maize Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Wrong, Maize, op said Europeans know it is correct, therefore it is correct and why would you need more proof than that? Europe=science. Ah of course. Silly me. Tradition is powerful stuff. One story that always reminds me of that is from my sister's birth in Austria. It was standard practice there to feed all newborns some type of herbal tea. My mom specifically asked that her baby not be given the tea and was very upset when she learned that the nurses had fed it to her anyway. The Dr. patiently explained that the nurses were sure that any baby who did not get the tea would die. This is a modern, medically advanced country in the mid 90's. We rarely question the things we just know are right. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast_and_Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 Wrong, Maize, op said Europeans know it is correct, therefore it is correct and why would you need more proof than that? Europe=science. Now you are putting your own words into my mouth and, therefore, I rest my case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Wrong, Maize, op said Europeans know it is correct, therefore it is correct and why would you need more proof than that? Europe=science. Circular reasoning at its finest!! It is incorrect to say that no teachers even in the United States teach a particular pencil grip. Perhaps the OP doesn't know how many classrooms there are in the US? OP, believe it or not, even in the US a significant percentage of students use your "approved " grip. Did you think that they perhaps invented it without any modeling? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 At the end of the day, my question isn't about if the standard pencil grip is superior to others. It's about why a large percentage of Americans don't learn / don't use the standard grip that is used in pretty much the rest of the world. You have received your answer: Americans have not bought into the assumption that there is only one correct grip. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast_and_Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 You have received your answer: Americans have not bought into the assumption that there is only one correct grip. OK, thank you, I appreciate your input. That is what I wanted to know: if children in America are actually taught this standard grip, if it is insisted upon and reinforced. It wasn't my intention to start a discussion about what or who is more "superior". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 OK, thank you, I appreciate your input. That is what I wanted to know: if children in America are actually taught this standard grip, if it is insisted upon and reinforced. It wasn't my intention to start a discussion about what or who is more "superior". You started with the assumption that the traditional tripod grip was correct (superior) and that anyone not using that grip was holding their pens incorrectly. That is a presumption that frankly comes across as arrogant and condescending. As far as whether children are taught the standard grip, yes they usually are. It is a good grip and works for most people. My six year old is being taught this grip in school. However, informed teachers and occupational therapists do not insist on or enforce that particular grip if a particular child struggles with it and finds a different grip to work better for them. The keys to a good writing grip are flexibility and support and there is more than one way to achieve that. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast_and_Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 You started with the assumption that the traditional tripod grip was correct (superior) and that anyone not using that grip was holding their pens incorrectly. That is a presumption that frankly comes across as arrogant and condescending. OK then, if you have a problem with the word "correct", you can replace it with "standard". Also, correct doesn't equal superior. I used that word because in my environment non-standard grips are considered incorrect. But some members of the forum already accused me of saying that Europeans are superior to Americans, which is unfair. My question and comments had nothing to do with that and didn't imply it in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirty ethel rackham Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Except, that's actually not what you asked. You asked... "Why do many Americans hold their pens incorrectly?" and "Are American children taught correct hand posture?' The words "correct" and "incorrect" absolutely indicate there's a right (superior) way and a wrong (inferior) way. The word "standard" was never used in your original post. And then, going beyond that, you talked about how those who use the "wrong" (incorrect, other, non standard, inferior) grips are viewed as uneducated and "even uncultured." It was never your QUESTION, in it's general form, that people didn't like. It was the statements about "right ways" and "bad habits" and "illiterate" and about how the "wrong" grip might make someone judge or assume Downs Syndrome that people don't like. The reality is that being concerned about the "right" or "wrong" grip on a writing instrument is considered an ultra minor thing by most PEOPLE (not most Americans, by most PEOPLE, world wide,) and to imply that the type of grip is a reflection on the person, which is exactly what the above statements do, is petty and shallow. "The people who matter don't mind, and the people who mind, don't matter." If someone is genuinely that concerned about how I, as an adult, hold my pencil, they probably aren't worth my time. And with that..... "Ain't Nobody Got Time For That!" I have lessons to plan. I was just coming back to rebut her claims of not wanting to start an argument and of her claims that "Americans are so sensitive to criticism" but you did that for me! Well said. OP, if you were truly interested in the answer to your question, perhaps you should actually read the responses with an open mind, and, perhaps, you should learn not to use pejorative language over and over again, and, maybe, you should figure out who your audience is before jumping in with all sorts of assumptions. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizaG Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 I don't know why you speak of local norms as there is nothing local about this board? That was just my attempt at coming up with a general description for a phenomenon that I'd noticed in many different circumstances. "Group norms" might have been a better phrase. We are challenging the assumption that just because something is standard practice it is necessarily superior. The OP has offered very little in the way of evidence to support their claim that there is a single correct way to hold a writing implement. There seem to be a couple of other things going on as well, though. Some people have said that "there isn't just one correct way," i.e., "according to those who can be considered authorities on this subject (e.g., school systems, OTs), there are several acceptable ways." This makes sense, but it doesn't really answer the OP's question, since we don't know whether most Americans are using these grips, or different ones that are still incorrect by the above standards. Others have said, in various ways, that "there's no such thing as an incorrect grip." This, it seems to me, is more of a philosophical statement, i.e.: "There are no authorities. I'm going to hold my pen however I like, and nobody can tell me I'm wrong." :D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 That was just my attempt at coming up with a general description for a phenomenon that I'd noticed in many different circumstances. "Group norms" might have been a better phrase. There seem to be a couple of other things going on as well, though. Some people have said that "there isn't just one correct way," i.e., "according to those who can be considered authorities on this subject (e.g., school systems, OTs), there are several acceptable ways." This makes sense, but it doesn't really answer the OP's question, since we don't know whether most Americans are using these grips, or different ones that are still incorrect by the above standards. Others have said, in various ways, that "there's no such thing as an incorrect grip." This, it seems to me, is more of a philosophical statement, i.e.: "There are no authorities. I'm going to hold my pen however I like, and nobody can tell me I'm wrong." :D Just like different schools have different standards even on things like whether pencil grip will be emphasized, homeschools can also have varying standards. Some have tried to teach a standard grip and failing that, have decided that it was not important enough to force on a child who was not taking to it readily. Some consulted an OT (an authority) and have decided to allow an alternative or to drop it as a requirement. And some have taught it and had no problem with it. Or just modeled it and had no problem with it. The variations aren't endless, but they are many. The thing about a thread like this is that you are going to get answers that run the gamut because people's experiences and views on this topic run the gamut. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 according to occupational therapists there are a few "correct" ways. And they are only a few- maybe three I think it is, and it is for VERY good reason. Holding it "your own way" will absolutely induce muscle strain, poor penmanship, wrist and arm strain, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Gah! I don't know why I can't stay away from this thread! It's so stupid, and yet I can't look away. It has been an interesting read, no? I'm just catching up now while college boy is on the phone catching up with grandma. The only thing I've seen in this thread that one needs to watch for is someone claimed my Post 4 suggested that all grips are equal... anyone reading that also needs to read my Post 7 that says: That said, there may be "better" ways that don't affect muscles as much or something similar, but no, I will never agree that there is one right way. In the end, hold it however is comfortable for you. to have a better explanation of my view. It's also interesting to think of Americans as conformists. I can't say I've heard that one before from any of my non-native friends or our exchange students. But I just heard the phone hang up, so I'm now going back to listening about various research (mostly brain) going on at college and elsewhere (they hosted a convention there this past week with presenters from around the world). I enjoy this thread, but honestly? Some of the other things I'm learning are just a tad bit more interesting, so... see you another time! It's a huge plus having a youngster who is majoring in Brain & Cognitive Science at a research U. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 It has been an interesting read, no? I'm just catching up now while college boy is on the phone catching up with grandma. The only thing I've seen in this thread that one needs to watch for is someone claimed my Post 4 suggested that all grips are equal... anyone reading that also needs to read my Post 7 that says: That said, there may be "better" ways that don't affect muscles as much or something similar, but no, I will never agree that there is one right way. In the end, hold it however is comfortable for you. to have a better explanation of my view. It's also interesting to think of Americans as conformists. I can't say I've heard that one before from any of my non-native friends or our exchange students. But I just heard the phone hang up, so I'm now going back to listening about various research (mostly brain) going on at college and elsewhere (they hosted a convention there this past week with presenters from around the world). I enjoy this thread, but honestly? Some of the other things I'm learning are just a tad bit more interesting, so... see you another time! It's a huge plus having a youngster who is majoring in Brain & Cognitive Science at a research U. You need to share this interesting stuff you are learning about with us! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 This thread is hysterical. And sad. That someone thinks it's OK to talk about people who don't hold the pencil the same must... I can't even repeat it. Holy Moly, biting my tongue. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast_and_Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 ElizaG and Calming Tea made some good points. Happysmileylady and dirty ethel rackham are overreacting and being more offended by my words than their actual intention was. No need to be a drama queen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8circles Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 - Why do Americans do things wrong? - Well, we don't think there's only one right way to do things. - Oh. I've travelled all over the world and people in Europe say that when they see people do stuff like Americans do stuff, they think they have Downs Syndrome. - ?? What? That's so incredibly ignorant and offensive I can't believe you said that out loud. - I knew it. Americans are so touchy. You can't say anything without them getting offended. 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellydon Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 A nice article by an OT https://theanonymousot.com/2013/03/22/when-to-fix-a-pencil-grasp/ She contends there is not a correct pencil grasp and cites studies that indicate that pencil grasp have no effect on how legible handwriting is for a child. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 You need to share this interesting stuff you are learning about with us! I can share some, but not most as a good part of what we discussed also involved politics - and how brains perceive what is going on, etc. Supposedly many of the presenters at the conference even brought up some remarks alluding to politics (and none of those reflected well on our country). 'Tis the season. The convention was neuroscience, so topics there involved the nuts and bolts of the working of the brain (vs cognitive science that involves perception). A bit of the research involved deep brain stimulation and its effects on subjects as that is an area that is being probed for all sorts of injury recovery (from PTSD, health issues, and more). The most interesting one (to us) involved the amygdala in the brain and rats. Rats were conditioned to head into the middle of an area (open area) for a food pellet without displaying fear. This was learned quite quickly. Then they were introduced to a robot that moved invoking fear in some, but they got over it. All typical, normal stuff. Then the amygdala was either stimulated or given a lesion. When it was stimulated, rats showed absolutely no fear - incredibly brave critters. When it was given a lesion they were fearful no matter what was going on - even nothing. This is all preliminary, of course, and led both them (discussing there) and us (discussing for "fun") to the implications of everything from natural variance with neurotransmitters or similar and how things could potentially be changed in the future, etc. Conference findings weren't all we caught up on though. We also caught up on junior's own research into how kids learn nuances to language, how people can end up doing things they say they never would do (using the Stanford Prison Experiment study), current Theory of Mind application studies and their success with kids on the Autism Spectrum and similar. To cap it all off (when our brains got tired)? We introduced middle son's GF (neuroscience major) to the Beverly Hillbillies. :lol: Deep stuff, but how Creeklanders run their home life. (That was such a well-written fun show, and of course plays on language understandings!) She fits right in, so all is well. I'm sure we'll hear more today. We're science folks and love understanding more of our world. Brain science is fascinating (to us). 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Thanks creekland, brain science is fascinating to me as well. I'm thinking of the fearful rats. And of people with serious anxiety who just feal kind of generally fearful all the time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 ElizaG and Calming Tea made some good points. Happysmileylady and dirty ethel rackham are overreacting and being more offended by my words than their actual intention was. No need to be a drama queen. Yer the pits, new guy Now, I INTEND no offense, so don't over-react, Mmk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Thanks creekland, brain science is fascinating to me as well. I'm thinking of the fearful rats. And of people with serious anxiety who just feal kind of generally fearful all the time. Humans, puppies, kittens, horses, even rats - there is a natural difference in how fearful we all are that seems to come from birth - our genetics. Our instinctive reaction also seems to be set early (flight, fight, or freeze). We (collective - science) tend to think this comes from neurotransmitters we have in some way or another, but there appeared to be no/little difference in the reaction of the rats from either of the experiments (stimulation/lesion) even though there was in the control (robot). (This all presumes I'm relating what I heard correctly, of course.) How it's all related or if it even is will need to be looked at more. Is it applicable for PTSD in the future? Can stimulation be used to help people overcome fear of basic things? Could it be used in wrong applications to get people to do things they said they never would (where the Stanford Prison part came in because we know this happens naturally)? Tons of questions and ponderings. One wonders what options there might be in 20 years or so. With brain science there is still so much to learn. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast_and_Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 - Why do Americans do things wrong? - Well, we don't think there's only one right way to do things. - Oh. I've travelled all over the world and people in Europe say that when they see people do stuff like Americans do stuff, they think they have Downs Syndrome. - ?? What? That's so incredibly ignorant and offensive I can't believe you said that out loud. - I knew it. Americans are so touchy. You can't say anything without them getting offended. Except the conversation didn't go on that way. By the way, when people in that forum were discussing that particular case, it wasn't "the way Americans do it", but just one particular case. It seems that everyone in America does it differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast_and_Curious Posted October 15, 2016 Author Share Posted October 15, 2016 And since this discussion lost any point, I will end it here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 And since this discussion lost any point, I will end it here. Threads often take a life of their own. I think your original questions were answered though. If you're still curious about other culture deals with Americans (& others of course), I took the time this morning to find the "finger licking" thread. It's an interesting read showing different thoughts on the topic. http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/621711-licking-fingers-at-the-dinner-table/ This board is really a good place to see how others choose to live and their thoughts behind their choices. We might all be related to homeschooling or afterschooling in one form or another, but we're also quite diverse and bring so many varied backgrounds along with us. Many of us are willing to share both real situational advice and theoretical musing. We only ask for politeness rather than condemnation. That doesn't always happen. It often doesn't happen. Humans are humans and we naturally want others to agree with us to reaffirm our choices - it shows we're "smart." It can boggle our minds when others disagree, so reasons (with backup) tend to break out and sometimes get fought over. In another thread the same folks fighting can be best friends agreeing with each other. Overall politeness is just what we'd like in our ideal world, and when it doesn't happen, we do often "conform" to point it out. ;) To me, it's worth it to overlook some of the "bad" to keep current on a wider world than my own. I'm actually a retired homeschooler - quit homeschooling in 2012 when my middle son went to college (he's the one back on break now - doing a freebie 5th year program at the University of Rochester studying Western Influences on Global Success in Africa prior to heading to med school next year). But I've built bonds here with online friends I care about - some of whom, like me, are retired from homeschooling - and as I said, I like to keep current on diverse thought. There's so much shared on here that I also really do often learn my "something new each day" from this board. ;) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 15, 2016 Share Posted October 15, 2016 Except the conversation didn't go on that way. By the way, when people in that forum were discussing that particular case, it wasn't "the way Americans do it", but just one particular case. It seems that everyone in America does it differently. Only they don't. You really need to learn how to read studies and make conclusions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest2 Posted October 22, 2016 Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) I pay attention to the way people hold writing utensils,but that is because it used to be my job:). I am not sure how it contrasts with other countries, but American kids tend to be taught to write before age of 8. It is a bit too early and kids need to use other muscles in the hand to stabilize. Sometimes, children don't have the shoulder stability or are not sitting in a correct height desk to function appropriately. They compensate and get it done, but it results in a wide variety of grips and techniques. Perhaps America has more of a melting pot background with a larger variety of heights, and muscle tone in her children? Perhaps fine motor skills are used in more toys (leggo thumb is an example). I don't know. Is this conversation really about pencil grips? Because it seems like it may not be. Edit. Should have read the last page before responding. It had gone way beyond handrips at that point. Edited October 22, 2016 by Silver Brook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 I'm not sure why this topic has to come down to "only one way" and "anything anyone cooses is equal". I think that as far as what I have seen in schools, the reason for allowing all kinds of grips is not that the teachers have a clear idea of a range of options that are good and useful. It's because they spend almost no time on handwriting and have larger classes than is really ideal. A lot of the kids I see in the school system are using grips that are not "just as good" they don't write well because they smudge the writing or have tense muscles or contorted hands that will be sore later. Their writing is poor for similar reasons - not because the method is an only one way issue, but because they get little practice or useful help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Drexler Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 OK, thank you, I appreciate your input. That is what I wanted to know: if children in America are actually taught this standard grip, if it is insisted upon and reinforced. It wasn't my intention to start a discussion about what or who is more "superior". Hi, You ask an honest question. As best I've been able to put the scene together, from my own experience with calligraphy and being a Civil War reenactor who is learning Spencerian script and writes with an 1850s replica pen that I dip into an ink bottle, here it is. For many years in America, penmanship was taught with great care and attention. There are books from the 19C and 20C that demonstrate the correct and incorrect way to hold a pencil/pen. In the 1800s, the Spencerian method was practiced, which is somewhat specific to a nib pen dipped in ink. Any pen used for this method should be very lightweight, as that was the way pens were then, and the style and method fit the instrument. It's difficult for me to write proper Spencerian with a heavy pen. Spencerian was replaced in the 1900s with the Palmer method, which was simpler and quicker to write than Spencerian. Each of these methods emphasized posture as well as penmanship, teaching the act of writing as something one does with his whole body. There was certainly a correct way to sit when writing, with feet flat, holding one's shoulders and arms a certain way, the paper a certain way, and most importantly, the holding the pen correctly. Educators even looked at writing as a method of instilling discipline and virtue. Somewhere in the 1950s in America, educators began paring down the penmanship instruction, no longer teaching posture (feet flat, shoulders square to the page, page slanted at certain angle, etc) that should accompany proper hand form (e.g., "Hold the pen like this...", "Form your letters thus", "No, that's not right; here, do it again," etc.). By the 1970s, most schools had switched to teaching manuscript rather than cursive first, and additionally ceasing to emphasize the correct and preferred way one should hold a pen. Children began writing with very little guidance and were allowed to hold their pencils as they wished. In my personal experience, since about the 1980s, there has been little to no instruction in standard or proper pencil grip, and little emphasis in penmanship. Sadly, there are some children in their teens who can't even read, let alone write in cursive. Today, very few people under age 50 have been taught the correct way to write (beginning with posture), and many more hardly even know there ever existed a correct way, or best practice, for writing. There have been enough studies demonstrating the benefits of cursive first that many schools are returning to that practice. My experience, however, is that although teachers are expected to teach penmanship, very few of them realize all that's involved. Penmanship is not simply forming your letters, it involves posture and form that extends from the bottoms of the feet to the tips of the fingers. I hope this helps. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 All those things are very useful and, of course, we should also pursue computer literacy and use all the advantages of modern technology. Still, it would be a mistake to let the humanity forget how to write by hand only because we are technologically developed enough to rarely need it. Also, replacing every human factor with a machine seems so cold and impersonal. Of course using this reasoning indicates that we should all know how to make clay tablets and chisel stone too. Because it would have been a shame to let these practices die when paper became available... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted November 8, 2016 Share Posted November 8, 2016 I'm in Aus and we were taught the tripod grip. My handwriting teacher in grade two was my worst enemy and I eventually confirmed to her required tripod grip. I ended up with writers cramp in exams and stuff and have messy handwriting. I now read that my original hand grip is considered OK by occupational therapists. So I'm choosing not to make a massive deal over it with my kids. Oddly the only people I've heard criticise someone's pencil grip here were those who I'd probably consider a little less educated, lower iq. May be its just a coincidence I don't know? Separately I think correct process sometimes reflects the tools of the time. We've moved from a quill and ink style to a ball point pen style and obviously that has an impact. Correct grip and formation is more important when you are trying not to smudge wet ink and writing in cursive is harder with a ball point pen. Nowadays I think we have such a variety of writing instruments available that correct grip is less critical. Similarly we learnt strict rules about typing position which are less relevant now with the diverse range and style of keyboards. I suspect now we should be focussing on the most effective way to hold and use a smart phone if we want to avoid future hand pain issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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