Martial arts people, is this commonly done?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

The martial arts studio DD attends is kind of a hybrid, MMA-style chain location. I didn't know anything about martial arts when we started there--DD just wanted to take karate, and there was a good Groupon deal--so I don't know if we'd choose it again, but the instructors are really great and the atmosphere is very positive, so I'm dealing with the things that annoy me. But some things really make me wonder.

 

Today I'm wondering about this: Do most martial arts studios/dojos incorporate a star (or extra deeds) system along with the belt system? While she's advancing through the belts, DD is also supposed to be completing certain challenges (good report card, reading books, etc.) to achieve a rainbow of stars in order to attain her black belt. You can't get your black belt unless you've also completed this range of star challenges and have the stars on your uniform. Is that kind of thing common in martial arts?

 

Thanks!

Edited October 1, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[Arctic Bunny]

Never heard of that, but I'm certainly no expert!

[itsheresomewhere]

I have never heard of that but I am not an expert in this area.

Edited October 1, 2016 by itsheresomewhere

[Lady Florida.]

Ds had been to 3 different studios. The first time we switched because we weren't satisfied, the second time because the studio closed down. He did Soo Bahk Do, then MMA, and he spent a total of 7 years in martial arts. We didn't come across that.

[kiana]

I've never heard of such a thing but I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea. It fits with the learning self-discipline theme. 

[rjand6more]

Yes.  Our TKD studio did use this system.

[luuknam]

No stars, but the little kids (under about 6-7yo) would bring in 'victories' whenever to show at the beginning (or end) of class, which could be a good score on a spelling test, or a pretty drawing they made, or w/e, and get a little red tape on their belt for it, but it's completely optional (the last 3 months I completely forgot about it for my youngest). The bigger kids could sometimes show something off, but it'd have to be a major accomplishment. To test, any age kids need a form signed by their parent saying the kid has good behavior at home, and by the teacher, saying the kid has good behavior at school.

[8circles]

Not that was tied to earning your black belt.  But there is a character component to the classes with optional worksheets & a word of the month.  But like I said, nothing that was tied to earning your black belt.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Stars, no.  But if there were reports of fighting, disrespect etc. even for things done out of the dojo, you could get a talking to and if it were really bad, could lose a belt.  Not that I've ever seen it happen.  But the belts - esp. a black belt - stand for good character as well as physical skill.  At my son's black belt ceremony (as well as all the others I've attended) the Master spent time talking about good grades, respect for authority etc. 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I've never heard of such a thing but I don't necessarily think it's a bad idea. It fits with the learning self-discipline theme. 

 

This is kind of why I'm struggling with it. On the one hand, I think it's great that their aim is building self-discipline, which is one of their focuses, and I like that. But on the other, it's like it's just one more thing for the parents to keep track of and manage, along with the myriad events and parades and fundraisers and Facebook check-in challenges and drives and beach cleanups and and and! I find it very overwhelming, and I'm considering switching her to a privately owned place somewhere, but we do like the teachers here a LOT, and I'd hate to give that up. 

 

Thanks. 

[happypamama]

Our instructor does talk with the students about character traits, and he absolutely discusses obedience, self discipline, respect, etc. at home and school. I've heard him tell the kids things like chores and school come first, and he'd be displeased to hear that a student was great in his class but disrespectful or uncooperative to parents and teachers. I think that's typical, and I very much appreciate the "whole picture" approach.

 

That being said, our school gives stars for good grades, which I think is a nice way for the kids to take pride in and show that they are well rounded and succeeding in and out of the dojang. But they are completely optional. Not at all required, and definitely not required for black belt achievement. Not all of the kids even have them by a long shot. It seems a little strange to me to have things like grades and books be part of the black belt requirement, but maybe they're just trying to instill the concepts of self discipline and ongoing education in all areas of life. I have heard that some places require an essay for black belt, but I do not believe ours does.

 

And ugh, FB check ins and fundraisers and such would bug me. Our place offers occasional special events like games night that act as parents' nights out, but those are totally optional. Nothing is required except that you come to class, complete the skills, and pay your tuition.

Edited October 1, 2016 by happypamama

[luuknam]

I have heard that some places require an essay for black belt, but I do not believe ours does.

 

I forgot about that (we're not at black belt yet). I'm not sure if our place still requires an essay, but they used to - I know, because they had a folder lying around with black belt essays some of the students had written, and recommendation letters from at least 1 (2?) non-parents (usually high school teachers). To be clear, I think they could choose whether they wanted their essays/recommendation letters included in the folder. I haven't seen the folder in a while, but maybe I've just been blind to it.

[Sarah CB]

We used to have to do other things in order to test for any belt - I had to write a note saying they'd had a great report card, or been extremely helpful at home or volunteered somewhere. They also had to take part in either a tournament or a training seminar sometime during each belt in order to progress to the next. I thought it was good - an extra layer of accountability and responsibility. An emphasis that getting your belt wasn't just about training - it was about doing your best in everything. I don't think I would have liked it if it meant a bunch of extra tracking - ours was pretty easy to deal with. The place we're at now doesn't require that.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

And ugh, FB check ins and fundraisers and such would bug me. Our place offers occasional special events like games night that act as parents' nights out, but those are totally optional. Nothing is required except that you come to class, complete the skills, and pay your tuition.

 

Oh, they are optional, but it feels like a constant stream of "should-do's" coming at me daily. And most of these kids are in public school, so I can only imagine the steady stream of "should-do's" coming at them from that direction as well! I probably just need to be better at tuning it out, but I'm really not *sigh*

Edited October 1, 2016 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[JFSinIL]

My dd's dojo had something like this as part of the training.  Once a month one lesson was on a specific character trait, and participation (speaking up and giving examples etc.) was encouraged.  It wasn't mandatory to get a belt, but participation was encouraged since the aim was to improve the whole person, not just learn the physical moves.

[Paige]

We've never seen this, but there's no way any of our schools would let someone test for black belt if there were problems with grades or respect to parents or others outside of class. I wouldn't be upset. Could you make it your DDs responsibility to keep track, or do they require you to sign off? 

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

We've never seen this, but there's no way any of our schools would let someone test for black belt if there were problems with grades or respect to parents or others outside of class. I wouldn't be upset. Could you make it your DDs responsibility to keep track, or do they require you to sign off? 

 

Some things are easy for DD to keep track of, like a reading log. Others, like the multi-week healthy eating challenge (for a single star), require more parent involvement  :glare: Plus, there are never enough forms, so if your kid forgot to grab one, you're the one who has to track down the printable and make sure you get it printed, etc.

 

I don't know. I guess the idea is that you could possibly defer almost all of it to your kid and wash your hands of it, but what parent really does that? These kids are 6-12 years old. Do parents really put this kind of thing entirely in their young kids' hands? And how many kids would really complete everything they need to do if left to do it entirely on their own? 

[Paige]

These kids are 6-12 years old. Do parents really put this kind of thing entirely in their young kids' hands? And how many kids would really complete everything they need to do if left to do it entirely on their own? 

 

That's kind of the point, though, right? It's supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be unusual for a 6-12yr old to have what it takes to earn a black belt. It's not supposed to be something where you just put in your time in class and then they owe it to you.

 

If she just started taking classes, I wouldn't worry about it. Let her go for a few years and when she's a higher belt and getting closer to black belt she can decide if she wants to do everything. You should be several years away from having to worry about it. If they suggest that she can get to black belt more quickly, it's probably not a great school.

[happypamama]

At 6, I would expect to manage a lot of it. By 8-12, depending on the kid, and depending on how long the kid has been at the school, the kid could be expected to manage it. There's some positive peer pressure that goes on in the school, so that even the little kids learn personal responsibility quickly. (My kids do a homeschool class, which is mixed age, so that might, admittedly, help.). But after my kids' very first class, when they were 12, 9, and 5, the instructor sat them down and explained that the uniforms and belts and books and practicing and all were *their* responsibilities, and he specifically added that they were not Mom's responsibilities. I remind my 7yo to find his uniform the night before class, but not always, and I rarely remind the older two. MA seems to encourage a high level of personal responsibility, so yeah, the kids really might be expected to handle things on their own.

 

Optional but pushed or highly recommended would bother me.

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

That's kind of the point, though, right? It's supposed to be hard. It's supposed to be unusual for a 6-12yr old to have what it takes to earn a black belt. It's not supposed to be something where you just put in your time in class and then they owe it to you.

 

If she just started taking classes, I wouldn't worry about it. Let her go for a few years and when she's a higher belt and getting closer to black belt she can decide if she wants to do everything. You should be several years away from having to worry about it. If they suggest that she can get to black belt more quickly, it's probably not a great school.

 

I think I would have that attitude for a teen or adult trying to attain their black belt. For kids? I don't know if I agree. I'm sure the school would prefer to relax their requirements rather than lose half their students because they get no parental support in working toward their goals! So if the assumption is that parental help is a given, then that means they know they're making extra work for parents and they're OK with it. I sort of feel like that goes hand in hand with schools giving kids work to do that they'll never manage to do on their own, so it makes extra work for the parents, but the schools are OK with that because it takes the pressure off of them.

 

I don't know. I'm conflicted about it. Based on the response here, it seems like most MA schools don't have systems like this, so that means most MA schools assume the responsibility IN CLASS for teaching kids these extra components. Somehow they manage to do it in ways that don't involve lots of extra work/responsibility outside of the actual MA training. It's bugging me that this particular school wants so much outside-of-training involvement. 

[bensonduck]

Our studio has a tape system. To test for the next belt, the student needs to earn 3 black tapes (indicating mastery of one of the 3 major skills required to pass the belt test). The student also needs to earn a red tape (good character at the studio), blue tape (note from home describing good character at home) and a white tape (report card or test showing good grades/academic achievement). We have an interim belt system so the 6 tapes need to be earned twice per color actually, one on the first belt and then again on the high belt.

 

To test, the student needs to submit a binder which includes, among a lot of other paperwork, studio rules, belt requirements, etc: signed forms by parents and teacher indicating good character, copies of report cards, documentation of community service, and essays. Each belt level has a different essay assignment. For example, the gold belt essay topic is on the importance of honesty.

 

It is a ton of work for the kids. But the kids are very close and the studio is a motivating, friendly place. We spend hours there each week and it is where my kids have found some of their closest friends.

[Janeway]

The martial arts studio DD attends is kind of a hybrid, MMA-style chain location. I didn't know anything about martial arts when we started there--DD just wanted to take karate, and there was a good Groupon deal--so I don't know if we'd choose it again, but the instructors are really great and the atmosphere is very positive, so I'm dealing with the things that annoy me. But some things really make me wonder.

 

Today I'm wondering about this: Do most martial arts studios/dojos incorporate a star (or extra deeds) system along with the belt system? While she's advancing through the belts, DD is also supposed to be completing certain challenges (good report card, reading books, etc.) to achieve a rainbow of stars in order to attain her black belt. You can't get your black belt unless you've also completed this range of star challenges and have the stars on your uniform. Is that kind of thing common in martial arts?

 

Thanks!

ours does.

[luuknam]

Some things are easy for DD to keep track of, like a reading log. Others, like the multi-week healthy eating challenge (for a single star), require more parent involvement  :glare: Plus, there are never enough forms, so if your kid forgot to grab one, you're the one who has to track down the printable and make sure you get it printed, etc.

 

I don't know. I guess the idea is that you could possibly defer almost all of it to your kid and wash your hands of it, but what parent really does that? These kids are 6-12 years old. Do parents really put this kind of thing entirely in their young kids' hands? And how many kids would really complete everything they need to do if left to do it entirely on their own? 

 

If the kid forgot to grab a form, they'd just have to wait until the next time we're there, imo. I *might* be a bit more lenient for an ADHD etc 6-7yo and print it out if necessary, but I would try very hard to have the responsibility lie with the kid whenever possible. It's not the end of the world if they don't get to do a belt test once because they failed to meet the requirements by forgetting to do assignments etc. They'd be more likely to remember next time. If they didn't grab a form because there weren't enough forms, I'd tell them to march over to the front desk and ask for a form.

 

I think public school parents are maybe better at tuning out fundraisers because they're public school parents. More practice at tuning stuff like that out.

[mathnerd]

Our old studio was a MMA/martial arts hybrid chain studio - it fits the exact description that you gave - DS had to take his report card and a letter from teacher/parent for every belt test - the letter had to say how his behavior was, his attitude to school work and his attendance at school etc. Also, when he got excellent report cards, he could get an "academic achiever" patch for his uniform. We quit that studio as we felt that they were not teaching a pure form of martial arts and were not rigorous. But, though the academic achievement requirement is not a bad thing, I believe that for my child, it was unnecessary as he is a good student and well behaved. I think that this system is very common in a "chain" school. (forgot to add - he had to keep an eating log, a log of his emotional state, his achievement of the day, his struggle of the day etc for 6 months leading up to the black belt testing).

 

Right now, he goes to a MA studio run by a grand master who asks that they write an essay about their journey to the black belt for the black belt test. There are no patches for academics and outside behavior. Though, they will work with kids who have behavior problems (getting into fights etc) if the issue is brought up to them.

Edited October 1, 2016 by mathnerd

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Our old studio was a MMA/martial arts hybrid chain studio - it fits the exact description that you gave - DS had to take his report card and a letter from teacher/parent for every belt test - the letter had to say how his behavior was, his attitude to school work and his attendance at school etc. Also, when he got excellent report cards, he could get an "academic achiever" patch for his uniform. We quit that studio as we felt that they were not teaching a pure form of martial arts and were not rigorous. But, though the academic achievement requirement is not a bad thing, I believe that for my child, it was unnecessary as he is a good student and well behaved. I think that this system is very common in a "chain" school. (forgot to add - he had to keep an eating log, a log of his emotional state, his achievement of the day, his struggle of the day etc for 6 months leading up to the black belt testing).

 

Right now, he goes to a MA studio run by a grand master who asks that they write an essay about their journey to the black belt for the black belt test. There are no patches for academics and outside behavior. Though, they will work with kids who have behavior problems (getting into fights etc) if the issue is brought up to them.

 

I feel exactly the same way! Maybe that's part of what's bugging me? This whole thing feels like...I don't know. I can't describe it. It feels false, almost? I feel like, just teach my kid karate already! We're not here for reading lessons or health classes or to be part of a global community. We have that covered elsewhere. Train my kid in martial arts. And yet, we like the people there so much, and the overall attitude toward training and self-defense. I wish we could separate the two. 

 

Hmmm, that's something to think about. We're paid up until the end of the year. Maybe I'll talk to DD about making a change then.

[luuknam]

I feel exactly the same way! Maybe that's part of what's bugging me? This whole thing feels like...I don't know. I can't describe it. It feels false, almost? I feel like, just teach my kid karate already! We're not here for reading lessons or health classes or to be part of a global community. We have that covered elsewhere. Train my kid in martial arts. And yet, we like the people there so much, and the overall attitude toward training and self-defense. I wish we could separate the two. 

 

Hmmm, that's something to think about. We're paid up until the end of the year. Maybe I'll talk to DD about making a change then.

 

It wouldn't hurt to spend the next few months taking a trial class here and there.

[Wheres Toto]

This is kind of why I'm struggling with it. On the one hand, I think it's great that their aim is building self-discipline, which is one of their focuses, and I like that. But on the other, it's like it's just one more thing for the parents to keep track of and manage, along with the myriad events and parades and fundraisers and Facebook check-in challenges and drives and beach cleanups and and and! I find it very overwhelming, and I'm considering switching her to a privately owned place somewhere, but we do like the teachers here a LOT, and I'd hate to give that up. 

 

Thanks. 

 

That sounds like a lot of work outside of class.   My kids take TKD at a studio that does a variety of martial arts.  They are talked to about respect, health, behavior, etc. but there's no formal aspect to bring in.   At least not yet, maybe they do for black belts (I know black belts are expected to help a certain number of hours with younger classes).  My kids just received their green belts.

 

Our dojo does give out "star cards" to kids that did particularly well in class, were able to answer certain questions.  They aren't required for anything though, just recognition.

[mathnerd]

I feel like, just teach my kid karate already! We're not here for reading lessons or health classes or to be part of a global community. We have that covered elsewhere. Train my kid in martial arts. 

 

What changed my mind was seeing that though my son was an advanced student, attended classes 4 times a week, his skills and techniques were not as sharp as I would have liked (I am a layperson with no previous MA knowledge and I had greater expectations than our school). I had done no prior research and had plonked down my $$ based on referral from friends. I later found out that the chain school taught their proprietary mix of several martial arts (not the pure original form) and hence they were not affiliated to any martial arts organizations and that the black belt certificate from them was not transferable to other schools. My son wants to pursue MA as a lifelong activity and I felt that getting his black belts from schools accredited to national martial arts organizations would help him pursue his passions in the long term. We were not looking for help with listening skills, playing games, help with public speaking, character education etc from the MA school. What we wanted were clean techniques, rigorous work outs to improve stamina, training in sparring and competition training. Personally, I am not interested in training my son for competitions - but, I was advised by a martial artist recently that any DoJo which fields competitive teams will also have the ability to teach standard techniques at a very high level. I used this as a way to find our next school - I followed our state level MA tournament results to see which school had the most gold medal winners in the Forms category. I ended up with a good school and a dedicated Grand Master.

 

I had a hard time convincing my son to switch because he had been with the old school since he was 4 years old and they treated him very well and he could not imagine a life in MA away from them. He refused to get out of the car for the trial lesson and was in tears that I would do such a thing to him. But, after spending 10 minutes with the new Grand Master who was not only an expert at what he did, but was also kind and encouraging to him, he was convinced that the move was a right decision. 

 

So, I think that if your daughter is spending a lot of time on martial arts and if she has a great interest in it, it is a good idea to do some research and see if a change would help her. Good luck.

Edited October 2, 2016 by mathnerd

[frogger]

We don't have a fancy star chart but at each belt testing they have a home and school report. It is a form that includes things like responsibility, respect, health, etc. They can't test unless these forms come back in with reasonable answers. I don't know what they would consider the lower limit but it doesn't seem burdensome to me. The essays for each belt testing do seem burdensome for a son that struggles with communication especially since they are on very subjective and abstract things like community, perseverance, etc.

[Corraleno]

When my kids did TKD, every belt test required a form signed by the parent saying they had been kind, helpful, respectful, had done their chores, etc., and another form signed by the teacher (which was also me) saying they had worked hard on their school work, been kind, helpful, respectful, etc. They also had to write a little essay on an assigned word (like honor or integrity or respect) and present it (from memory) at the belt test. We were there for maybe a year and a half, and in the last few months they started adding the stars for the uniform and colored tape on the belts to show that certain requirements had been meet. When you had all the tapes, you could test for the next belt.

[Lady Florida.]

 I have heard that some places require an essay for black belt, but I do not believe ours does.

 

 

 

Ds' studio required an essay on What a Black Belt Means to Me.

 

And thinking a bit more about it, his Soo Bakh Do studio had weekly character sheets for the younger kids, which were basically just behavior reports. They weren't tied to belts though. If the report wasn't good, they got talked to by the master.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Lady Florida.

[Wheres Toto]

When my kids did TKD, every belt test required a form signed by the parent saying they had been kind, helpful, respectful, had done their chores, etc., and another form signed by the teacher (which was also me) saying they had worked hard on their school work, been kind, helpful, respectful, etc. They also had to write a little essay on an assigned word (like honor or integrity or respect) and present it (from memory) at the belt test. We were there for maybe a year and a half, and in the last few months they started adding the stars for the uniform and colored tape on the belts to show that certain requirements had been meet. When you had all the tapes, you could test for the next belt.

 

This would be very very hard for my daughter.  She has anxiety and stutters so speaking in public is a nightmare for her.  Especially if she doesn't know everyone in the room.  Reciting an essay in front of kids she doesn't know AND their parents and siblings?  Never going to happen.  

 

Yet, she's the stronger of my kids physically.  She's more coordinated, stronger, more controlled than her brother, so can move faster in many physical things.  He would have no problem speaking in front of a large group.

[ashfern]

Ours has the stars as bonus not required for black belt. I think it's a way to keep some kids engaged. Mine have earned stars & patches over the years and I have never even put them on the uniform.