Help me put a finger on this

[bullseye]

Something is a little…off…with my daughter. I think. I’m trying to pinpoint exactly what it is. 

 

Background: She’s going on four, a bright child, hit all her milestones early, seems especially good at pattern recognition and seeing the big picture. For example, at 15 months she would sing, “An animal, an animal, EIEIO!†As in “I get the pattern, Mama, can we just be done with it instead of naming them all?†We knew then she was not going to be a detail person. She’s been totally scatterbrained from the beginning.

 

Here’s the odd thing: If I ask my kids what kind of cereal they want, both of my boys will name their favorite. My daughter will insist on going to the pantry and looking. Same with juice, same with anything. If I ask her to just name the kind she wants, half the time she says the wrong thing and then has a meltdown when I bring it. 

 

She DOES know what things are called. If I supply the name - “where is x?†- she does just fine. But it seems like she has problems retrieving the word she wants sometimes. She’ll call it something similar, something in the same category but not quite right. The other day she caught a cricket and called it a ladybug. I stopped her - that’s not a ladybug; what is it really? She thought for a second and got it right. But for the most part, she doesn’t concern herself with the thinking part unless I stop her and make her think; she just says something close and that’s good enough for her. 

 

Anyone know what this is? Should I be concerned? Or is it just her personality, thinking in broad categories and not concerning herself with the particulars? 

[2_girls_mommy]

Interesting, but I am no help. I would keep searching for similarities in things that you read. I in my research for things I deal with in teaching my kids have not come across this particular type of thing in anything.

[Mama2BugNBear]

Limit her choices to "a" and "b"... May simplify the process🤔

[Jean in Newcastle]

She's only four.  I wouldn't be concerned.  She does sound like she might be a visual-spatial learner. 

[Plink]

There are several things that can lead to word retrieval difficulties: ADHD, SLI, Brain injuries, etc.

 

However, at the age of 4 I wouldn't worry too much.  Just play a bunch of word retrieval games, stay patient when she is speaking, and mention it to your pediatrician the next time you are in the office.   

[Guest]

Too many choices can paralyze a kid at that age, even if they are verbal they may just find 'seeing' the best option on a shelf easier than picturing it in their head and naming it, which is a more complicated mental process than seek and find.

 

I would worry more if she was eight, or not assigning nouns and pronouns to objects at all.

[Tiramisu]

You know, it might very well be in the range of normal. But you've got two other kids and a mommy gut. Therefore, I would try to find a recommended place for a speech evaluation. You might need a referral from your pediatrician, but they should advise you on what you needed to do. My overall sense is not to wait with speech issues because there are some issues where early intervention can be helpful. Also, problems with word retrieval can can cause frustration and ensuing behavior problems. So I recommended just checking it out for your peace of mind.

 

I did that with one kid with an articulation problem and treated therapist was able to tell me it was normal and when it should resolve. And that was worth it to me.

 

ETA: re-reading little details in your post lead me to believe it's frustrating her and causing meltdowns. All reasons not to wait for her sake. FWIW, DD enjoyed her speech eval.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Tiramisu

[fairfarmhand]

Normal for even a very bright 4 year old.

 

 

[almondbutterandjelly]

Yeah, she sounds totally visual-spatial.  You might also google "right brain learner."

 

Interestingly, my big-picture-thinker/vsl apparently stores opposites next to each other in her brain, because sometimes (especially but not exclusively with prepositions ), she will say the opposite of what she means.  She has done this her whole life.

 

I suspect ladybug and cricket are stored next to each other in your dd's brain :) but she doesn't care so much because she's a big picture thinker and they are both bugs.

 

 

[bullseye]

You know, it might very well be in the range of normal. But you've got two other kids and a mommy gut. Therefore, I would try to find a recommended place for a speech evaluation. You might need a referral from your pediatrician, but they should advise you on what you needed to do. My overall sense is not to wait with speech issues because there are some issues where early intervention can be helpful. Also, problems with word retrieval can can cause frustration and ensuing behavior problems. So I recommended just checking it out for your peace of mind.

 

Yeah, it's a red flag to me partially because her brother who is two years younger has no problem whatsoever with the same skills. I know all kids are different, and I realize it may be within the range of normal development, but for my kids, they've all three been pretty uniformly advanced, so this stands out. 

[bullseye]

Interestingly, my big-picture-thinker/vsl apparently stores opposites next to each other in her brain, because sometimes (especially but not exclusively with prepositions), she will say the opposite of what she means.  She has done this her whole life.

 

I suspect ladybug and cricket are stored next to each other in your dd's brain :) but she doesn't care so much because she's a big picture thinker and they are both bugs.

 

That makes sense, thank you. We occasionally get opposite confusion, less often as she's gotten older. But mostly it's right category/wrong word. And yeah, it doesn't seem to bother her at all. She's more annoyed that I stopped to correct her. Unless I bring her the wrong kind of juice; then it's the end of the world. 

[freesia]

It could be normal.  My dd at 7 will call an outlet an inplit and the lawn mower a mow lawner.  Her sister at 5 would substitute words like try to think of what to call a sieve and call it a "sister".  Both my daughters, and I, think in pictures. Now, full disclosure, there is a ton of dyslexia in my family of origin, and their brother is mildly dyslexic.  Both girls were "later" readers and not great spellers. So, it could be a dyslexia thing, too. B/c dyslexia is a language retrieval issue.

 

Just keep working with her and be aware if you see other language issues popping up (or areas where she starts to fall behind peers).  But it's not something I would worry about--just keep an eye on (kind of like a skinned knee you keep an eye on in case it gets infected, but don't spend time worrying about).

[bullseye]

It could be normal.  My dd at 7 will call an outlet an inplit and the lawn mower a mow lawner.  Her sister at 5 would substitute words like try to think of what to call a sieve and call it a "sister".  Both my daughters, and I, think in pictures. Now, full disclosure, there is a ton of dyslexia in my family of origin, and their brother is mildly dyslexic.  Both girls were "later" readers and not great spellers. So, it could be a dyslexia thing, too. B/c dyslexia is a language retrieval issue.

 

Just keep working with her and be aware if you see other language issues popping up (or areas where she starts to fall behind peers).  But it's not something I would worry about--just keep an eye on (kind of like a skinned knee you keep an eye on in case it gets infected, but don't spend time worrying about).

 

I love the words kids invent. Usually they're perfectly descriptive. DD has invented her share of terminology, and to be honest I rarely correct it because I think it's cute. No dyslexia here, though. And she is definitely ahead of her peers in language, just not in this one area. 

[HomeAgain]

Going on four....so she's 3. 

 

 

It is very much in the range of normal for a 3, almost 4yo.  Goodness, they're just about notorious for such things, asking for one thing and wanting something different.  It's part of the language acquisition process.  If the problems don't disappear when she's at the age of reading, I might be more concerned.  I have a 3yo that comes to my house.  I get called "other mama" because that's easier than remembering my name, he forgets words for things....we just roll with it.  It'll go away as he gets older and matures.

[Aurelia]

My DD did that (and still does to some degree). She turned out to be dyslexic. That may not be the case for your daughter, but it's something to keep in the back of your mind. Dyslexics are fantastic at getting the gist of things, but not so much the details, and as others have stated, some difficulty with word retrieval. 

[Sahamamama2]

 

Something is a little…off…with my daughter. I think. I’m trying to pinpoint exactly what it is. 

 

Background: She’s going on four, a bright child, hit all her milestones early, seems especially good at pattern recognition and seeing the big picture. For example, at 15 months she would sing, “An animal, an animal, EIEIO!†As in “I get the pattern, Mama, can we just be done with it instead of naming them all?†We knew then she was not going to be a detail person. She’s been totally scatterbrained from the beginning.

 

Here’s the odd thing: If I ask my kids what kind of cereal they want, both of my boys will name their favorite. My daughter will insist on going to the pantry and looking. Same with juice, same with anything. If I ask her to just name the kind she wants, half the time she says the wrong thing and then has a meltdown when I bring it. 

 

She DOES know what things are called. If I supply the name - “where is x?†- she does just fine. But it seems like she has problems retrieving the word she wants sometimes. She’ll call it something similar, something in the same category but not quite right. The other day she caught a cricket and called it a ladybug. I stopped her - that’s not a ladybug; what is it really? She thought for a second and got it right. But for the most part, she doesn’t concern herself with the thinking part unless I stop her and make her think; she just says something close and that’s good enough for her. 

 

Anyone know what this is? Should I be concerned? Or is it just her personality, thinking in broad categories and not concerning herself with the particulars? 

 

 

I have known a few people who seemed to communicate like this, and they will often say something like, "Put the thing on the thing." <---- (my dad, so I grew up with this) :confused1:  Most of the time, clear communication requires us to be more specific. It does take thought and a certain kind of "work" to come up with, "Put the keys on the hook" or "Put the plate on the table" than it does to throw out, "Put the thing on the thing."

 

I'm sure you will hear "she's only four," and that is true, but I also think that this need for clarity and specifc word choices is something even a four year old can begin to learn. One of my twins was a bit like this at your daughter's age. I'll tell you what I think helped -- Wordly Wise. She and her twin were in Pre-K at the time, and my oldest was in 1st grade, so that year we did the 1st grade level for Wordly Wise. Looking back, I wish we had done the Kindergarten level that year, and then the 1st grade level the following year. I say that, only because we enjoyed it SO MUCH, and the girls all gained so much confidence in their expressive language, that I regret not doing both levels. But after we did the 1st grade level, it felt like it would be going backwards to do Level K.

 

Anyway... when my twins were about 18 months old, we watched Signing Time DVDs from the library. This seemed to reduce a frustration in one of my twins (Squishy), by giving her a sign to go with a word. Funny thing was, she already knew the words, but seemed frustrated with using them. With a sign to go along, however, she was calm and confident.

 

A few years later, when we started World Wise 1, I saw a similar transformation happen. It was as if, by doing the Wordly Wise, Squishy realized that every word can be defined. This was a revelation to her. She started asking for definitions of words all the time. She started taking her time, choosing her words very particularly, really putting obvious thought into her communication.

 

Perhaps a workbook, in itself, is not the answer. I don't think it was the workbook of Wordly Wise that made a difference for my children. I think it was the focus on the meanings of words that doing Wordly Wise fostered in us. It created a comfort zone for talking openly about language and words and their meanings. It established a habit of choosing words thoughtfully. It gave my children permission to ask for words to be defined at their own level of understanding.

 

So, I recommend that you consider doing Wordly Wise K with her, if possible. And, I agree, she's four (so very young), but it's also good that you are helping her take the time to think through and use the words she does, in fact, actually know. HTH.

Edited October 1, 2016 by Sahamamama2

[Renai]

 

Something is a little…off…with my daughter. I think. I’m trying to pinpoint exactly what it is. 

 

Background: She’s going on four, a bright child, hit all her milestones early, seems especially good at pattern recognition and seeing the big picture. For example, at 15 months she would sing, “An animal, an animal, EIEIO!†As in “I get the pattern, Mama, can we just be done with it instead of naming them all?†We knew then she was not going to be a detail person. She’s been totally scatterbrained from the beginning.

 

Here’s the odd thing: If I ask my kids what kind of cereal they want, both of my boys will name their favorite. My daughter will insist on going to the pantry and looking. Same with juice, same with anything. If I ask her to just name the kind she wants, half the time she says the wrong thing and then has a meltdown when I bring it. 

 

She DOES know what things are called. If I supply the name - “where is x?†- she does just fine. But it seems like she has problems retrieving the word she wants sometimes. She’ll call it something similar, something in the same category but not quite right. The other day she caught a cricket and called it a ladybug. I stopped her - that’s not a ladybug; what is it really? She thought for a second and got it right. But for the most part, she doesn’t concern herself with the thinking part unless I stop her and make her think; she just says something close and that’s good enough for her. 

 

Anyone know what this is? Should I be concerned? Or is it just her personality, thinking in broad categories and not concerning herself with the particulars? 

 

 

This reminds me of a student I had in one of my prek classes, but he was closer to 5, not going on 4. He had trouble retrieving the language even when he was looking at the object though. He would describe the object rather than name it, many times. Does that sound similar to any extent? I don't remember the name the speech therapist gave it; I'd have to search for it.

[Reefgazer]

My thoughts exactly.  My DS *needs* to see what's in the refrigerator, even if I tell him.  Stands there with the door open looking at exactly what I told him was there.

She's only four.  I wouldn't be concerned.  She does sound like she might be a visual-spatial learner. 

 

[PeterPan]

There is testing on word retrieval that an SLP or neuropsych can do.  My dd had the testing at age 12 as part of her psych eval for ADHD.  Interestingly, her scores were on par with the low word retrieval you'd expect with dyslexia or apraxia, but she has neither.  My son has both and had some of what you're describing.  He has had extensive speech therapy for years.  There's actually quite a bit you can do for word retrieval, none of it hard, so at this point I wouldn't just ignore.  It's definitely in the realm of noticeable and possibly a discrepancy.  I'm googling and there is a test they can do as early as 4 years 6 months, so she's probably old enough.

 

Word Finding Assessment

 

One of the simplest things you can do is start using picture encyclopedias with her to organize vocabulary in her brain.  What you're talking about is called "lexicon" in speech therapy lingo.  So they know the words, but it's not organized in their brains in a way that allows them to retrieve it.  So you want to promote organization.  I'm being lazy and not getting the title, but there's a book I've recommended in the past.  Here's a thread where we discussed word retrieval.  Writing for big word retrieval issues? - The Learning Challenges Board - The Well-Trained Mind Community

 

The book has a theme over the two page spread and then all the things for that theme.  So like it might be circus, and then it has pictures of all the things in a circus.  You're improving lexicon, brain organization, connecting words with the right file folder so they can retrieve.

 

She's just about old enough for the therapy book I link in that thread.  Really though, just start with games and picture books.  Name all the things in your room.  Name all the bugs you know.  Read a bird book together, reading all the names of the birds in your state.  We have little tri-fold laminated things with common bugs, that kind of thing, and we used to go through those reading them.  Anything to organize words.  

 

If it's not organized, then it could be stored really funky.  Like maybe ladybug is over with Eric Carle and snake is with zoo and nothing connects, kwim?  So listing games can be really helpful, because it helps her connect vocabulary.  

 

My dd's word retrieval is slow, but her overall processing speed is slow, like WAY slow for IQ.  You can also have that going on.  Have you had any other indication of things going on?  How is she with rhyming and pre-reading skills?  Any speech delays?

[PeterPan]

Melissa Forney's Picture Speller for Young Writers

[Sahamamama2]

Elizabeth, would something like this also help?

 

http://www.usborne.com/catalogue/book/1~l~le~7296/first-thousand-words-in-english.aspx

[bullseye]

I'm back after a hectic couple of weeks. Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to everyone's thoughts and suggestions. I really appreciate the advice. 

 

If the problems don't disappear when she's at the age of reading, I might be more concerned.  

 

She's reading at about a second grade level. That's why it seems off to me...it may be normal for age three, but most of her language abilities are beyond what you'd expect for her age. 

 

I have known a few people who seemed to communicate like this, and they will often say something like, "Put the thing on the thing." <---- (my dad, so I grew up with this) :confused1:  Most of the time, clear communication requires us to be more specific. It does take thought and a certain kind of "work" to come up with, "Put the keys on the hook" or "Put the plate on the table" than it does to throw out, "Put the thing on the thing."

 

I'm sure you will hear "she's only four," and that is true, but I also think that this need for clarity and specifc word choices is something even a four year old can begin to learn. 

 

...It was as if, by doing the Wordly Wise, Squishy realized that every word can be defined. This was a revelation to her. She started asking for definitions of words all the time. She started taking her time, choosing her words very particularly, really putting obvious thought into her communication.

 

I think it was the focus on the meanings of words that doing Wordly Wise fostered in us. It created a comfort zone for talking openly about language and words and their meanings. It established a habit of choosing words thoughtfully. It gave my children permission to ask for words to be defined at their own level of understanding.

 

This is great advice. Thank you. My older son has always done this naturally - will stop a conversation multiple times to ask the meaning of a word. My daughter doesn't seem to care about precision as long as I get the gist of what she's saying. Definitely something to work on!

 

This reminds me of a student I had in one of my prek classes, but he was closer to 5, not going on 4. He had trouble retrieving the language even when he was looking at the object though. He would describe the object rather than name it, many times. Does that sound similar to any extent? I don't remember the name the speech therapist gave it; I'd have to search for it.

 

She doesn't usually describe what she wants; she just says the closest word that kind of makes sense and expects me to figure out what she means. 

 

One of the simplest things you can do is start using picture encyclopedias with her to organize vocabulary in her brain.  What you're talking about is called "lexicon" in speech therapy lingo.  So they know the words, but it's not organized in their brains in a way that allows them to retrieve it.  So you want to promote organization.  I'm being lazy and not getting the title, but there's a book I've recommended in the past.  Here's a thread where we discussed word retrieval.  Writing for big word retrieval issues? - The Learning Challenges Board - The Well-Trained Mind Community

 

The book has a theme over the two page spread and then all the things for that theme.  So like it might be circus, and then it has pictures of all the things in a circus.  You're improving lexicon, brain organization, connecting words with the right file folder so they can retrieve.

 

Name all the things in your room.  Name all the bugs you know.  Read a bird book together, reading all the names of the birds in your state.  Anything to organize words.  

 

If it's not organized, then it could be stored really funky.  Like maybe ladybug is over with Eric Carle and snake is with zoo and nothing connects, kwim?  So listing games can be really helpful, because it helps her connect vocabulary.  

 

My dd's word retrieval is slow, but her overall processing speed is slow, like WAY slow for IQ.  You can also have that going on.  Have you had any other indication of things going on?  How is she with rhyming and pre-reading skills?  Any speech delays?

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions. I think improving organization is the way to go, along with helping her be more mindful of word choice. 

 

And no, no other indication of a problem. She was an early speaker, loved rhyming and word games, and is now an early reader. 

[Sahamamama2]

She doesn't usually describe what she wants; she just says the closest word that kind of makes sense and expects me to figure out what she means.

 

What is her usual response if your guess is wrong? I empathize with you, but I don't really know what the solution might be. One of mine is a bit like this, even at 9 (going on 10). She doesn't say the closest word, though. Instead, she sort of begins a thought that she then can't seem to complete, and looks at me as if I can help her express her unexpressed thought. She gets frustrated when we all kind of just.... wait. What else can we do? I can't read her mind, and the part of her thought that she did say is usually not enough to guess the rest by. It's hard.

 

The odd thing (to me) is, she is only this way orally. She has no problem at all expressing lovely, complete, and well-organized thoughts in writing.

 

Honestly, Bullseye, I don't know what to do. I'm glad you started this thread.