help stopping bad habit (sensory related?)

[caedmyn]

My 7 YO with sensory seeking issues has a habit of sucking on a finger while putting his hand down his pants and playing with himself.  He's been doing this since he was around 21 months old when I made the mistake of weaning him and taking his binky away at about the same time.  I have tried everything I can think of over the past 3 or so years to get him to stop doing this, or at least stop putting his hand down his pants, with no success.  Mostly now I just tell him to stop when I see him do it.  He's getting old enough that this is no longer remotely socially acceptable and he really needs to stop doing it.  He mostly does it when watching a movie or having a book read to him/listening to an audiobook, at bedtime, at church, and in the car, but also does it at random times like while playing if there's a lull in the action...particularly if he's tired.  I got him a chew necklace thinking that would occupy his mouth and help him stop, but he'll chew on the necklace all day long and return to sucking on his finger at the times when he normally does it.  He never puts his hand down his pants unless he's sucking on his finger.  My other boys have started doing it too...the 5 YO because he knows it bothers me (he's an ODD child), and the 3 YO because he copies literally every.single negative thing either of his brothers do.  His copycat-ness is insane.  Any suggestions?

[PeterPan]

Well ABA would tell you to find times when it's *not* happening and praise him or reward with tokens, small motivators.  As you say, negative doesn't work with more challenging kids.

[Lecka]

You can also look for more "replacement behaviors." What else can you give him to do with his hands while he is listening to stuff?  Can he do Legos or play with cars and still listen?  Coloring?  Blocks? 

 

Could he have another "marketed for sensory stuff" toy that is for occupying his hands?

 

On the attention side, you can give more positive attention when he is not doing it, than attention when he is doing it.  This can matter a lot for some kids. 

 

I am going to say something really presumptuous.... have you considered moving for services?  You could live somewhere where probably there would be positive services.  If you have got a great support network (family, church, etc), like everything, etc., then it is a silly thing to consider.  But I live in a place that is considered a "service desert" and people move, and I have heard major positives from people who have moved.  This has been only people who did not have family ties to this area and where the husband's job was similar ----- but it is a thing, people do it. 

 

People here do both big moves  and little moves.... little moves to get in a better school district or county, or nearer to an area where there are actually service providers.  And then big moves to move to a state that funds things that this state just does not fund.

 

It can make a really, really big difference for some kids who need a little more. 

[MistyMountain]

Maybe rather then getting him to stop all together emphasize that that is something you do in private. Acknowledge that touching your privates can feel good but private parts are something that you need to keep private especially out in public. By touching them around other people he is not respecting other people boundaries. Just redirect him if he is at home and can be redirected or, give him something he can play with to occupy himself at home or somewhere like church.

Edited September 28, 2016 by MistyMountain

[caedmyn]

I can try the "private" conversation.  Positive reinforcement when he doesn't do it might help.  Seems like everything keeps coming back to positive reinforcement and I am so not good at that.  Seems like I spend all my time putting out fires and meeting basic needs and there is no mental or emotional energy left over to notice/comment on positive behaviors.

 

We actually live in the 2nd largest city in Montana.  It's just not one of the more well-off cities so I don't think there's as many services as there are in some of the other areas.

[Lecka]

If you have to focus on it with one kid, you might see the fastest/easiest results with your little copycat.

 

Kids copying the thing that is getting siblings attention..... when it is happening, it can be a message that you need to give another way to get your strongest (animated, loud) attention. Does not matter if it is phony to you if it is not seeming phony to your kids. The little one is so little it probably won't be hard to be phony and he doesn't know -- if needed.

 

Edit -- I just mean, I am not always in the mood either! But nobody else is going to do it if I don't, so sometimes I have to do it anyway.

 

Also if you see it be effective it will be easier to do it.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Lecka

[kbutton]

You can also look for more "replacement behaviors." What else can you give him to do with his hands while he is listening to stuff?  Can he do Legos or play with cars and still listen?  Coloring?  Blocks? 

 

Could he have another "marketed for sensory stuff" toy that is for occupying his hands?

 

Because I'd want to know...should they be trying to replace the sucking on his finger or the hands down the pants? I see the part about the chewing jewelry thing, but sucking and chewing are kind of different. 

 

Caedmyn, it sounds like you know when he wants to suck his finger--are those times that you could give him something different to suck on (vs. chew)? Or is it kind of a choking risk because he's tired? Maybe even some kind of food thing that wouldn't start a new tricky habit of some sort.

 

I'm just trying to think of subtle stuff that might make a difference for you.

 

I'm thinking giving the hand that isn't in his mouth something to do might work better if you can't find a suitable replacement for finger.

 

Have you seen z-vibes? They are more in the chew than suck category, but maybe because it's really different, it would help distract from the other activity down below. You'd need the main part for the vibration, but here are the kinds of tips you can use: http://www.arktherapeutic.com/z-vibe-tips/ 

[PeterPan]

Amazon.com: stop that seemingly senseless behavior

 

This book explains how to look at antecedents, behaviors, and consequences like a professional.  It's a SHORT read and it would be shockingly worth your time.  It would make your efforts more targeted.  It's what a professional would do if they came in your home.

 

When my ds is engaged in self-stimulatory behavior (what you're describing), one of the tools you have is to limit it.  Like you can say ok, we're gonna do that for 5 minutes, then we're going to break and go do something else.  You can also decrease the target time or number of incidences and praise the DECREASE.  So today he did it for 5 minutes instead of 6, and you praise.  

Edited September 29, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Behavior Support Archives - Page 2 of 9 - Autism Classroom Resources

 

This lady's stuff is all good.  Lots of articles.  You can google anything ABA and find more sites.  

 

It's not that any of this is so rocket science.  It's just that one person can't do it all.  Even if you only had one or two kids, you'd STILL be tired and want help.  Help is good.  

[Lecka]

I totally agree with pps's recommendations.

 

To be blunt -- is there any way for you to get services for the 7yo where you are living and with your current level of access to services of any kind? Bc it sounds like you could live another place and he could receive helpful services, and probably you would then be in a much better place with him, and then have a lot more to give your other kids.

 

Bc I think an answer to your question about how do people do it, is that often the 7yo in the scenario is receiving some services.

 

Some of these vary greatly by state, and sometimes people move out of state or move within the state. I am just saying it is a real thing. If you have never considered it but are also wondering how other people do it -- it is a factor. I don't think it is just you but you have the same options and resources as other people may have.

[Lecka]

If you think it is all your fault (or 99%) then that can be a barrier to getting services that may be needed. A lack of services or a way to pay for them can also be a barrier.

 

I don't know exactly your situation. But if you blame yourself ---- it does not make sense, bc you seem like a concerned mother who is trying things. But from the outside it seems to be to the point where services may be needed -- and help! It isn't like giving up, it is actually a way for things to improve.

 

But it is something where realistically, where I live, people move over it, bc of what our state doesn't fund and doesn't require insurance to fund, that are services that are taken for granted in other places.

 

Or maybe just a better school district or a state with different homeschooling laws, or living closer to school to eliminate the bus ride (is this you with the 40 min. bus ride?).

Edited September 29, 2016 by Lecka

[caedmyn]

He could suck on something else if I can think of something else he could suck on.  That z-vibe thing is interesting...too bad there's not a way to try it out before spending $35 on it.

 

I don't think he would play with anything while watching a movie.  He zones in to them too much.  And he watches a movie every day so I can nap, unfortunately.  Cutting down the time he does it is an idea but hard because I am not in a position to oversee many of the times he does it, like movie time and car rides (15-20 mins to town and I can't see him from the driver's seat, and can't rearrange the seating b/c of the baby), and bedtime.  I have even tried sitting with him while he goes to sleep to make sure he doesn't do it only to go in later and find that he's moved in his sleep and is doing it anyway!

 

I don't think it's my fault necessarily.  But in hindsight I can see that weaning him and taking away his binky at about the same time really wasn't a wise idea for a kid with sensory issues...not that I knew he had sensory issues at the time.  I wish I had known, as addressing those would have made life much easier with him I am sure!  But I didn't know, and it is what it is.

 

I do not know what sort of help/services to look for, besides OT.  We have been trying to find a mother's helper for the past three months with no success.  One person decided she didn't want to drive out to where we live, some people have been no-shows for an interview, someone cancelled the interview last-minute because she found another job, someone else decided they preferred a job as a baby-sitter and not a mother's helper.  I don't know what else to do.

 

We have talked about moving for years but right now DH has a really great job and we won't go anywhere for as long as it lasts.

 

I put an ILL request in for that book, OhE, and that website is really interesting.  Will spend some more time reading it.

[Terabith]

Pacifier? My 11 year old still uses one.

[nature girl]

Is there a reason you don't want him doing it while he's going to sleep? I wouldn't have a problem with that, and would actually encourage him to limit it to those times. And maybe whenever you see him doing it outside the bedroom you can tell him that because it's private, he needs to go up to his room if he wants to continue. That he's not allowed in the living room, or other public places. I don't think you'll be able to stop him playing with himself altogether (and there's really no reason to.)

 

I wouldn't blame yourself, it has nothing to do with weaning and taking away the pacifier, this is just something many kids do starting at a very young age. It's completely normal.

 

You could also make deals with him...If he keeps his hands busy with something else while he's in the car, you'll give him a star on his reward chart (or some other small reward.) And stop periodically to make sure. Or even, awful as it sounds, have your other kids let you know when they see it happening. When it does, I'd just say calmly, "I'm sorry but that needs to be done in private, you can go upstairs if you'd like." (Or wait till we're home, if it's outside the house.)

[caedmyn]

So reading some on that autismclassroom oage, about finding the function of a behaviot...what do you do when the function is getting attention from siblings? Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but all of my boys think it's great fun to see how silly they can be to make each other laugh. I cannot figure out how to stop them once they start and so they spend the entire day crashing into things, using toilet talk, throwing things, burping during prayers, and anything and everything they can think of that might make a sibling laugh. I cannot separate them far enough to get them out of earshot and eyesight of each other and still keep an eye on them (because they constantly get into trouble if out of sight), and anyway, even if I get them settled down for a bit they go right back to it first chance they get. I don't know how to remove or replace "sibling attention" as a reinforcer.

[PeterPan]

Electric toothbrush is the cheapie/hack alternative to the z-vibe.

[PeterPan]

So reading some on that autismclassroom oage, about finding the function of a behaviot...what do you do when the function is getting attention from siblings? Maybe I should start a new thread for this, but all of my boys think it's great fun to see how silly they can be to make each other laugh. I cannot figure out how to stop them once they start and so they spend the entire day crashing into things, using toilet talk, throwing things, burping during prayers, and anything and everything they can think of that might make a sibling laugh. I cannot separate them far enough to get them out of earshot and eyesight of each other and still keep an eye on them (because they constantly get into trouble if out of sight), and anyway, even if I get them settled down for a bit they go right back to it first chance they get. I don't know how to remove or replace "sibling attention" as a reinforcer.

 

I haven't taught multiple kids, so keep that in mind.  You have a complex situation there, because being OVER-silly is out of control, yellow zone, in our Zones of Regulation.  There's just a kiddish version of it (being playful, not following the group plan, off topic), and then there's being out of control, moving from green zone and productive to yellow zone.  

 

So to me it really depends on whether they're being a problem (not on the plan, plan not clear, need consequences) or whether they're losing control and need check-in points for self-control.  

 

Our behaviorist has us review rules every morning and explain privileges.  There's a lot that doesn't click with my ds, but PRIVILEGES click in his brain.  So you explain the rules (this is how we sit, we follow the group plan, we...) and you explain their privileges (being together, audiobooks, tv, movies, dessert, dog/cat, whatever).  And you very calmly explain that breaking the rules results in losing privileges.  Not weeks at a time, just immediate, clear, direct.

 

I'm *guessing* you have a structure issue, that you don't have enough structure going to keep all the kids on track, meaning the minute you turn your back or sneeze or answer the phone or nurse or blink or want a drink, entropy ensues.  I'm pretty real here, kwim?  And if you've got an entropy problem, then you have to bring more structure, kwim?  Very clear structure, clear expectations.

 

For instance, if I had 4 boys (which I don't) and one room to school in (which I do), then I would divide that room into 4 zones.  I would have dividers, carpets ($15 at Walmart), use crates, use old dressers, whatever it takes, and there would be 4 zones.  And the zones would have associated tasks and the appropriate supplies.  So one zone would be independent reading, and the books would be in the crates there.  Another zone would be a table to work with mom, and their bin with their table work would be there.  And another zone would be play zone, with legos and cool little things to play with.  And the 4th zone could be an independent work bin.  Take a 30 gallon tote and put a pillow inside.  Boom, done.

 

That gives you 4 zones.  They work 20 minutes in the zones, then they all rotate one.  If they get off the group plan, they lose privileges.  Explain the rules.  

 

That's STRUCTURE.  That's how I work with my ds now.  He's really phenomenally high energy.  Even with only one of him, THAT is how we work.  And when we take breaks, we use our open floor space and play really active games with a timer.  Then we go BACK to our zones and work some more.  

 

That works for us.  I could put all 4 of your boys in my little bedroom set-up with zones and work all of them.  Put earbuds and an audiobook in the play zone so the boy there gets audiobooks if you want.  And build in rewards, like everyone works through their zones one time and we do X (game break in room, snack, whatever).  If they DON'T work their zones properly one time through, then we run out of time for that group activity we really wanted to do, bummer.  Rotate through the zones a 2nd time.  If they like history, then history or science together could be your group/reward activity.  Whatever motivates them.  

 

And you could spice that up with 5 minutes of wild side activities when the buzzer goes off to rotate.

 

Whatever, just thinking out loud with you.  But that's the kind of structure we use.  And checklists and timers.  It takes energy, yes.  That's why I have people come in now, because I'm mortal.

[Innisfree]

I don't have as many kids as you, but I do have two. The sort of over-the-top silliness and lack of regulation you describe is absolutely characteristic of one of them. She *can not* control that once she gets giddy and excited.

 

Or, actually: she *could* not.

 

ABA has helped enormously, plus some age and maturity.

 

But I recognize the sort of scene you're describing. One gets out of control, the other gets angry/excited/resentful/indignant and responds in an over-the-top way, and the whole thing spirals out of control very quickly. Btdt.

 

You can make the same dynamic work in your favor. Watch for *any* good behavior, name it, praise it, and reward it. Be dramatic. Ice cream and candy have been transformational for us (always making sure they don't have artificial colors which cause big trouble here).

 

Get them paying attention to the fact that their sibling just got rewarded for sitting quietly for five minutes.

 

Use rewards carefully but liberally.

 

One of the most enlightening things I've ever seen is the row of dog pens at our local humane society. It used to be pandemonium any time someone walked by. Now, the dogs all sit quietly and oh-so-attentively at the front of their pens. Understand, these are new dogs all the time, but they catch on fast.

 

On the front of each pen is a bucket of dog biscuits and a sign: "Please reward me when I am quiet."

 

It works.

 

It sounds like an insulting comparison, and I don't mean it that way at all. Behavioral principles are the same with dogs and kids. Insofar as possible, don't reward bad behavior with attention. Attention really is a reward. If the kids have you upset, they're getting that attention, and it's a reward. Stay calm, and give better rewards for good behavior.

 

And when you have several kids, they can learn by example. Let them see that calmness and cooperation get rewarded.

[Julie Smith]

When my sister in laws son had a similar problem she made it impossible for him to put his hands down his pants. After about two weeks he broke the habit. As a side effect of the hand down the pants proofing she had to help with the bathroom and it took extra long.