Extreme silliness during school for Autistic child

[Mtngrace]

My daughter was recently diagnosed with Autism, ADHD, and anxiety. She has sensory issues as well. How do you handle the extreme silliness that sometimes disrupts school. It's like I just have to stop everything we are doing and change around things. I sometimes have to do OT type stuff which has also been getting hard to get her to do as well. She is high functioning but sometimes school gets drug out all day from off and on silly behaviors. She had a math tutor the other day and she was silly and almost rude the whole time. The tutor didn't know how to get her out of it. I know it's sensory issues. She gets bored so fast and just spins out of control.

[PeterPan]

You could refine that.  It's not a sensory issue but a self-regulation issue.  Do you have an OT who can do Zones of Regulation with her?  Is she receiving ABA?

 

So your gut is right that sensory can be a tool to help, but it's more than that.  This is your time to bring in explicit instruction in social thinking, self-regulation, etc.  

Edited October 16, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[wapiti]

FWIW, this is probably out of left field, but the first thing that pops into my head when I hear extreme silliness is yeast, or at least the legend of yeast, IYKWIM.

[Lecka]

Totally just my take, but it sounds like escape/avoidance to escape/avoid (or delay) non-preferred tasks. My son is very prone to that. If he is allowed to jump on a trampoline instead of do what he is supposed to do, because he is squirming around, then he will squirm around.

 

I am not saying he never could need a sensory break for sensory reasons, but he can do this also.

 

My son is not so much one for attention-seeking behavior, but it could be that, too.

 

Also sensory.

 

I think you need more than one hypothesis.

 

Sensory is one hypothesis, and yes it is the whole answer for some kids.

 

But there could be more added in at times, that can look the same as sensory at times.

 

You can try to take ABC data (antecedent, behavior, consequence) and see if this helps you see what some more hypotheses might be, or see patterns with the sensory.

 

Ideally you want to do sensory activities before they are needed so that there is a better routine built up.

 

Other ideas are working with a timer, setting mini-goals, have a preferred activity set up for after a mini-goal is reached, etc.

 

This is all ABA type stuff.

 

If you are looking at OT, you do want someone who will think about how to have a schedule (or order) where things are done proactively. If they are done reactively it can set up kids to learn that if they act in x way, it only do they do the helpful sensory activity, they also either get attention or escape/delay the current task. To avoid that you want to give the attention before it gets to that point, or do the sensory thing before the other activity, possibly.

[Targhee]

My ADHD kids get silly when they're avoiding or anxious. It's a coping mechanism.

[Mtngrace]

We have an OT that comes once a week and does exercises with her. We try to do them three times a day and I have noticed the weighted vest helps as well. She will also get silly with the OT and start saying inappropriate things like butt and fart. The OT says it's almost like her adrenaline is so high and it's a fight or flight response and she can't down regulate. I do think she is also doing it when anxious or stressed and wanting to get out of the situations like with math. I will try to stay on top of the OT exercises. She hates the trampoline. She says it hurts her head.

[Lecka]

Is the OT able to get her back on track? If not -- I don't think you will get a solution there. I am not saying it is bad, just many people need additions to OT.

 

This is my opinion. I think you can go two directions, maybe.

 

One, you can investigate anxiety. I hear numbers like 1/3 of children with ASD will have anxiety, and that it gets more common with kids who are higher functioning. There are programs you can look at on the Social Thinking website. You could see a therapist or counselor who works with anxiety (and ASD).

 

Two, you could look at ABA. It also addresses the regulation issues.

 

I don't know if you have options for more professional help, or if you need to be more DIY. But where I live these would be two main options to look in to.

 

It doesn't take anything away from sensory, but it doesn't sound like sensory is providing everything she needs right now. There can just be more components to difficult things like regulation. More support can make thing easier on her and reduce her stress (ideally).

Edited October 17, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

Bribery.

 

I know parents hate resorting to bribery.  But really, that's what works for us.

 

DD6 is not diagnosed yet, but she's receiving OT for freeding issues right now. And when the OT puts something down in front of her she doesn't want to eat (or be near) she will get up and try to leave...or stomp her feet and shout how she's "busy" ...or just sit there and keep repeating "nope!  No thanks!  Nope!  No thanks!"  The OT will say "if you want your brown tootsie roll at the end, you need to do your work."  And it is almost like magic.

 

... And then, schedule those types of breaks throughout the day.  So, maybe after breakfast, you have her jump on the trampoline for 15 minutes, then bring her back inside and do reading and math.  Then, take another 15 minute break to swing on the swing set or something.  Then do writing and spelling.  Then, another 15 minutes to take a walk.  You get the idea. 

 

There could be several things going on there, but I want to point out you (smiley) might not be interpreting accurately what you're seeing.  Technically that's not bribery.  The therapist has found a motivator and has told the dc what she will receive if she is compliant.  If the dc is compliant, at the end she receives the candy.  It was a clear contract from the beginning.  Comply with my demand, get this good thing you want.  When the dc was failing to comply, the therapist reminded the dc that she has this goal she's working toward and that she loses the privilege, loses the reward, by failing to comply.  These are standard things to do.

 

Bribery would be the therapist in a pinch, child not complying, and the therapist whips out a tootsie roll and says oh but I have a tootsie roll, won't you please work for nice me... 

 

It's not splitting hairs.  The point is who has control.  If the therapist is in control and she found what motivates the dc and she set up a contract where the dc follows the rules and has earned privileges, that's not the same as bribery.  It allows the therapist to modify the terms of the contract over time to have more demands or to shift what are privileges.  We do this with my ds.  

 

Remember, with autism we don't have a lot of motivators.  Your OT isn't trying to go all the way to ABA and like be in the home and find all the dc's motivators and which is the most.  She doesn't want the behavior to be the focus.  So she has picked a motivator she knows will probably work.  But the rules requiring compliance, privileges you lose when you are not compliant, reminders/prompts to help them see the cause/effect of their actions, this is standard stuff.  It's part of what we're doing in our ABA.  It's not where they STARTED, and it might not be where a BCBA would START with your dd when she's diagnosed and they begin.  But right now, many months into ABA, it's terminology my ds understands.

 

Even the things you're doing (alternating breaks and work) are things they do with ABA to get control.  For my ds, physical breaks like that are a motivator.  For some kids it's money or treats or toys or foods.  For my ds, something as simple as a toss game is a motivator!  The ABA team can quantify how much he needs the break, how often, for how long, and mathematically control that, to be really targeted in their efforts.  So IF those breaks are motivating to the op's dc, she could do MORE of them, find out what it takes, then back off.  Like when my ds started, he might do 10 minutes of work and 30 minutes of breaks!  It would look like 3 different things on the list, but nevertheless it was 30 minutes of breaks.  That's what it took to keep him regulated.  And they would chart all that out and follow the math and keep it consistent from session to session.  

 

Anyways, maybe the OT is just bribing.  Maybe she just whipped that candy out.  But I doubt it, not with the way you're saying it.  I'll bet it was very intentional and controlled.  She's in control.  There's a lot of ABA that looks like it's just out of control, but it's because they don't go in and SWOOP and take control all at once.  It would break the dc!  Instead, they watch, they play, they make teeny tiny, measured demands that the dc can comply with, and they gently, slowly increase.  Your OT sounds like she's doing a good job.

[PeterPan]

We have an OT that comes once a week and does exercises with her. We try to do them three times a day and I have noticed the weighted vest helps as well. She will also get silly with the OT and start saying inappropriate things like butt and fart. The OT says it's almost like her adrenaline is so high and it's a fight or flight response and she can't down regulate. I do think she is also doing it when anxious or stressed and wanting to get out of the situations like with math. I will try to stay on top of the OT exercises. She hates the trampoline. She says it hurts her head.

 

 

Is the OT able to get her back on track? If not -- I don't think you will get a solution there. I am not saying it is bad, just many people need additions to OT.

...

It doesn't take anything away from sensory, but it doesn't sound like sensory is providing everything she needs right now. There can just be more components to difficult things like regulation. More support can make thing easier on her and reduce her stress (ideally).

If she's not enjoying the trampoline, don't do the trampoline.  Also, OTs are not all the same.  They get a masters that is sort of a general something, and then they go to workshops and get more training.  So you could find an OT with TONS of training in autism-related issues or an OT with hardly any, but they'd cost the same price and be called the same thing, kwim?  It makes OT a really frustrating field!  Personally, if your OT is really being as vague as what you're saying, I would find a new OT.  At least call around.  I just switched OTs, and our new OT has this real gift for using kinesthetic methods to explain things.  My ds is all about motion, so for him it's FABULOUS.  OTs just vary, and you may need to try a few.

 

As far as what Lecka said, I totally, totally agree.  Once you move up to autism, having the OT blended with ABA is the way to go.  The behaviorist/BCBA will know sensory stuff AND academics AND emotional regulation AND...  And when you get all those ands, they blend together into a cohesive program.  Otherwise you have trampoline here, vest there, and you don't see how it fits together.  So the sooner you get the diagnosis and are able to bring in a behaviorist and get ABA going, the better.  For us, the TEAM approach was LIGHTNING for getting things to begin working.

 

And see here's part of it.  You're learning from scratch.  They (the ABA team) are learning how it looks in your dc and how to explain it to you.  And the OT is trying to help your dc learn how it feels.  When you bring in ABA workers (which we have), then they're applying the concepts in an objective, controlled, precise way.  That allows you to quantify what is working.  It removes some of your parental angst and lets someone come in really objectively.  

 

For me, that helped a LOT to have that outside team come in.  They did the dirty work of finding the mixture that could work, then they could quantify it and communicate it.  Now I can work with him.  They did the dirty work, and now I have the pleasure of working with him.  They got me to places I couldn't get by myself.

 

It's not going to be as simple as put a vest on, bam done.  If it were only ADHD (I know people hate that), maybe.  That's a step the ps uses in their IEPs, sure.  They have a consultative OT option, where the OT will give the teacher advice and toss out a vest or little tricks.  But then there's the *that's not enough because more is going on and we need a cohesive approach* step.  And there are in-between steps like direct OT, sure.  But once they say no we pull him out, we have a program, we write it all down, we know what we're doing and why, and we're really objective about it.  That, for us, was ABA in the home.  

 

This is the book you want for understanding what you're seeing.  It's short and worth the read.  Maybe your library will have it.  It's GOLD.

 

Stop That Seemingly Senseless Behavior!: FBA-based Interventions for People with Autism (Topics in Autism)

Edited October 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

I am pretty turned off by the word bribe, it is just one of those things. I am always going to say reinforcer lol.

 

I think bribe sounds like it is making a child do something you want them to do.

 

A reinforcer sounds like reinforcing a child for something the child did.

 

It is splitting hairs but I am someone who says "I would never bribe my child" even though I would be giving the same tootsie roll if it was appropriate.

 

But I know it is splitting hairs, and I understand other people using it.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

Well we wouldn't say kill, suicide, murder, and death by natural causes were the same, even though they all got to the same place.  I wouldn't interchange those words anywhere.  

 

The precision of the words might be new to you, but the things they communicate matter.

[Mtngrace]

Today I will give an example. I asked my daughter to go get her glasses because she forgot to put them on. She whined and got silly. I ignored her and told her that if she wanted to watch Wild Kratts today she needed to get some things done like this and school work. We did some school this morning and I gave her clear instructions and how long each session would last. We also did some swinging and heavy work before we started. She did better until we got to some math facts and she started whining and getting silly. I ignored it and said I would work with her and we would use some manipulatives. She did better and held it together better. When she was done with school I told her how proud I was that she finished even through some silliness and how she was able to pull herself back and get through it. She got to watch Wild Kratts.

 

I am going to look into ABA therapy if our insurance pays for it. I have to do a lot diy stuff as well. We are getting vision therapy and allergy shots right now so adding another therapy is too much right now. My OT comes to my house and has a lot of experience with spd. I am not going to change OT's right now. I can't handle another appointment to go to. I bought some of the social curriculum and I will start that soon.

[Mtngrace]

Yes she also has anxiety. She gets frustrated very easily as well.

[Lecka]

To me that sounds like a good morning! Like -- I would think that was a morning where things went well and you stayed on track and ended on a good note and she successfully followed through on the Wild Kratts!

[PeterPan]

The ABA people will come to your home.  The ABA people will make everything go better by improving overall compliance.  Honestly, I would wait on VT and get ABA.  I'm a huge VT fan, but it's just NOT as important as compliance and ability to function in the home.  VT is very stressful and requires compliance.  I would just say sorry, gotta wait 6 months.  The world will not end.  

[merry gardens]

Today I will give an example... We did some school this morning and...She did better until we got to some math facts and she started whining and getting silly. I ignored it and said I would work with her and we would use some manipulatives. She did better and held it together better.....

 

Using the manipulatives was a good call when she whined and got silly after you'd said she'd be doing math facts next. Extreme silliness can sometimes indicate you are asking a child to do something she finds difficult. (Think of the "class clown"-- a child with a sense of humor may use it cover-up a learning disability because children usually prefer that others think they are silly or funny rather than struggling with the basics.) Autism or not, math facts can be quite hard for some children. Manipulatives can help to show and teach math facts, making those math facts easier to comprehend.

 

Anyway, that's how I handle silliness in a young child when we're working on school. Silliness serves as a "caution sign" to alert me to the possibility that the child may be struggling with the task and concepts. There may be other causes, but that's the first thing I suspect.

[Guest]

My ADHD kids get silly when they're avoiding or anxious. It's a coping mechanism.

I'm an NT adult and still end up doing this to cope when I'm bored, anxious, or uncomfortable. It's very common! I hope you find some good and practical solutions to help her :)

[MyLittleBears]

I am wondering if you have looked into dietary causes? I have a child who is highly sensitive to food dyes and too much sugar, and needs fats like fish oil omega 3s and calcium magnesium supplements to stay calm.I have another child who had yeast overgrowth from frequent (although 1 time use can do I too ) antibiotic use as an infant. We did Diane Crafts biology of behavior program. It cleared up the overgrowth and it was fairly easy to do. Yeast overgrowth can cause fermention in the gut and can mimic "drunken" type silly behavior. Just something to consider.

[Tiramisu]

We have an OT that comes once a week and does exercises with her. We try to do them three times a day and I have noticed the weighted vest helps as well. She will also get silly with the OT and start saying inappropriate things like butt and fart. The OT says it's almost like her adrenaline is so high and it's a fight or flight response and she can't down regulate. I do think she is also doing it when anxious or stressed and wanting to get out of the situations like with math. I will try to stay on top of the OT exercises. She hates the trampoline. She says it hurts her head.

I'm coming in late to the conversation, but I have a kiddo who sounds very similar, including the butt and fart stuff. She's a bit older now, but at age two she had already learned to make herself burp to get a reaction from people. She would ask adult guest if they pooped.

 

Anyway, the adrenaline comment got my attention. We found out my DD has an abnormally high heat rate, so there is some deregulation of her autonomic nervous system, which could very well be a problem with adrenaline. Her heart rate is high even when she's sleeping so it's independent of her own response to her environment and her emotions. In other words, it's not stress or anxiety causing it. It also means it's a lot harder for her to regulate herself.

 

Things that have clearly helped her regulate herself (thoughts and behavior):

 

1. Interactive metronome

2. A stimulant ADHD medication (given with her cardiologist's okay)

3. An antidepressant (maybe this could have been avoided if we intervened with the above first)

4. Love and acceptance didn't hurt either

 

Things that did not help with regulation:

1. Traditional therapy (but we still go)

 

Things that can make it worse:

1. A load of sugar (could be the yeast theory; she had repeat throats infections as a young child)

2. Possibly allergies (when we strictly limited her diet after allergy testing and gave her allergy meds for a while, she was calmer; but it didn't las forever)

 

I hope these ideas help.

[Mtngrace]

She actually has a low heart rate. My husband does too. Sometimes I think she is sped up acting because of her low heart rate? It's a sensory thing for sure though.