When the rules are changed mid-game

[lexi]

Ok, this is part JAWM and part WWYD........

 

My daughters are part of a scouting organization. One is 5th grade one is 2nd grade. In the past years our troop had a rule that the girls had to be 2nd grade or above to go on a campout without a parent present. Older daughter has gone campaign with troop. Younger daughter obviously has not gone yet. 

 

The first troop wide campout of this new troop year is in a few weeks. I signed them both up 3 weeks ago and bought camping gear for younger daughter. I talked with our troop leader about younger dd going and about her food allergies and we had a food plan worked out. I contacted the camping coordinator about allergies so we could all be on the same page as far as what to serve during the campout. 

 

I get an email last night from the new camping coordinator (it is one of the dads and it's his first year in charge of organizing campouts) saying that my younger dd could not go. After re-reading the guidelines in the literature provided by the organization, he found a progression chart that showed the younger girls should do hikes, day camps, or cabin camping for one night. In his email he said he found that the girls are not supposed to do a two-night campout unless a parent is present.

 

So, now the rules are changed and I'm told that one of us has to go. I have a new baby and am absolutely not camping with her. My hubby had other plans for the weekend and would rather not go either. Also, we would have to buy our own tent and all of our own camping gear because as an adult we can't share a tent with all the kids. I own ZERO camping gear except for the sleeping bags and things I purchased for my daughters (our troop provides large tents for the girls to share). So for one of us to go camping, I would be purchasing a lot of gear. 

 

I contacted our troop director and reminded her of our conversation about my daughter attending and asked why I got an email from the camping coordinator saying that she cannot go. She said that the organization had a chart showing the ideal progression for outdoor activities and that girls under 3rd grade should not go tent camping and should not camp out for more than two nights. She also told me that the camping coordinator had changed his mind about allowing the younger girls after coordinating and attending a campout for the older girls. She said she tried to talk him in to allowing the younger girls to go as long as a parent was present. 

 

It sounds like a two-fold issue : they are saying that the organization does not allow 3rd graders or below to camp without a parent (and that they were accidentally and unknowingly breaking the rules in past years) 

and that the camping coordinator has changed his mind and doesn't want younger girls to attend anyway, 

 

I've already told my daughter she's going, signed her up, and bought her the gear. I cannot go camping with the baby. My hubby cannot go without a change of our plans and a significant expense to purchase a lot of camping gear for himself. 

 

I am so, so, so upset! My daughter has been looking forward to being old enough (2nd grade) to be able to go camping with her sister! 

 

So, I have a few thoughts.....

1 - I'm going to call the organization and get clarification on this camping progression. Is it just a set of guidelines? Or is it a hard and fast rule?

2 - I'm going to talk to troop coordinator about allowing the younger girls to go on this campout (just like they have allowed them in the past years) since they had already set the signup parameters months ago. Then after this campout they can change the rules going forward.

 

Depending on how those conversations go, I'll have to make decisions. 

I guess my options are to send my hubby and purchase a crapload of camping gear,

Drive my younger daughter up for the day only and not allow her to spend the night (it's a two-hour round trip for me and a waste of all the money I spent on her camping gear), 

or not allow my daughter to go (or maybe neither daughter to go). 

 

Thoughts? I wouldn't have been so upset if it wasn't something my troop had been doing for years and if they hadn't changed the rules just a few weeks before a campout (when everyone had committed to going and purchased gear, etc). And I've already told my daughter she was going and she is counting on going! And she's been waiting to be old enough to do this. Now they're saying she can't camp this year or even next year! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Only thing I can think to try is to see if another parent is going who might be willing to be her guardian during that time.

 

 

[lexi]

Only thing I can think to try is to see if another parent is going who might be willing to be her guardian during that time.

 

 

That's a great idea. I'll look into that as well.

 

I knew you ladies would have some new perspective for me! I'm so mad that I'm having a hard time thinking of solutions. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I do agree it is lousy they have changed their mind so late in the game.  And their reasoning seems quite lame.  Like don't blame us, blame the rules.  It is in the rules.  Were they looking for a loophole?  One has to wonder.  And why didn't they know the rules BEFOREHAND!

 

 

[zoobie]

We had something similar happen with Girl Scouts. I just found the gear in a closet and got pissed all over again. We weren't able to find a solution. I hope you do. :grouphug:

[lexi]

We had something similar happen with Girl Scouts. I just found the gear in a closet and got pissed all over again. We weren't able to find a solution. I hope you do. :grouphug:

Oh no! I'm so sorry you had to go through this too. It's so frustrating and it's so sad for the girls. Plus, wasting money on camping gear is maddening!

[ktgrok]

If it's AHG, we were told 2nd and up could go. Nothing about a parent needing to go. Most are not going. now, we did get cabins I think (my daughter is 1st, so not going) but still. 

 

Yeah, I'd be annoyed. 

[catz]

Situations like this are difficult. The thing is all these people are working as volunteers and if leadership turned over recently its totally possible old leadership was in the wrong. I have led groups like this and personally wouldn't want to be in charge of a group of 7 and 8 year olds for 2 nights in tents I didn't know well. I hope you find a workable solution. I just know sometimes it's hard being that new volunteer.

[Rebel Yell]

Are there any other girls in your troop affected by this?

 

Also agreeing with the idea to see if another parent can be her chaperone for the trip.

[AngieC]

Do you think they found this rule in response to your daughter's food allergies or is it just a coincidence?  If it's the former, I would be cautious about sending my child to spend the weekend with someone who didn't want her there.  Otherwise, I would look into the official rules of the organization.

 

 

What about trying to find a compromise and have your husband go for just one night of the camp out?  Try borrowing a tent and sleeping bag from a friend so you don't have to purchase everything for one night.

 

[TheReader]

That is frustrating!

 

One other thing to check into, if you want, is ask if you can borrow a tent and gear for your husband, of he decides to go. Or see if another dad is going who he would be comfortable "rooming" with, so all he would need is a sleeping bag. Surely someone in the group has extras they can loan out, if that is the route you want to take. (And I totally understand if not).

[City Mouse]

I know that your daughter is disappointed, and as a mom that makes you sad for her, (apparently my comment came across much ,ore harsh than I intended, so I am removing it)

 

You said there is a new camping coordinators. It is quite possible that he recently took training for the organization at is at least reading the written information provided by the organization, and is updating how this have been done. One of the things I hate most about certain organizations is when I ask "why" I get told "that is how we always do it". Things change, the people in charge change. They can and should change procedures when needed.

 

Beginning of second grade is a bit early to go weekend camping without a parent. Especially for kids who don't go camping much. At that age, the kids aren't independent, and the adults are the ones have to set up the tent, do most of the cooking, take care of homesickness, break down etc. if I was in charge, I would not want to take that on either. Maybe the new person realizes that the previous way of doing things was not very good.

 

Honestly, once they have already said the they don't want 2nd graders to attend without a patent, I don't think I would bother calling the higher ups to force the issue. Evenif someone higher up over rules them and tells them that they must let 2nd graders attend without a parent (which I seriously doubt would happen), I would not want to send my kid away with people who have already said that they don't want to be responsible for her.

 

You could either return the camping equipment to the store, or just save it until she can go.

Edited September 29, 2016 by City Mouse

[Reefgazer]

See if they will allow her to go for one night, with one of you picking her up from the campsite early.

[ktgrok]

I think the issue is, the rules have always understood to be 2nd grade can go. Has that really changed, or are the new camp coordinators confused. Like I said, our troop is 2nd grade and up goes. We did get cabins, but we didn't know for sure we would, so if it had been tents they still were allowed to go. 

[zoobie]

Borrowing gear is a good idea. If you have a church or neighborhood group you can email, I bet you get fixed up quickly!

 

Will they have time to do background checks on your DH? They were required for Girl Scouts and one of the reasons we were totally screwed by their last minute nonsense. Plus I was pregnant with a crazy, very young toddler.

[craftymama]

I agree with others who have said the change in leadership may mean the new person is following rules the old leadership was willing to bend.  You can't fault a volunteer leader for following the rules he/she is required to follow even if the old leadership didn't follow them.  Not everyone chooses to dot the "i"s and cross the "t"s, but the ones who do should not be faulted for doing so.  

 

If your girls are going to continue with the program then you haven't wasted money on camping gear.  You've simply purchased it really far in advance.  And if your girls are going to continue there is a chance you or your husband may need to fill in as additional adults in the future so I'm not sure buying the gear for him is a total waste either.  Does your troop have extra tents to loan out?  Do any of your friends have tents you could borrow?  

 

 

[lexi]

I think the issue is, the rules have always understood to be 2nd grade can go. Has that really changed, or are the new camp coordinators confused. Like I said, our troop is 2nd grade and up goes. We did get cabins, but we didn't know for sure we would, so if it had been tents they still were allowed to go. 

 

 

This is my issue. Thanks for articulating. I'm still working on a solution. And now I'm getting a massive migraine from being up half the night stressing over it. 

[lexi]

And for the record I never said the rules were changed to spite me. Or that it was somehow an attack on me.

 

This rule affects all the girls who are 3rd grade and below. I'm sad for all of them. It affects my daughter and any other girl 3rd grade or below that wants to go. It is terribly upsetting for all of them. And it's really not fair to them since they've been waiting until 2nd grade to go camping. And suddenly they are told they have to be in 4th grade to camp (while in all previous years 2nd grade and older could camp). It's really not fun for them to hear that.

 

But I never alsaid I was being personally attacked or I felt like someone was retaliating against me. I'm mad that the rules changed mid year and in the middle of planning for a campout. I'm mad that it was last minute after I've bought gear and my daughter had planned to go.

 

My child is having to suffer for someone else's mistake. And honestly, that really sucks. And when you're 7 it's hard to understand that the adults changed the rules on you. When you're 7 you do take that a little personally. But I never said I thought they were trying to spite me. It's just a horrible last minute change that is very disappointing. And expensive.

[SKL]

I'm sorry this happened.  I have had impossible situations imposed on us also with scouts.  While I agree with trying to see if there is a way around it, I would tell your daughter right now that you just heard the rules say she can't go.  (Unless your dh might be willing after all.)

 

It doesn't cost much to buy a pup tent though.  So IMO it depends on how strongly your husband feels about not going.

 

Is it close enough that he could go sleep there but leave during the day to do his planned activity?  Our first campout coincided with a soccer game (and we would have forfeited if we didn't play), so we drove back for the soccer game and returned later.

 

Another thing - last June, my kids were finally old enough to camp without me.  BUT I discovered that I was the only parent not attending with such "young" kids (they are 9), and many other parents were surprised - like dismayed surprised.  One of the moms offered to watch over my kids for the weekend, which I though unnecessary but whatever.  So this weekend, though I technically don't have to, I will be sleeping in a pup tent (probably freezing).

[Miss Peregrine]

Would you be able to drive younger dd up for the day?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think my solution that I would see as obvious would be to schedule a family camping trip for the next weekend, and invite the families of the other children who are now unable to go with their group. I'd pick a place with lots of activities and adventures.

 

I would not allow my child to dwell on this, or to reinforce that I think she is "suffering." I wouldn't make it worse by losing sleep and staying upset for days, because what does that model? We have to be more resilient than that, and create our own solutions when others disappoint us, if we can.

[ScoutTN]

As far as I know, the recommendations about camping from AHG nationals are just that. Not a requirement. Every troop in our area (6 or so in our city and 25+ in our region) takes ALL ages of girls tent camping twice a year.

 

All our troop camp outs are family camping and we do require a parent to be there. We have had kids come with an aunt, uncle or grandparent, with written permission from parents.

 

Our Pioneers and Patriots camp and do high adventure with only leaders.

 

Seems like they should grandfather your Dd in because the change was last minute and poorly communicated. I bet you are not the only family caught by surprise.

 

In our troop, this change would require a Board vote and not be left to a single leader's opinion. We would have this clearly written and communicated far in advance.

 

I was at the AHG national convention last year and heard from literally hindreds of other leaders, board members and troop coordinators. NONE of them restrict camping to Explorers and up! I saw many photos and heard many stories about troop camp outs that included girls younger than 4th grade.

 

The camping badge cannot be earned til Explorer, but camping is fun and safe for all the girls. We had almost 100 Tenderhearts and quite a few Pathfinders at our regoinal Camporee last spring!

Edited September 29, 2016 by ScoutTN

[lexi]

So far I've said nothing to my child as I'm trying to come up with a solution.

 

I think I will have the coordinator explain to my child the change instead of me. Then she can ask questions and get answers. I don't think I should have to be the one to tell her the news but rather be there with her when she hears the news.

 

I think if anything we are going to plan a family vacation and do something on our own. Or at least a day trip. I don't want to stress of planning something with these people right now. And I don't want to be responsible for making reservations and coordinating.

 

I'm not going to dwell on it for days. But I am sad and wanted to figure out any alternative. When I got the email last night it was very unexpected and threw me for a loop. It was very out of the blue when the previous guidelines have been followed for more than ten years by this troop. So I did lose sleep last night because at 10 pm I read the email and it came as a shock to me.

 

I started the thread to ask for solutions because I knew you ladies would have good ideas. I'm not letting a camping trip ruin my life. It's sad and it sucks but I'm trying to figure out what to do.

 

So I'm going to write down all the suggestions everyone has given and talk them over with my husband and see what would be best for our family. I just wanted to see if anyone had other solutions than the ones I proposed in the original thread.

 

And one thing that you may not realize or understand is that this kiddo has food allergies. She is often excluded intentionally or unintentionally from many activities. She deals with disappointment on a daily basis. We've had to leave churches over their refusal to stop serving chocolate donuts or peanut butter snacks in her Sunday school classroom. Wow! She's had more than her fair share of discrimination. And this was one event where the leader had already worked out safe foods with me. So that's why this comes as a huge blow to our family.

 

So please don't assume I'm not modeling resiliency for my kid. This trip was about being included in something despite her disability. And now she's excluded for something else. It is very hard for her. But I'm proud of the strong and compssionate person that she's becoming.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

So far I've said nothing to my child as I'm trying to come up with a solution.

 

...

 

So please don't assume I'm not modeling resiliency for my kid. This trip was about being included in something despite her disability. And now she's excluded for something else. It is very hard for her. But I'm proud of the strong and compssionate person that she's becoming.

 

I'm sorry, I definitely misunderstood that you weren't saying these things in your child's hearing. I apologize.

 

The food issue -- BTDT with celiac disease and medically required diets that are even stricter (but not allergies, which I know can be SO much worse, esp. peanut). It is so hard that something like FOOD can be more important to people than children's ability to participate. I hope that will change someday.

[lexi]

No. to be clear, I've said nothing to my child and I've said nothing to anyone actually. I got the email and was very surprised so I've decided to try to think of sulotions today before I talk with troop leaders. I also wanted to give myself time to pull myself together and be less upset before I spoke to them.

 

My dd is actually with grandparents today as they came from out of state to visit us. So I'm using my time to clean the house, catch up on laundry, and figure out what I should do.

 

Also, I know that they are volunteers and that somewhere someone got confused and made a mistake. So I'm not blaming people and I don't want to be rude to them. I do want to have some solutions in mind before I speak to them though. (And I'm also one of the volunteers, as I help lead one of the age groups. So I'm very aware that we're all just volunteers trying to do the best we can).

 

I posted here to give me some perspective before I spoke to anyone. I didn't want to be rash. Because I did cry and I knew I wasn't thinking too clearly at that particular moment. So I stepped back to think and calm down.

 

And yes. It's very disheartening when people care more about food than people being able to participate. It is very hurtful. So I deal with that with my daughter on a regular basis. It's sad. Sometimes people are very rude about it and act like she's an inconvenience. Not fun. It's hard to watch your child hurting. I would give anything to find a cure or help her.

[MarinesWife]

At that age the guideline is family camping only. We do allow girls to attend with another family however they still need separate tents.

[Soror]

At that age the guideline is family camping only. We do allow girls to attend with another family however they still need separate tents.

I've been in leadership of AHG for 5 years, this is my understanding of the rules, I just pulled out the unit leader handbook to check. For Pathfinder and Tenderhearts it just lists lock-ins. For our trips we do family camping for those under Explorer age (3rd grade and lower). We actually have a family camp-out this weekend for all ages due to paperwork timing and headquarters rules- we had expected to let Explorer & up not need a parent but we've not got everyone's forms in time(we just started a few wks ago), the thing is if an accident were to occur and we are not covered under their insurance then it would be a big mess so we don't push, besides the fact that taking 2nd graders without parents seems too early for me. 

 

I've also been in the place to follow up from a leader that didn't really follow the rules, it makes it seem like the rules are changing when really that isn't the case at all. 

 

Fwiw I have camped w/ a baby, we managed ok. When we started Scouts I had a 1.5 yr old, then I went all the way through pregnancy with my youngest and camped at 38 wks pregnant with her and again when she was less than 6 months old. 

 

Our Troop also has supplies for parents to borrow, so that might be an option to consider, however, if you plan to keep with scouting they are only going to camp more the older they get. 

 

We are Celiac here and being on the leadership end is a real help because I can help guide the food to be safe for us, or at least have safe options. All our meals this weekend have GF/DF options. Luckily in our case everyone has always been happy to accommodate, generally, they just don't quite know what to do. If you are already in leadership you might want to think about trying to get in the role to help w/ food planning so you can help them accommodate her better, it can be quite intimidating(rightfully so) when you know a mistake can kill a child.

[Alessandra]

I'm sorry for what you are going through. Not sure what scouting organization you are in, but for comparison:

 

In my GS Council, "Travel camping is not recommended for Daisy and Brownie Scouts." That's K-3, no travel camping. I took Camping leader training. In GS, there are layers of approval -- for example, a site not on the local GS list has to post proof of a million dollar liability policy, leaders have to have first aid/CPR as well as other training, criminal nap check, etc. Younger scouts can go to GS resident camps.

 

For Cub Scouts, camping is family camping. A parent/guardian goes with the child and shares the tent.

 

Personally, as a leader, I would not want to be in charge of younger scouts. Normal fears, like being scared of the dark, can be magnified in a tent. Think of a sudden thunderstorm or other bad weather. Or of a kid who has not packed the right clothes. Or who gets sick/injured. There was a thread here earlier this summer about a mother who sent her kids to an AHG camp -- the girl had a horrible time, forced to drink water until she hot sick, iirc. It may not be a bad thing to bow out, imho.

 

As for equipment, Walmart has some incredibly cheap gear. Their sleeping bags are heavy and bulky, but otherwise serviceable.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Alessandra

[RioSamba]

Well, that's rotten! If you decide to send your husband you can rent tents, etc. from REI.

[FaithManor]

I am sorry. Things like that happen sometimes in 4H. We will advertise an event/actvity and then MSU will decide on a rule change or clarification efective immediatel. No mercy. No grace period. We have to obey or get kicked out of our positions. It is not an easy thing to be a volunteer when something like this comes up.

[Kiara.I]

Ugh.

Wouldn't it be great if people figure out guidelines BEFORE the sign-ups?

 

I would be making the point that:

- guidelines are guidelines, not rules, and it's perfectly possible to assess the situation you have (children planning to go already, a history of doing it this way) rather than the picture in the book.  (after double-checking with the organization that it's not a RULE, just a guideline.)

- other scouting organizations allow tent camping for 5-7 year olds, thank-you-very-much, and it's not a horrific problem.

- this is not an oldest child who doesn't know what she's getting into, this is a younger child who has a sibling going (who can be a support person for her, supposing her age required one) and who therefore has plenty of idea what to expect, thank-you-very-much.

- this same organization has been having this age of children attend yearly in the past and has not found it to be a horrific problem.

 

And I'm a bit curious.  Is this a co-ed organization or a girls-only organization?  If it's girls only, why is a dad in charge of anything within the organization?  If it's co-ed, are the age rulings only for girls or do they apply for boys too (you'd only mentioned girls.)

[MarinesWife]

American Heritage Girls allows for both male and female leaders. we have some wonderful male leaders in our troop.

[jeremmy]

That's really frustrating! It sounds like the 'easiest' idea to still allow her to go is to rent a tent for your husband to use. Much cheaper than buying. Although I don't think you can lose anything by asking if they can bend the rules one last time since you signed up under those bent rules in the first place.

 

 

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