So for ultra selective and selective schools, do you count middle school courses?

[Sharon77]

My one kids wants to apply to Dartmouth and UVA.

 

He started Spanish in middle school cause it just worked out better with the tutor and his siblings.  So he finished with Spanish 4 freshman year and Spanish 5 in sophomore year. Took the SAT subject, scored well.

 

That means he will only have 2 years of language for high school. Admissions won't look at just the two years and dismiss him, will they? I am hoping they understand that he stated in middle school?

 

[bettyandbob]

Whether or not a school was "ultra selective", I'd like list all foreign language and math (algebra and above) taken in middle school.

 

The only time I would not is if the university said it didn't consider credits taken in middle school. I know UVA is not in that category. They definitely look at middle school credits in math and foreign language.

 

Are you concerned about language credits specifically. If the student takes the AP in 10th and scores well that is reasonable verification that he took more language. Is there a reason he is stopping. I believe there are two APs in Spanish (language and literature). Could he do DE for higher level Spanish. Is he taking a new language to finish high school.

 

Your child might want to contact these schools since he knows he wants to apply to them specifically.

[8filltheheart]

VA public schools give credit for foreign language in middle school, so UVA will have no problem with it.

 

I include high school credits from middle school on my kids' transcripts and it has never been an issue.

[Heather in VA]

Are you in-state or out-of-state for VA?

[regentrude]

You can include high school courses taken before 9th grade on your transcript.

That said, I could imagine a highly selective college wanting to see that the student continued to challenge himself. I would continue the language at a higher level throughout high school and not settle for merely fulfilling the formal requirements.

Edited October 21, 2016 by regentrude

[The Governess]

Following this thread. Dd will earn 5 middle school credits in foreign language (3 Chinese, 2 Latin). Her plan is to continue with them after taking AP exams in 9th and 10th, although I still need to figure out what that will look like. For Latin she will likely just have some reading to do. For Chinese, she will read and practice conversing with a native speaker. There are absolutely no classes in my area that would allow her to pursue these languages past the AP level, so my hope is for her to maintain them until she is able to continue her studies at a university, if desired. I'm guessing she will only earn .25 to .5 credits per year for each language after taking the AP exams, unless I can find higher level classes online that she can continue with.

 

We may also look into summer immersion-type programs.

 

She also wants to study French once she is done with Latin.....

[wapiti]

My understanding is that they will look more for the level of language completed than the credits though it is easy for home schoolers to make a custom transcript with a category for high school courses completed in middle school (most B&M students will not have these courses on the transcript AFAIK; e.g. my dd's private high school wouldn't do that).

 

I agree w/regentrude that going through level 4 and/or AP level would look best for the student who completed early levels in middle school. I would look at the common data set for the schools to try to figure out how necessary AP foreign lang would be for a competitive applicant.

Edited October 21, 2016 by wapiti

[snowbeltmom]

 

If the student is not interested in studying foreign languages, I think it is perfectly acceptable to stop after having met the minimum requirement. There are many ways a student can challenge himself without studying a foreign language all four years of high school.

 

My son had three years of Latin on his transcript, hated every second of it, and stopped when he had fulfilled the requirement in 10th grade. He was accepted to every college he applied, including two considered "lottery schools."

 

Good luck in the application process!

Edited October 21, 2016 by snowbeltmom

[8filltheheart]

Following this thread. Dd will earn 5 middle school credits in foreign language (3 Chinese, 2 Latin). Her plan is to continue with them after taking AP exams in 9th and 10th, although I still need to figure out what that will look like. For Latin she will likely just have some reading to do. For Chinese, she will read and practice conversing with a native speaker. There are absolutely no classes in my area that would allow her to pursue these languages past the AP level, so my hope is for her to maintain them until she is able to continue her studies at a university, if desired. I'm guessing she will only earn .25 to .5 credits per year for each language after taking the AP exams, unless I can find higher level classes online that she can continue with.

 

We may also look into summer immersion-type programs.

 

She also wants to study French once she is done with Latin.....

My Dd has 7 French credits and never took the AP exam. She is significantly beyond AP level. She gets full credit for her courses. She self-taught herself French until last yr. It is possible to give them credits for courses completed at home. You could look for a Skype tutor to practice speaking and grading compositions. She complete readings and watching the news or movies in Chinese independently.

[bettyandbob]

If the student is not interested in studying foreign languages, I think it is perfectly acceptable to stop after having met the minimum requirement. There are many ways a student can challenge himself without studying a foreign language all four years of high school.

 

My son had three years of Latin on his transcript, hated every second of it, and stopped when he had fulfilled the requirement in 10th grade. He was accepted to every college he applied, including two considered "lottery schools."

 

Good luck in the application process!

Obviously, this depends on the university AND whether the student shows significant challenge in other subjects.

[snowbeltmom]

Yes. The student needs to show significant challenge. As long as the minimum requirement is met, I don't think an acceptance or rejection willl be the result of not studying a foreign language all four years.

[GoodGrief]

In that case, yes, I would probably list the middle school courses, and possibly offer an explanation in the Additional Information section. I would add any supplementary language work he has done since the last course in that section too...trip to Spanish-speaking country or whatever.

 

Good luck with Dartmouth! It was in my daughter's top 3 last year, but ultimately she chose elsewhere. Beautiful area.

[GoodGrief]

"There are absolutely no classes in my area that would allow her to pursue these languages past the AP level, so my hope is for her to maintain them until she is able to continue her studies at a university, if desired."

 

FWIW, I have a daughter who did Chinese with a tutor from age 10, and is studying it (along with engineering) at Princeton now. We did not have a lot of options here either (remote state), though she managed to get one university class (the second semester was cancelled.)

 

You might be surprised at how difficult the AP Chinese exam is; many heritage speakers take it, and the expectations are high. If she is continuing Chinese through high school, I would leave the middle school courses off altogether, and call 9th grade "Mandarin 3" or something similar that indicates there was previous work done, and advance the course number each year. Personally I'd hold off on that particular AP exam until late high school, unless she's had a significant amount of feedback that she is truly strong in her tones and such.

[Lori D.]

My one kids wants to apply to Dartmouth and UVA.

 

He started Spanish in middle school cause it just worked out better with the tutor and his siblings.  So he finished with Spanish 4 freshman year and Spanish 5 in sophomore year. Took the SAT subject, scored well.

 

That means he will only have 2 years of language for high school. Admissions won't look at just the two years and dismiss him, will they? I am hoping they understand that he stated in middle school?

 

From post #35 in your other thread -- Dartmouth and UVA both expect 4 credits of foreign language, and UVA *recommends* 5 credits of foreign language.

 

You can create a section on your transcript for "High School Courses Completed Prior to High School", and include the Spanish 1-3 credits there. Other courses that could be placed there are maths that are Algebra 1 and above, or sciences that are Biology or above.

 

Or, you could list the Spanish 1-3 credits in the foreign language section of your transcript, but note that they were completed before high school, so that they are not included in the GPA, but that way the admissions office sees the 5 credits. I would also include the SAT Subject score there as well to show verification of "topping out" in Spanish.

 

Another — and more competitive for admissions option — might be to pursue some Spanish courses via dual enrollment/dual credit at the local university that could work towards a possible minor in Spanish in college. That would allow DS to have 4+ credits of Spanish language course work taken during the high school years, as the dual enrollment would accrue at a rate of 1 college semester = 1 credit on high school transcript.

 

Or, another option would be for DS to take 2 years of a another foreign language, which would give him a total of 4 credits of foreign language taken during high school -- Spanish that was "topped out", plus 2 years of a second foreign language. Again, that could be done as dual enrollment, so 2 semesters = 2 credits.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Lori D.

[Heather in VA]

UVA will expect you to take any AP exam where the transcript indicates achievement at that level. SAT Subject tests are necessary as well but won't be a substitute for taking the AP exam. They hold those in very high regard. Typically kids accepted will have 8 - 10 AP exams. Again, how many can vary depending on in-state or out and where you live in VA, but if a class of that level is on the transcript, they will expect the AP exam. 

[The Governess]

My Dd has 7 French credits and never took the AP exam. She is significantly beyond AP level. She gets full credit for her courses. She self-taught herself French until last yr. It is possible to give them credits for courses completed at home. You could look for a Skype tutor to practice speaking and grading compositions. She complete readings and watching the news or movies in Chinese independently.

Thank you! It is really encouraging to hear that your daughter was able to study on her own to such a high level. Watching the news in Chinese is a great idea. I am also compiling a library of Chinese books, starting with easy readers with limited vocabulary and going up from there. I would need to find a good tutor who is comfortable teaching at that level and can keep her engaged. She is a social learner and a classroom setting would be more ideal for her, but lessons with the right tutor may be a good second option.

 

I'm not fluent in anything but English so I feel a bit out of my league with high-level language studies!

[The Governess]

"There are absolutely no classes in my area that would allow her to pursue these languages past the AP level, so my hope is for her to maintain them until she is able to continue her studies at a university, if desired."

 

FWIW, I have a daughter who did Chinese with a tutor from age 10, and is studying it (along with engineering) at Princeton now. We did not have a lot of options here either (remote state), though she managed to get one university class (the second semester was cancelled.)

 

You might be surprised at how difficult the AP Chinese exam is; many heritage speakers take it, and the expectations are high. If she is continuing Chinese through high school, I would leave the middle school courses off altogether, and call 9th grade "Mandarin 3" or something similar that indicates there was previous work done, and advance the course number each year. Personally I'd hold off on that particular AP exam until late high school, unless she's had a significant amount of feedback that she is truly strong in her tones and such.

Thanks for this. I have been told by many different tutors/teachers that her pronunciation is good. Hopefully they were being honest! ;)

 

She has been studying Chinese since she was four. She did a year of preschool at a Chinese Saturday school (which was overkill, and hard to work with as a non-speaking parent). Then we self studied from age 5-7. From age 7-9 she took classes through CTY and covered the same books that I have seen high schools in our state using for Chinese 1-3. Last year she worked through the first book of Integrated Chinese with a tutor. This year she wanted to try something different, so she is taking Chinese through Florida Virtual School. It will really be her second time taking Chinese 1-3. She is flying through the curriculum and enjoying having varied assignments rather than just studying a text. Of course, I do plan to check in with her teachers to make sure she is ready for the AP before I sign her up for a class at that level and the exam. There is also an AP prep class at an academic center in our area that I hope she will be able to participate in. We will see as we get closer when the best time is for her to take it.

Edited October 21, 2016 by lovelearnandlive

[regentrude]

UVA will expect you to take any AP exam where the transcript indicates achievement at that level. SAT Subject tests are necessary as well but won't be a substitute for taking the AP exam. They hold those in very high regard. Typically kids accepted will have 8 - 10 AP exams. Again, how many can vary depending on in-state or out and where you live in VA, but if a class of that level is on the transcript, they will expect the AP exam. 

 

My DD got accepted to UVA without a single AP exam or course.

[8filltheheart]

My DD got accepted to UVA without a single AP exam or course.

I agree.

 

I don't think my dd is going to face any problem with universities accepting her language levels. She has had depts tell her not to attend bc she is at their college graduation levels at the beginning of 12th grade.

 

There is more than 1 way to validate academic level. I think being 1 of 5 students in the country selected to represent the US in a foreign language Olympiad demonstrates slightly more achievement than an AP exam. She doesn't have a single AP exam. We are not concerned.

[bettyandbob]

My DD got accepted to UVA without a single AP exam or course.

Yes. However you did show depth and challenge other ways. Didn't your DD do extension DE.

 

Simply saying she got in without a single AP is not telling the whole story. Kids from my local public school get in without a single AP either. That's because it's an IB school.

 

We visited UVA. (Nice school, but didn't make my dd's list of applications) Their admissions people were specific about wanting documented challenge by either AP, IB, or DE.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Diana P.

[regentrude]

Yes. However you did show depth and challenge other ways. Didn't your DD do extension DE.

Simply saying she got in without a single AP is not telling the whole story. Kids from my local public school get in without a single AP either. That's because it's an IB school.

We visited UVA. (Nice school, but didn't make my dad's list of applications) Their admissions people were specific about wanting documented challenge by either AP, IB, or DE.

 

I was responding to the poster who specifically stated "UVA will expect you to take any AP exam where the transcript indicates achievement at that level. "

 

I never said one did not need to have any kind of validation. Just that this validation does not need to come in the form of AP as the post to which I replied might suggest. 

Edited October 21, 2016 by regentrude

[Heather in VA]

I was responding to the poster who specifically stated "UVA will expect you to take any AP exam where the transcript indicates achievement at that level. "

 

I never said one did not need to have any kind of validation. Just that this validation does not need to come in the form of AP as the post to which I replied might suggest. 

 

I was the one who said that and the OP would, IMHO, still need some kind of validation to help boost her transcript in terms of UVA. The question referred to finishing her foreign language in 10th grade and having 5 credits on the transcript. There was no reference to IB/AP exams or DE. I assumed since she planned to stop the studies she wouldn't be pursuing additional studies via DE so I would highly recommend taking the AP exam even though she's already done the SAT subject test. 

 

Of course this is all in a vacuum without knowing anything about test scores, other course work, extra curricular (a big emphasis for UVA) or all those other things.  

[Gwen in VA]

 

UVA will expect you to take any AP exam where the transcript indicates achievement at that level. SAT Subject tests are necessary as well but won't be a substitute for taking the AP exam. They hold those in very high regard. Typically kids accepted will have 8 - 10 AP exams. Again, how many can vary depending on in-state or out and where you live in VA, but if a class of that level is on the transcript, they will expect the AP exam.

 

Just to echo Heather, it is possible to be accepted to UVA with less than 8-10 AP's. My ds was accepted to UVA as an Echols Scholar with "only" 5 AP's. He only had two years of Latin and three years of Greek -- he had no fourth year of a foreign language.

 

BTW, much to our surprise my dd was accepted as a Monroe Scholar at W&M with only two years of Latin in high school (Latin 2 and Latin 3). We listed her Latin 1 (alongside her Algebra 1) as 8th grade classes on her transcript. We did not give a grade for those classes but just listed them and the credit given for it. (That's how my high school handled foreign languages and Algebra back in the 80's.)

 

I strongly recommend multiple SAT-2 tests and some college classes (if possible).

[Melabella]

My DD got accepted to UVA without a single AP exam or course.

Did you provide a new explanation as to why AP tests were not taken?

[Melabella]

My DD got accepted to UVA without a single AP exam or course.

Did you provide an explanation as to why no AP tests were taken?

Edited October 23, 2016 by Melabella

[regentrude]

Did you provide an explanation as to why no AP tests were taken?

 

Briefly in one sentence in the counselor's letter: 

"Because she thrives in a classroom atmosphere with fellow students and a live instructor, she has chosen to take in-seat college courses for her advanced coursework, instead of independent study for AP exams. "

[Melabella]

Thank you regentrude. I will need to state something similar for my dd. She will have 30 credit hours through DE at a local university's honors college, but no AP tests.

[swimmermom3]

I agree.

 

I don't think my dd is going to face any problem with universities accepting her language levels. She has had depts tell her not to attend bc she is at their college graduation levels at the beginning of 12th grade.

 

There is more than 1 way to validate academic level. I think being 1 of 5 students in the country selected to represent the US in a foreign language Olympiad demonstrates slightly more achievement than an AP exam. She doesn't have a single AP exam. We are not concerned.

 

Sigh. I hear the AP scorn loud and long. Truly I do. Repeatedly.  AP is "school at home."  Translation, genuine homeschoolers are creative, gifted people that excel at teaching the unusual, brilliant, and challenging course. Everything else is just - well, meh.

 

Yes, admittance to highly selective schools without AP may be more difficult, but those of you that have done it, also often have students that have an exceptional gift whether they are talented linguists, brilliant mathematicians, or are working on research with recognized scientists by the time they are 12. Of course you are not concerned.

 

Occasionally, mere mortal students and teachers may need to use a more mundane way of "validating" course challenge. DE can be a great route, but sometimes university classes are not readily accessible or affordable and CC classes may offer next to no advantage to a well done course offered at home.

 

The beauty of homeschooling is that there are many pathways that are suited to our students' goals and our abilities as teachers/facilitators.

 

[8filltheheart]

Sigh. I hear the AP scorn loud and long. Truly I do. Repeatedly. AP is "school at home." Translation, genuine homeschoolers are creative, gifted people that excel at teaching the unusual, brilliant, and challenging course. Everything else is just - well, meh.

 

Yes, admittance to highly selective schools without AP may be more difficult, but those of you that have done it, also often have students that have an exceptional gift whether they are talented linguists, brilliant mathematicians, or are working on research with recognized scientists by the time they are 12. Of course you are not concerned.

 

Occasionally, mere mortal students and teachers may need to use a more mundane way of "validating" course challenge. DE can be a great route, but sometimes university classes are not readily accessible or affordable and CC classes may offer next to no advantage to a well done course offered at home.

 

The beauty of homeschooling is that there are many pathways that are suited to our students' goals and our abilities as teachers/facilitators.

 

Lisa,

 

I would say you took my comment out of context, but either way, I am sorry if it offended you. I didn't mean for it to offend anyone.

 

I have had kids take APs. I have had kids DE. Most of them, as a matter of fact. This Dd marches to her own drummer and didn't want to do either. She wanted complete freedom to study subjects her own way. My comment was simply affirming her choice. Her transcript doesn't have either. Most of her courses in no way reflect an AP equivalent or DE equivalent. But, by no definition are her classes less than. Her transcript and course descriptions reflect that.

 

Heather's comment, "UVA will expect you to take any AP exam where the transcript indicates achievement at that level," was shortly after my post about Dd being significantly beyond French AP level but never having taken th AP exam. In that post I wasn't even discussing APs as APs. I was encouraging a mom who was thinking she needed an outside course for her Dd to continue her studies and felt like her Dd wouldn't be able to progress bc they couldn't find one. I was trying to share ways in which language acquisition can occur without a typical classroom approach bc they can.

 

It is also possible for students to have ways to demonstrate ability without replicating traditional classroom sequences. Even if my Dd hadn't made the US team, which she only found out about last week so most of her applications were submitted without that information, her transcript would still not have any APs or DE classes. Her transcript reflects her and that was her choice. She did utilize homeschooling to create a completely unique educational experience for herself. Her college applications are a celebration of her achievements bc of who she is and what she chose to do.

 

That isn't a comment about what other students do.

[snowbeltmom]

When reading other posters' advice and experiences, I think it is important to keep in mind whether their advice and experiences are relevant to your own situation.  For the vast majority of schools, especially the big state schools, a strong SAT or ACT score is all that is required to gain an acceptance. 

 

If you have a student applying to a school that has "holistic" admissions, it takes much more than a high SAT/ACT score, and AP scores are the preferred currency.  If your student is interested in an Ivy, the board member Muttichen, imo, would be the person to reach out to for advice.  She has had great success navigating the Ivy admission process.  (She also has her kids take the AP exam even if her child took the class at a college.)

 

 

 

[regentrude]

When reading other posters' advice and experiences, I think it is important to keep in mind whether their advice and experiences are relevant to your own situation.  For the vast majority of schools, especially the big state schools, a strong SAT or ACT score is all that is required to gain an acceptance. 

 

 

True - but the thread title specifically says "ultra selective schools". So, a strong SAT score is a necessity, but far from sufficient. Most of the 90+% rejected applicants will have strong scores as well.

Edited October 25, 2016 by regentrude

[snowbeltmom]

True - but the thread title specifically says "ultra selective schools". So, a strong SAT score is a necessity, but far from sufficient. Most of the 90+% rejected applicants will have strong scores as well.

 

That was the point of my post, but you didn't quote the rest of my post that addressed that issue.  If you have a student applying to an Ivy, you need to validate some of the transcript grades either with college grades or AP scores.  However, as I said in my prior post, AP scores are the preferred currency.

 

 

[Kathy in Richmond]

When reading other posters' advice and experiences, I think it is important to keep in mind whether their advice and experiences are relevant to your own situation.  For the vast majority of schools, especially the big state schools, a strong SAT or ACT score is all that is required to gain an acceptance. 

 

If you have a student applying to a school that has "holistic" admissions, it takes much more than a high SAT/ACT score, and AP scores are the preferred currency.  If your student is interested in an Ivy, the board member Muttichen, imo, would be the person to reach out to for advice.  She has had great success navigating the Ivy admission process.  (She also has her kids take the AP exam even if her child took the class at a college.)

 

Yes, yes, yes!

 

Muttichen gives terrific advice for ivy league admissions. I have another homeschooling friend (who doesn't post here or anywhere online) whose kids were accepted at top ivies like Muttichen's kids. She used much the same approach: dual enrollment verified by lots of AP testing, along with meaningful national level awards. She had no qualms about calling the adcoms at Harvard and elsewhere, & they told her outright that they preferred to see AP scores.

 

When my oldest was approaching college admissions & expressed an interest in MIT, I reached out to parents whose kids had successfully been admitted there. Back then, I found them in the hs2col yahoo group. Their advice was invaluable to us!

Back to the OP's original question: Yes, I did count middle school coursework in math, science, and foreign language on the high school transcript.

[Reefgazer]

My district counts credits and grades of high school courses in middle school and I plan to do the same.  DD is planning on applying to Cornell; if they don't like that I counted them, they can re-calculate without the middle school grades as we will have enough credit to graduate high school without middle school grades.

[mirabillis]

Yes, yes, yes!

 

Muttichen gives terrific advice for ivy league admissions. I have another homeschooling friend (who doesn't post here or anywhere online) whose kids were accepted at top ivies like Muttichen's kids. She used much the same approach: dual enrollment verified by lots of AP testing, along with meaningful national level awards. She had no qualms about calling the adcoms at Harvard and elsewhere, & they told her outright that they preferred to see AP scores.

 

 

So if we achieve a high amount of AP courses with good AP exam scores, how many DE courses do we really need? We're planning 2 APs 9th grade, 2-3 10th grade, 4 11th grade, and probably 2-3 12th grade. Do DE courses really help - or are they not necessary through 9-12 if you have heavy course load of APs?

 

So in other words, how many DE courses should we be looking to complete, alongside a high number of APs? And if some, in what subjects are best?

[Kathy in Richmond]

So if we achieve a high amount of AP courses with good AP exam scores, how many DE courses do we really need? We're planning 2 APs 9th grade, 2-3 10th grade, 4 11th grade, and probably 2-3 12th grade. Do DE courses really help - or are they not necessary through 9-12 if you have heavy course load of APs?

 

So in other words, how many DE courses should we be looking to complete, alongside a high number of APs? And if some, in what subjects are best?

I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because my kids had zero DE courses. Why? For us, it was just not worth the cost, time spent commuting, and local course quality. We preferred working at home and taking a few high quality online classes (AoPS and PA Homeschool AP mostly).

 

I do think it's important to show ability to work with others in a classroom or group setting for highly competitive schools, but this can be done in a variety of ways besides DE. My kids attended summer math camps, and each had a camp mentor write a letter of recommendation for them when they applied to college.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Kathy in Richmond