seeing the positives in ADHD/dyslexia

[caedmyn]

I'm really having a hard time seeing any positives in my 10 YO with ADHD and dylsexia (not formally diagnosed).  My 7 YO has both also, more severely, but it is easier to see positives in him, maybe because he's the more classic visual-spatial dyslexic and she is not.  I just feel really frustrated all day long with her schoolwork, chores, etc, because she doesn't really seem to be very good at anything.  How do you find the positives when there just don't seem to be any?

[wapiti]

Two suggestions:  Get evals for the undiagnosed child - it could be that the problems are a little different from what you are assuming.  Have you read The Dyslexic Advantage?  Perhaps you might see your dd among the types of individuals described there.

[maize]

Have you considered formal evaluations? There may be more going on than you are aware of. Are you saying you can see no strengths in her at all? If everything is a struggle every day she is probably even more frustrated than you. I'd be strongly inclined to get thorough evaluations and look into treatment for the ADHD in particular--that can make so many things so hard.

Edited September 28, 2016 by maize

[PeterPan]

Just looking at your sig, but have you had your baby yet? Are you trying to school now or taking a break?

 

It's very unrealistic to expect an ADHD 10yo to be mature and proficient, no matter how much you wish she would be.  She's still little, even if you do have a lot of other littles.

 

I would take a long break, bring in some help, and keep taking that break until your smile returns.  There's nothing that would go wrong in that break that audiobooks and math in the evenings with Dad can't cure.  

 

As far as the actual answer to your question, yes, agreeing with the others that this is your big clue to get evals.  ALL of the psychs we have seen (5+), ALL started out discussing strengths.  It's what they do.  You don't know you even have the correct diagnoses, and you don't have outside perspective to help you see their unrealized strengths either.  Evals would be helpful to you, but we've already talked about that.  Especially when kids aren't fitting the expected patterns, it begs whether the explanations are accurate.

Edited September 28, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[OneStepAtATime]

Agreed.  She probably DOES have underlying strengths but a formal evaluation would hopefully help you see what those are AND what weaknesses may be masking/hindering those strengths.   I realize formal evals are hard right now.   :grouphug:

 

Also, has she had a chance to really try out and explore new areas?  Maybe explore different things with an outside instructor? For instance, DD was always terrible at drawing in school and LOATHED coloring in all those picture pages they would have in class.  She hated art projects, too.  However, she took an on-line art class a couple of years back and found out she LOVES art, and is actually good in certain mediums.  She just needed a different approach and an excellent teacher to unlock her potential.  She sketches all the time now, and weaves and paints and writes poetry then illustrates it.  She is taking more art classes and thoroughly enjoying them.

 

As for not being really good at anything your DD currently does, how much scaffolding has she had to truly master anything?  Are you able to provide a lot of structured support and instruction as she learns (including for chores)?  For these kids it can take a lot longer to master something, and besides the slower pace, they may need a lot more support, more detailed instruction and review and a lot of encouragement.  DD didn't really learn to read until 7th grade.  She reads well now.  She hated writing.  She now writes quite a bit on her own and her stories are good.

Edited September 28, 2016 by OneStepAtATime

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited September 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[caedmyn]

I have read the Dyslexic Advantage, and several other books on dyslexia, and nothing quite sounds like her.  I've read stuff on different learning styles too and I'm still not sure what her learning style is, so I guess I'm just not great at reading her.

 

The baby is a month old now.  We've been doing some school since he was 2 weeks old, and are pretty much doing full school at this point.  

 

She is decent at drawing.  TBH I am not a person who notices positives easily, and I have a VERY low frustration tolerance, so probably I feel like things are worse than they actually are.  She has not had a lot of opportunities for outside instruction other than when she went to school K-2, because it's just hard with so many younger kids and living 15-20 minutes from town.  She is in 4-H now and took a couple of sewing classes through that last year and will take a horse class through it this year.  We may enroll the older three kids all in martial arts soon too if I can manage it.

 

Would public schools actually do evaluations for a child who is working at grade level and doing decently?  She is working at grade level in everything.  

 

I feel like I have done a lot of scaffolding and instruction the last 6 months or so since I realized what her issues were.  But I feel like things don't stick very well.  For instance, one of her chores is cleaning up the kitchen after lunch every day.  She's been doing parts of this since she was 7, and I've gradually added to it over the past year until the entire thing is her job.  She is supposed to put the dirty dishes in the dishwasher, wash a couple of pots and pans, wipe the table and counters, clean up the floor under the table, and put the now-clean pots and pans away.  She has a list of what she needs to do on the wall next to the sink.  She gets a point for our reward system which she really likes if she does the job properly.  She absolutely knows how to do it, but she forgets some part of it nearly every day.  Or bedtime...she would drag it out forever so I can up with a system for it, where she has 4 things to do to get ready for bed after dinner and then is supposed to set a timer for the amount of time she has left until bedtime so that when it goes off she knows to go to bed and I don't have to remind her.  There's a consequence if she is late and a reward if she is on time.  This worked great for a while, but now she regularly forgets to set the timer.  She has no particular bedtime issues...so why did what was working before as far as her remembering to do the 4 things + set the timer stop working??

 

i feel frustrated by school for her because she can't seem to make corrections in anything independently.  Part of this I think is how she interacts with me...if DH is helping her and tells her to figure it out she whines a bit and then figures it out.  With me it's like she knows it's easier to act like she can't figure it out and wait for me to give her hints or otherwise help her.  I know things are more difficult for her than for the average kid...but I also don't think she puts in as much effort as she could.

 

And I feel frustrated by her lack of self-motivation.  I know this is common with ADHD kids, but even my 7 YO has some internal get-up-and-go.  She really doesn't.  Even if she really wants something, anything that takes more than a day to complete isn't going to get done without a bunch of prodding on my part.  This includes everything from craft projects she starts to writing a letter to a friend to doing extra chores to earn money.  She wants to, but she has no internal motivation.  I was highly self-motivated even as a young child, so I have a hard time with this.

[maize]

As an ADULT with ADHD I think I would struggle to meet your expectations. Believe me when I say tasks and parts of tasks get forgotten every single day. Things get left partway done, projects started and never finished.

 

You're ascribing executive function deficits to laziness and lack of effort. That's not how it works. For an ADHD kid, getting halfway through cleaning up the kitchen after lunch may take more effort than it would take a non-ADHD person to do the whole job and vacuum every room in the house to boot.

[Heathermomster]

She needs to be properly tested and diagnosed. My DS works with a CBT to sort out his EF issues. There are cognitive programs that she can be doing to help improve WM, goal directed persistence, and task initiation. The CBT works with parents to help establish scaffolding and consequences, and these issues take way more than 6 months to sort.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Heathermomster

[maize]

The other thing I would recommend is that you try hard to remember that ten years old is still a little kid. I know what it is like to have a bunch of littles--you NEED that oldest child to be mature and responsible. But a ten year old is just a ten year old, there is a ton of brain maturation that hasn't happened yet.

[kbutton]

If she does have ADHD, meds could help a LOT. My son is night and day different on meds, though I will readily admit that in some ways, he's a big self-starter. It just depends on what he wants to do. Without meds, he often can't accomplish what he wants to do either and goes in circles all day.

[Janeway]

Better at puzzles, can read upside down easier

[PeterPan]

It sounds like her checklist is going to have to include the steps for each task.  Fwiw, my dd was pretty hairbrained at that age, and we had a lot of that mismatch between what I wanted her to be able to do and what she was doing.  Somewhere along the path it happened, and now, at 17, she is managing 3 college classes and deadlines, etc. by herself.  I *would* get evals, yes.  I would *not* assume it's dyslexia, because it doesn't sound like it is.  The real curiosity is whether it's ADHD or ADHD+.  

 

Have you thought about putting her in school?  If she's bored, lonely, frustrated (being the only girl), why not?  She's clearly functional, and the increased structure of school might actually work really well for her.  She might thrive in it.  

 

Are you able to make other things happen?  I mean, we can talk what would work, but it's more a question of what you can make happen.  My dd has that sort of laidback personality, but she gets really competitive in a group.  You just don't have a dynamic going that does that for her.  I really don't think homeschooling is as romantic and perfect for everyone as books and boards and whatnot make it sound.  She's 10.  She'll be 12 soon.  So maybe not this year, but in a year or two, maybe before 8th, you switch her over to a school, kwim?  

 

I'm NOT saying I wish I had put my dd in school.  Things have worked out well for my dd and we made the best choice we could.  But it was really crunchy, and the things that are bugging you, that bugged us at the time, are still issues.  It's not like it she turned into some other child.  She is who she is.  She's highly impulsive, highly creative (sews, etc., like your dd), not particularly academically motivated unless she's interested in it, etc.  It could be a jettison plan would give you a lot of peace.  It would be something to think about for a year or two or three down the road.

[caedmyn]

She is good at puzzles.  She's a decent cook/baker.  She's decent at calming the baby down, though she's completely uninterested in him...I bribe her to keep an ear out for him if I need to take a shower or a short nap (he's sleeping when I start but no guarantee ever that he'll stay sleeping) and try to keep him happy til I get done if he wakes.  She won't ever hold him or show any interest in him otherwise.  She's tired of little brothers and disappointed that she didn't get to be there when he was born.

 

I have considered school for her.  Guess we'll see what happens next year.

 

Her checklist does include the steps for each task.  It just isn't helping anymore.  I asked her if she still looks at her lunch clean-up list every time and she said no because she has it memorized...clearly not if she keeps forgetting things.  Guess that's part of the problem.  I think part of the problem also is that I stopped the consequences for not doing things properly once she was doing well at a particular thing and just kept the incentives.  I think she needs both.

 

She pretty clearly has some phonological issues.  Not as bad as 7 YOs, but definitely there.  I don't know how she managed to learn to read as well as she did with those issues.  

 

I am quite certain that *some* things are lack of effort/incentive though.  She had to write sentences when she was in school in 2nd grade, with a very no-nonsense, no excuses teacher.  She wrote them reasonably well, without help.  There is no way that she is now incapable of writing essentially the same type of sentences (due to curriculum differences) in 5th grade.  And if she can remember to set her timer for bedtime for 3 weeks, she's certainly capable of continuing to do that.  Maybe she needs the extra motivation of having both a consequence if she doesn't and an incentive if she does, but she's shown in that area and others that she is capable of regularly doing what she needs to.

 

It would actually be nice if she was only as immature as the average 10 YO.  She's definitely less mature than most of her similar-age friends.  I was baby-sitting my 5 YO and 1 YO siblings at 9 YO, and other people's kids' at their houses when I was 11, and I wasn't a particularly mature-for-my-age child.  It is what it is, but still frustrating.

[OneStepAtATime]

Could she be suffering from depression?  Lack of motivation to stay on task can originate with feelings of depression and lack of self-worth.  Does she feel she has anything worth sharing with the world?  Is there anything she is really fired up about doing?  Does she have friends she can go hang out with and just be a kid?

[eternalsummer]

She is good at puzzles.  She's a decent cook/baker.  She's decent at calming the baby down, though she's completely uninterested in him...I bribe her to keep an ear out for him if I need to take a shower or a short nap (he's sleeping when I start but no guarantee ever that he'll stay sleeping) and try to keep him happy til I get done if he wakes.  She won't ever hold him or show any interest in him otherwise.  She's tired of little brothers and disappointed that she didn't get to be there when he was born.

 

I have considered school for her.  Guess we'll see what happens next year.

 

Her checklist does include the steps for each task.  It just isn't helping anymore.  I asked her if she still looks at her lunch clean-up list every time and she said no because she has it memorized...clearly not if she keeps forgetting things.  Guess that's part of the problem.  I think part of the problem also is that I stopped the consequences for not doing things properly once she was doing well at a particular thing and just kept the incentives.  I think she needs both.

 

She pretty clearly has some phonological issues.  Not as bad as 7 YOs, but definitely there.  I don't know how she managed to learn to read as well as she did with those issues.  

 

I am quite certain that *some* things are lack of effort/incentive though.  She had to write sentences when she was in school in 2nd grade, with a very no-nonsense, no excuses teacher.  She wrote them reasonably well, without help.  There is no way that she is now incapable of writing essentially the same type of sentences (due to curriculum differences) in 5th grade.  And if she can remember to set her timer for bedtime for 3 weeks, she's certainly capable of continuing to do that.  Maybe she needs the extra motivation of having both a consequence if she doesn't and an incentive if she does, but she's shown in that area and others that she is capable of regularly doing what she needs to.

 

It would actually be nice if she was only as immature as the average 10 YO.  She's definitely less mature than most of her similar-age friends.  I was baby-sitting my 5 YO and 1 YO siblings at 9 YO, and other people's kids' at their houses when I was 11, and I wasn't a particularly mature-for-my-age child.  It is what it is, but still frustrating.

 

The bolded is 100% untrue.

 

For me, when I first start a new accommodation or technique or something to manage some task that I'm starting to fall behind on, it works for a while because it is new and is stuck up there in my brain in the "new things" region.  I am also good at things that are absolutely habit as I've done them the same way for years.

 

It is the in-between period - between 2 weeks of doing something and 2 years of doing it - in which it is easy for my brain to drop it.  

 

Thus I keep coming up with new ways of managing things (and, tbh, other family members manage some of it for me).

 

 

I would just say that while it would indeed be nice to have a 10 year old girl who can help you with the housework and the littles at at least an average for 10 year old girls rate, the truth is she owes you none of that, and if she can't do it, expecting her to is just frustrating for both of you.

[City Mouse]

If she does have both ADHD and dyslexia is is going to face more challenges than kids with only one of those issues. Do get her tested so that you know what you are dealing with, then change your expectations.

Sure, it would be great if you had a 10 yr old genius who would do all her chores with out being reminded (I would love to have one of those too) but she is not. You have to re-frame your thought process and expectations.

 

I wa also babysitting other people's kids at 11yrs old, but there is no way I would suggested my DD do that. I think she was at least 13 or 14 before she baby sat anyone on her own and that was just a couple of times, little kids are not her thing.

 

It sounds a bit like you are tired and frustrated and would really like it if she took on more responsibilities, but that may not be realistic for her, or maybe those aren't the right responsibilities for her.

 

Use her strengths to your advantage. You said she is a pretty good cook, so have her help more in the kitchen.

 

My DS14 is still not good at working independently, but give him a task working with someone, and he is tireless. He loves helping people. He will work all day long helping the neighbors build a chicken coop, or booksheles, or even just picking up,rocks in the yard, even cleaning. He is great as long as someone else is there, but if I expected him to clean up the kitchen by himself, it would never get done.

 

Try to think of strengths outside of school work and household chores. My son has a very different way of thinking that I do. He can take those metal ring type puzzles and solve them very quickly. When we were on vacation this summer, he and some kid were solving some puzzle thing made of horse shoes, chain, and a metal ring in the gift shop and several other tourists were watching. One day, I bought him a wooden block puzzle that had to be taken apart to get at the marble inside. It was rated "challenging". He had the stupid (my word not his) thing taken apart before we made it back to the car. I don't know how he does it. I'm no good at those puzzles. I wish i knew what kinf of career to steer him towards.

Edited October 3, 2016 by City Mouse

[eternalsummer]

If she does have both ADHD and dyslexia is is going to face more challenges than kids with only one of those issues. Do get her tested so that you know what you are dealing with, then change your expectations.

Sure, it would be great if you had a 10 yr old genius who would do all her chores with out being reminded (I would love to have one of those too) but she is not. You have to re-frame your thought process and expectations.

 

I wa also babysitting other people's kids at 11yrs old, but there is no way I would suggested my DD do that. I think she was at least 13 or 14 before she baby sat anyone on her own and that was just a couple of times, little kids are not her thing.

 

It sounds a bit like you are tired and frustrated and would really like it if she took on more responsibilities, but that may not be realistic for her, or maybe those aren't the right responsibilities for her.

 

Use her strengths to your advantage. You said she is a pretty good cook, so have her help more in the kitchen.

 

My DS14 is still not good at working independently, but give him a task working with someone, and he is tireless. He loves helping people. He will work all day long helping the neighbors build a chicken coop, or booksheles, or even just picking up,rocks in the yard, even cleaning. He is great as long as someone else is there, but if I expected him to clean up the kitchen by himself, it would never get done.

 

Try to think of strengths outside of school work and household chores. My son has a very different way of thinking that I do. He can take those metal ring type puzzles and solve them very quickly. When we were on vacation this summer, he and some kid were solving some puzzle thing made of horse shoes, chain, and a metal ring in the gift shop and several other tourists were watching. One day, I bought him a wooden block puzzle that had to be taken apart to get at the marble inside. It was rated "challenging". He had the stupid (my word not his) thing taken apart before we made it back to the car. I don't know how he does it. I'm no good at those puzzles. I wish i knew what kinf of career to steer him towards.

 

 

engineering :)

[MistyMountain]

Kids with ADHD tend to have brains that mature later then other kids too so that is why she seems less mature then her peers. She probably is less mature but she will mature in time. If she has dyslexia signs there is also a decent chance that she has a slow processing speed which also exercerbates the issues you describe. It is ok if a kid does not have amazing strengths. They could be a late bloomer or even if they are not it is ok. My kids and I have difficulty with the stuff you describe like cleaning up after a meal, any chore or school work motivation. That is a very long list with lots of steps for cleaning up after a meal for a 10 year old with ADHD.

Edited October 3, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Guest]

More consequences for something forgotten will not help a child/person with ADD remember next time. Like someone else has said, the reason it all worked before is that it was new-y. It stopped being new, it stopped working as a peg to hang the memory on.

 

Think of it like that. You know how we talk about memory pegs? For ADD, memory pegs expire and fall off for things that are not intrinsically from within themselves.

 

I am most concerned with the dyslexia. I think THAT is actually your most pressing concern because you're saying things like "I don't even know how she learned how to read.....but she could definitely do those sentences if the teacher [you, now] were more no-nonsense..."

 

Well, how do you know the second but not the first part? I get the impression that you are throwing things at her that you think she should be able to do, but she can't do it and she's telling you that. Her behavior is screaming that she can not do what you're asking of her.

 

If your kneejerk reaction is to say that she's definitely capable of SOME of it, at least...well sure, welcome to raising kids. They don't go from zero to complete. If they did, they wouldn't need us.

 

And I assure you, I learned all this in the trenches. So many regrets... that I almost took too far to undo the damage to our relationship. Thankfully, not quite!

 

As for the baby....if she will occasionally help you out and is kind to the baby, you can't ask for more. She has her own feelings about the people she lives with, they are hers and she owns them. Every person isn't going to feel super enthusiastic about every sibling lol. Wouldn't that be stupendous!

 

Anyway, she needs a formal dyslexia diagnosis, and you need to learn how she learned to read, so that you can continue to teach her, or hand her academics over to the school with an IEP in place.

 

And keep asking about ADHD...talk it out here, with your friends and husband, etc, read the books....until you're at a place where it "clicks" in your mind where your DD is with things. When you truly internalize that her mind is a racecar (analogy from Superarenting for ADD, one of the many books you should read!), that's when you'll be like oh right I can't keep trying to shove things in there like it's a conversion van. Only one or two things fit inside a race car at any given time :) And they are so super great at some things. Just not conversion van things.

[Guest]

Wait I just saw that the baby is a month old.

 

So there's this huge, upsetting thing that's brand new. Upsetting as in: nothing is the same. Also, irt her enthusiasm for the baby yeah for double sure give that time.

 

Did you feel as negatively toward the behavior you've described before you were pregnant?

[PeterPan]

She sounds depressed.  She doesn't need to be the baby watcher.  

 

Kids are not just ever-lastingly happy with the ability to put up with EVERYTHING and handle EVERYTHING.  You've got lots of SN, a newborn baby, little time to give, and did we mention lots of SN?  And you're post-partum, which means you have your own body you're dealing with.

 

What would be the consequences of putting her in school now?  Do you have options?  The school could eval her (score), give intervention on the reading (score), give age-appropriate challenges for her to rise up to (score), and give her a break away from the horde of boys (score).  

Edited October 3, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

Public school has barely started. It is not too late by any means.

 

Or just see what happens next year 10-11 months from now.

 

I think it is on the table now, not something that has to be deferred in particular. It could be a now thing.

 

I don't know all the factors in deciding, but it is not too late.

[caedmyn]

She wouldn't go to public school, she'd go back to the Christian school she went to before, and they don't offer evaluations or reading help. Idk that the trade-offs would be worth her being around other kids more.

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all if she has slow processing speeds.

 

I don't think she's depressed. She's happy enough other than being frustrated with her brothers at times. She would like another girl to play with regularly but she hasn't found a reliable friend. I've tried to find her one but not a lot of luck. She does go to a weekly kids fellowship group besides seeing other kids at church a couple times a week, and 4-H once a month, and hopefully a 4-H class a couple times a month. And she does play with her brothers...it's not like they never play together.

 

I need naps to be able to function. It does not hurt her to hold the baby for a bit while she watches a movie if he wakes up. She brings him to me if he's fussy. If I could make sure he'd sleep while I nap, or nap with him, I would, but I've tried and can't make it work.

 

It doesn't seem like the baby's arrival has changed how my other kids act, except maybe the 3 yo is more whiny. Yes DD's issues bothered me before. It was just less frustrating in the summer since we weren't doing school so there was less to have to stay on top of.

[Guest]

What do you think should be done about what's happening in your home right now, OP?

[caedmyn]

I don't know. Nothing I try seems to work out.

[Heathermomster]

Where is your DH and why can't he oversea bedtime?

 

Why can't your DH make sack lunches for everyone prior to going to work so that lunch cleanup is minimal?

 

If your DD is so forgetful, I'm surprised you'd want her to watch a newborn. Do you have a family member or Church friend that can help you?

Edited October 4, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Guest]

I don't know. Nothing I try seems to work out.

 

(((())))

 

It's hard. We want the best for them and we HAVE to take care of everyone, all at once.

 

Please review the advice given in this thread carefully. So many people have BTDT. You're still trying to replace race car parts with van parts. It won't work and you'll start doing irrevocable damage to your relationship, which is **the** most important thing for your to protect. 

 

You don't REALLY need to see the positives. You need to just accept your little person for who she is, right now. Just get to know her, in general. Knowing the positives will flow from that.

[Storygirl]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I know how it feels to be overwhelmed without seeing a way for things to change. A few years ago, I reached a place of extreme burn out, and DH and I finally decided we needed to place some of the children in a private Christian school. But one of my children was not admitted.

 

That was a heartbreaking shock, but it pushed us to pursue evaluations, which was ultimately helpful. We discovered some things during the evaluations that we never would have figured out on our own, and the new information was vital in shaping the subsequent decisions that we made.

 

After the school rejection, I homeschooled for another year and a half, because we knew we would be moving, and we didn't want to enroll the children, just to pull them out again a few months later. It was an extremely tough time for me.

 

They are all in school now. Four children in three different schools, actually, which is logistically challenging. But it's working out better than homeschooling did. When we looked for schools, it was hard to find some place that would be a good fit for them -- we have a variety of different learning challenges in the mix. We were fortunate to be able to find a small Christian school here that has a good intervention team, but if we had not, we would have put them in public school. I was not in a place where I could do all that they needed through homeschooling any more. Their needs and challenges were too great, and I was so depleted.

 

I really do feel for you.

 

Can you consider the public school? Even if it doesn't meet your standards, if your standards are not being met through homeschooling, either, it could be a viable choice. Can you send some of the children to school? Perhaps if the 5 and 7 year olds go to school, you could manage teaching the 10 year old, working on remediating the reading, since the school might not do that as well as you would like.

Edited October 5, 2016 by Storygirl