TheAttachedMama Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Hello, My 4th-grade son is going through Junior Analytical Grammar. He is to the unit on pronouns, and we are both having trouble wrapping our heads around interrogative pronouns. Often, these words seem to act like adjectives to me! Can anyone help explain these to me so that I can explain them to my son? I feel like my understanding is foggy to say the least. Example: Whosever dirty socks these are, better pick them up! In this sentence, is "whosever" a pronoun?? Or is it an adjective describing socks? I am lost. I am terrible in grammar, and I feel like my son is needing more help than I can provide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Hello, My 4th-grade son is going through Junior Analytical Grammar. He is to the unit on pronouns, and we are both having trouble wrapping our heads around interrogative pronouns. Often, these words seem to act like adjectives to me! Can anyone help explain these to me so that I can explain them to my son? I feel like my understanding is foggy to say the least. Example: Whosever dirty socks these are, better pick them up! In this sentence, is "whosoever" a pronoun?? Or is it an adjective describing socks? I am lost. I am terrible in grammar, and I feel like my son is needing more help than I can provide. What an awkward sentence to work with. :blink: No one except King James uses "whosoever." Well, hardly anyone. :-) I would be lost, as well, and it is not that I am terrible at grammar. Surely, that is not the right word to use in that sentence... but if I had to hazard a guess, I would say that it is a pronoun. It is not modifying "socks" in any way, so it wouldn't be an adjective. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Difference Between Interrogative Pronoun and Interrogative Adjective Interrogative adjectives are always followed by a noun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Tick Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 AG lists "whosoever" as a possessive pronoun. Does JAG have a similar list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I know "whosoever" is a word, but I'm pretty sure "whosever" is slang, for "the unknown individual who can be identified as the owner of an object" -- a nice shorthand for casual speech, but fairly confusing in the grammatical sense. It makes more sense to write, "The person who owns these socks needs to pick them up." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica_in_Switzerland Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 You can replace "whosever" with "John's" in my mind, so it's a possessive pronoun here. Of course, we usually wouldn't say, "John's dirty socks these are, better pick them up!" we'd say, "These are John's dirty socks, better pick them up!", but the word order is part of the implied question of ownership. And I use whosever all the time in a very similar sentence... lol. "Whosever stuff this is all over the table better pick it up if they won't want it in the garbage!" :-) A good test is to replace with a noun. If it works, you've got a pronoun. Replace with a possessive adjective, and you've got an adjective. Who wants to eat a green smoothie? --> John wants to eat a green smoothie. =PRONOUN Whose fault is it that the glass broke? John's fault is it that the glass broke. (It is John's fault that the glass broke.) = POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVE But if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to learn, so please correct me! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nansk Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 A good test is to replace with a noun. If it works, you've got a pronoun. Replace with a possessive adjective, and you've got an adjective. Who wants to eat a green smoothie? --> John wants to eat a green smoothie. =PRONOUN Whose fault is it that the glass broke? John's fault is it that the glass broke. (It is John's fault that the glass broke.) = POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVE But if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to learn, so please correct me! Your examples are correct. From the link I quoted above: Interrogative pronouns can stand on their own. Interrogative adjectives are always followed by a noun. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 I know "whosoever" is a word, but I'm pretty sure "whosever" is slang, for "the unknown individual who can be identified as the owner of an object" -- a nice shorthand for casual speech, but fairly confusing in the grammatical sense. It makes more sense to write, "The person who owns these socks needs to pick them up." I just did some checking. I can find the word whosoever in every dictionary I own, and I find no mention of it being slang or informal. It is indeed a real word. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) OK.....YET another pronoun question. I am really struggling with teaching this unit because my understanding is so foggy. The other sentence that we are struggling with is: Team sports and those that we do by ourselves are good for us. We both missed "that" as a pronoun. We were able to identify the pronouns "those", "we", "ourselves" and "us". Why is "that" a pronoun. What is the antecedent of that word? I'm trying to replace it with a noun, but can't think of one where it would make sense. Edited October 21, 2016 by TheAttachedMama Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 (edited) I just did some checking. I can find the word whosoever in every dictionary I own, and I find no mention of it being slang or informal. It is indeed a real word. :)Yes *whosoever" (who-so-ever) is a generally accepted word. I mentioned that. *Whosever* (who's-ever) or (whose-ever) is -- as far as I know -- slang, or a regional dialect. Slang and regional dialects are important (and "real") parts of language. They also sometimes present challenges to formal grammar studies. Edited October 21, 2016 by bolt. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted October 21, 2016 Author Share Posted October 21, 2016 You can replace "whosever" with "John's" in my mind, so it's a possessive pronoun here. Of course, we usually wouldn't say, "John's dirty socks these are, better pick them up!" we'd say, "These are John's dirty socks, better pick them up!", but the word order is part of the implied question of ownership. And I use whosever all the time in a very similar sentence... lol. "Whosever stuff this is all over the table better pick it up if they won't want it in the garbage!" :-) A good test is to replace with a noun. If it works, you've got a pronoun. Replace with a possessive adjective, and you've got an adjective. Who wants to eat a green smoothie? --> John wants to eat a green smoothie. =PRONOUN Whose fault is it that the glass broke? John's fault is it that the glass broke. (It is John's fault that the glass broke.) = POSSESSIVE ADJECTIVE But if I'm wrong, I'd be happy to learn, so please correct me! Monica, can I just say that I heart you! You described a great process that is really proving helpful to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikslo Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 OK.....YET another pronoun question. I am really struggling with teaching this unit because my understanding is so foggy. The sentence we are working with is this: All of us were born with bodies which are made to move and work and play. According to the answer key, the word "All" is a pronoun. However, my son contends that "all" describes the pronoun "us" and tells us how many of "us"....therefore it is an adjective. Why is it a pronoun and not an adjective?? ETA: The good news is that he was able to identify the "WHICH" in that sentences as an interrogative pronoun. So we are making progress. However, now we are struggling with the idea of indefinite pronouns. "Of us" is a prepositional phrase. Remove it from the sentence and you have: All were born. All is the subject, so a noun or a pronoun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xahm Posted October 21, 2016 Share Posted October 21, 2016 Try replacing that with sports. OK.....YET another pronoun question. I am really struggling with teaching this unit because my understanding is so foggy. The other sentence that we are struggling with is: Team sports and those that we do by ourselves are good for us. We both missed "that" as a pronoun. We were able to identify the pronouns "those", "we", "ourselves" and "us". Why is "that" a pronoun. What is the antecedent of that word? I'm trying to replace it with a noun, but can't think of one where it would make sense. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carra Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 I think that=sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carra Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Team sports and those sports we do by ourselves are good for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted November 4, 2016 Author Share Posted November 4, 2016 Do I understand correctly? So the hive is saying that the antecedent for the words "those" and "that" are both sports? Team sports and those that we do by ourselves are good for us. Team sports and sports sports we do by ourselves are good for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8filltheheart Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 (edited) Do I understand correctly? So the hive is saying that the antecedent for the words "those" and "that" are both sports? Team sports and those that we do by ourselves are good for us. Team sports and sports sports we do by ourselves are good for us. I disagree that the word "that" is functioning as a pronoun in that sentence. I would define it as a conjunction. I read the sentence as those as the pronoun for sports. I would look at the sentence this way, "Team sports and those we do by ourselves are good for us." The sentence does not require "that" to replace sports. It can still be understood without including "that." 2. Conjunction Sometimes, “that†can also serve as a conjunction by combining two clauses. For instance, in the sentence: “I bought the materials that are required for the project.†“That“ is used to introduce the clause “…are required for the project.†It combines the dependent clause with the independent clause, “I bought the materials…†Definition: a. used to introduce a clause that is the subject or object of a verb Examples: He said that he was hungry. b. used to introduce a clause that completes or explains the meaning of a previous noun or adjective or of the pronoun it Examples: She was so exhausted that she couldn’t think straight. c. used to introduce a clause that states a reason or purpose Examples: The boss seems pleased that I wanted to pursue with the training.http://partofspeech.org/what-part-of-speech-is-that/ Usually those "thats" are removable as being understood. Look at the sentence "She was so exhausted that she couldn’t think straight." People often say (that ;)) they are so exhausted they can't think straight. ( which I currently am, so don't count on my answer being correct. It is just what my gut reaction was without really thinking about it.) Edited November 4, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAttachedMama Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Yes, I agree that you don't need the word "that" in the sentence. If you remove the word "that", it still makes perfect sense. So it does seem like an extra word thrown in. I like your explanation that "that" is a conjunction. Maybe I should email the teachers from Analytical Grammar and ask them to give their reasoning for their teaching? I am still confused. ----------------------- Here is another sample sentence that is confusing to me: (We are supposed to identify the pronouns) Anybody can play sports, regardless of who he is. According to the answer key, the pronouns are: Anybody, who, and he. I understand why "Anybody" is a pronoun. That is easy. I could replace that with a people group like the proper noun "Americans." But what would the antecedent of "who" be? I'm trying to figure out a noun that I could replace that word with and have it make sense. It seems like it would have the same antecedent of "he". right??? I tried using the "John" trick that Monica taught me above...so would the sentence (without pronouns) be somethng like..... Americans can play sports, regardless of John John is. I am to the point where I can identify interrogative pronouns when they are followed by a verb. (Example: Who is there?) I am to the point where I can identify demonstrative pronouns when they are followed by a verb. (Example: That was a cat.) But, when they show up in the middle of the sentence, I am in trouble! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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