Friday randomness: Severus Snape Poll

[poppy]

I read the Harry Potter books as an adult, and enjoyed then.  I think I started when book 3 had just come out.
First time through, at no point, ever, was a "fooled" by Harry's impression of Snape. He was clearly a capital-G good guy through and through.

 

I'm not someone who ever guesses the ending or figures out the mystery in advance.  EVER. 

So I figured most readers were like me.......... knew Harry had it wrong from the get-go.  Or at least, saw that Snape as quietly heroic, even as he kept the kid at arms length and put EVERYONE off -  deliberately.

But I could be wrong.

What did you think?

 

 

[Lady Florida.]

You need  

 

He's nasty in spite of the twist at the end. 

 

That would be my vote. I don't get the Snape love.

[Slache]

Well I didn't know and now I feel dumb. I hope you're happy.

 

:P

[alisoncooks]

I can't remember how I felt during the first few books. By Book 5, I trusted Dumbledore. If he trusted Snape, I trusted Snape.

 

It's so funny to see my kids new impressions. The other day, my youngest said something along the lines of, "Snape is so evil, isn't he?!" I just smiled... (They've only heard through book 3 -- and Snape certainly seems evil then.)

[FaithManor]

I loved Snape! His expressions!

 

I totally related to him in the 4th movie when he got sick of the chatter in class, rolled up his sleeve with his classic Snape is Exasperated look, and shoved Ron and Harry's heads into their books.

[athomeontheprairie]

You need

 

He's nasty in spite of the twist at the end.

 

That would be my vote. I don't get the Snape love.

This. Even as a good guy who was a hero I don't think this was ever obvious. Rather I thought there was more to his story than what Harry was privy to. like another, I trusted Dumbledore, and Dumbledore trusted him.

 

I do love Snape though. He's possibly my all time favorite literary character. Part of that though come from not knowing him until the end. People can hide so so much, and even when we see them every day we can never truly know them.

 

In part, that's why I love him. Because really, he was horrible despite the twist

[Tiberia]

I thought Snape was probably good until he vowed to kill Dumbledore in case Malfoy couldn't do the job. After that, I thought he was bad and that I had been wrong about him. Then, when all the truth came out, I was relieved that he was good. I love Alan Rickman's portrayal of Snape. Perfect. He's one of my favorite characters in the series, and he's the only bright spot about being sorted into Slytherin at Pottermore. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by Tiberia

[Farrar]

I didn't see it until maybe the fifth book, at which point I became convinced he was going to be the hero. In the leadup to the final book, I was super convinced.

 

He's a complex figure - he's still a jerk much of the time, but you get to see why and feel sympathy for him at the end. And I think there's something wonderful about this guy who isn't filled with do the right thing mentality still being compelled to give his life for the cause.

[poppy]

Oh flawed for sure. He genuinely dislikes kids, for one thing. And he was responsible for telling V to kill Harry's parents. But he is also brave and clever and selfless despite a really wretched life .

 

I'm not a huge fan, but as a character he makes sense and is fairly tragic.

 

 

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[Joyofsixreboot]

While I figured him for a good guy I kind of wanted to shake him. He seemed to be one of those romantically clueless guys who give some girl who doesn't give a fig about him their undying devotion. Snap out of it! Life sucks, move on! I will admit that I loved Alan Rickman so possibly I have jumbled my literary and cinematic impressions.

Edited October 1, 2016 by joyofsix

[Seasider]

By the end of the books, Snape is acceptable. Redeemed. Tolerable.

 

Alan Rickman was a gem, and gave Snape more personality than I could have imagined just reading. I think there was a chance to see a slice of integrity in him at the end of the first book when we learn he was actually counteracting Quirrel's spells during the quidditch match. But then in the third book when he bursts onto the scene and Peter Pettigrew eventually escapes... well I just can't stand him for that.

 

I think I came to *understand* Snape, but not to love him.

[SproutMamaK]

I'm with those who don't see Snape as a hero even now. I see a troubled man, desperate to assuage his guilt in the only ways left available to him. He did the right thing (well, in the grand scheme of things; he did plenty of the wrong things as well), but not BECAUSE it was the right thing; he did the right thing only because it made him feel a little bit better about what he'd done.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I so identified with Harry as a young boy (being bullied, middle child sort of forgotten at home) that I hated Snape when I read the first few books.  As the books went on, my impressions of him were sort of muddled.  I later saw him as an incredibly brave, but troubled man.  He was heroic to me.  I got the impression from the books, but Alan Rickman's portrayal really cemented it for me. 

[Jenny in Florida]

I thought it was pretty clear from early on that there was more to him than your basic bitter bad guy. However, I can't say I knew he was a hero; in fact, I'm not sure that I think he's a hero even after knowing the whole story. To me, he's a richly drawn, multifaceted, deeply flawed character with a tragic back-story who does the best he can in a heartbreaking situation.

[Ellie]

I'm just finishing up The Deathly Hallows (the last book, for folks who aren't familiar), where Harry is viewing Snape's thoughts in the Pensieve. This will be the umpteenth time I've read the series. It is always a surprise to read this chapter; Snape is a hero, but I think he relishes the part of bad guy way too much.

[Lady Florida.]

Though I still didn't like Snape after finding out what he did, I did think there was more to him than Harry thought. After the first two books I realized that as soon as Harry suspects Snape of something it means Snape didn't do it. As for the twist, I found out before I read it. I'm not worried about spoilers so I read some things online and though I didn't know all the details I had a general idea of what was coming.

 

I don't think he was a hero. He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. He did it for selfish reasons. Yes, what he did was difficult and brave, but not heroic or altruistic. He did it because he was punishing himself. He would have been happy to let V have Harry and James. He didn't love Lily, he was creepily obsessed with her. 

[kewb]

Snape is a complicated fellow. He is dark and twisty and full of unrequited love. The good he does is tied to his love for Lilly and not for Harry or for good over evil. Without the love for Lilly he would be pure bad guy.

Edited October 1, 2016 by kewb

[luuknam]

You're missing an option for "What's Harry Potter?". Okay, I know who it is, but I haven't read the books (yet - planning on reading them at the same time as my oldest, who doesn't want to read them yet (I asked a couple of months ago)), and haven't watched the movies either.

[MistyMountain]

I do not know that he was a hear or evil. He was complicated. He did end up protecting Harry but I do not know that he did it for Harry. His love for his mom was obsessive. He needed to move on once she married someone else and had a baby. He did not have to be as mean as he was to Harry and some of the other kids even if it some of it was for show.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I read the books as an adult and am ashamed to say... I swallowed the Snape-is-a-baddie hook, line, and sinker.  I was furious with him at the end of book 6!  LOL  

 

I've since become a big fan, obviously...

 

I recently saw a youtube video recently, where they go through Snape's scenes chronologically.  It's very moving.  I'll see if I can link it...here it is...

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RhOQ4VW6xV8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Edited October 1, 2016 by Monica_in_Switzerland

[LucyStoner]

It did seem to me that if he was fully remorseful he would have treated Harry better, or at least neutrally, for Lily's sake. The child he was mistreating was the son of the woman he said he loved. Then perhaps, his unkindness to Harry was part of his cover with his fellow former Death Eaters.

 

Dumbledore prevailed upon Snape to join him in protecting Harry. It's not clear that Snape he would have vowed to do that on his own.

 

He's neither all evil or all good. He's human, disposed to follow others (first Lucius, then Voldemort, then Dumbledore) and sad. He was abused and lonely as a child, like Harry was, but they both reacted in very different ways.

 

It was clear to me from the end of the first book that he was more complicated than just a generic bad guy. By the end of book 4, I knew he was unshakably loyal to Dumbledore. When Dumbledore was killed, I told my husband that the only way that would have come to pass was if it was by Dumbledore's design.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ok, I have no idea how to embed the video apparently.  Here is the link, I can manage that, at least!

 

Snape's Scenes in Chronological Order

[poppy]

When I say he is a Good Guy, I mean in the sense that there is a war, and he actively fights evil every book.  Not many other adults in the series can say that.... Dumbledore can, but obviously he faced fewer risks than Snape (if only because he was the only wizard alive more powerful than Mr. V).  McGonnagill.  Hagrid fought the good fight whenever it came to his doorstep, and members of the Order after book 5.  But in terms of risk, in terms of making a difference, Snape certainly rises above many more likable adults.

[Lizzie in Ma]

What he did may have all been for the love of Lily, but he was still pretty horrible to Harry.  That never changed.

So while I absolutely adore the late Alan Rickman, Severus Snape was never a likeable character for me in any way.

[tm919]

I think I always knew he was a hero. I actually liked Dumbledore a lot less after the Snape flashback chapter.

 

I did however believe until the very end that it was going to be Neville, not  Harry.... ultimate red herring.

Edited October 3, 2016 by tm919

[Mimm]

Very flawed but then, so is James Potter. No mater what excuses Lupin and Sirius made for James, the way he bullied Snape was awful. Perhaps the only reason James didn't turn out worse is he had loving parents, and the world cut him more slack because he was good looking and charming and good at quiddich.

 

I love Snape. He's a very complicated character. http://i.imgur.com/V7d8hAZ.jpg

 

ETA: I should point out that I'm not trying to be hard on James in particular. I'm sure he was generally a nice guy. But that's the thing right? Even the nice guys have flaws, even the jerks are capable of love, bravery, loyalty, sacrifice. :)

Edited October 3, 2016 by Mimm

[Lady Florida.]

Very flawed but then, so is James Potter. No mater what excuses Lupin and Sirius made for James, the way he bullied Snape was awful. Perhaps the only reason James didn't turn out worse is he had loving parents, and the world cut him more slack because he was good looking and charming and good at quiddich.

 

 

 

He was also rich. Even Harry noticed that his father was a bully. I think it was in Book 5 when people tried to brush it off as him being young. Harry replies (was it to Hermoine?) that they're the same age as his father, Lupin, and Sirius were. It was hard for Harry, who hero-worshipped his father, to see him as flawed and human. 

[foxbridgeacademy]

He was a miserable, sad, angry guy, of course he was going to be redeemed at the end.  I remember talking to a couple friends just before #4 came out (we were reading them together) And one of the friends thought I was crazy when I suggested that Snape was going to be on Harry's side, but that's what they always do in movies/books.  Take a character with lots of faults who can, through sacrifice, be redeemed. What I didn't see coming was Sirrius dying.... I was just sure that he'd find a way to survive.  I almost stopped reading the series after that.

[bettyandbob]

In the end I don't think he was evil. He was mean to Harry. Perhaps he disliked Harry because of James perhaps he overcompensated in his double agent role. For a while I was fooled and thought Snape was a bad guy.

 

At the end of the series I was very disappointed in Dumbledore. I think he was selfish and arrogant in the way he treated Harry and Snape.

 

The character I found the most evil in the series was not Voldemort. He was evil in an expected and predictable manner. The character I found the most evil was Umbridge. Her scenes in books and movies absolutely creep me out. To the point when I was in Universal Studios Orlando a year ago, I felt my skin crawl everytime the music associated with her was played in the resort.

[Seasider]

In the end I don't think he was evil. He was mean to Harry. Perhaps he disliked Harry because of James perhaps he overcompensated in his double agent role. For a while I was fooled and thought Snape was a bad guy.

 

At the end of the series I was very disappointed in Dumbledore. I think he was selfish and arrogant in the way he treated Harry and Snape.

 

The character I found the most evil in the series was not Voldemort. He was evil in an expected and predictable manner. The character I found the most evil was Umbridge. Her scenes in books and movies absolutely creep me out. To the point when I was in Universal Studios Orlando a year ago, I felt my skin crawl everytime the music associated with her was played in the resort.

I totally agree with you about Umbridge.

[Lady Florida.]

In the end I don't think he was evil. He was mean to Harry. Perhaps he disliked Harry because of James perhaps he overcompensated in his double agent role. For a while I was fooled and thought Snape was a bad guy.

 

At the end of the series I was very disappointed in Dumbledore. I think he was selfish and arrogant in the way he treated Harry and Snape.

 

The character I found the most evil in the series was not Voldemort. He was evil in an expected and predictable manner. The character I found the most evil was Umbridge. Her scenes in books and movies absolutely creep me out. To the point when I was in Universal Studios Orlando a year ago, I felt my skin crawl everytime the music associated with her was played in the resort.

 

I agree that Snape wasn't evil. He was however, a mean, nasty, bitter person. And a creepy stalker.

 

Dumbledore never pretended to be as noble as people made him out to be. While he wasn't forthcoming about all the things he did (including his excessive love of power as a young man), he always presented himself as flawed. People just didn't want to believe him.

 

I agree about Umbridge. And I only recently found out that Imelda Staunton is married to Jim Carter. Carter was Downton Abbey's Mr. Carson. Poor Mr. Carson, married to Delores Umbridge.  :lol:  (Actually, reading about their relationship it sounds quite sweet.)

Edited October 3, 2016 by Lady Florida.

[gardenmom5]

starting from the beginning - snape was saying the counter curse to keep harry on his broom.  he was no cardboard cutout. . . it was obvious there was more than met the eye.

 

I do think he was torn as he dealt with harry - he hated him for being james potter's son, but he was also lily's son.   those were completely separate from voldermort.

 

eta: when I would see things that were very contrary- I thought there had to be more to the story - what is going on?  even with the claims of "dumbledore trusts him" . . . I wanted to know 'why'?  and was convinced there was something else there.

Edited October 3, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Mimm]

In the end I don't think he was evil. He was mean to Harry. Perhaps he disliked Harry because of James perhaps he overcompensated in his double agent role. For a while I was fooled and thought Snape was a bad guy.

 

At the end of the series I was very disappointed in Dumbledore. I think he was selfish and arrogant in the way he treated Harry and Snape.

 

The character I found the most evil in the series was not Voldemort. He was evil in an expected and predictable manner. The character I found the most evil was Umbridge. Her scenes in books and movies absolutely creep me out. To the point when I was in Universal Studios Orlando a year ago, I felt my skin crawl everytime the music associated with her was played in the resort.

 

I think it's a very common sentiment to hate Umbridge even more than Voldemort, and I read some comment one time that the reason people feel that way is that Umbridge is evil in more relatable ways. People have actually been affected by people like Umbridge in their lives.

 

Dumbledore's character is interesting. He seems god-like and infallible in the start of the series and by the end, he's just a man. A man who made mistakes and did his best and had his own motives for what he did. Harry really grows up in the books and I feel like nowhere is that more evident than in how he sees Dumbledore. Even more so than learning that his father too had flaws. Learning that the people we look up to and admire as children are just human can be a difficult life lesson.

[gardenmom5]

I watched the video on snape that monica in switzerland posted.

 

many characters were eventually presented with flaws or better sides.  not one-dimensional.

 

petunia wrote to dumbledore becasue she wanted to go to hogwarts too, and eventually confesses to harry the night his parents died - she lost her sister.

Dudley wanted to know why harry wasn't coming with them when the dursely's fled their home, and that harry wasn't a waste of space

dumbldore was a bit too interested in power and fame when younger

narcissa LIED to voldermort after checking that harry was alive. (and as soon as she got her son back - she left the final battle.  she didn't want to follow V anymore, and at least for awhile, had only been doing so out of fear.  (as opposed to bellatrix, who swooned (I can't think of the word I want) over V.)

malfoy seems torn and about to back down from killing dumbledore - and he doesn't tell bellatrix that it's harry when it could get them back in voldermorts good graces.

james potter bullied snape.  (perfectly understandable why snape hated him.)

 

snape seemed horrified when he realized that dumbledore was keeping harry alive so voldermort could kill him 'at the proper moment'.

it seems when he's talking to D. that he doesn't want to do "this" anymore . .that "this" is being a double agent.

I also think he may well have lied to umbrage when she demanded veritaserum to use on harry, claiming he didn't have any.

and when he showed up when V. was torturing the muggle studies professor, I was left with the impression snape was sorry he couldn't do anything for her.  but to try and help her would have exposed himself, and hindered the much bigger goal of stopping V. for good.

snape was in a very hard place.

Edited October 3, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

 

The character I found the most evil in the series was not Voldemort. He was evil in an expected and predictable manner. The character I found the most evil was Umbridge. Her scenes in books and movies absolutely creep me out. To the point when I was in Universal Studios Orlando a year ago, I felt my skin crawl everytime the music associated with her was played in the resort.

 

umbridge is a case study in narcisstic personality disorder. . . .

 

clip-clop clip-clop, clip-clop. . . .  .hehehehe

[poppy]

I don't really like young James.   James was just a rich, smart, jock with a mean streak.  His redeeming quality was........ he was nice to Lupin?

Sirius was flawed too, sure, but he's from a blatantly evil background so had a loooot further to go.

And of course it's tragic how life turned for all 3.  4 if you include Snape.  Actually life really really sucked for Pettigrew too.  Ugh. There is a lot of fanfic from the that era but I don't tend to read it.  No matter what happens, they all have pretty sad futures.

 

umbridge is a case study in narcisstic personality disorder. . . .

 

clip-clop clip-clop, clip-clop. . . .  .hehehehe

 

See now, I have always felt odd about what we're supposed to assume happened to  Umbridge. That was the most ruthless thing Hermione ever did.

 

Edited October 3, 2016 by poppy

[Rosie_0801]

umbridge is a case study in narcisstic personality disorder. . . .

 

clip-clop clip-clop, clip-clop. . . .  .hehehehe

I disagree. Narcissists want to be liked.

 

Umbridge was just a very, very nasty woman.

[gardenmom5]

 

 

 

See now, I have always felt odd about what we're supposed to assume happened to  Umbridge. That was the most ruthless thing Hermione ever did.

 

hermione was trying to escape what umbrage had planned for them.  she was taking her to grawp -not the centaurs.  they just happened to show up at an opportune time.  

grawp was gentle for a giant - though he didn't understand much about being gentle.  (hagrid does have the ability to tame beasts . . . . )

[scoutingmom]

I watched the video on snape that monica in switzerland posted.

 

many characters were eventually presented with flaws or better sides. not one-dimensional.

 

petunia wrote to dumbledore becasue she wanted to go to hogwarts too, and eventually confesses to harry the night his parents died - she lost her sister.

Dudley wanted to know why harry wasn't coming with them when the dursely's fled their home, and that harry wasn't a waste of space

dumbldore was a bit too interested in power and fame when younger

narcissa LIED to voldermort after checking that harry was alive. (and as soon as she got her son back - she left the final battle. she didn't want to follow V anymore, and at least for awhile, had only been doing so out of fear. (as opposed to bellatrix, who swooned (I can't think of the word I want) over V.)

malfoy seems torn and about to back down from killing dumbledore - and he doesn't tell bellatrix that it's harry when it could get them back in voldermorts good graces.

james potter bullied snape. (perfectly understandable why snape hated him.)

 

snape seemed horrified when he realized that dumbledore was keeping harry alive so voldermort could kill him 'at the proper moment'.

it seems when he's talking to D. that he doesn't want to do "this" anymore . .that "this" is being a double agent.

I also think he may well have lied to umbrage when she demanded veritaserum to use on harry, claiming he didn't have any.

and when he showed up when V. was torturing the muggle studies professor, I was left with the impression snape was sorry he couldn't do anything for her. but to try and help her would have exposed himself, and hindered the much bigger goal of stopping V. for good.

snape was in a very hard place.

Not only do I think Snape lied to umbradge about the veritiserum.... he did it in such a way to tell Harry that Chow (did I get the name right?) did not willingly betray Dumbuldore's Army.... a pretty kind gesture.

 

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[Tanaqui]

Snape is a terrible teacher, and should never have been allowed in front of a classroom.

 

Also, that entire generation of wizards needed some serious therapy. Snape did wrong by taking out his petty childhood quarrels on his students... but he's hardly the only adult Harry meets to treat him like a replacement James.

 

However, in the end, Snape gave his life to save others, and that counts for something.

 

See now, I have always felt odd about what we're supposed to assume happened to  Umbridge. That was the most ruthless thing Hermione ever did.

 

Hermione absolutely has the capacity to be spiteful and vindictive, and that combined with the conviction that she's always the smartest person in the room is a bad, bad thing. But when I was 15, I would have been equally awful to somebody I hated, if I had the chance.

 

What strikes me as ruthless is her editing her parents' memories. It's never made clear in the books whether they consented or not.

[bettyandbob]

Snape is a terrible teacher, and should never have been allowed in front of a classroom.

 

Also, that entire generation of wizards needed some serious therapy. Snape did wrong by taking out his petty childhood quarrels on his students... but he's hardly the only adult Harry meets to treat him like a replacement James.

 

 

 

What strikes me as ruthless is her editing her parents' memories. It's never made clear in the books whether they consented or not.

Hermione did that to save their lives. I didn't see that as ruthless. She took away their memory of her so they could get away from the wizarding world and be less in danger. I suppose she could have asked them "do you want to forget you have a daughter?" And told them she was going to be deeply involved in the war and have a good chance of dying. However, if she did that they would not likely agree and end up in more danger because they'd want to keep track of what she was doing.

[Rosie_0801]

Hermione did that to save their lives. I didn't see that as ruthless. She took away their memory of her so they could get away from the wizarding world and be less in danger. I suppose she could have asked them "do you want to forget you have a daughter?" And told them she was going to be deeply involved in the war and have a good chance of dying. However, if she did that they would not likely agree and end up in more danger because they'd want to keep track of what she was doing.

 

I thought it was a great way of showing that adulthood had come. I cry every time.

[Kathryn]

I thought it was a great way of showing that adulthood had come. I cry every time.

I agree. I saw it as a tremendous act of self-sacrifice.

[poppy]

The only person on Earth who would be told "I am on a mission to battle the evil overlord and you may be collateral damage "  and react "OK, grumble grumble, guess I'll go into hiding" is Vernon Dursley. 

 

By the way, I just started listening to the podcast Harry Potter and the Sacred Text which reads the 1st book the way we'd read a ... well, sacred text. I recommend it! It doesn't elevate the book to be Bible-like or anything like that- it is a  thoughtful exercise that I think anyone could relate to.  The reflection about the mutual loneliness of Harry and that zoo snake was really poignant.