worked on the railroad.  His mother had died of pneumonia the year before and then his father died in a railroad accident.  My grandfather & 5 brothers were farmed out to various relatives who were doing their "Christian Duty." The boys were worked almost to death with no pay & barely any sustenance.  Each of the brothers went into the army as soon as they were able to legally, just in time for WWII.  Years later my grandpa received a notice that his father had died in a residence facility.  It turns out that his father hadn't died when he was a child; he just didn't want to parent anymore.  He was fully aware of the terrible treatment his sons were receiving at the hands of relatives but he wasn't willing to do anything about it.  I just don't get it.

 

My husband's grandmother was 10 when her mother died.  She was the youngest in a family with one boy and four other girls.  After the funeral the priest in their church told the widower that it was inappropriate for a man to be the only parent to girls ages 10, 11, 13, 15 & 16.  All 5 girls were sent away to live & be educated in a convent in the Santa Cruz mountains.  (I totally thought this was a made up story until I saw the pictures)  The oldest daughter ran away repeatedly back home and was returned to the convent kicking & screaming until she decided it was better to run away with a boy she knew and never come back.  The other girls were a mix of problem behaviors to try & get sent home but instead they just faced more & more punishment.  They saw their father twice a year at Christmas & Easter and grandma remembers clinging to her father; crying & begging to be able to go home.  I just don't understand how a parent could stand it.  

 

Even further back in our family history we have a multiple great grandma who died emigrating from Denmark to Utah leaving a husband and two small boys.  The husband remarried and the new step-mother basically ignored the two boys once her own children came along.  Journals we have from one of the sons tells about how he was not allowed to go to school because he was treated as an unpaid farm hand until some other ladies in the town told the step-mom that there was some "talk" about how she was treating those boys.  This particular boy was allowed to attend the second and third grades when the step mom decided that was sufficient education.  He recalls being sent out to tend the sheep during the early Fall and he would be out in a far pasture in the mountains for a couple weeks without seeing anyone else.  He built himself a lean-to to sleep in.  He had a few supplies like hard cheese but mostly he fished or foraged for himself.  He was 9 or 10.  When a letter from Denmark arrived saying that the boys had inherited some money from the mother's family, the money was used for a house "in town" for the step-mother & her kids.  I can't help but think....where was the father in all of this?

 

When people wax nostalgic about the good old days I have to shake my head.  

 

Amber in SJ

[katilac]

<snip> That too was not that uncommon. It was not considered bad parenting to have a favorite and treat the others quite poorly. <snip>

 

Gah....I have heard so many stories like this. Nope...no thanks. I like my world where I love and adore my kids, and genuinely want them in my life without the motivation of extracting every ounce of work and pay out of them or have to send them packing because there isn't enough food or room for them.

 

Bolding by me: my kids used to get so indignant about the blatant parental favoritism in a lot of the older books! My own grandmother was pretty obvious in her favoritism (multigenerational, lol) but she died when they were still too young to notice. 

 

They were also pretty boggled at the idea of being expected to turn over your pay, yet having no say in anything. I get that everyone needs to pitch in during hard times, but, when you take money from someone, you have to give up being el dictador. 

 

What famous couple (literary?) am I thinking of, in 1700s or 1800s England, that couldn't get married for a long time because her parents wanted and expected her to stay home and take care of them? Sorry, no life for you! 

[AK_Mom4]

My maternal grandmother was sent out as a hired girl at age 10 after her parents died from measles. Her younger brother went to work as a stable hand - age 8. My grandmother married one of the farm hands at age 16 and had her first child before she was 17.

 

Other side? My grandparents worked as itinerant farm workers up and down the west coast. My grandfather died of a heart attack and one of my grandmother's shames in life was that the towns people had to take up a collection so that she and her 3yo could go back to family in Texas.

 

My grandmother signed for my father and his "twin" brother to go into the navy at the start of WW2 as 17yos. My father was actually 16 and my uncle was 15. But there were no jobs in Texas for them and their Navy paychecks kept my grandmother and the 3yo going all through the war.

 

These are the stories I teach my children about those generations. They know better than to believe that bilge that is out there on social media these days.

[nd293]

I doubt that was uncommon. It was usual that kids that age worked; large or struggling families often couldn't care for all their kids, sending the older ones out on their own. Work houses were full of young people making their own way for all kinds of reasons.

 

My understanding is that my grandmother (born 1916) left school to work aged 14. I don't think she left home necessarily. Her older brother became a well known journalist / adviser to the Rhodesian government / right wing conspiracy theorist. It would be interesting to see what his education was - differences for boys and girls, as well as the 'self-education' route to a profession. I think that was pretty common in journalism.

[Scarlett]

LOL, that kid needs to read Farmer Boy, in which everyone aged 8 and up is working 16-hour days to make that farm go! Kid sleeps until like 5 on a winter morning, and mom's like, "Are you sick??"

 

My grandparents were all high school graduates, and I think most if not all of the greats, but that doesn't mean life was easy.

Ha. Read The Long Winter, after which Farmer Boy seems like a cake walk. They actually had food to eat in Farmer Boy.

[Scarlett]

Even my own dad was shipped out to work at 15. His parents were very much of the opinion that working to support the family was good, but they also expected him to attend high school and graduate. He found work on a dairy farm for room and board plus some pay. He milked from 4 am to 7:30 am, went to school, worked from 4pm to 9 pm, did homework until midnight and then worked all day Saturday and half days on Sunday. The four hours of sleep eventually took its toll and his health went into decline. My grandmother wanted him to come home, but my s.o.b. grandfather told him to suck it up and be a man. This went on until the farmer refused to let dad go home on a work day when he came down very ill. Eventually he collapsed and another worker rushed him to the hospital. Ruptured appendix. He barely survived. Begrudgingly he was allowed to live at home after recovering from surgery, but still expected to find another job and give part of his pay to his parents for room and board. Meanwhile, my uncle - a really bad person - but also the favorite child, lived at home board free and only worked a few hours a week in grandpa's business. That too was not that uncommon. It was not considered bad parenting to have a favorite and treat the others quite poorly. My dad's oldest sibling, a sister, was worked like a draft horse and treated worse while the youngest, a girl too, was a terrorist and entirely irresponsible on every level and they bailed her out of one bad decision after the other, and did not have to work or pay her parents as a teen. The treatment of that dear, sweet hardworking aunt was so horrible she was suicidal throughout her high school years.

 

And to listen to so many of my parents' friends talk, this was rather normal, at least in this area.

 

I think about how Ma Ingalls treated Laura in comparison to Mary. No matter how hard Laura worked and contributed to the familu finances while being the best student in the community, approval from Ma was pretty non existent and the best od the best was given to Mary from opportunity to clothes to personal possessions. I have often wondered if it was because children were considered an unavoidable burden so parents felt no desire to form emotional bonds with all of the ones that lived. Pregnancy and childbirth were frought with danger as well. I think that these circumstances, no good options for controlling famy size, too many mouths too feed, high infant and maternal mortality rate, all added up to babies were burdens to be endured. It was that way for my great grandmother, maternal. 20 pregnancies, 17 survived, and she simply did not give a flying leap about those kids except that they lived long enough to find a job and give her and great grandpa money. Accordong to my grandmother, her parents never showed the slightest sign of attachment to any of them, not even late in life, not when one of their sons was killed in WW2, not when one of their adult daughters committed suicide.

 

Gah....I have heard so many stories like this. Nope...no thanks. I like my world where I love and adore my kids, and genuinely want them in my life without the motivation of extracting every ounce of work and pay out of them or have to send them packing because there isn't enough food or room for them.

Very sad. I will say my relative seem to love their kids.

[gardenmom5]

I was reading on the story of a grandparent. This one is from the 1800's. it says he only had a 2nd grade education and left home at 12 or 13. I see this and I sort of assume there must have been chaos in the home that led him to leave.

 

One interesting thing though, years later, he seemed to become a lawyer with no additional education.

 

I've done genealogy for 30+ years.

we can't look at what life was like in the 1800s from our perspective today.  what was considered an education was very different.

it was COMMON for people to only have a 2nd or 3rd grade education.  even in perfectly functional families.  there were farms to work in the country, and in the city children were put to work in factories.  that was how most people lived.  there's a reason child labor laws were put into place.

 

even in the first half of the 20th century - it was common for people to only have an eighth grade education before going to work and eventually supporting a family.  some of them did very well in their chosen professions.  they learned basically by "apprenticing" - on the job training.

including law - they learned law by clerking with established lawyers.  I've a __gt uncle who was an engineer before going into law.  he studied with a lawyer and was a judge by 1900.  in SF.

 

during periods of depression and financial/economic upheaval, children would leave home.  or parents would abandon them because it was one less mouth to feed.  the book - the boys in the boat - talks about how that happened to one of them in the 20s/30s.  he joined the crew -becasue he got a meal.

[Amber in SJ]

I recently read a biography of Queen Victoria where her youngest daughter, Beatrice, was raised to be her mother's companion.  In an era where women had very little power and the value of princesses was to make politically advantageous marriages, Beatrice was not expected to ever marry so she could take care of her mother in her declining years.  Beatrice did eventually fall in love & get married, but her mother would only give permission to the marriage if the couple promised to always live with her and Beatrice would continue her duties.  

 

Amber in SJ

[DawnM]

I have an uncle (still alive) who became a licensed podiatrist despite never graduating college and being homeless.  (I think he got his high school diploma from Reform School.)  He somehow talked the podiatry school into admitting him, started operating in the army (may have been ROTC?), and ended up having a prosperous career.  :p  He's very very intelligent.

 

Do you mean he went strait to graduate school without an undergraduate degree?

[kiwik]

A lot of the jobs that require professional education now were taught more or less as apprenticeships before (cadetships I think) One of my grandfathers learnt to be an accountant by working for a government department and studying at home at night. Further back lawyers and doctors were trained on the job.

Edited October 27, 2016 by kiwik

[Onceuponatime]

My maternal grandmother only had a 6th grade education, then worked in a woolen mill in New England, along with both her parents who were Canadian immigrants. My mother quit school after 10th grade to go to work in a shoe factory to help support her family.

 

My father grew up in a multigenerational household on a small farm. His father was a travelling salesman, who never did sell much of anything. (He was a great talker and storyteller) My grandmother took care of the kitchen garden and the cow, cooked, cleaned, and sewed for the family. My dad's first job was picking beans from sunup to sundown at the age of eight.

 

Both sides of the family had to supplement their food by fishing and hunting. They killed their own chickens, milked their own cows, and had very limited diets. They washed their clothes by hand, hung them out to dry, and ironed everything with flat irons. They had no central air or heat, in New Hampshire, and my dad grew up with no indoor plumbing.

 

My paternal grandmother had to be hospitalized with postpartum depression for Three years (!) when she bore premature twins and one died. There were no pills for that.

 

No thank you.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Onceuponatime

[creekland]

One of my grandmothers (born in 1904 if I recall correctly) was the daughter of immigrants and spoke Russian until she was 4 and her mom died.  Dad remarried, but grandma had to leave school by 4th grade (age 9 if typical) and start working full time at a restaurant washing dishes (by hand, of course).  She had to walk to/from the place - even after dark and didn't get to keep her pay.  Occasionally her dad would give her some small change for clothes.  She ate leftovers at the restaurant.

 

After she married my grandfather (not sure what age), they both worked at Endicott-Johnson shoes - back when shoes were made in the US.  When her kids were born, she became a hairdresser working from her house.  She did that until they retired and moved to FL.  The whole time she lived there she volunteered at her church's thrift shop, eventually becoming the manager and doing that for years.  She never stopped working until she died in her 80s three weeks after my oldest son was born.  She never got to see him except in his baby pics.   :sad:  We had been planning a visit a couple of months later.

 

Super kudos to my grandpa though.  He always washed the dishes in his family (or had their kids - two boys - do it).  He told me grandma washed enough dishes in her youth that she should never have to touch one again.  Grandma would wash a few things while cooking (if needed), but Grandpa always did the bulk at the end of every meal (helped by kids when they were there).

 

I'm not so sure of my Grandpa's story.  He died when I was a teen.

 

My other grandparents were farmers, so worked on the farm like all farm kids did.  They lived in the same area they were born in.  One could walk to the houses they were raised in from the one they brought my mom up in.

 

ETA The first grandmother I mentioned always regretted not being able to finish school or get more of an education.  She taught herself what she could, but absolutely insisted that her two boys graduate school and go to college.  She loved that her grandkids also went to college.

 

My other grandparents also insisted my aunt and mom go to college (two oldest kids).  The next two were boys.  One took over the farm and the other went off to war - then started his own businesses.  The final two (girls) ended up with jobs after high school.  One tried college, but didn't like it.  The other just found a job she liked.  Out of 6 kids, only one ended up farming.

Edited October 27, 2016 by creekland

[umsami]

Not 1800s, but my Dad grew up the son of a doctor, and yet, he and his brothers all worked.  He worked on a relative's farm in PA, on a railway, tree trimming service, etc.  He didn't have to, but many of his fraternity brothers funded college by working in the summer.  Same thing with med school, if you can believe it.   He went to Colgate, which is a small liberal arts school in upstate NY, and then on to med school.  Back then, you could just do two years of undergrad and go on to med school.  I know my Grandpa went to the osteopathic medical school in Chicago, but I'm not sure of his undergraduate education.

 

My grandmother (Mom's mother) was born in the early 1900s and was very proud of her high school diploma.  She earned some sort of certificate in accounting after, and then eventually married my Grandpa and they owned a bakery together.  My Mom (and her sisters) grew up working in the bakery.  As the eldest, she was expected to be there from after school until closing. 

Edited October 27, 2016 by umsami

[SKL]

Do you mean he went strait to graduate school without an undergraduate degree?

 

No undergrad degree.

 

I am not sure if he had some credits from the community college or correspondence or wherever.

 

He probably aced a graduate / medical entrance exam of some sort.

 

[bethben]

My great grandfather was placed on a boat to emigrate to America when he was 12. Not a lot of money was sent with him. It was a lot of "good luck! We hope you make it!" Then, he wanted a good Lutheran wife later, sent away for a girl he knew in his Sunday school class and she came over to marry him. Not a lot of romance in that department.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gardenmom5]

Do you mean he went strait to graduate school without an undergraduate degree?

 

my dd had people in her pharmd program (top ten program), TODAY, that didn't have undergrads.  (mostly pharm techs)  there's about two year's worth of prereqs, and they only have to meet the prereqs. think about how many people who have undergrads that are unrelated to their grad degree.  dd  has undergrad in chem with a minor bio.  she still had to take two classes to meet the prereqs. (one was a public speaking class that had us all in stitches. she didn't need instruction in public speaking.)

[SquirrellyMama]

Sometimes, I look around on Reddit..which has a lot of young people who like to post about how easy past generations had it. Recently, on my FB, for some reason, a post came across where someone claims the past generations had everything and the wife never worked and they retired comfortably at 60 and that it is the responsibility of the government to make it that way again. I asked them which generation had it this way....the generation that grew up in the depression or the generation that raised all latchkey kids? I also pointed out that prior to that, most people were farmers and farmers do not really ever retire. They said not farmers, but in the suburbs, it was like that for everyone. I wanted to smack my forehead and ask the schools why they do not educate kids better about history.

 

I could rant longer about this, but yeah. You get the idea.

Whenever I hear about people talking fondly of the good old days of early retirement they are usually talking about the 50's and 60's. My mom is very nostalgic for the 50's. I'm guessing her own mother was not.It wasn't the best time for them, but my mom was a child then. It is like people my age remembering the 80's with fondness. My mom wouldn't, because it wasn't an easy time for them.

 

I used to wish I had grown up in the 1800's. It seemed so lovely and idyllic in the books I read. Then I read a book of diary excerpts from North Dakota pioneer women. It was an eye opener for sure.

 

Kelly

Edited October 27, 2016 by SquirrellyMama

[maize]

What strikes me while reading through this thread is that this is still the reality of ordinary folks' lives in many parts of the world.

[FaithManor]

My great grandfather was placed on a boat to emigrate to America when he was 12. Not a lot of money was sent with him. It was a lot of "good luck! We hope you make it!" Then, he wanted a good Lutheran wife later, sent away for a girl he knew in his Sunday school class and she came over to marry him. Not a lot of romance in that department.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yowzas!

[Rachel]

One of my great grandmothers had an 8th grade education. She then attended a teacher college and got a certification to teach in a one room schoolhouse. My grandfather has memories of going to school with her. My great grandfather had a 5th grade education and worked in a factory although I'm not sure at what age he started working. I do know his family was so poor that when his mother sent letters to her sisters she reused the letters her sister had sent, writing in the margins.

 

Another of my great grandmothers quit school at age 14 when her father died. She worked as a phone operator for Western Union and supported herself and her sister from that point on (I think their mom had a mental breakdown). My great grandfather had health issues that prevented him from working so he was a stay at home dad. By the time great grandma quit working in the 70's she was an executive assistant to the president of an oil company and made good enough money that they owned a second home and traveled around the world. She was never a victim though, she just did what her family needed.

[JFSinIL]

Back then even getting through 8th grade was an achievement - it meant the family did not need the young person out making money to help support the family. And once a person reached the teen years, well, you were a child, or you were an adult. If the family could not or would not support a student getting through high school (not to mention college) then the other option for a male was to get a job. For a girl, stay home to help Mom and help with younger siblings, or get a job, or get married.

 

Look at Laura Ingalls - she passed the exam and got a permit to teach before she was 16!!!!

Edited October 27, 2016 by JFSinIL

[Lady Florida.]

My mother, born in 1934, had an 8th grade education. As the oldest she was expected to quit school and help support the family as soon as she was old enough to get her working papers (14). Her two younger sisters both were allowed to finish high school. 

[FaithManor]

 

My paternal grandmother had to be hospitalized with postpartum depression for Three years (!) when she bore premature twins and one died. There were no pills for that.

 

No thank you.

We think this may have contribute to my great grandmother's lack of emotional connection to her 17 children. Her first pregnancy, a set of twins, were born prematurely (something like 26 weeks if memory serves) and of course did not make it. She may have had severe post partum depression.

 

I know that at child 14 the old country doctor begged great grandpa to stop having sex with her because another pregnancy was going to push her over the edge. He didn't. Selfish jerk. She had three more, but many after child 15 she was plum out of her head. The oldest, by then a young twenties WW2 veteran with a wife, had to take that child home and raise it. Baby 16, he and his wife also took that one. Baby 17? After an incident in which she left him in a dresser drawer for many hours with a diaper on his head - I can only assume it was very loose so he still had plenty of oxygen flow because he showed no signs of neurological damage - the second oldest, recently married - took him. The old country doc, completely fed up with this never ending parade of pregnancies despite warnings, convinced them that she might have uterine cancer, and did a hysterectomy, then went, "Oops, I was wrong. Oh well." Guess back in those days one could get away with that kind of thing.

 

But I don't know. I've heard many stories from the era of mothers unattached to their children so I don't know if it was post partum at least with the early kids. Very hard to say as there was so little documentation.

 

Again, no thanks. My dd had some issues post partum, and when her husband realized she needed some help - she wasn't severe but he was concerned - he took her to the OB, they promptly drew blood, found her D3 bizarrely low which definitely contributes to depression, anemia which also contributes, and estrogen too low. Shot of estrogen, B12 injection, IV iron, huge D3 supplements, and a very, very low dose of Zoloft, and she was right as rain pretty quickly. She doesn't have to take the Zoloft now, and is a joyous, happy mamma.

 

So I am firmly in the camp of preferring 2016 despite this being the year of political insanity.

[Ravin]

I was reading on the story of a grandparent. This one is from the 1800's. it says he only had a 2nd grade education and left home at 12 or 13. I see this and I sort of assume there must have been chaos in the home that led him to leave.

 

One interesting thing though, years later, he seemed to become a lawyer with no additional education.

 

Back then it was not uncommon to enter the legal profession through apprenticeship. You worked in a law firm as a clerk/secretary, studied the law, and could gain admission to the bar when you passed the bar exam. Only one or two states still allow this avenue to practicing law.

[Janeway]

Back then it was not uncommon to enter the legal profession through apprenticeship. You worked in a law firm as a clerk/secretary, studied the law, and could gain admission to the bar when you passed the bar exam. Only one or two states still allow this avenue to practicing law.

He actually did not even apprentice. There was apparently some big dispute in his area of the country people vs the city people in the county. So, he represented the country people and took the county to court and sued them. Successfully. After that, it had gone so well, he started doing more and more cases.

[Guest]

My granddad was born in 1902 so he misses the cutoff. He quit school at third grade, was a SeaBee in two world wars, whose motto is, "yes, we can." I think he made it his. In his day he was a ride-the-rails hobo, a taxi driver, an award-winning newspaper-and professional photographer, a film-maker, and finished up as a homesteader who ran an offset printing business. He did the last by figuring out what business did not exist in a 50 mile radius, finding there was no print shop, learning how to do it and opening a shop. He also learned how to raise and slaughter-for-food chickens, sheep and goats. He married my widowed grandmother who had 4 young children and they were married for nearly 60 years.

 

He could talk to anyone about anything and kept learning until the day he died at 93.

[FaithManor]

It would be interesting if there had been some sort of study that followed kids who went into the workforce so young to see how they did in adult life.

 

I know that anecdotally, my dad never did well. Having all that responsibility so young did nothing for him. My mom worked in high school doing tailoring for pay to give to her mother, and it wasn't like she did super well either since she tied her skirt strings to dad's business. She had a lot going for her so its a shame that she didn't work independently of him. I think she would have actually had a decent career.

 

Her mother, the one out of the 17 above, not only was raised in abject poverty, but never really climbed out. She hit the point in history where a 6th grade education wasn't enough anymore so any jobs she held were just part time and paltry pay, sometimes quite dangerous. If she had been a high school graduate, she could have done a lot better. She married an under-educated WW2 vet who was a lovely, lovely man, but not enough education to climb out of the ditch, having been raised in poverty, worked young, gave all his money to his parents, and then went to the army as an escape. His parents had three sons, and I honestly think they believed they were entitled to their sons' income forever! Grandpa's mother never forgave him for marrying and having a family and not sending his money home to her.

 

My paternal grandfather worked from 11 to 18, gave his dad all his pay, and if his dad thought he saved out one red cent, would beat him severely. It was ridiculous. But that didn't stop him from turning around and doing that to his own son and daughter - the eldest ones. My grandmother put A LOT of pressure on my aunt to marry young in order to escape. That didn't turn out so well. She remained married to my uncle, but it was a very bad marriage. That said, she managed two years of nursing school and ended up doing Red Cross volunteer work which was very meaningful to her, and her husband had a bachelor's and master's degree and worked for a TV station as an electrical engineer. He made a decent living, and was a disciplined saver. Financially, my aunt definitely came out of poverty into a middle class life.

 

I just wonder how many when forced to leave their educations and work so hard at such young ages actually managed to get out of poverty. If you read the story of Ralph Moody whose father died when he was only 8 or 9 years old leaving his pregnant wife with four children beside the one on the way, a family that lived in serious poverty, it is amazing, and not only did he help his mother provide for all of his siblings, but since lack of education was a big factor in his father's inability to get decent work, she made him stay in school and work around his studies. He ended up being a successful insurance salesman. I good story, but one wonders what happened to the other siblings, and in general in stories like these, how many whose educations were ended for supporting their parents and siblings actually made it out of poverty.

 

Given the issues with generational poverty, I tend to think that more sank, than swam as the saying goes.

[Amber in SJ]

Oh my goodness the emigration stories would make you weep.  In our family we have the journals/ stories of ancestors who lived in Scotland.  Mom & Dad & 9 kids.  They decide to emigrate to the US.  Utah, specifically, being Mormons, but they can't afford to all go at once.  First to go are the 16 year old son & 14 year old daughter.  They are sent to Liverpool, from there they make their way with other English speaking emigrants to Missouri, then they are assigned to a wagon company and make their way West.  The 16 year old is considered a grown man with all the responsibilities that entails.  They share a wagon with a young widowed woman and her small child.  Upon their arrival in Utah the young widow (19) marries the now 17 year old.  They send a letter home to say they have safely arrived in Salt Lake City, Utah.  Two years later the family back in Scotland has saved enough to send the next few kids.  This time it is a 15 year old daughter, a 13 year old daughter and just for fun they send the 2 year old "baby" with his sisters.  Unbeknownst to to the family back home both the other children in Utah, now married, have settled in other parts of the west.  The letter letting them know their siblings will be arriving soon never reaches the intended recipients.  The girls make it to New York and then to the jumping off place to the west but the other migrants they are placed with are a large group of people from Sweden.  They speak no Swedish & the others speak very little English.  The girls are often isolated from the group.  The older sister does not survive the trek and dies in her sleep of a fever with her little sister lying next to her.  The 13 year old can't easily carry the 2 year old but she uses her mother's shawl to tie him to her back for the miles she walks everyday.  Measles begins to work its way through the group and the 2 year old gets very sick.  Two weeks before the emigrants arrive in Utah the little boy dies.  Finally they arrive and everyone goes to those who are expecting them, but this little girl is left sitting on her trunk with no one who knows where her adult sister or brother are.  And of course there is no way for the family back home to have any idea about what has happened to their children.  After reading those kinds of family stories I can barely watch movies that romanticize the wild west era.  

 

Yes, I sent my 18 & 17 year old daughters off to college in other states, but I can talk to them by phone, communicate by text or even see their faces by face time any time I want.  I can't imagine sending my children off into the world with no way of knowing what was happening to them.   Give me 2016 communication technology any day!

 

Amber in SJ

[La Condessa]

My great-grandmother was 12 years old when her mother died.  She was the fifth or sixth child, but because her older sister had just married and the rest were boys, she had to drop out of school and run the household and raise the youngest brothers while her father worked the farm.  She always regretted not being able to finish her education and considered herself to be ignorant because of it, but she read voraciously and was actually one of the most intelligent, knowledgeable people I have known.  It was a large family but very loving and caring. 
All of her brothers sent her cards on Mother's Day every year until their deaths.

[Donna]

My husband's aunts have letters about a relation in the 1800's from Ireland. He was 12-13yo when his friend's family was immigrating to the US and he was allowed to visit with them the evening before they left. He "fell asleep on the ship" (is the story in one letter) and was not found until the ship was on its way. There was no money or way to send him back home so the friend's family took him in. He eventually became a doctor in the US.

[Guest]

my dd had people in her pharmd program (top ten program), TODAY, that didn't have undergrads. (mostly pharm techs) there's about two year's worth of prereqs, and they only have to meet the prereqs. think about how many people who have undergrads that are unrelated to their grad degree. dd has undergrad in chem with a minor bio. she still had to take two classes to meet the prereqs. (one was a public speaking class that had us all in stitches. she didn't need instruction in public speaking.)

Several of our current board members don't have a pharmD because they weren't offered. They are plenty competent in both practice and technical knowledge, including all the sterile compounders who have to follow the gazillion process points in USP 797.

 

We have a number of engineers with only a bachelors who passed their PE and SE exams easily too. Can't same the same for the current batch of grads - different scales, the current programs have a different scope and sequence and the exams have evolved too.

Edited October 27, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Rachel]

 

We have a number of engineers with only a bachelors who passed their PE and SE exams easily too. Can't same the same for the current batch of grads - different scales, the current programs have a different scope and sequence and the exams have evolved too.

. Most of the engineers I know with their PE never went to grad school including my husband (07 grad) and brother(05 grad) although he has since earned his MS. My dad is the exception because his phd is in engineering but his BS and MS are in education. In fact as of about a year ago you can now take the PE exam straight out of college but you don't receive you license until you have 5 years of experience working under a PE.

[Guest]

 

The SE pass rates on the first try are laughably low, but a few without adequate experience have attempted it anyway. Of the three of them in there when my husband took it one walked out before the first day was up, one failed pretty hard core (narrow practice scope but thought he could manage with the appropriate codes), and one passed (hubby! But unlike the PE he actually studied for the SE, in addition to almost ten years of active structural work in bridges and buildings). The former is much easier than the latter, but still no cakewalk :)

Edited October 28, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[gardenmom5]

 

 

 

Oh my goodness the emigration stories would make you weep.  In our family we have the journals/ stories of ancestors who lived in Scotland.  Mom & Dad & 9 kids.  They decide to emigrate to the US.  Utah, specifically, being Mormons, but they can't afford to all go at once.  First to go are the 16 year old son & 14 year old daughter.  They are sent to Liverpool, from there they make their way with other English speaking emigrants to Missouri, then they are assigned to a wagon company and make their way West.  The 16 year old is considered a grown man with all the responsibilities that entails.  They share a wagon with a young widowed woman and her small child.  Upon their arrival in Utah the young widow (19) marries the now 17 year old.  They send a letter home to say they have safely arrived in Salt Lake City, Utah.  Two years later the family back in Scotland has saved enough to send the next few kids.  This time it is a 15 year old daughter, a 13 year old daughter and just for fun they send the 2 year old "baby" with his sisters.  Unbeknownst to to the family back home both the other children in Utah, now married, have settled in other parts of the west.  The letter letting them know their siblings will be arriving soon never reaches the intended recipients.  The girls make it to New York and then to the jumping off place to the west but the other migrants they are placed with are a large group of people from Sweden.  They speak no Swedish & the others speak very little English.  The girls are often isolated from the group.  The older sister does not survive the trek and dies in her sleep of a fever with her little sister lying next to her.  The 13 year old can't easily carry the 2 year old but she uses her mother's shawl to tie him to her back for the miles she walks everyday.  Measles begins to work its way through the group and the 2 year old gets very sick.  Two weeks before the emigrants arrive in Utah the little boy dies.  Finally they arrive and everyone goes to those who are expecting them, but this little girl is left sitting on her trunk with no one who knows where her adult sister or brother are.  And of course there is no way for the family back home to have any idea about what has happened to their children.  After reading those kinds of family stories I can barely watch movies that romanticize the wild west era.  

 

Yes, I sent my 18 & 17 year old daughters off to college in other states, but I can talk to them by phone, communicate by text or even see their faces by face time any time I want.  I can't imagine sending my children off into the world with no way of knowing what was happening to them.   Give me 2016 communication technology any day!

 

Amber in SJ

 

 

I can't get enough information.  I have a _gt grandmother who emigrated as a young woman.  there was a teenage girl with her, but I don't even know if they were related.  and the teenage girl disappears from the records shortly after that.

Most of my 19th century emigres came as  teenagers - by themselves. I know roughly where one set came from in sweden, but haven't found them there yet. one _grandmother worked as a servant, married another swedish emigre and moved from chicago to nebraska and had seven children. they eventually settled  in seattle and he opened his own business.  they were prosperous.  their children were educated

 

we know more about dh's family.  one _ggm was left a destitute widow with 6 children, including an infant.  in missouri - after the extermination order had been issued.  her neighbors did help support her.  her wealthy family in england sent her $50  (approx $1600) to come back to england, and promised if she would "renounce those mormons"  they would provide a home for her and her children.  she said thanks - and bought a cow. she managed to survive, feed her children, get them 'enough' education to do ok, and run their farm.  and saved their money to go to utah.  in 1860 - they sold the farm and left.  their property in MO was trodden over during the civil war.  (my mother's family was also in MO, about 100 miles north, and were away from the action.)

 

and sending kids off to college - you know where they're going.  it's been thoroughly checked out.  you know they have a room and meals.

 

there were multiple reasons why people emigrated.  we always think of the puritians as ending up only in MA - they didn't.  they were spread out, the most conservative of were in MA.  my puritan ancestors were in CT.  there were 20 years with a huge migration of entire families fleeing religious persecution in europe.  similar to the mormon migration - it was entire families.  other migrationshe tended to have singles (mostly male) immigrating for financial opportunity.  (the population was lopsided for a very long time.) then parliament was restored - and it mostly dried up. during 11 years of 1629 - 1640, as many as 20K people came.  they were educated (doing my own genealogy got me doing more research on the great migration because these people had social status in 1600s england! I found that over and over and over.  and they were leaving it behind)- they came to a wild frontier country with few established settlements. it was rough. I can't imagine.  but they were free to govern themselves.

people who romanticize it . . don't get out enough.

[gardenmom5]

Several of our current board members don't have a pharmD because they weren't offered. They are plenty competent in both practice and technical knowledge, including all the sterile compounders who have to follow the gazillion process points in USP 797.

 

We have a number of engineers with only a bachelors who passed their PE and SE exams easily too. Can't same the same for the current batch of grads - different scales, the current programs have a different scope and sequence and the exams have evolved too.

 

I know it's changing.  it used to be a "luxury", and many didn't have it.  older pharmacists  have the experience even if not the degree, but new ones increasingly need it if they want a job.

[Guest]

I know it's changing. it used to be a "luxury", and many didn't have it. older pharmacists have the experience even if not the degree, but new ones increasingly need it if they want a job.

Oh absolutely. Most of those applying here have a PharmD, though the quality still varies wildly by program their NAPLEX scores and the MPJE are helpful in keeping quality high. We don't have enough jobs for the number of grads though, even up here.

[FaithManor]

 

 

Look at Laura Ingalls - she passed the exam and got a permit to teach before she was 16!!!!

It was third grade certificate which means she was not tested beyond what would be today 5th/6th grade math, writing level not commensurate with basic essay writing, but did include sentence diagramming though nothing more difficult than what I saw in our 6th/7th grade curriculum at the Lutheran K-8 school when I taught there, did not include any science, but would have included a good bit of regurgitating American History facts and known geography if the examiner had chosen to test her but having heard her history recitation at the school program along with her knowledge of geography during the age of exploration and North American colonization, he gave her grades without testing.

 

It was a definite achievement for the era. That said the test was not as difficult as Michigan's Test of Basic Skills which is far too easy....sigh....so Laura, while a hard worker and definitely well educated for her time was academically underqualified today. Though her reading comprehension, spelling, and grammar skills would allow her to pass the GED, now that the test includes some algebra and geometry, she would not likely pass the math. Looking at the "composition" she wrote in class after returning from her first teaching term which was included in "These Happy Golden Years",scored at 100%, and was considered good enough to qualify for high school graduation - a really uncommon thing in rural areas and especially the territories - it is questionable if she understood the form and structure of a basic five paragraph essay. It was spring time and she was getting married and not returning to school. Her teacher lamented that he had not graduated her as she deserved it and was the top student. That composition is considered 7th grade here. Now I am not saying that all the 7th graders can write on that level (our local ps takes an absolutely stupid approach to teaching writing) but that is the official grade level. So I really don't think she could pass today's GED.

 

It is really hard to compare though. I think the bigger achievement is that she covered the material having not begun formal education before age 8 or 9 and despite her former teacher mother having taken the time to teach favorite daughter Mary to read and do some basic arithmetic, but did not teach Laura - was interrupted in education when pa went east to find work, was interrupted again for several months when the family got Scarlet Fever and she and pa took care of everyone else, was interrupted again for a year when they went west, and again for winter and spring term during the Long Winter, and lost yet another term of instruction when she taught on the claim that was so far away from home that Almanzo fetched her each weekend.

 

More of her education was self studied than formally instructed and all while being relied upon to work like a dog to support the family, and enduring malnutrition during at least one period in "On the Banks of Plum Creek", during "The Long Winter", meager diet though probably caloric intake was okay when she was a paid companion/nanny on another claim, and definite malnutrition as a very young child on the migration to Kansas territory and failed farm there. In addition, there was another interruption when the farm was failing, Pa got a job as a saloon manager in Burr Oak, farmed her out as a nanny and maid at age 9/10, baby Frederic was born and died, the family was again malnourished and even potentially starving, and they skipped town in the middle of the night when pa couldn't pay the rent, landing back at the farm on Plum Creek with almost nothing. That is a lot of formative years without enough food while working very physically hard.

 

She had to have been naturally highly intelligent, if not gifted, with academics coming quite easily for this to have happened.

 

I think that is the amazing achievement! Learning so much in what amounted to 12, three month terms of formal schooling with no indication that pa or ma helped much. In modern times the equivalent of four years of school in a disjointed manner covering what we would call K - 7 in English, K - 6ish in math, 1st - 9th in history, 9th grade level geography, and 1st - 10th potentially up to 12th in reading, while enduring times of near starvation and extreme poverty!

 

What I think is the height of illogical was the spending of money to send Mary to the blind school to learn trade work and hobbies she could never use to help the family or take care of herself - she was already quite adept at self care and housework without formal training - when Laura demonstrated serious skill and ability. For the same money, they could have instead NOT engineered the courtship with Alamanzo, and sent her to teacher's college where she would have been taught some natural science/life science, advanced geography, Latin, algebra, more history, and music notation which would have qualified her to teach at high paying schools thus being being able to take care of herself and still send money home to them. Given they would always have to take care of Mary, and they suspected health problems for Carrie, their plan wasn't particularly rational. But, ma always made sure Mary got the best and Laura settled. I imagine that pa thought that her marrying Manzo meant she would have her own life independent of supporting siblings.

 

I just never understood it. Laura seemed to love studying. It saddened me that they were unwilling to promote her interests. But again another example of looking at history with modern eyes. :D