I feel like a heel... :(

[Mrs_JWM]

My brother finds the rest of our family rather stressful at times. When he comes to visit, he and my mother really butt heads, even if (actually, because of) my mother tries to help him all the time. She's willing to bend over backwards for him, give him money, etc. He thinks this means that we don't think he's capable of doing things for himself. He really tries to disprove this notion by overcompensating and being really brash and bravado-y.

 

He has just moved out to CO, and my mother, daughter, and I were planning to fly out to visit. I talked to him last week and I asked him straight out, "Do we stress you out?" He said we did, and I asked him if it would make things any easier if just my daughter and I came out to visit, and he said he thought that would definitely make a difference.

 

The last time the three of us went to visit him, I felt very torn between trying to make my mother and my brother happy and the trip was difficult. Not terrible, but stressful. We have a bunch of friends I'd like to visit in CO, too, so we'll be busy during the day while they work, but I think not having my mother there will make it easier.

 

I feel terrible about this because my mother and I are extremely close. I decided I would just go for it and tell her what we were planning. Of course she feels very hurt, and I feel awful. She feels like she tries to do so much for my brother and now he doesn't want her to visit. Ugh. Plus, since she doesn't know anyone out there, she's not likely to fly out on her own, although that's not actually my problem, I guess.

 

I did tell her that I think we're always trying to be so careful that sometimes we're not as open as we should be and if just makes things worse. She told me I did a brave thing, which made me cry and feel worse.

 

I'll accept anything you've got, wise Hive. Advice, commiserations, etc.

 

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Edited October 24, 2016 by Mrs_JWM

[Janeway]

You didn't mention if your mother does something that justifies how your brother feels. 

 

One thing..I would not have changed this visit. I would have planned a separate trip. Even if you completely cancel this trip, I would still not exclude your mom. To her, it would feel like she was invited and then uninvited and unloved. That is just not nice. Just completely cancel that trip. And later, plan a trip with just you and your daughter. 

[Guest]

You shouldn't try to influence or augment their relationship in any way other than encouraging them gently and non-intrusively to see one another's side and just accept them as they are*.

 

If you mother plans to visit her son, that's between them, not you.

 

If you plan to visit your brother with your daughter, that's between you, him and her, not your mother.

 

If you all plan to go somewhere together, then it's not your place to change those plans for someone else's sake.

 

*because, really, an independence-minded son and a mother who wants to give you money (!) and help are not huge problems in the grand scheme.

 

Look how you think of yourself as part-and-parcel of your mother, and presumably allowed your brother to so as well by trying to correct their situation:

 

She's willing to bend over backwards for him, give him money, etc. He thinks this means that we don't think he's capable

 

 

[Guest]

And you're not a heel. You're trapped in some unsat dynamics. Time to dig your way out.

[Happy]

If he truly doesn't need her help, then why isn't he gently and firmly refusing her help?

 

I wonder if brother does need help and is merely uncomfortable accepting and acknowledging that fact in front of you.

[Rebel Yell]

You didn't mention if your mother does something that justifies how your brother feels.

 

One thing..I would not have changed this visit. I would have planned a separate trip. Even if you completely cancel this trip, I would still not exclude your mom. To her, it would feel like she was invited and then uninvited and unloved. That is just not nice. Just completely cancel that trip. And later, plan a trip with just you and your daughter.

Question for the OP based on this response:

 

Did your brother invite your mom and/or all of you out to visit, or did you all plan the trip and then inform him of your plans?

 

If he invited all of you to visit, my answer is different than if you decided to make this trip and told him about it later.

 

If you/DD making two separate trips won't work, (one with, one without Mom) could it work to arrive together, maybe for a long weekend, then Mom flies home on her own, giving you time to visit with your other local friends on your own while brother is at work for the rest of the week?

 

And dont feel like a heel. I love my mom but we don't travel well together and absolutely should never share accommodations. Sometimes there is no solution that will make everyone's 100% happy, so hopefully you'll find a good middle ground.

[Carol in Cal.]

I agree that making the plan with your mom and then excluding her is not cool at all.

 

I don't think you should necessarily frame the issue as being that your mom stresses your brother out.  I think that maybe you should frame it as, there are times when everyone would like to be in a bigger group, and times when they would like to be in a smaller one.  It sounds like you yourself are interested in having a more adult to adult rather than sibling to sibling relationship with your brother and would like to spend some time with him alone.  There is nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't exclude your mom from joining a different trip.  But since she is unlikely to see your brother unless you take her, and since you are really close to her, it feels to me like you're taking your relationship with her for granted in trying to build one with your brother that excludes her, and that that will result in her not being able to visit him, which doesn't seem very good.

 

If I were you I would figure out a way to do both--to bring her out there, and to spend some one on one time with your brother.  

[zoobie]

Having a relationship with your brother independent of your mom is healthy. It's not your place to fix her relationship with him. You did the right thing by not lying. Did she already have tickets? It sounds like the "plans" weren't concrete and were just oh we should do something sometime...

[gardenmom5]

you're not a heel.  you care about them both, and you recognize your mother doens't speak your brother's "love language", but makes him feel uncompetent by what she chooses to do.

 

sometimes a parent/child do need a break.  and your brother needs one so he can prove to himself he can fly.

[Mrs_JWM]

Thank you all for your kind, honest, and thoughtful comments. I have done individual things I'd like to respond to - mostly to help me clarify my own thinking - but I want you to know how appreciative I am that you would take the time to reply.

 

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[shawthorne44]

Your mother is saying that she thinks he isn't capable.  She is saying it loudly and clearly.   Maybe what she really means to say is that she thinks he won't love her/have her around if she doesn't do things for him.  

 

Also, you trying to placate everyone was telling your brother that you agree with your mother.  Even though you probably just wanted everyone to get along.  

 

But, moving far away is a really clear signal that he doesn't need or want assistance.   Maybe this will be a wake-up to your mother.  

[gardenmom5]

Your mother is saying that she thinks he isn't capable.  She is saying it loudly and clearly.   Maybe what she really means to say is that she thinks he won't love her/have her around if she doesn't do things for him.  

 

Also, you trying to placate everyone was telling your brother that you agree with your mother.  Even though you probably just wanted everyone to get along.  

 

But, moving far away is a really clear signal that he doesn't need or want assistance.   Maybe this will be a wake-up to your mother.  

 

this.  not saying this is the case with your mom OP, but it might be.  I've known mothers who will *undermine* their own children to keep them dependent upon them.  it is all an ego trip so they will feed "needed".

 

what does your mother do in her free time?  what does she do so she "has a life"?  how wrapped up was she in her children?

 

I am one of those moms who thinks I'm supposed to work myself out of a job (then I can do what I want).  some moms, only want to "be mom" - even if their child is 45.

[kroe1]

My first three thoughts:

 

1. Why are you the overseer of your brother's thoughts. Do you try to do everything for him, too?

2. Your mother, I assume, is old enough to go anywhere she wants, wherever she wants.

3. Why is it your job to tell your mother she stresses out your brother?

[StephanieZ]

I'm sorry, but you feel like a heel because uninvited your mother from visiting her son. That was a doozy. You will need to dig your way out and make this up to the both of them. IMHO.

 

I have just one brother, and our relationship in a triangle with my mom was always been complicated and difficult. Having had a little therapy focused on it over the years, I came to understand the nature of "triangulation" and such that leads these sorts of family relationships to be so interconnected and fraught with peril. I get that it's hard, and that screwing up at times is nearly impossible to avoid. No shame in screwing up, but you need to fix what you can and make amends. 

 

What you must have *meant* to say was that you wanted to visit your brother separately from your mom. This is understandable, and fine, and probably a good idea, but should have not been framed as changing a group visit to one that excludes Mom. (Either you likely should have gone through with THIS group visit and changed it next time, or you should have offered for Mom to do this first visit and you do the next one . . . ) In any event, IMHO, the mom-child relationship/visit takes precedence. Your visit/needs/etc come second. 

 

If your mom isn't able to comfortably travel solo (to go on her own separate visit), then your error is compounded 1,000,000 times, in which case, I think you owe your mom pretty much a billion dollars, lol. Assuming she can travel solo comfortably, then that is what she should do. Separating your visits is probably a good idea. 

 

TBH, if you love both your mom and brother and want to nourish good relationships all around (which it really does sound like you do on both counts), I'd investigate personal therapy to figure out why you did that to your mom and to their relationship, and how to not do something like that again. I am NOT saying this to be mean. 

 

((((hugs))) Believe me, I understand how difficult these things can be. I'm not trying to be mean AT ALL, and I hope I didn't come across that way.

[TranquilMind]

My first three thoughts:

 

1. Why are you the overseer of your brother's thoughts. Do you try to do everything for him, too?

2. Your mother, I assume, is old enough to go anywhere she wants, wherever she wants.

3. Why is it your job to tell your mother she stresses out your brother?

 

I must confess that this is not a place where I would have intervened, asked questions, or certainly told my mother something like that.  The brother and the mother need to work out their own relationship. I'd stay out of that.

 

[mamiof5]

I think actually your brother proved a point. He's not able to take care of his own deals. Maybe he doesn't need financial help, but the relationship between him and mom is for him to deal with, not you.

 

I'd talk to him and let him know I'm apologizing to mom for backing out on her, and I'd probably reschedule my visit until he figures out things with mom.

 

I'm sorry you are in the middle of a messy situation that is not yours to deal with :(

[TammyS]

Honestly, I think you need to get out of their relationship.  There is no win in that situation anywhere, ever.  Let the two of them work it out.  Come up with a line that you say to them when either of them bring the other up, "You really need to be telling that to them, not me. It's unfair to tell a third party stuff, rather than the person you have an issue with."  Or something.  And just repeat it to them over and over, like a broken record. 

 

They are grown ups, make them act like it (or at least stop facilitating their childish behavior).

[Mrs_JWM]

I'm sorry, but you feel like a heel because uninvited your mother from visiting her son. That was a doozy. You will need to dig your way out and make this up to the both of them. IMHO.

 

I have just one brother, and our relationship in a triangle with my mom was always been complicated and difficult. Having had a little therapy focused on it over the years, I came to understand the nature of "triangulation" and such that leads these sorts of family relationships to be so interconnected and fraught with peril. I get that it's hard, and that screwing up at times is nearly impossible to avoid. No shame in screwing up, but you need to fix what you can and make amends. 

 

What you must have *meant* to say was that you wanted to visit your brother separately from your mom. This is understandable, and fine, and probably a good idea, but should have not been framed as changing a group visit to one that excludes Mom. (Either you likely should have gone through with THIS group visit and changed it next time, or you should have offered for Mom to do this first visit and you do the next one . . . ) In any event, IMHO, the mom-child relationship/visit takes precedence. Your visit/needs/etc come second. 

 

If your mom isn't able to comfortably travel solo (to go on her own separate visit), then your error is compounded 1,000,000 times, in which case, I think you owe your mom pretty much a billion dollars, lol. Assuming she can travel solo comfortably, then that is what she should do. Separating your visits is probably a good idea. 

 

TBH, if you love both your mom and brother and want to nourish good relationships all around (which it really does sound like you do on both counts), I'd investigate personal therapy to figure out why you did that to your mom and to their relationship, and how to not do something like that again. I am NOT saying this to be mean. 

 

((((hugs))) Believe me, I understand how difficult these things can be. I'm not trying to be mean AT ALL, and I hope I didn't come across that way.

 

I'm sorry, but you feel like a heel because uninvited your mother from visiting her son. That was a doozy. You will need to dig your way out and make this up to the both of them. IMHO.

 

I have just one brother, and our relationship in a triangle with my mom was always been complicated and difficult. Having had a little therapy focused on it over the years, I came to understand the nature of "triangulation" and such that leads these sorts of family relationships to be so interconnected and fraught with peril. I get that it's hard, and that screwing up at times is nearly impossible to avoid. No shame in screwing up, but you need to fix what you can and make amends. 

 

What you must have *meant* to say was that you wanted to visit your brother separately from your mom. This is understandable, and fine, and probably a good idea, but should have not been framed as changing a group visit to one that excludes Mom. (Either you likely should have gone through with THIS group visit and changed it next time, or you should have offered for Mom to do this first visit and you do the next one . . . ) In any event, IMHO, the mom-child relationship/visit takes precedence. Your visit/needs/etc come second. 

 

If your mom isn't able to comfortably travel solo (to go on her own separate visit), then your error is compounded 1,000,000 times, in which case, I think you owe your mom pretty much a billion dollars, lol. Assuming she can travel solo comfortably, then that is what she should do. Separating your visits is probably a good idea. 

 

TBH, if you love both your mom and brother and want to nourish good relationships all around (which it really does sound like you do on both counts), I'd investigate personal therapy to figure out why you did that to your mom and to their relationship, and how to not do something like that again. I am NOT saying this to be mean. 

 

((((hugs))) Believe me, I understand how difficult these things can be. I'm not trying to be mean AT ALL, and I hope I didn't come across that way.

 

Thank you, Stephanie, for all of this. It was hard to read because there was a lot of truth in it, but I know how you meant it and I truly appreciate what you've said and the care and concern your showed for my feelings.

 

I wish that what I had said was that my daughter and I wanted to visit separately, which was my intention, but I prefaced it with the reason. My brother finds ALL of us stressful, so I was trying to make the group a bit smaller, but I said it in a way that obviously could have been phrased much better. What's funny is that my mother has gone back and forth on going out to visit because my brother has been driving her nuts! In some ways, I'm surprised that she actually wants to go, but it's one thing to choose not to go and another to feel excluded.

 

I have addressed some of these issues in therapy, and they have gotten much better, but they're not perfect.

 

I'm sorry, but you feel like a heel because uninvited your mother from visiting her son. That was a doozy. You will need to dig your way out and make this up to the both of them. IMHO.

 

I have just one brother, and our relationship in a triangle with my mom was always been complicated and difficult. Having had a little therapy focused on it over the years, I came to understand the nature of "triangulation" and such that leads these sorts of family relationships to be so interconnected and fraught with peril. I get that it's hard, and that screwing up at times is nearly impossible to avoid. No shame in screwing up, but you need to fix what you can and make amends. 

 

What you must have *meant* to say was that you wanted to visit your brother separately from your mom. This is understandable, and fine, and probably a good idea, but should have not been framed as changing a group visit to one that excludes Mom. (Either you likely should have gone through with THIS group visit and changed it next time, or you should have offered for Mom to do this first visit and you do the next one . . . ) In any event, IMHO, the mom-child relationship/visit takes precedence. Your visit/needs/etc come second. 

 

If your mom isn't able to comfortably travel solo (to go on her own separate visit), then your error is compounded 1,000,000 times, in which case, I think you owe your mom pretty much a billion dollars, lol. Assuming she can travel solo comfortably, then that is what she should do. Separating your visits is probably a good idea. 

 

TBH, if you love both your mom and brother and want to nourish good relationships all around (which it really does sound like you do on both counts), I'd investigate personal therapy to figure out why you did that to your mom and to their relationship, and how to not do something like that again. I am NOT saying this to be mean. 

 

((((hugs))) Believe me, I understand how difficult these things can be. I'm not trying to be mean AT ALL, and I hope I didn't come across that way.

Thank you, Stephanie, for all of this. It was hard to read because there was a lot of truth in it, but I know how you meant it and I truly appreciate what you've said and the care and concern your showed for my feelings.

 

I wish that what I had said was that my daughter and I wanted to visit separately, which was my intention, but I prefaced it with the reason. My brother finds ALL of us stressful, so I was trying to make the group a bit smaller, but I said it in a way that obviously could have been phrased much better. What's funny is that my mother has gone back and forth on going out to visit because my brother has been driving her nuts! In some ways, I'm surprised that she actually wants to go, but it's one thing to choose not to go and another to feel excluded.

 

I have addressed some of these issues in therapy, and they have gotten much better, but they're not perfect.