writing woes

[Tawlas]

I have a dd who is nearly 10 years old.  She's just been evaluated as being moderately dyslexic and dysgraphic - no surprises.  Up until now we've done very little in the way of writing, focusing mostly on reading.  I feel that's been fairly effective, but now it's time to start some writing.  I just don't know where to start.  I'm really floundering.  I have a ton of choices.  Are all writing programs fairly equal and I just need to stick with one in order to reap the benefits?

 

She has done the last half of WWE1 and all of WWE2.  The dictations were excruciating for her, even simplified.  I've looked through WWE3 and I just don't think she's up for it.  She does do some dictation in AAS3 and that goes a little better, much less length and in theory, all of the words are made up of rules she's covered. 

 

Last year, we worked through CAP Fable over an entire year.  At half pace, it went quite well.  I think it was enjoyable.  But she still needs to work on basic sentence structure, rather than entire stories at a time.  I do have CAP Narrative 1 though (that's the second book,right?)

 

This year, I've started using IEW A with her, the one where she watches a class on DVD, then completes the assignment.  It's been tough.  I'm with her each step of the way, no leaving her to it.  Sentence combining, rewriting sentences with specific words is hard for her.  She may just need more time to get used to the structure of the lessons and the method so she can settle into the writing itself though, we've only done two lessons so far.    Also, I've been combining her with her brother (whom I also suspect may be mildly dyslexic and dysgraphic?) and I might try doing it with them individually.  They each have frustrations with different things and if I was available to cater to that a little more, it may go easier?

 

She's also currently writing a few sentences in a journal each day - very low pressure, literally my only requirement is 3 sentences a day with capitals and proper punctuation.  Those two things are hard enough for her to remember - never mind adding in a few things to make them interesting and enjoyable to read.

 

Also on hand I have Writing Strands 2 and 3.  And Scholastic's "Best Writing Lessons Ever".  

 

I've looked at Verticy, Step Up To Writing (seems like way too much right now), Just Write (but it may seem to young to her), Writing Skills by Diana Hanbury King as well as Bravewriter.  I feel like Bravewriter is good for kids who don't want to write.  I don't know that she has anything against writing - especially stories and letters - it's just that what she writes is really hard for her to get down and when she does get it on a page it's almost impossible for anyone (including her) to read and understand.  

 

Or should I just let her use a dictation program/app and work on mechanics separately?  And if I do that, besides First Language Lessons (which we're covering extremely lightly this year in order to get to other things), All About Spelling and Evan-Moore Daily Editing (using grade 3 and we do it together at this point, but it's new), how do I do that?

 

If you're still with me, thank you!  Any thoughts on anything I've written down so far?  Or anything else :P ?!

[OneStepAtATime]

Yes, separating your kids might work better.  My kiddos have very similar diagnosis but they have different underlying strengths so they end up struggling in different areas.  I found that combining them frequently did not work.

 

As for the best writing program, that is a really tough call.  Different programs are going to work differently with each individual child.  If you already have IEW SWI-A and your child (or children) is having a hard time, how quickly are you going through the lessons?  Might they need more time and review before heading off onto the next thing?

 

I don't know what you are using for grammar but Fix-It pairs really well with IEW and is VERY short each day (less than :15 4 days a week).  Fix-It has actually been helping my DD with her writing AND her reading.  

 

And what have you been using for reading remediation?  You may need to move to something targeted for dyslexics, especially if your other child may also be dyslexic.  How is she doing with sounding out new words?  Reading out loud?  

[Heathermomster]

The best lecture that I ever watched concerning writing and dyslexics was a webinar given by Dr. Charles Haynes at the Dylexic Advantage website.  You have to join the DA website to view the webinar, but the webinar is excellent.  I would view the webinar and then adapt the curriculum to meet the needs of my student.  Haynes emphasizes starting with writing good sentences and then working up to paragraphs.  He recommends a 1st person sequencing of events paragraph to be mastered after strong sentences.  Haynes discusses word retrieval issues and methods to address that.

 

I would not expect grammar to fall into place until after reading remediation is completed.  Be prepared to teach your students to type.  In the interim, scribe for your kids and/or use speech to text sofware.  I have found Siri on Apple devices to be the easiest, but you can use Android as well.  I use the mind mapping app called Inspiration for the iPad with both of my kids because it helps with organization and story sequencing. 

 

My DS has been typing all of his work since the 6th grade.  He carries a laptop and Echo SmartPen to class.  During the 7th grade, he started homeschooling and worked with an O-G and IEW certified writing instructor.  After two years of IEW, he was able to write paragraphs on his own.  I wish that I had viewed the Haynes webinar prior to the classes because it would have modified my emphasis on certain areas of IEW.

 

Be patient and try not to be discouraged.  I would totally separate the task of writing with the output of ideas.  I have never corrected my son's free writes.  DS loves history so I have found that he practices output by writing paragraphs about historical events and answering questions.  He does best when he writes about topics that he is interested in.  

 

I'm not certain that I answered your question.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

I don't think you have to separate your kids, but I think you have to separate the physical act of writing (which is clearly a double disability for her!) from the thought to word process.  At the level you're working at, scribing and pictures would be totally adequate.  With my ds (about to turn 8, so two years younger), I have him do fable retellings using an IEW book and he DRAWS his thoughts and dictates to me little sentences.

 

WWE was going ill because it's a torture session for low working memory.  If you want to build working memory, there are a lot more pleasant ways.

 

Go graphic, go visual with anything you're doing.  Is there any medium she likes?  Ipad and apps like Inspiration?  Drawing and comics?  Anything?  One of my oh so brilliant side thoughts is to cut up comics to use with my ds to work on sequencing and retelling narratives.  I wouldn't be afraid of doing these things WITH her.  

 

Yes, of the things you listed, the Diana Hanbury King materials are what the tutors around here use.  I got something like that.  I don't know, we have so many issues, so many things to work on, it just doesn't seem to be the most, most important fire.  Can she talk about her day?  Has she had language testing?  It's something we've worked on with my ds.  He was memorizing audiobooks, so we thought he was fine.  So sometimes when he writes it's just parroting his audiobooks.  It's kind of tricky to know.  It's why I'm really not worried about it right now.  But if she's not getting significant language input daily with audiobooks, you might bump that up.  We like the free e-reader from BARD/NLS and the Kindle Fire.  Both are really terrific.

[Tawlas]

Yes, separating your kids might work better.  My kiddos have very similar diagnosis but they have different underlying strengths so they end up struggling in different areas.  I found that combining them frequently did not work.

 

As for the best writing program, that is a really tough call.  Different programs are going to work differently with each individual child.  If you already have IEW SWI-A and your child (or children) is having a hard time, how quickly are you going through the lessons?  Might they need more time and review before heading off onto the next thing?

 

I don't know what you are using for grammar but Fix-It pairs really well with IEW and is VERY short each day (less than :15 4 days a week).  Fix-It has actually been helping my DD with her writing AND her reading.  

 

And what have you been using for reading remediation?  You may need to move to something targeted for dyslexics, especially if your other child may also be dyslexic.  How is she doing with sounding out new words?  Reading out loud?  

 

Yes.  Both of my older two are dyslexic and dysgraphic (dd10 moderate and confirmed, ds9 mild and unconfirmed).  Overall they both struggle with language, but up close, they have different strengths and frustrations.

 

For speed with SWI-A, I just put in a half hour a day.  Maybe a lesson a week?  I try not to hold them to a specific amount of output, just specific length of best effort.

 

We've done FLL 1, 2 and 3.  I have FLL 4, but in order to make time for different aspects of reading and writing instead of grammar (and for my advanced second grader!) we're only maintaining what we know already through memory work and touching on FLL4 once or twice a week for about 15 minutes.  I feel like they already know a ton more grammar than other kids their age lol!

 

As for reading, we went through OPGTR on the white board in grade 2 and 3, with ETC 1-4.  Daily reading out loud (she reads, I read).  Last year, she did REWARDS with some success.  She's improving by one grade level each year, but still a year below grade level.  This year she's starting Horizons - the one for older students.  She's been assessed by an O-G certified tutor and she complimented me on her phonics abilities and said she seemed almost remediated in reading, it's just the writing that was a concern for her.  And still is!

 

Right now, for reading, she reads Magic Treehouse level books on her own.  I know she needs more review of phonics and I'm hoping Horizons will be able to do that for her so she and I can free up some time to work on writing.  She's not fluent at all, and somewhat robotic.  It's partly from not-quite-automatic phonics I think.  I'm getting her to read to the preschooler each day.  We have an audible subscription and she has  Ramona Quimby love affair.  Seriously, months straight of every Ramona Quimby book over and over over and over!  We do read alouds for history during the day, for fun at bedtime and sometimes we do family read alouds in the evenings (working on Little House on Plum Creek currently).  We do a lot of reading around here!

[Tawlas]

The best lecture that I ever watched concerning writing and dyslexics was a webinar given by Dr. Charles Haynes at the Dylexic Advantage website.  You have to join the DA website to view the webinar, but the webinar is excellent.  I would view the webinar and then adapt the curriculum to meet the needs of my student.  Haynes emphasizes starting with writing good sentences and then working up to paragraphs.  He recommends a 1st person sequencing of events paragraph to be mastered after strong sentences.  Haynes discusses word retrieval issues and methods to address that.

 

I would not expect grammar to fall into place until after reading remediation is completed.  Be prepared to teach your students to type.  In the interim, scribe for your kids and/or use speech to text sofware.  I have found Siri on Apple devices to be the easiest, but you can use Android as well.  I use the mind mapping app called Inspiration for the iPad with both of my kids because it helps with organization and story sequencing. 

 

My DS has been typing all of his work since the 6th grade.  He carries a laptop and Echo SmartPen to class.  During the 7th grade, he started homeschooling and worked with an O-G and IEW certified writing instructor.  After two years of IEW, he was able to write paragraphs on his own.  I wish that I had viewed the Haynes webinar prior to the classes because it would have modified my emphasis on certain areas of IEW.

 

Be patient and try not to be discouraged.  I would totally separate the task of writing with the output of ideas.  I have never corrected my son's free writes.  DS loves history so I have found that he practices output by writing paragraphs about historical events and answering questions.  He does best when he writes about topics that he is interested in.  

 

I'm not certain that I answered your question.

 

Okay, this is the second time I've seen his webinar recommended.  I was put off by having the join the website, but it sounds like just what I need.  She does have word retrieval issues and I could use some help there!

 

I'm not too worried about grammar.  I feel like she's okay, grammar wise, at least as far as FLL 3 goes.  I think scribing may just be something I need to suck up and do.  Not my preference.  Although she's qualified for an iPad from her umbrella school, so I'm sure there's nothing but possibilities there!

 

So, in regards to your recommendation to separate writing and output of ideas, it almost seems like what I need is a "mechanics" of writing program and then more like a Bravewriter approach - even a jot-it-down level.

 

I'm not sure what my question even is right now lol, I gained some insight here so that's all that matters!

[Tawlas]

I don't think you have to separate your kids, but I think you have to separate the physical act of writing (which is clearly a double disability for her!) from the thought to word process.  At the level you're working at, scribing and pictures would be totally adequate.  With my ds (about to turn 8, so two years younger), I have him do fable retellings using an IEW book and he DRAWS his thoughts and dictates to me little sentences.

 

WWE was going ill because it's a torture session for low working memory.  If you want to build working memory, there are a lot more pleasant ways.

 

Go graphic, go visual with anything you're doing.  Is there any medium she likes?  Ipad and apps like Inspiration?  Drawing and comics?  Anything?  One of my oh so brilliant side thoughts is to cut up comics to use with my ds to work on sequencing and retelling narratives.  I wouldn't be afraid of doing these things WITH her.  

 

Yes, of the things you listed, the Diana Hanbury King materials are what the tutors around here use.  I got something like that.  I don't know, we have so many issues, so many things to work on, it just doesn't seem to be the most, most important fire.  Can she talk about her day?  Has she had language testing?  It's something we've worked on with my ds.  He was memorizing audiobooks, so we thought he was fine.  So sometimes when he writes it's just parroting his audiobooks.  It's kind of tricky to know.  It's why I'm really not worried about it right now.  But if she's not getting significant language input daily with audiobooks, you might bump that up.  We like the free e-reader from BARD/NLS and the Kindle Fire.  Both are really terrific.

 

 

Yes, I think that's becoming more and more clear (separating the physical act of writing from the thought to word process).  It's not that she doesn't have stories to tell, it's trying to get it written down.  Although I think creative writing is much easier.  Once she has to include words in a sentence (SWI-A style for example) it's gets super frustrating for her.  

 

I would be very interested in the pleasant ways to build working memory.  I'm not 100% sure what her issue is exactly.  She can remember poems from FLL, she's got her multiplication down pat - even memorizing skip counting by each number in preparation for multiplication, grammar definitions and lists from FLL aren't a problem.  But give her seven-eight words to write down (The lady has a cute black backpack) and it gets hard fast.  Especially if we do more than three or four sentences in one sitting (but writing them down one at a time).

 

Right now she's been reading Magic Treehouse books independently, but she's just qualified for a Kindle Fire from our umbrella school.  She does listen to audiobooks a lot outside of "school time" (Ramona Quimby especially right now, but also others such as Matilda by Roald Dahl) but once I get that "hightlighting while listening" thing they've got going on, we'll probably start the "history of the horse" unit study with a ton of Marguerite Henry books.  We read a loud a lot during the day, her vocabulary is pretty good.  Though she often can't think of the words she'd like to say when she needs them.  Her comprehension is good too, although mostly when listening to a story, not so much while she's reading herself.  I think that's a fluency thing.

[Heathermomster]

I've never seen Jot it Down, so I don't know how it works. My son's tutor specifically works with dyslexics, and she pushed IEW because the instruction was direct and explicit. I hated IEW, but DS learned it.

Scribing and typing are the accommodations for dysgraphia. If the school will pay for an iPad, maybe pick up a Bluetooth keyboard, download the Pages app, and use Siri and type. My DD is not diagnosed with dysgraphia; however, she has worked with an OT and ped PT for about 12 weeks total for motor planning, core, and pincer strength. For 1st grade science, we would read and talk about an animal. She would then tell me back 3 or 4 interesting facts. I would type up the info for her, and then she'd draw or color a picture attached to it. We used Evernote often because it will sync across multiple platforms. If I did not scribe, our science exercise would have been impossible. Instead, she could tell info back, and I could ask more questions while checking for comprehension.

For story, you can use mind mapping sw such as Inspiration or take pen with paper and create basic story element charts. These are great for word retrieval issues. An example would be to write down a character's name in the middle of a sheet and circle it. Create spokes off the center with one word descriptors of the character. Explore mind mapping online. These maps look like brainstorming ideas but are great ways for visual learners to process information.

Eta: When DS was 10 years old, most of his writing for literature was handson and project based. We used books like How to Report on Books. The projects consisted of booklets, posters, and brochures.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

Jot it Down is too young for a 10 yo, even with delays.  Go with WT instead.  It would have a similar feel.  Or just one of the simpler IEW books like Fairy Tales.

 

The nice thing about starting with a curriculum, when you're new to this, is that things are already chunked.  IEW will tend to use simpler language in their lower level books too.  So it's not just that the material is pre-chunked (which it is, which is awesome), but that the language is comprehensible to my ds.  WT doesn't simplify language or bring it down to grade typical AT ALL.  It can be Baldwin or something older like that, very high level, very complex.  For some kids, simpler is better.  It makes it easier for them to see the chunks, the sequence, and figure out the steps.

Edited September 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Tawlas]

Jot it Down is too young for a 10 yo, even with delays.  Go with WT instead.  It would have a similar feel.  Or just one of the simpler IEW books like Fairy Tales.

 

The nice thing about starting with a curriculum, when you're new to this, is that things are already chunked.  IEW will tend to use simpler language in their lower level books too.  So it's not just that the material is pre-chunked (which it is, which is awesome), but that the language is comprehensible to my ds.  WT doesn't simplify language or bring it down to grade typical AT ALL.  It can be Baldwin or something older like that, very high level, very complex.  For some kids, simpler is better.  It makes it easier for them to see the chunks, the sequence, and figure out the steps.

 

 

I feel stupid for asking, but what is WT?  Did I miss it somewhere?

[PeterPan]

Oops, sorry!  WT=Writing Tales.  WT1 is a super gentle, delightful start.  You can use the co-op lessons in the book to work together once a week and assign the rest as homework, if you want.