Orthodox Christianity Questions

[luckymom]

Hi - If you are Orthodox Christian please help me out...

 

For our history lesson, we were just learning about the how the Roman Catholic Church developed in the West while the Orthodox Church developed in the East.

 

My dc would like to know more about the Orthodox Church - beliefs, rituals, traditions, requirements, saints, holidays, etc. Also, the doctrinal differences with other Christian churches.

 

PLEASE, I am not looking to start a theological debate.  I only want information to share with my dc as the lesson made them curious.

 

Many thanks.

[Hyacinth]

The EO ladies here are AWESOME with this stuff. Just responding to give you a bump.

[Little Nyssa]

The best book to start with is The Orthodox Church by Timothy Ware, (also called Kallistos Ware). It's an adult level book, though, so if your DC are little something else might be better.

Enjoy your explorations!

[Guest]

It would help me a little to know the ages of your kids and a bit about the breadth and depth they seek.

 

The Orthodox Church is a good book and overview but if that is TMI, I have one more recommendation. It is a very high level comparison chart. It looks at 12 different Christisn groups, 6 liturgical and 6 non-liturgical. It is super high level, and while it misses nuances, I think it is a pretty accurate rendering of the traditions with which I had an educated familiarity.

 

http://www.rose-publishing.com/Denominations-Comparison-Wall-Chart-Laminated-P93.aspx

 

They produce a similar product comparing world religions but I have not seen that one in real life.

 

Other than this chart, which I saw more than ten years ago, I am unfamiliar with Rose Publishing.

[luckymom]

Thanks for the responses.

 

My dc are 10 and 7.  They are looking for basic information.

[Guest]

Ok. I'll make an effort at this tomorrow. I'll think from a child's perspective. :9)

[gardenmom5]

I have a question.  I'm wondering if dudeling's ND is orthodox christian (just curiosity - I adore her.  she is so good.)

for dress/clothing -  uncut covered hair  (it is always wrapped in various fabrics- and it's clear she has a LOT of hair), long skirts.

Priests, she had one bless her new office and there was a cedar sprig above each? door.  (a lot of doors in the office.)

[Guest]

Doesn't sound like Orthodox praxis per se. We do some of these things, but they are not required or even expected...and the cedar sprigs is new to me. But as Orthodoxy has many cultural expressions, I'm not saying a definite "no." But it would cultural, not Orthopraxy. :0)

[gardenmom5]

Doesn't sound like Orthodox praxis per se. We do some of these things, but they are not required or even expected...and the cedar sprigs is new to me. But as Orthodoxy has many cultural expressions, I'm not saying a definite "no." But it would cultural, not Orthopraxy. :0)

 

thanks.  it could also be something completely different.  just not sure what. 

it may be some form of apostolic Pentecostalism. . . . maybe.

Edited September 28, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Guest]

thanks.  it could also be something completely different.  just not sure what. 

 

I've been racking my brains to see if I could figure anything out.  Nope.  :0)  I'll be interested to know if you find out at some point.  

[EMS83]

I have a question.  I'm wondering if dudeling's ND is orthodox christian (just curiosity - I adore her.  she is so good.)

for dress/clothing -  uncut covered hair  (it is always wrapped in various fabrics- and it's clear she has a LOT of hair), long skirts.

Priests, she had one bless her new office and there was a cedar sprig above each? door.  (a lot of doors in the office.)

Could be Oriental Orthodox--Coptic, Armenian, Syrian, Indian.  

Also could be Orthodox Jewish.  Although I don't know if they would call a rabbi a priest?  I don't know much about their religious hierarchy.

Or Old Calendarist Orthodox; long story, but they tend to retain many more of the outward expressions of the faith from earlier times.

 

Or just a really pious EO.  Pick a card, any card, lol.  Sorry.

Edited September 28, 2016 by CES2005

[MercyA]

Other than this chart, which I saw more than ten years ago, I am unfamiliar with Rose Publishing.

 

We have Rose Publishing's fold-out Tabernacle booklet and love it. I have also seen the denominations comparison chart Patty Joanna mentioned and thought it seemed sound.

Edited September 28, 2016 by MercyA

[Bluegoat]

For kids looking at something visual might be nice.  There are some nice little introductions to Orthodox CHristianity on Youtube.

[milovany]

Good morning!  Patty Joanna will have a better, more lovely, answer for your children, but I think the best place on line for articles about Orthodox Christianity is at the Antiochian archdiocese's website:  Here.  This would be for you to get information to convey to your younger children, not necessarily for them to read themselves. 

 

From my own personal perspective, Orthodoxy is a life. Everything we do as we live this life God has given us is centered on the Church and its services/cycles. It's not an individual faith in the least; we live in community with those around us locally as well as with other Orthodox Christians around the world.  We do each individually seek God, of course, we each have to press in to the practice of our faith, but we're not deciding individually what the practice of our faith should look like.  We trust that the disciples and the early church fathers figured all that out hundreds/thousands of years ago and now we just live it.  

 

As an example of this, today is Wednesday so today we, the Church as a whole, fast to commemorate the betrayal of Christ before His crucifixion. Fasting, for all of us, means no animal products, no wine and no oil. While some individuals have a blessing for dairy or other such things due to health/age/etc, I know Orthodox Christians, myself included, ought not eat meat, cheese, or eggs, having a glass of wine or cooking in olive oil today.  We will all repeat this on Friday as we remember Christ's crucifixion.  (That's not meant to be self-congratulatory but instead just a description of what our faith is like).  I confess, it's nice to not have to figure these things out on my own, but to follow a well-established practice given us from the early church. It's also nice that my faith isn't something I mostly think about (believe), but it's something I do -- and the doing matters to my communion with God. 

 

I haven't posted on WTM for quite some time and don't want to overpost in this one instance so I'll leave my description at that for now, knowing Patty Joanna and others will give you more and better information. If you visit the above link, there's a section called "Introducing Orthodoxy" which might be a good place to start.  But the other sections address some of your specific topics/questions, too. 

Edited September 28, 2016 by milovany

[SarahW]

The BBC has a nice overview (I think this was developed as part of their A-Levels Religion exam helps?)

 

My kid likes documentaries, and here's a list for that.

 

Both links are open to be critiqued and commented upon.

[milovany]

The BBC has a nice overview (I think this was developed as part of their A-Levels Religion exam helps?)

 

My kid likes documentaries, and here's a list for that.

 

Both links are open to be critiqued and commented upon.

 

Very cool link for the movies/documentaries.  Thank you! 

 

A couple of quibbles about the BBC information: 

1) It says we use the same Bible as "most western churches."  Just to clarify, this would not mean protestant churches as they do not have the deuterocanonical books in their Bibles. Our Bible includes these books. A side note, some call these books "the apocrypha" (from a word that means lost/hidden), but we don't care for that term as if the books were at one time lost/hidden from us/our Bibles.  We never lost or hid them ;) -- they've always been there. 

 

2) It describes the unfortunate (my opinion) difference in old/new calendar usage, saying most patriarchates use the new calendar in our present age, but the article then goes on to say that Christmas is celebrated in the Orthodox Church on Jan. 7.  However, those who use the "new" (Gregorian) calendar celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25 while those on the old calendar celebrate it in January. 

 

Those things noted, I did think it was a very good article.  I like that it doesn't say that the Orthodox church "broke off from" the Roman Catholic Church at the Great schism, as if the RCC is the original church and we became a splinter group, which we do tend to see somewhat frequently.  As it more correctly describes, the two "sides" (east/west) of the church split away from each other because of changes in doctrine and practice that had developed in the west (perhaps my bias shows with that wording).  It was all one church in the beginning and then there was a split. 

 

Thank you again for sharing the links!

Edited September 28, 2016 by milovany

[luckymom]

Thank you for all of the information.  I will share it with my dc.

[Guest]

 

For our history lesson, we were just learning about the how the Roman Catholic Church developed in the West while the Orthodox Church developed in the East.

 

My dc would like to know more about the Orthodox Church - beliefs, rituals, traditions, requirements, saints, holidays, etc. Also, the doctrinal differences with other Christian churches.

 

PLEASE, I am not looking to start a theological debate.  I only want information to share with my dc as the lesson made them curious.

 

 

Dear Luckymom,

 

I delayed my response partly because I had other things to do, but partly to allow things to settle in my own mind.  Before I start my response, I want to make a couple of things clear. 

 

1.  I'm with you on not trying to start a theological debate.  My statements should be read (as they are in my mind) with "The EO Church teaches..." and where it is a matter of preference within EOxy, I'll note that.  I don’t intend to make comparisons with other churches' teachings...unless I specifically say so.  I also do not intend to say, “We do this, and no one else does.† I’m saying what we do.

 

2.  I'm going to make child-oriented statements; I’ll try to keep it low-level, but give a leeeetle bit more information than I think they might want.  Just in case they want it.  :0)  To do this, I am reflecting back in time 10 years to when my son was 10 and 11 and asking a lot of questions.  He was (and is) a bit of an outlier in some ways, so I may seriously miss the mark.  Please forgive me.

 

3.  The original question asks very broadly about wide and deep subjects.  I'll give each a brief shot (at least "brief for me"), but all have room for expansion.  Thousands of books and podcasts have done so.  Others will no doubt chime in.  And that's OK.   Depending on how the conversation goes, I might do it myself.  :0)

 

4.  I really appreciate what Milovany wrote above, about Orthodoxy being a life.  I won't repeat what she said.  Except this part:  this Exploring Orthodoxy Social Group is a good resource for drilling down.  Anyone on TWTM can read it, but one has to be a member of the social group to post questions.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/140-exploring-orthodox-christianity/

 

-----------------------------------------

 

Question 1:  How did the EOC develop?

You said "the children have learned how the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) expanded in the West, and want to know how the Eastern Orthodox Church expanded in the East."

 

The first thing to understand is that there was only one Church for pretty much the first 1000 years.  All that you read about for the first 1000 years (to put a finer point on it, the first 800), you pretty much have to apply to both RCC and EO as it was ONE Church.

 

Initially, the One Church had 5 "regions" (we call them "jurisdictions") with a bishop (pope) at the head of each; the bishops ruled as a council.  The regions were Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Antioch and Alexandria.  .  After the Great Schism (1054), the Roman jurisdiction became what we now call the Roman Catholic Church and as a result of the political and cultural influences, and the application of its beliefs, spread through the world as a single jurisdiction under the Pope.  This unity included unity of language (Latin) in church settings.

 

The other four jurisdictions continued to develop not only in the East but in the West as well, but instead of having one single person at the head of the Church, it continued with the tradition of each having a bishop at the head, and the bishops guiding the Church as a Council.  As with the RCC, the development of the EOC affected and was affected by the political and historical events of the time.  However, when the EOC developed and expanded, it adapted to the culture of the countries it was in. 

 

As the EOC became stable within a country, the EOC would establish a jurisdiction there, so now there are 13 or 14 jurisdictions, each with a bishop at the head, depending on who you talk to.  :0)  So now you have the EOC of Romania, of Bulgaria, of Crete, and so on. 

 

The liturgies were conducted in the language of the people – even resulting in the development of written language (the Cyrillic alphabet was created in this way, as have been many native languages).  The music adapted to the music of the people.  So, if you go to a church service in Russia, you will hear the words and music in Russian, in a 13-tone scale like what we are used to, but if you go to a Middle Eastern country, you will hear the words in Arabic – and the music will sound different because it is based in the 17-tone scale of the music of that region.  But the words will be the same words. The service will be almost identical in content and order.  The teaching of the Orthodox Church does not vary by country, but the expression does. 

 

As an aside, it might be interesting to note that in the USA, some EO will have services in Greek or Romanian or Russian, because our country was settled by immigrants, who brought their churches with them.  But the teaching is in unity, both in geography and over time. 

 

 

Question 2:  Beliefs.  Perhaps this is easier to think through if I make up some questions to respond to…

Who is God?  God is.  He is and always has been.  He is the creator of all that is, visible and invisible.  He exists in three persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.  They are one in essence and undivided, but different in person.  This is called the doctrine of the Trinity and if I were able to explain it completely, I would be much wiser than I am.  However, a way to explain it to children is the example of an egg:  there is a shell, a yolk, and a “whiteâ€.  All are egg, none of them in not egg, but they are different.  (Analogies always break down…but this is a start.)  Another (more mystical) way I have thought about it is using geometry terms:  a point is in 0 dimension, a line in 1 dimension, a plane in 2, and a cube in 3.  I am a one-dimensional person; God is three-dimensional.  I, as a line, can’t comprehend a cube…and so maybe that is how we are in understanding the three persons of God. 

 

The Nicene Creed is the shortest possible summary of what we believe.  You will note that we say that “the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.† Other churches add the phrase, “and the Son.† Here is a link to the Nicene Creed.  (it’s the part in italics – the rest is a little bit more explanation if the kiddos are interested.  https://oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith/doctrine-scripture/the-symbol-of-faith/nicene-creed

 

What is the nature of humanity and the relationship between God and mankind?  Humans are created without sin, but as a result of the fall, we have a propensity to sin.  (This is different teaching from many non-EO groups.)  Out of love, God created humans in His image and likeness, and said, “This is very good.† It is beyond the capability of man to change the essence of what God has made.  (Big word time:  EO does not teach “original sin,†but “ancestral sin†– we do not inherit Adam’s guilt, but we do inherit the consequence of sin – death.)  The consequences of our sin is not that we are bad people but that we are dead people.  “We are dead in our sins.† That’s what the Apostle Paul wrote, and that is what causes most of our problems.

 

Part of being made in the image and likeness of God is that we have free will.  True love requires free will; true love cannot be demanded, only given.  God freely loves us, and he gave us free will so we can love him, not be puppets, but Persons freely giving love.  However, we have this propensity toward sin, and we don’t always use our free will very well…that’s called “sin.† When we sin, we refuse the likeness of God…but we do not alter what God has made. 

God created us in love and He never stops loving us.  He has given us a way back from the dead, and a path to follow so that the image can be restored and the likeness reestablished.  Jesus Christ took on human flesh to show us that mortal flesh can indeed bear the weight and glory of bearing the image and being in the likeness of God.  Everything He touched, He redeemed.  From birth to death, in health and in suffering, in humiliation, in betrayal…and in death, all of this He touched and all of it He redeemed…made it matter and took away the permanent sting of it, and showed us a way through them all. 

 

The most important hymn of the Church year is very short:  Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life.  One of my favorite sentences to understand this is my signature line:  Christ didn’t come to make bad men good but to make dead men live. 

Children often wonder about heaven and hell.  EO teaches that God is everywhere, filling all things.  (This doesn’t mean that all things are God…this is NOT pantheism.)  God is closer to us than our breath, than the blood in our veins.  God fills heaven…and hell.  There is no getting away from God’s love.  However, we can refuse it.  That is hell.  CS Lewis did the best fictionalized image of this in The Last Battle, with the dwarves in the shed.   (Chronicles of Narnia.)  God doesn’t send anyone to hell.  People refuse God’s love, and send themselves there. 

 

 

Question 3:  Rituals and Traditions

EO rituals and traditions are generally part of the way of life that Milovany referred to, that way of life being the path we have to restore to our lives the image and likeness of God.  We have 12 main feasts in the year, and the Big One—Pascha (Easter)—which focus on the main events in the life of Christ.  We fast (basically, eat less and vegan and no wine or oil) for 6 weeks before Christmas (Advent – 6 weeks, not 4) in preparation for Christmas, and we fast 7 weeks before Pascha in a penitential fast.  There are other shorter fasts….  The festal year structures our lives and annually brings to mind how Christ Himself lived the image- and-likeness-bearing life. 

 

We also have the cycle of the week when we reflect on the saints, the angels, the betrayal (Wednesday, fasting) and crucifixion (Friday, fasting) of Christ, and the Resurrection.  Our main service on Sunday is called The Divine Liturgy (the RCC calls their service the Mass) where we hear the gospel proclaimed and partake of the Eucharist (Holy Communion). 

 

EOxy doesn’t focus so much on what you know as what you ARE that brings you close to God.  Right belief is important because TRUTH is important and because what we believe about God has a serious impact on how we relate to Him.  But we don’t focus on having to know a certain amount of doctrine in order to participate in the life of Christ.  Babies are baptized at 40 days, (converts after the priest says, OK), and then they are confirmed as members immediately, and they partake of the Eucharist at the very next offering.  Babies don’t know *anything* but they are closest to being sinless and that is more important than my ability to spout off on doctrine (with my selfish and prideful heart).  The parallel we sometimes draw is that we don’t require babies to know how to cook before we will feed them.  We feed them because we love them.  How can we do less in the Church?

 

Many EO saints (yes, we have living saints, as well as departed ones), advise that one pray more minutes in a day than one reads about theology.  That’s because we believe what we pray.  This links to an Orthodox Prayer Book (with descriptions, if that is of interest):  http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/

 

Orthodoxy  is very sensory:  We see and smell and taste and hear and feel as part of worship.  We see the icons (pictures of those who are our “cloud of witnessesâ€) all around us—and just like children, we kiss them, because we love them.  We light candles, as a reminder that Christ has driven away the darkness.  We smell the incense, reminding us that our prayers arise as incense, like the psalmist wrote, and that the prayers of the martyrs arise as incense, as is described in the NT.  We hear the Gospel as it is proclaimed in almost every service.  We hear the words of the psalms as the reader/cantor/choir read and sing them.  (About 80% of the Divine Liturgy is straight out of scripture.)  We taste how good the Lord is in the Eucharist – and visitors also receive blessed bread as a sign of hospitality.  We bow, we make the sign of the cross over ourselves, we stand up during worship (the traditional position of prayer) as we are able – but we sit down if we need to.  EOxy teaches that the body and the mind and the soul together make up one person, so what we do with our bodies matters as much as what we do with our minds and souls.  This has an impact also on our practices in life and in death. 

 

The EO love the scriptures.  We wrap the gospels in a golden or jeweled binding; we kiss the book – but most importantly, we adhere to the teachings and take them very seriously.  When Jesus said, “Take up your cross and follow me,†He meant it.  He meant we will have crosses and He meant that we are to carry them, not ditch them.  When He said, “If you love me, you will obey my commandments,†He meant it.  So we strive in our lives to obey His commandments.  In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, “When you pray…when you fast…when you give alms…† Not “if.† Prayer, fasting and almsgiving are core elements of daily EO life.   â€œThis is my body and my blood….† (John 6:52 and surrounding…)  The New Testament (and the Nicene Creed) say that there is one baptism for the remission of sins….and EO teaches that baptism remits sins.  We take the scriptures very seriously, and they structure our lives and our practice. 

 

The scriptures are important and we love them…but we do not worship them.  The scriptures are part of what we call Holy Tradition—a main part, and none of the other Holy Traditions can disagree with the scriptures—but the Scriptures are rightly taught by the Church (as the Church was the body which compiled them…), and it is up to me to learn what the Church teaches, not for me to teach the Church.  Other parts of Holy Tradition include the writings of the Church Fathers, iconography, hymnography, the Church canons (what the conciliar bishops have deemed as doctrine and practice for Orthodox Christians).  Think of it like this:  Tradition is a big circle, and inside that circle are other circles—the biggest one would be the scriptures, but there would be other circles for icons, hymns, and so on.  All of it comprises tradition.  Sometimes people think it is two circles:  tradition and the scriptures, but that is not what the EOC teaches. 

 

There are also what some call “little-t traditions†– these tend to be cultural in nature, and sometimes people squabble over them like they ARE big-T Tradition…but they are not.  For example:  some regions have a requirement for women to cover their heads during worship; others, 24/7; others not at all.  This is little-t.  Some have men and women stand on different sides of the sanctuary:  little-t.  And yes, there are some things that are gray areas.  Big-T Tradition is the Orthodox faith in God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 

 

It seems to me that I have already gone overboard, or completely missed the "kid" mark (I'm seriously out of date in that regard, at a personal level, but I am also astounded at the things our children learn in church school, so I don't want to miss the mark by under-answering).  Even with this long post, I have left out so much.  But this is what I can write at this time.  Again, there is more over at the social group.  And I (and others) will respond more if it is helpful. 

 

Kind regards,

Patty Joanna