Religion question, non-PC

[Janeway]

I am trying to get a grip on some things. People here seem to be well educated and well informed, so, I thought I would ask here. I do not want to cause a fight though or ruffle a bunch of feathers.

 

I grew up with non-religous parents and rarely went to church. I never did youth group or anything like that. We rarely even attended on holidays. As an adult, I took it upon myself to read the bible and go to bible studies here in the south.

 

My husband grew up with Catholic parents. His mother is very militant about her religion to the point of throwing it in my face and my children's faces, often. She is very extreme. We do not have a relationship with her. I suspect she just uses religion to attack, but would attack with whatever weapon she had. But my husband did go to Catholic schools growing up.

 

Here is the south, well, a lot of southern religion people.

 

The southern religion people and the Catholics all seem to say a lot that their religion is the only real religion and the only real Christian church. The southern people will have their statement that the entire bible is the word of God, inspired by God, and one must follow it all and believe it all comes directly from the Lord or that person is not a Christian. I have had where I admitted my husband was Catholic where the person prays for my husband. 

 

My husband is very insistent that he is not Catholic anymore. But, when topics or religion or history come up, it is clear that he still has a Catholic thought or frame of mind. This actually bothers me. 

 

But basically, these religions all seem to teach that anyone that is not a part of their church specifically is going to Hell. Even when specific examples of people who have done wonderful things, that those people are sitting in Hell right now for being in the wrong religion. So, all those firefighters who died in 9/11? They all went to Hell except for the ones who belonged to the correct church.

 

 

The question is..when did these religions begin? Have all religions always taught that they were the only way and everyone else was destined for hell? Is there a name for this belief? If all Jewish people went to Hell, would that include Joseph? Or is it just the Jewish people after Christ died?

 

Can you be a Christian if you do not believe in any of that stuff? So I used to think I was Christian because I read the Gospels and followed the rules Jesus specifically set forth. But because I do not believe all the rules of the old and new testament are inspired by God, I would not be Christian? How do the churches pick which rules they follow in the bible? For example, I might be at a church that will bring things up from the old testaments as the word of God, therefore, we must follow. But then, the women would have their ears pierced and pork would be in the food served at the pot luck. 

 

Here is a summary of the questions

 

1) is there one universal definition that is academically accepted for the term "Christian"

 

2) is there a word for the belief that everyone who is not of one's church is going to Hell?

 

3) is the believe I mentioned in #2 believed by any non-Christian religions?

 

4) any other questions I failed to spell out in this summary.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Janeway

[Bluegoat]

1) is there one universal definition that is academically accepted for the term "Christian"

 

Yes and no, it depends on context.  It can be used to varying degrees for people who are in some way descended from the followers of Jesus and the early Christians.  In a lot of cases, historians and theologians will tend to define core or orthodox Christianity a little more narrowly.  Often, the measure used may be whether the group is Trinitarian, or whether they fall into any of the other major heresies.  Groups that fall outside of that (like Unitarian Christians) are considered a form of unorthodox Christianity, or sometimes are seen as a kind of split-off group from Christianity.

 

But it does depend on why people are choosing to draw a line - is it to say who is part of the Church, or who to include in a history book, or what? 

 

2) is there a word for the belief that everyone who is not of one's church is going to Hell?

 

I am not sure.

 

3) is the believe I mentioned in #2 believed by any non-Christian religions?

 

There are groups within other religions but I don't know if there are any where it is universal.  It certainly isn't universal even within traditional Christianity.

 

4) any other questions I failed to spell out in this summary.

 

One thing to keep in mind is whatever those Catholics are saying, the Catholic Church doesn't teach that all non-Catholics or non-Christians are going to Hell.  And they haven't historically either. 

 

More generally, not all religions have always taught that they are the only way.  Some don't talk about Hell at all, or the afterlife. 

 

There are certain characteristics about American religion that seem to have more to do with national culture than the religion itself - southern Catholicism often seems to have been strongly influenced by American fundamentalism, for example, and has features that wouldn't be looked on favorably in, say, The Vatican.

 

[IdahoHomeschooler]

1) No. Although you will find that people will say 'yes,' and then give you their definition.

2) No, I haven't ever come across a term for that.

3) Not sure, but 'hell,' as defined by Christians, is unique to Christians. Other religions have different concepts of what occurs in the afterlife. I believe that includes Jews, as well, but they would need to weigh in on that for clarification.

 

These are all good questions, but you will likely find that the answers will vary based on world views. I'm agnostic, raised Protestant, converted to Catholicism. I find religion fascinating. There are hundreds, probably thousands, of 'Christian' denominations, and likely the only thing they agree on is that their denomination is the 'right' one. Most of the other details are variable, based on personal beliefs. I would say that if you wanted to call yourself a Christian, based on your beliefs, that a UU church would be a decent fit. There are many 'Christians' that wouldn't consider you a Christian, based on what you wrote.

[Farrar]

This is an aside from the questions directly, but...

 

Most Catholics I know do not believe that non-Catholics are going to hell.

 

There are Christians who believe not only that other Christians aren't going to hell, but that basically no one is. Universal salvation doctrine. Not uncommon in some Episcopalian churches among other places. Basically there's a huge variation on this. Not even all Evangelicals believe that people not in their specific church are going to hell.

 

I was raised Southern Baptist. Dh was raised Catholic in New England (by atheist parents... some people make their children do the whole thing even though they don't buy it... don't get me started). The gulf of cultural assumptions about religion and Christianity is HUGE. I feel like I've mostly gotten a handle on it, but it's still pretty fascinating to me. For me, the biggest difference is the assumption dh has that if you're going to do church, nearly any Mass will do. It's an exaggeration, but to some extent, Catholicism is the McDonald's of religion - every French fry is the same. But I was raised to think each church community is the church and is the most important thing. Especially when it comes to Baptist churches, every one is a different diner - the French fries will be radically different and you expect that.

 

 

[Katy]

Wow, that's a lot of questions.  I'll come back to this with more details later, but you might want to try the Methodist Church.  They're in most smaller southern towns, they are not as self-righteous as Southern Baptists, they are more intellectual and open to questioning, they have a liturgical service that will appeal to your DH without offending you, and they are more focused on service and less focused on shoving their beliefs down your throat.

 

Also a Methodist pastor Adam Hamilton wrote a book called Christianity's Family Tree that discusses different denominations and how they got that way, and what the best aspect of each of them is.  There's a follow up book too, but I haven't read that one yet so I can't recommend it.

[Janeway]

This is an aside from the questions directly, but...

 

Most Catholics I know do not believe that non-Catholics are going to hell.

 

There are Christians who believe not only that other Christians aren't going to hell, but that basically no one is. Universal salvation doctrine. Not uncommon in some Episcopalian churches among other places. Basically there's a huge variation on this. Not even all Evangelicals believe that people not in their specific church are going to hell.

 

I was raised Southern Baptist. Dh was raised Catholic in New England (by atheist parents... some people make their children do the whole thing even though they don't buy it... don't get me started). The gulf of cultural assumptions about religion and Christianity is HUGE. I feel like I've mostly gotten a handle on it, but it's still pretty fascinating to me. For me, the biggest difference is the assumption dh has that if you're going to do church, nearly any Mass will do. It's an exaggeration, but to some extent, Catholicism is the McDonald's of religion - every French fry is the same. But I was raised to think each church community is the church and is the most important thing. Especially when it comes to Baptist churches, every one is a different diner - the French fries will be radically different and you expect that.

My parents did that. They would drop me off at confirmation, but then they never attended. We were required to all do a month as an Accolite (spelling?) while in confirmation. So I would go to those church services to do the role, but my parents never attended. 

[TranquilMind]

I do not know if there is a word for those who believe that people not in their particular church are going to hell, but it is not scriptural.

 

Jesus said, "And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd " John 10:16

 

He has one church, comprised of true believers from all over.  They have various divisions right now but they will all come into unity and are already in unity on the essentials, I believe.  Believers, not church members.  Some believers are church members of course, but the two are not necessarily the same at all.  There are churches in apostasy and churches that walk the straight and narrow path as best they know, and everything in between.  (See letters to the churches in Revelation).    That is for Jesus to sort out.  We are judged on what we know, and on doing right with the level of spiritual knowledge and truth we had at the time, not on what we don't know. 

 

Christian:  those who there is one triune God,  the Jesus is God in the flesh, that salvation is by grace alone, and  believe in the death, burial, and physical Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Those are the essentials, not being a member of a particular group.  

 

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;  1 Tim 2:5

 

John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,

 

Ephesians 2:8  For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

 

1 Cor 15: 1-4  Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;  ² By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.  ³ For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;  ⁴ And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

 

1 Cor 15: 12-22

¹² Now if Christ is preached that He rose from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? ¹³ If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not risen. ¹⁴ If Christ has not risen, then our preaching is vain, and your faith is also vain. ¹⁵ Yes, and we would then be found false witnesses of God, because we have testified that God raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up, if in fact the dead do not rise. ¹⁶ For if the dead do not rise, then Christ has not been raised. ¹⁷ If Christ is not raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins. ¹⁸ Then they also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. ¹⁹ If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

²⁰ But now is Christ risen from the dead and become the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. ²¹ For since death came by man, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. ²² For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

The Jewish people have the Abrahamic covenant with God that (I believe) shall never end.    Moses and Elijah were at the Transfiguration - we can safely assume they are with Jesus.   In Romans, it is written:   ‘What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision?’  ‘Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God.’

 

⁴ who are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises, ⁵ to whom belong the patriarchs, and from whom, according to the flesh, is Christ, who is over all, God forever blessed. Amen.

⁶ It is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel, ⁷ nor are they all children because they are descendants of Abraham, but “In Isaac shall your descendants be called.â€^{[a] 8} So those who are the children of the flesh are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as descendants.

 

So...whomever are the "children of the promise" according to the Lord are coming in.  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

Galatians 4: 28  Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.  

 

Galatians 3:29  If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

Are the other sheep "not of this fold" just the Gentiles?  Anyone who doesn't know God yet, like Paul when he was still Saul?    Know Jesus as messiah yet?  Not clear.   But I believe God is merciful and loves everyone and I believe the Abrahamic Covenant stands "to a thousand generations" as scripture says. 

 

Sorry to write such a long post. 

 

Edited September 30, 2016 by TranquilMind

[Harriet Vane]

I am trying to get a grip on some things. People here seem to be well educated and well informed, so, I thought I would ask here. I do not want to cause a fight though or ruffle a bunch of feathers.

 

I grew up with non-religous parents and rarely went to church. I never did youth group or anything like that. We rarely even attended on holidays. As an adult, I took it upon myself to read the bible and go to bible studies here in the south.

 

My husband grew up with Catholic parents. His mother is very militant about her religion to the point of throwing it in my face and my children's faces, often. She is very extreme. We do not have a relationship with her. I suspect she just uses religion to attack, but would attack with whatever weapon she had. But my husband did go to Catholic schools growing up.

 

Here is the south, well, a lot of southern religion people.

 

The southern religion people and the Catholics all seem to say a lot that their religion is the only real religion and the only real Christian church. The southern people will have their statement that the entire bible is the word of God, inspired by God, and one must follow it all and believe it all comes directly from the Lord or that person is not a Christian. I have had where I admitted my husband was Catholic where the person prays for my husband. 

 

My husband is very insistent that he is not Catholic anymore. But, when topics or religion or history come up, it is clear that he still has a Catholic thought or frame of mind. This actually bothers me. 

 

But basically, these religions all seem to teach that anyone that is not a part of their church specifically is going to Hell. Even when specific examples of people who have done wonderful things, that those people are sitting in Hell right now for being in the wrong religion. So, all those firefighters who died in 9/11? They all went to Hell except for the ones who belonged to the correct church.

 

 

The question is..when did these religions begin? Have all religions always taught that they were the only way and everyone else was destined for hell? Is there a name for this belief? If all Jewish people went to Hell, would that include Joseph? Or is it just the Jewish people after Christ died?

 

Can you be a Christian if you do not believe in any of that stuff? So I used to think I was Christian because I read the Gospels and followed the rules Jesus specifically set forth. But because I do not believe all the rules of the old and new testament are inspired by God, I would not be Christian? How do the churches pick which rules they follow in the bible? For example, I might be at a church that will bring things up from the old testaments as the word of God, therefore, we must follow. But then, the women would have their ears pierced and pork would be in the food served at the pot luck. 

 

Here is a summary of the questions

 

1) is there one universal definition that is academically accepted for the term "Christian"

 

2) is there a word for the belief that everyone who is not of one's church is going to Hell?

 

3) is the believe I mentioned in #2 believed by any non-Christian religions?

 

4) any other questions I failed to spell out in this summary.

 

1--People argue about the definition of Christian. IMO, there are two ways to look at it. There are many who attend church who consider themselves to be Christian. Culturally, they are--they identify with that people group in rituals and values. The other way to look at it is to say that a Christian is anyone who has made a personal commitment to a relationship with Jesus and to live according to the teachings of the Bible. That second definition can encompass people in church or out of out, and it is not confined to the boundaries of one particular church or denomination. That said, there are denominations that define "Christian" more stringently. However, biblically speaking a Christian is someone who follows Christ. 

 

2--Biblically speaking, hell is separation from God. There is considerable debate about what that means in reality. 

 

3--There are lots of non-Christian religions that believe in some form of unhappy afterlife. 

 

4--As I read the Bible, the bottom line seems to be whether or not you believe in Jesus, live in relationship with Him and in accordance with His teachings. I see it as a marriage of sorts, a promise of loyalty and love. It is not a formula--physically attending church or physically doing stuff doesn't indicate the state of your heart or your relationship with God. Rather, your loving relationship with God leads you to actions that are loving. It is not a marriage to a church. It is a marriage to God. Only God knows the state of our hearts, so only God can judge whether any of us are truly Christian or not.

 

Gotta go--I am happy to talk more if you like, either in the thread or pm.

[ktgrok]

I just have to jump in here and say that no, the Catholic church does NOT teach that non Catholics are going to hell, or that non Christians are!!!  They are our "separated bretheren" . What we say is, we know that a certain path leads to heaven, but that God is bigger than that and can do what he wants, and let in whomever he wants. 

 

A common saying is that we know that certain people are in Heaven (the Saints), but as far as we know, there could be no one in hell. 

[Joules]

I went googling because there really should be a word for #2.  The closest I found was Religious Exclusivism:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_exclusivism

https://epages.wordpress.com/2010/03/24/theology-of-religions-pluralism-inclusivism-exclusivism/

It's not perfect, because the "religion" in the definition would have to have a hell component to make it fit.

 

For #1, I really don't think there is one.  Like mentioned in one of the answers in the below link, I think any academic discussing Christianity would have to set out a definition at the beginning of the discussion.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblical/comments/4d4j9c/what_is_an_academic_definition_of_christian/

 

[Shellydon]

Christian-- Anyone that believes that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are 3 people in one and that Jesus walked the earth and died specifically for our sin.

 

2)  I don't think there is a specific word and 3)  Absolutely.  My Muslim friends totally think that anyone that is not Muslim is doomed.

 

 

Good questions!

[Onceuponatime]

1) C.S. Lewis tried to answer that question with his book Mere Christianity. People of all denominations love to read it and believe it applies to them, yet still reject others who call themselves christian. From an objective academic standpoint, it is often the choice to just accept that any one who calls themselves a christian is one. If you don't, someone will always come up with a "no true Scotsman" argument.

 

2) Universalists, some episcopalians, some Quakers, and a few others, either don't believe in a hell, or don't believe only their group will be saved. Many who think like this call themselves "progressive" christians. I read some lovely books by Marcus Borg when I went through this stage of my questioning. Salvation for these kind of believers is fairly easy and very generous. Some people believe that you can be a christian by just following the teachings of Jesus as a wise man and that the bible is easier to handle when taken metaphorically, rather than literally.

 

3) I don't know enough about non- christian religions, but I think some brands of buddhism are very inclusive and non-condemnatory.

 

4) Once I had many of the same questions you have asked here. I did an in depth study of hell and found it to be largely absent from the Old Testament. There the word Sheol, translated death/the grave/hell was almost synonymous with the greek hades, an underworld where all the dead went. In the New Testament there are three words translated hell: hades, gehenna, and Tartarus. Look them up. Personally, I found no reason to believe that any of them actually exist. My study led me to become an atheist.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Onceuponatime

[heartlikealion]

 

My husband is very insistent that he is not Catholic anymore. But, when topics or religion or history come up, it is clear that he still has a Catholic thought or frame of mind. This actually bothers me.

 

Why? Does Catholicism in general bother you or just your MIL or what?

 

 

1) is there one universal definition that is academically accepted for the term "Christian"

 

I guess maybe not, but I've heard the belief in the Trinity affects the definition of Christian for many ("one God in three Divine Persons"). Mormons, for example, do not hold this belief. But Mormons probably classify themselves as Christian.

 

I live in the South. The particular part of the state where I live does not have a whole lot of Catholics. I think my church will shut down in the future because we actually have to get priests from bigger cities to travel here to say Mass.

[Frances]

I was raised Catholic and the majority of my family members are still practicing Catholics, including attending Catholic schools and colleges. There are priests and nuns in my extended family. Personally, I've never encountered a single Catholic who thinks Catholicism is the only way and everyone else is destined for hell. I never even heard of that belief until I went to college and met fundamental and evangelical Christians. I find it as astounding today as I did the first time I heard it.

[SarahW]

As others have mentioned, there is in fact a long Christian tradition which hopes for all things to be restored. Some even go so far as to hope that the Devil will be saved. This is complicated.

 

Interdenominational strife is largely a leftover of the Reformation. Lots of arguing about who was right and why and blah blah. Some people today blow that stuff out of proportion, and it causes the rank and file to think weird things, and act harshly. Jack Chick, for example, is desperately in need of restoration to a great number of things.

 

I'm being so brief, sorry. It's my bedtime.

[DesertBlossom]

I am LDS (Mormon) and we believe that all will be have the opportunity to accept the gospel of Jesus Christ. We believe that the spirits of those who have gone on are being taught and ministered to. Thankfully God is perfect and knows our hearts. I believe good people will have no problem accepting Jesus Christ as their Savior when it is offered.

 

I have heard it said that at the final judgment it won't be that people are begging for mercy only to be condemned for their actions. Instead, our Savior will be pleading to the unrepentant, pleading to them to accept his atoning sacrifice, to change their hearts and to come to him. I find that imagery much more in line with my belief that God is a loving and perfect Father who wants his children to be able to return to him..

Edited September 30, 2016 by DesertBlossom

[Janeway]

Why? Does Catholicism in general bother you or just your MIL or what

Stuff that my husband says that I assume is a part of the Catholic belief system, but might have only come from his wacky mother. Such as, the Roman Catholic Church is the only church that goes all the way back to the birth of Christ. But, I say every Christian religion goes back to then and the Roman Catholic Church of today exclusive to this. He thinks all religions teach the "one true religion" stuff and I don't. It is stuff like that.

[ktgrok]

Well, yes and no as to it being the only one that goes back to the birth of Christ. Mostly no :)

 

The original church split into the Roman and Orthodox churches, then the Roman side had offshoots from there. (to WAY oversimplify and totally leave out some of the churches that are not trinitarian, etc). So no, there was no Presbyterian church at the time of Christ, or Baptist, or whatever. But they can trace their roots through other denominations and eventually get back there. 

[Random]

Christian-- Anyone that believes that God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are 3 people in one and that Jesus walked the earth and died specifically for our sin.

 

2)  I don't think there is a specific word and 3)  Absolutely.  My Muslim friends totally think that anyone that is not Muslim is doomed.

 

 

Good questions!

 

Just so you know...there are Christians that do not believe in a trinity.

[Guest]

Re framework, it's hard to completely break away from our cultural frameworks - I grew up Catholic and it's probably taken me two decades of not being Catholic to start to see how much I see through the lens of growing up Catholic. It's no different, to me, to growing up working class, or growing up Greek, or growing up in the theater community...the culture of your childhood shapes you in ways you are often not conscious of. For good and bad.

 

Good point.  

 

I think we see this in classical education, as well.  It is all wonderful and terrific to read historic documents, but if you read them without taking into consideration the culture of the time in which it was written, you will often mis-read it.  Same with getting past a modern individualistic mindset when trying to understand the writings of Christians from other times.  

 

It has been a real eye-opener to me to see how much I see things with modern, individual eyes...especially when I am reading the writings of people from past times who were much less individualistic. 

[fairfarmhand]

Perhaps it would be helpful to you to read about some early church history?

 

First, there are no denominations in heaven. Jesus wasn't Baptist, Methodist or any other "religion" or "church."

 

Going to church doesn't keep one from condemnation. Having a personal relationship with Christ as your savior does that.

 

Let's take that famous verse John 3:16 and parse it out:

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

IS there a single word about religion or denomination in there? Nope. IT's about faith. And Christ. And that can be found in many churches across the world.

 

It doesn't read "whoever attends x,y,z church shall not perish but have eternal life." It says "Believe in Christ"

 

Period.

 

Read the Bible and you'll see for yourself.

[Ravin]

Here is a summary of the questions

 

1) is there one universal definition that is academically accepted for the term "Christian"

 

2) is there a word for the belief that everyone who is not of one's church is going to Hell?

 

3) is the believe I mentioned in #2 believed by any non-Christian religions?

 

4) any other questions I failed to spell out in this summary.

 

1. Probably not. I stopped caring about that a long time ago.

 

2. Hubris comes close.

 

3. Probably. Or at least, sections of them. 

 

4. Why do you care? What difference does it make what other people believe? Your MIL sounds like an unpleasant person.

[MaeFlowers]

You could try doing a Google Image search for "tree of Christian denominations". Most haves dates for the beginning of different denominations (though many are arguable).

[Violet Crown]

#2. The doctrine is "Extra ecclesia nulla salus," and is dogmatic Catholic doctrine.

 

And yet, as with most things dogmatic, there is a surprising amount of wiggle room.

[Janeway]

1. Probably not. I stopped caring about that a long time ago.

 

2. Hubris comes close.

 

3. Probably. Or at least, sections of them.

 

4. Why do you care? What difference does it make what other people believe? Your MIL sounds like an unpleasant person.

I care because I am trying to figure out if I am a Christian or not. I know what I believe. I want to know if I am a Christian. I am just questioning the label so I can figure out my own.

[MercyA]

Oh, boy, Janeway. Lots of good questions. :) I'll take a stab at a couple of them, probably not all at once. I'm a theologically conservative Christian of no particular denomination, so my answers are coming from that perspective.

 

If all Jewish people went to Hell, would that include Joseph? Or is it just the Jewish people after Christ died?

 

Before Christ came, righteous Jewish people did not go to hell; they went to a place referred to by Jesus as Abraham's bosom (scripture here; a good summary here). We know that King David expected to meet his son in the afterlife as well. 

 

I believe that saints who lived before Christ's death were saved by repentance and faith, even though they had incomplete knowledge of the coming Savior.

 

“Then [Abraham] believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.†Genesis 15:6 

 

"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. ‘I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted." Luke 18:10-14

 

The Bible also indicates that in the past God had mercy on those who were ignorant about Him:

 

"Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.†Acts 17:30-31 (Read Paul's whole sermon in Athens here.)

 

Now, faith in Christ (not membership in any particular church) is necessary for salvation:

 

"And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.†Acts 4:12

 

Jesus said to him, â€œI am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

 

I do believe that those who have not heard of Christ will be judged based on the knowledge they did have and how they responded to it:

 

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Romans 1:20

 

"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened." Matthew 7:8

Edited October 1, 2016 by MercyA

[heartlikealion]

I care because I am trying to figure out if I am a Christian or not. I know what I believe. I want to know if I am a Christian. I am just questioning the label so I can figure out my own.

 

Well, do you want to be? Have you ever been baptized?

 

As far as the Christian definition, I still think it depends who you ask about what they believe the definition is. In this thread I've already seen the contradiction. Really, if someone told me they were a Christian I wouldn't really be thinking about their baptism or the belief in the Holy Trinity so much as I'd think they meant follower of Christ. And someone that believes Jesus died for our sins.

[MercyA]

How do the churches pick which rules they follow in the bible? For example, I might be at a church that will bring things up from the old testaments as the word of God, therefore, we must follow. But then, the women would have their ears pierced and pork would be in the food served at the pot luck. 

 

The New Testament teaches that Christians are not under the law given to the Jewish people.

 

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Romans 10:4

 

"For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace." Romans 6:14

 

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Galatians 3:24 (I recommend reading all of Galatians 3 for more insight on this.)

 

I believe Christians are only obligated to obey those Old Testament commandments which are repeated by Christ or his apostles in the New Testament. 

Edited September 30, 2016 by MercyA

[MercyA]

I care because I am trying to figure out if I am a Christian or not. I know what I believe. I want to know if I am a Christian. I am just questioning the label so I can figure out my own.

 

When I was questioning whether or not I was a Christian, I found the book of 1 John to be very helpful. Blessings to you in your search.

 

ETA: gotquestions.org is also an excellent, non-denominational resource.

Edited October 1, 2016 by MercyA

[Pen]

But then, the women would have their ears pierced and pork would be in the food served at the pot luck. 

 

 

 

 

Hunh???

 

Here is a summary of the questions

 

1) is there one universal definition that is academically accepted for the term "Christian"

 

No.

 

2) is there a word for the belief that everyone who is not of one's church is going to Hell?

 

There should be!

 

3) is the believe I mentioned in #2 believed by any non-Christian religions?

 

Yes. Islam and various pre-Christian religions no doubt had something like that so long as you don't specifically require the word and concept of "hell."  But certainly the idea that we are right and all others are wrong in an extreme way is not unique.  I suppose that that sort of belief might also be related to ancient Romans throwing Jews and later Christians in with lions for entertainment.

 

4) any other questions I failed to spell out in this summary.

 

How does a person know when he or she is ready to move to something else than what s/he has been used to in terms of religion?  Is the belief that all but us are damned (which sure could use a name!) true, or is there some reason historically/psychologically/culturally that this developed.  If it is not true, what does that mean for you personally? Or, vice versa?  Is there any way that two different religious groups that both believe this both be right? Do both go to heaven based on their own belief or both go to hell based on the belief of the other group? Is there a heaven? Is there a hell?

 

[Bluegoat]

It's worthwhile to consider as well that Hell can be thought of or described in different ways within the Christian tradition.  Some people think of it as a separation from God, or as a kind of punishment or place of banishment.

 

Another way though to frame it is that all people are in the presence of God after death, the objects of his love, but how they experience that depends on their orientation to it. 

[Guest]

I care because I am trying to figure out if I am a Christian or not. I know what I believe. I want to know if I am a Christian. I am just questioning the label so I can figure out my own.

I'm speaking from ONE perspective here--my own. Not trying to prescribe something. It has come up in this thread that we think a certain way because of the way we were raised, or because of the times in which we live. One of the ideas that was more accepted in other times than it is in ours is that there is such a thing as Truth. Moderns think in terms of relative truth--"my truth," whatever is true for you," and so on. In theory, I have decided that there is Truth but as I have been raised in the 20th Century, I STILL can't get my mind around this. That's a long introduction to the question I want to pose.

 

Do you think that truth exists within of your own ability to create it? If so, that takes you one direction. You need to create your own truth. If you determine, instead, that Truth exists outside of you, in an absolute sense, that is a different question, and leads another direction. You set out to match your own self to what is True.

 

This was stated in a much more succinct manner by CS Lewis, who came down on the side of absolute Truth, stated (much better than I have said or will cite) that he was far less concerned about what he believed than he was about finding out what a Christian believed--and adhering to that Truth.

 

This might seem a bit roundabout, but it was an important part of my own path, and I share it as such.

 

Pilate: What is Truth? The response: Behold the man. That was what I had to contend with.

 

God be with you. Please forgive me and correct me if I have overstepped my bounds. Edited to correct writing where I lost my train of thought.

[nd293]

I care because I am trying to figure out if I am a Christian or not. I know what I believe. I want to know if I am a Christian. I am just questioning the label so I can figure out my own.

Have you come across the phrase "Jesus-follower"? I have seen it is used by some to separate out a focus on doctrine (the sorts of questions you want answered to see if you're a Christian) from a focus on the example and teachings of Christ. If you're not planning on joining a church, and don't need to justify your beliefs to anyone except yourself, then this might be a useful distinction.

[The Girls' Mom]

Well, I can definitely say that the denominations you'll find in the south were not around from the beginning..lol.  Try after the 1500s or so.  

 

I think to work through a lot of your questions, you should read the Bible from cover to cover, perhaps with some commentaries from different perspectives. Then you may have a lot of them answered.  But you will likely come up with a lot more questions you haven't thought of yet.

 

To me, a Christian is one that believes in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made for our salvation.  It has nothing to do with what building you are sitting in on Saturday or Sunday, but with your relationship with God.  

[Janeway]

Well, I can definitely say that the denominations you'll find in the south were not around from the beginning..lol.  Try after the 1500s or so.  

 

I think to work through a lot of your questions, you should read the Bible from cover to cover, perhaps with some commentaries from different perspectives. Then you may have a lot of them answered.  But you will likely come up with a lot more questions you haven't thought of yet.

 

To me, a Christian is one that believes in Jesus Christ and the sacrifice He made for our salvation.  It has nothing to do with what building you are sitting in on Saturday or Sunday, but with your relationship with God.  

I already have read it cover to cover and back again. I was just trying to figure out if the label Christian fits me or not. Your last paragraph would fit me for sure, so I would be a Christian. But then, other beliefs do not fit me and it has gotten to the point where I feel that perhaps I am not a Christian. So, I am not curious about what I might believe but rather if the term Christian fits me. So, I do not believe in the Trinity, but, I do not think that is a qualifier because Mormons are definitely Christian and they do not believe in the Trinity. In fact, my belief system does follow the Mormon church a lot, but, I am different in some ways too. Like, I do not believe prayer matters. It makes the praying person feel better. But I believe in free will and do not believe God micromanages us. And I do not believe the bible is the infallable word of God. I think it is a piece of literature that tells us a lot about the times long ago. But I also know some Christian religions believe that too. 

[ktgrok]

I already have read it cover to cover and back again. I was just trying to figure out if the label Christian fits me or not. Your last paragraph would fit me for sure, so I would be a Christian. But then, other beliefs do not fit me and it has gotten to the point where I feel that perhaps I am not a Christian. So, I am not curious about what I might believe but rather if the term Christian fits me. So, I do not believe in the Trinity, but, I do not think that is a qualifier because Mormons are definitely Christian and they do not believe in the Trinity. In fact, my belief system does follow the Mormon church a lot, but, I am different in some ways too. Like, I do not believe prayer matters. It makes the praying person feel better. But I believe in free will and do not believe God micromanages us. And I do not believe the bible is the infallable word of God. I think it is a piece of literature that tells us a lot about the times long ago. But I also know some Christian religions believe that too. 

 

You sound like a Unitarian Universalist perhaps. You'd fit in to an Episcopal congregation pretty well, except for the Trinity thing, but no one would care. 

[6packofun]

because Mormons are definitely Christian and they do not believe in the Trinity. 

 

That depends on how much you think you can change the nature and character of Jesus and God the Father in your belief system without it becoming an offshoot of or entirely new religion simply based upon Christianity.  Think that's harsh?  Then you're probably someone who likes the No True Scotsman fallacy because you think that there IS no way to determine a Christian.  I'd beg to differ and find these answers within the Bible and that qualifies many many denominations for at least foundational Christianity even if they practice differently.  If a practice goes off into the weeds based on a different interpretation of the very simple gospel, I question it.

 

Read  the words of Jesus, the book of Acts, and 1 and 2 Corinthians for some specifics on Christianity and the gospel itself.  Feel like adding requirements to the gospel? Not the gospel.  And so on.

[Bluegoat]

There is always a fuzzy line where religious systems that are related are no longer considered different versions of the same thing, or different things with some relationship.

 

o, early Christianity was considered a form of Judaism, but we wouldn't tend to say that today, though clearly they are related.  And When Islam first began to appear, some theologians considered it a CHristian heresy, rather than a seperate religion, but while there is a logic to that we would tend to say they are seperate but related. 

 

So when you get to something like JW, or Mormonism, noone doubts that they are related to CHristianity, obviously they are historically and in other ways too, but you can argue whether they share the essential charachteristics or if there are enough significant differences to see them more like Jusaism and Christianity.

[PeachyDoodle]

I already have read it cover to cover and back again. I was just trying to figure out if the label Christian fits me or not. Your last paragraph would fit me for sure, so I would be a Christian. But then, other beliefs do not fit me and it has gotten to the point where I feel that perhaps I am not a Christian. So, I am not curious about what I might believe but rather if the term Christian fits me. So, I do not believe in the Trinity, but, I do not think that is a qualifier because Mormons are definitely Christian and they do not believe in the Trinity. In fact, my belief system does follow the Mormon church a lot, but, I am different in some ways too. Like, I do not believe prayer matters. It makes the praying person feel better. But I believe in free will and do not believe God micromanages us. And I do not believe the bible is the infallable word of God. I think it is a piece of literature that tells us a lot about the times long ago. But I also know some Christian religions believe that too. 

 

The ancient creeds will give you an idea of the basic tenets that most orthodox Christian denominations have held to. There are exceptions, I'm sure, although I won't claim to know what they are. The creeds were written by Christian councils, often in response to particular heresies. For information about the beliefs of specific denominations/versions of Christianity, you can look at their various confessions -- e.g., Westminster Confession (Reformed), Book of Concord (Lutheran), London Baptist Confession (Baptist), etc.

 

The Nicene Creed

I believe in one God,

   the Father Almighty,

   maker of heaven and earth

and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,

   the only-begotten Son of God,

   begotten of His Father before all worlds,

   God of God, Light of Light,

   very God of very God,

   begotten, not made,

   being of one substance with the Father,

   by whom all things were made;

   who for us men* and for our salvation came down from heaven

   and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary

   and was made man;

   and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate.

   He suffered and was buried.

   And the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures

      and ascended into heaven

   and sits at the right hand of the Father.

   And He will come again with glory to judge both the living and the dead,

   whose kingdom will have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the Lord and giver of life,

who proceeds from the Father and the Son,

who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified,

who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church,

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins,

and I look for the resurrection of the dead

and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The Apostles' Creed

I believe in God, the Father Almighty,

maker of heaven and earth.

And in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord,

who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,

born of the virgin Mary,

suffered under Pontius Pilate,

was crucified, died and was buried.

He descended into hell.

On the third day He rose again from the dead.

He ascended into heaven

and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.

From thence He will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,

the holy Christian Church,

the communion of saints,

the forgiveness of sins,

the resurrection of the body,

and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[MotherGoose]

I am a Southern Protestant adult convert to Catholicism, who was raised never even meeting a Catholic until college (because they didn't exist where I lived, at least that anyone knew of). So I thought all the typical stereotypes about Catholicism were true. They aren't. I also have been around many Baptists and non denominational folks who say they believe every word of the Bible is literally true, and if it's not in the Bible, they don't believe it (which, in general, is actually false, if you really talk to them about it detail). I became a Catholic because it is so beautifully logical and goes past all those issues. I'm sorry you had such a terrible experience with your mother in law. The first Christians were Catholics, and every Christian was, until the Reformation when, in my opinion, they threw out the baby with the bath water. My priest refers to non-Catholic Christians as "our brothers and sisters in Christ." I would never say anyone, even the most egregious sinner, is going to Hell. That's not for me to decide. I think that in general, if you believe Christ, who was both God and man, died for your sins and have been baptized, you are a Christian.

[MercyA]

The first Christians were Catholics, and every Christian was, until the Reformation when, in my opinion, they threw out the baby with the bath water. 

 

Some of us would beg to differ.  ;) I like this simple article on which church is the original church of Jesus Christ.

 

I'm not looking for a debate, so that's all I'll say on the topic here. Peace to all.

[Rosie_0801]

Maybe the 'Deist' label would fit better?

[Audrey]

My husband is very insistent that he is not Catholic anymore. But, when topics or religion or history come up, it is clear that he still has a Catholic thought or frame of mind. This actually bothers me.

My husband is like this, too. He insists he has no Catholic leanings (he doesn't believe in any deities), but whenever religion comes up, he also insists The Church (capital T, capital C :rolleyes: ) is the first Christian blah, blah, blah. He'll defend that and defend the less gruesome and unsavoury catholic stuff, too.

 

This used to sometimes bother me, sometimes bemuse me, but I've since chalked it up to the aftereffects of 18 years of brainwashing. You can't ever really get clean of it all. I no longer see it as a contradiction in who he is or what he says he believes/doesn't believe. I just acknowledge that this is something that he's been conditioned to do and that it doesn't have any further impact in his life other than that his conditioned auto-response is bound to come out at some point in certain types of religion conversations.

 

I don't have anything to say about your other questions. I'm not religious and don't care about points of religion, especially when it comes to defining who is and isn't a True Whatever.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Audrey

[MotherGoose]

I do not wish to engage in a debate, either. I think the important thing for Christians is to love Christ. However, information like http://www.catholic.com/documents/pillar-of-fire-pillar-of-truth is what led me to Catholicism.

[Bluegoat]

I am a Southern Protestant adult convert to Catholicism, who was raised never even meeting a Catholic until college (because they didn't exist where I lived, at least that anyone knew of). So I thought all the typical stereotypes about Catholicism were true. They aren't. I also have been around many Baptists and non denominational folks who say they believe every word of the Bible is literally true, and if it's not in the Bible, they don't believe it (which, in general, is actually false, if you really talk to them about it detail). I became a Catholic because it is so beautifully logical and goes past all those issues. I'm sorry you had such a terrible experience with your mother in law. The first Christians were Catholics, and every Christian was, until the Reformation when, in my opinion, they threw out the baby with the bath water. My priest refers to non-Catholic Christians as "our brothers and sisters in Christ." I would never say anyone, even the most egregious sinner, is going to Hell. That's not for me to decide. I think that in general, if you believe Christ, who was both God and man, died for your sins and have been baptized, you are a Christian.

 

I think it's really rather difficult to argue that the Catholic Church somehow predates the Orthodox Church.  And the Orthodox aren't likely to want to say they "used to be" Catholic before the schism.

[ktgrok]

I think it's really rather difficult to argue that the Catholic Church somehow predates the Orthodox Church.  And the Orthodox aren't likely to want to say they "used to be" Catholic before the schism.

 

True, I think saying the Catholic Church, and Orthodox Church, trace back to the first Christians is a better way to say it. I'm guessing that is what she meant. 

[goldberry]

Just my expression, but I would say that the core belief of Christianity is that Jesus is our means of salvation and that he died for that purpose.  Accompanying that core belief is imitating Jesus to the greatest extent possible in appreciation of his sacrifice.

 

So, if you follow Jesus' example just because you think he was a good person, I don't think that necessarily makes you a Christian.  As Rosie mentioned, maybe deist, or some other label?

 

FYI, non-Trinitarian here, so obviously I would not include that as a required belief.  

[MotherGoose]

True, I think saying the Catholic Church, and Orthodox Church, trace back to the first Christians is a better way to say it. I'm guessing that is what she meant.

Yes, that's what I meant. I didn't even think about Orthodox, honestly, when posting anything. Orthodox are even rarer than Catholics in the South. :)

[Janeway]

No church in existence today can claim to be the original church any more than the next. The claim of the original church comes from the idea that one leader came after another and so on. But every single person on this planet came from someone before them and statistically, we are even all likely biological descendants of Mary and Noah and whatever. So I do not buy in to any notion of "original church." There were 12 apolstles, and not less, sent out to spread the word of Christ. And unless a church is running exactly how it was before Christ left this planet, then it is not "the original church,"

[MaeFlowers]

I don't really understand your argument. Before Christ died, there was no Christian church. It was mostly groups of Jewish followers who mostly attended synagogues. When they were pushed out/left the synagogues, they mostly held meetings in private buildings & spaces. As Christianity spread, different interpretations spread, as well. Leaders gathered to create a consensus on what it meant to be a Christian. From this, the church was formed. That church was the catholic church.

Of course the above is an incredibly simplified version of what happened. Saying the Catholic Church was the original church means that it was the earliest church. That's all.