The Self-Propelled Advantage

[caedmyn]

Has anyone incorporated ideas from this book into their homeschool? Would love to hear details of how it looks and how it's working for you. Would especially like to hear if anyone's tried with younger kids (like a 2nd grader) or kids with ADHD.

[maize]

Editing because I mis-remembered which book this is.

Edited September 23, 2016 by maize

[Angie in VA]

Editing because I mis-remembered which book this is.

 

 

I think that's another family the one that wrote The Brainy Bunch. The Cauldwells had many kids get very high scores on SAT and ACT tests and most got full rides to college. 

 

Our aim was independent learning and our first child did have high standardized test scores and did earn a very nice scholarship. We did not teach to any tests, however, and we did not set out to imitate the Self-Propelled Advantage. 

Edited September 23, 2016 by Angie in VA

[domestic_engineer]

I started reading the book ... but to me, it seemed like it was meant to be applied to older kids which wasn't my season of life then, so I stopped reading it in the middle.  So I'm not really any help, but maybe just commiserating that I couldn't figure out how to apply it to a 2nd grader.

[birchbark]

I read it a few years ago and applied most of it immediately to our school. It was a huge help for those tough boy-in-middle-school years. I also loved what the author had to say about mastery learning. It was the key that helped me make my curriculum a servant rather than a master.

 

I talk a bit about using student planners in this blog post. For younger students, I use My Student Logbook for a planner, which I fill out. 

[kolamum]

I read the book a few years back & enjoyed the perspective without doubt. Prior to her book coming out she was on one of those phone interviews & the podcast of that is available here. I think SWB has a lovely chat on the PHP website that actually discusses getting your children to independence in a more clear-cut precise manner to be honest.

 

Having said that I read the SPA book prior to hearing SWB chat & I appreciated both views. What I will say about SPA is this:

 

1. The author credits her learning style for her children's greatness, but in all fairness her teaching style came about out of sheer need. She was flat our on the sofa sick due to pregnancy while having little ones who NEEDED her & slightly older ones who NEEDED to do school. She simply told them what to do & off they went. Therefore, while I don't discredit her method I also think the children's abilities came about as a matter of survival. I don't mean that in the harsh way we often use survival, but rather they children knew the work was expected from them, did it, & were able to move on.

 

2. As a large family she has a no-nonsense approach to things, which isn't to say small families don't. Rather I think her family worked on a pretty good schedule & they were use to it. 

 

3. She's very very opinionated on a few topics including curriculum that will vs won't work. I totally disagree with her on this & my children are living proof of that. She also hits hard on parenting & "heart" issues which I equally disagree with. I do not deny that in many situations a trust issue can be a heart issue with a child, but having an SWC I disagree that every time my child digs a line in the sand that it is a heart issue.

 

4. There's a large portion of the book you'll likely feel you won't need if you've been homeschooling for more then a couple of years, if you've comfortable with your parenting style, & if you really just want to get to the crux of the idea/method. The book is a quick read, but I found some chapters an absolute drag, mainly those that discuss the issues I mentioned in #3.

 

Okay, so having said that.. 

 

There are aspects we use, but they are also natural things in our home. Some of which was inspired by the book, but much of which was all ready in place. For my SWC I found SWB chat much more effective.

 

We still use all the curriculum we would normally use, I did not suddenly drop all my curriculum & rush out to buy Abeka because SPA said it was the best approach. Nope, not at all. In fact, we still use literature rich curriculum & the child who uses it still works solo & loves it. What I will say, was that for cutting the final part of the apron strings it was encouraging & helpful.

I don't want to sound like I'm bashing the author & saying the book is lousy. It's NOT, I think if I'd read it years earlier I would have appreciated it's value even more. I think I read it when my eldest was in 6th or 7th & he was all ready working reasonably independently. Basically the idea for the author is that if your children can read they can teach themselves.

She does have her children do their own grading/correcting via answer keys. I do not. My eldest hates grading his own work. For one thing, if he does get the answer wrong, regardless of getting credit for reworking it he wants to be able to rework it to correct his mistake & seeing the answer means he doesn't get that chance. I also do NOT wait an entire semester before checking in on my kids work, that would drive ME batty having THAT much work piled up. On top of that, my high schooler would go crazy with that schedule too.

 

I think it's very easy to take the idea & use it wherever you are. :)

[shinyhappypeople]

What does SWC stand for?

 

ETA: Strong willed child?  Did I figure it out? 

Edited September 28, 2016 by shinyhappypeople

[SarahW]

Okay. so I started reading the sample on Google Books, and it seems that she's saying that she rejected the "classroom model" of education of "quizzing their little brains out" and replaced it with the ultimate goodness of completely independent learning?

 

That seems like a false dichotomy to me. I think I, and most of us on this forum, happily live between those two extremes.

 

As for ADHD - I don't know if being completely independent would work. Executive function deficits and all that. My DH is ADHD, an adult with a graduate degree, and he has all sorts of plans and ideas of things he wants to do, really really wants to do, desires to have, and all that. But without external structure or motivation he 99% of the time fails to start, or finish, what he desires.

 

ADHD people can, theoretically, create an external motivation for themselves and stick to it. But this usually needs to be taught to them, and even then it might not work.

 

For my son (who is likely ADHD like his dad) he does, actually, enjoy working with Latin and Greek. But he would never ever do them unless I opened up the books and put them in front of his nose. Part of it is maturity (he doesn't see how to figure out what he needs to do next, even if it is just the next page) and a part of it is that he needs me to control his impulses to do this, or that, or something else at that time.

 

I'll finish browsing the book, but maybe her kids are bright AND autodidacts? In that case, I guess her method would work great for them.

[birchbark]

Okay. so I started reading the sample on Google Books, and it seems that she's saying that she rejected the "classroom model" of education of "quizzing their little brains out" and replaced it with the ultimate goodness of completely independent learning?

 

There are a couple other principles she brings out in her book that she says separates her from the classroom model. One is the spirit of trust between teacher and student (not automatic, but something to work toward/earn), and the concept of mastering material before moving on. I personally suspect that the mastery principle is more the reason for her students' academic success than the fact they managed the execution of their schoolwork.

 

Warning to those who might read the book: her writing is not very linear and organized. I had to read through the book a couple times with a highlighter to pick out the key points. Veteran homeschoolers may get a little impatient with the large portions of the book which describe the benefits of home education and training kids in responsibility.

[SweetandSimple]

I personally suspect that the mastery principle is more the reason for her students' academic success than the fact they managed the execution of their schoolwork.

 

 

Yes! After I read her book, I spent awhile trying to figure out if it was the "mastery" or the "self-propelled" part of her plan that mattered most. I never decided for sure, but I do think that the mastery expectations are a big part of their success.

[kolamum]

What does SWC stand for?

 

ETA: Strong willed child?  Did I figure it out? 

 

Sorry, yes you did guess right! :D

 

 

Okay. so I started reading the sample on Google Books, and it seems that she's saying that she rejected the "classroom model" of education of "quizzing their little brains out" and replaced it with the ultimate goodness of completely independent learning?

 

I think some of her reasonings were a little skewed. She was a classroom teacher, but her choice in raising independent learners was not an intentional choice. It came about because she was so sick during a pregnancy. She handed them the work, they did it. I dont' deny her great credit in her role as a homeschool Mamma, but I think her children's desire to learn played a huge huge roll in it too. :)

 

 

Yes! After I read her book, I spent awhile trying to figure out if it was the "mastery" or the "self-propelled" part of her plan that mattered most. I never decided for sure, but I do think that the mastery expectations are a big part of their success.

 

I think you're spot on, fwiw. There was certainly more to the picture then was portrayed in the book, as I'm sure is the case for most authors. Having said that, aside from the one child who took a while to learn to read, she didn't have to deal with children who had issues {at least not in the edition I read} & I think if she had it may have altered, to some degree, how she did things. Just my .02. While I did read the book & I did appreciate it, having children with diagnosed learning disabilities it did overwhelm me, especially when she mentioned how horrified she was that anyone would be sitting with a 4th grader while they did math. Mm, okay then.

 

I found SWB discussion {MP3 in the shop} more down to earth for guiding step by step on how to get there without the parental lecture involved. Plus, I enjoyed the huge chuckled about the child who spent the entire day watching the dogs. It reminded me of the time I was nursing my MIL back from a broken hip. She was on some pretty strong medication, needed daily injections for blood clots, etc. I had to run out & pick up more tea {if we had less then 20 tea bags in the house she considered it a tea emergency} & left the kids with her. I suggested they pick a show to watch with Nana or something simple & to keep an eye on her lest she should need any help.

 

I came home to a fully typed report on every action the children's Nana took while I was away. Every snort, every snore, every twitch.. They'd pulled out an old typewriter so they could sit right there & gawk at her while they typed. There was even a line in their report in which they informed her they were watching her sleep & she told them to stop being so cheeky. :lol: I still have that silly report somewhere because it was just so darned funny!

[SarahW]

Sorry, yes you did guess right! :D

 

 

 

I think some of her reasonings were a little skewed. She was a classroom teacher, but her choice in raising independent learners was not an intentional choice. It came about because she was so sick during a pregnancy. She handed them the work, they did it. I dont' deny her great credit in her role as a homeschool Mamma, but I think her children's desire to learn played a huge huge roll in it too. :)

 

 

 

I think you're spot on, fwiw. There was certainly more to the picture then was portrayed in the book, as I'm sure is the case for most authors. Having said that, aside from the one child who took a while to learn to read, she didn't have to deal with children who had issues {at least not in the edition I read} & I think if she had it may have altered, to some degree, how she did things. Just my .02. While I did read the book & I did appreciate it, having children with diagnosed learning disabilities it did overwhelm me, especially when she mentioned how horrified she was that anyone would be sitting with a 4th grader while they did math. Mm, okay then.

 

I found SWB discussion {MP3 in the shop} more down to earth for guiding step by step on how to get there without the parental lecture involved. Plus, I enjoyed the huge chuckled about the child who spent the entire day watching the dogs. It reminded me of the time I was nursing my MIL back from a broken hip. She was on some pretty strong medication, needed daily injections for blood clots, etc. I had to run out & pick up more tea {if we had less then 20 tea bags in the house she considered it a tea emergency} & left the kids with her. I suggested they pick a show to watch with Nana or something simple & to keep an eye on her lest she should need any help.

 

I came home to a fully typed report on every action the children's Nana took while I was away. Every snort, every snore, every twitch.. They'd pulled out an old typewriter so they could sit right there & gawk at her while they typed. There was even a line in their report in which they informed her they were watching her sleep & she told them to stop being so cheeky. :lol: I still have that silly report somewhere because it was just so darned funny!

 

Yeah, I got a bit further in the sample and read that she was a school teacher. Okay, homeschooling works differently, I guess that was a newsflash to her? I stopped reading after she mocked the 180 hours = 1 credit rule. I know the high school board has had numerous discussions about hours vs. mastery, so yeah, but her whole attitude was just so.....immature.

 

She did have a line in there along the lines of curriculum being something you use, not your master. I think my "Curriculum is a tool, not a tyrant" to be a better turn of phrase, but it's the same idea. So she and I agree there. But the smirking disdain attitude towards "the classroom" was off-putting. And I have a fundamental disagreement with the "Good children teach themselves!!" line anyways.... 

 

Maybe I should thumb through the sample again... Does she anywhere get into dealing with a child who resists the struggle to learn something new? I think that's what I'm looking for right now...

[kolamum]

Yeah, I got a bit further in the sample and read that she was a school teacher. Okay, homeschooling works differently, I guess that was a newsflash to her? I stopped reading after she mocked the 180 hours = 1 credit rule. I know the high school board has had numerous discussions about hours vs. mastery, so yeah, but her whole attitude was just so.....immature.

 

She did have a line in there along the lines of curriculum being something you use, not your master. I think my "Curriculum is a tool, not a tyrant" to be a better turn of phrase, but it's the same idea. So she and I agree there. But the smirking disdain attitude towards "the classroom" was off-putting. And I have a fundamental disagreement with the "Good children teach themselves!!" line anyways.... 

 

Maybe I should thumb through the sample again... Does she anywhere get into dealing with a child who resists the struggle to learn something new? I think that's what I'm looking for right now...

 

I think her biggest suggestion would be "Biblical Discipline" whatever that may mean for her family. She never disclosed other then to say "disciplined" or "dealt with." For her, a non compliant child has heart issues & I think she'd relate a child who's not interested in learning would have a heart issue. By heart issue, I'm speaking of the typical phrase used by many people who feel a child's heart is not right with God & therefore their child acts out.

 

I deeply disagree with this, & thanks to this type of misguided parenting advice I think many parents {myself included for a while} have very strained relationships with children who are just misunderstood in various ways. I really struggled with many chapters of this book because I do not agree with much of the author's stance & was looking for help in getting my children working solo.

 

A few things I think the author fails to acknowledge is that learning disabilities can often be at the heart of problems. This was very much the issue in our home & once my children got the diagnosis of visual perception disorder & got ourselves hooked up with a specialist to help them the leap from dependent to independent happened very quickly. 

 

If I remember correctly the author speaks about the second thing that holds people back from dependent to independent learning & that is often Mamma letting go. It is HARD when you're use to children needing you for everything. I still get nerdy about moving off & doing anything for fear I'll get involved & they'll shout out for help. Lame, yes, but I'm just being honest.

 

I also think maturity can be a huge deal. I know what worked for her, in her home, but she does confess, down the line, that one of her children was not at all interested in going to university. It took much chatting & finally finding a school that would allow him to play hockey {if I remember correctly} to get him interested in going. 

 

She did not, however, mention any shortcomings or stumbles that may have been experienced along the way except for a few times when a child didn't complete work, but that was about the extent of it. From personal experience I kinda raise eyebrows about that. It didn't happen overnight in our home, but perhaps it did in her own I dunno.

 

What I will say is that in our own home we worked with just 1 or 2 subjects & they checked back in, then we added more & again until they were off running. I have one right now I'm working with who isn't that keen about learning. In general, he doesn't aspire to spend his day learning, or reading books, or doing things that go against his grand plans for the day. 

 

He's old enough to accept that in life you have obligations & they must be met. So we're in the stage of just a few subjects he does on his own & then checks in with me. I've also added a lot of hands on aspects to his schooling this year, but even still I have to be aware & remind him to just keep moving forward.

 

The author of the SPA book doesn't address this, but SWB does in her MP3 Chat. :)

[SarahW]

Thanks, kolamom, that was helpful.

 

My last bit on my pp was largely just me hand-wringing. Almost 10, accelerated (in some things), maybe gifted, maybe ADHD. We keep plugging away, but half the time I feel like I am holding him back, and the other half he complains about me expecting too much. Perfectionism, wants things to come easy, and so on - trying to nip it in the bud. I'd feel better if he showed a bit more initiative about the things he likes. But inititative and ADHD don't go together very well. Sigh.

 

It's been a while since I read a "popular"/mass-market homeschooling book. Being on these forums, I forget that some things that are largely discredited among us here are still being published, kwim? The heart-issue topic and so on, nope. I try for the huge wall of separation between academics and parenting/spiritual upbringing. Maybe because I grew up on homeschooling where the two were mixed too much. I expect a respectful attitude during lessons, and trustworthiness during independent work (the small amount that we do), but that's about it.

 

I read the rest of what Google would give me. Yeah, idk, for having once been a certified teacher she sometimes says things that are rather, to be blunt, stupid. Like, she says she gave her kids the 1970's CAT(?) and was so pleased and proud that he kids scored "12th grade" level on lots of things. That her kids were reading like college freshman. Huh? That test is not an open-ended test, and she doesn't say she ordered an out-of-level score report. That's not what those numbers mean. And then when discussing her son's 35 on the ACT she mentions how amazed she is that he scored high on biology and chemistry, even though he didn't take those classes yet. What? I was confused whether she was still talking about the ACT here, because the ACT doesn't really test science knowledge. Does she not know that? And then the part where she's worrying about doing high school biology and she's advised by another homeschool mom to "just give the kid a textbook" and that's it. That's a huge nope in my book, but even still, high school biology labs aren't that hard to set up and do (though I understand being hesitant to do a dissection in the kitchen). And did she tell the colleges her kids went to that their high school science credits did NOT include labs?  :confused1:

 

I realize that even though she has 10 kids it's not a large sample size, and some of her kids are still small, yes? But I was also suspicious of how her kids ACT/SAT scores fell. Sure her daughter was "not mathy" and her other kid was gifted at sports instead, and so on. But the bald fact is that her oldest who got the brunt of her "quiz their little brains out" method is the one who got the highest score, and the ones who came after her conversion to independent learning got lower scores. I don't see this as a ringing endoresment for her method.

 

Maybe other parts of the books are helpful. But I was left going huh? what? WHAT?  :huh:

[eternalsummer]

I thought I read somewhere that the best way to promote retention of information was to quiz about it immediately and frequently - that it was the process of recovering the information that cemented the pathway, or something.

[Guest]

I thought I read somewhere that the best way to promote retention of information was to quiz about it immediately and frequently - that it was the process of recovering the information that cemented the pathway, or something.

 

According to the book about language acquisition, Fluent Forever, right now the thinking is that the best timing to remember something new is to come very close to forgetting it, and then remember it again.

 

That is the basis of the Anki flashcard system, too.

[AMJ]

Sorry, yes you did guess right! :D

 

 

 

I think some of her reasonings were a little skewed. She was a classroom teacher, but her choice in raising independent learners was not an intentional choice. It came about because she was so sick during a pregnancy. She handed them the work, they did it. I dont' deny her great credit in her role as a homeschool Mamma, but I think her children's desire to learn played a huge huge roll in it too. :)

 

 

 

I think you're spot on, fwiw. There was certainly more to the picture then was portrayed in the book, as I'm sure is the case for most authors. Having said that, aside from the one child who took a while to learn to read, she didn't have to deal with children who had issues {at least not in the edition I read} & I think if she had it may have altered, to some degree, how she did things. Just my .02. While I did read the book & I did appreciate it, having children with diagnosed learning disabilities it did overwhelm me, especially when she mentioned how horrified she was that anyone would be sitting with a 4th grader while they did math. Mm, okay then.

 

I found SWB discussion {MP3 in the shop} more down to earth for guiding step by step on how to get there without the parental lecture involved. Plus, I enjoyed the huge chuckled about the child who spent the entire day watching the dogs. It reminded me of the time I was nursing my MIL back from a broken hip. She was on some pretty strong medication, needed daily injections for blood clots, etc. I had to run out & pick up more tea {if we had less then 20 tea bags in the house she considered it a tea emergency} & left the kids with her. I suggested they pick a show to watch with Nana or something simple & to keep an eye on her lest she should need any help.

 

I came home to a fully typed report on every action the children's Nana took while I was away. Every snort, every snore, every twitch.. They'd pulled out an old typewriter so they could sit right there & gawk at her while they typed. There was even a line in their report in which they informed her they were watching her sleep & she told them to stop being so cheeky. :lol: I still have that silly report somewhere because it was just so darned funny!

 

 

 

Keep that report!  Also consider scanning it into the computer (if it's not already there) and keeping digital copies squirreled away.  That just makes too good of ammo for the future, especially when your kids have kids.   :laugh:

[AMJ]

I thought I read somewhere that the best way to promote retention of information was to quiz about it immediately and frequently - that it was the process of recovering the information that cemented the pathway, or something.

 

 

This will not work with kids who have slow processing speed.  My DD has a very slow processing speed (diagnosed by a neuropsych) and cannot answer questions asked about stuff immediately learned unless she has stuff in front of her to prompt her.  When she was in brick & mortar school pop quizzes were her nightmare and major class downfall.  

 

My DD simply needs more than 5 minutes for her brain to file new information for retrieval.  Ask her about something within a few minutes of learning it and she will be dumbfounded.  Ask her 30 minutes later (whether you stay on topic or switch to something else entirely) and she's got it, often with little details you didn't notice the first time.

[kolamum]

Thanks, kolamom, that was helpful.

 

My last bit on my pp was largely just me hand-wringing. Almost 10, accelerated (in some things), maybe gifted, maybe ADHD. We keep plugging away, but half the time I feel like I am holding him back, and the other half he complains about me expecting too much. Perfectionism, wants things to come easy, and so on - trying to nip it in the bud. I'd feel better if he showed a bit more initiative about the things he likes. But inititative and ADHD don't go together very well. Sigh.

 

It's been a while since I read a "popular"/mass-market homeschooling book. Being on these forums, I forget that some things that are largely discredited among us here are still being published, kwim? The heart-issue topic and so on, nope. I try for the huge wall of separation between academics and parenting/spiritual upbringing. Maybe because I grew up on homeschooling where the two were mixed too much. I expect a respectful attitude during lessons, and trustworthiness during independent work (the small amount that we do), but that's about it.

 

I read the rest of what Google would give me. Yeah, idk, for having once been a certified teacher she sometimes says things that are rather, to be blunt, stupid. Like, she says she gave her kids the 1970's CAT(?) and was so pleased and proud that he kids scored "12th grade" level on lots of things. That her kids were reading like college freshman. Huh? That test is not an open-ended test, and she doesn't say she ordered an out-of-level score report. That's not what those numbers mean. And then when discussing her son's 35 on the ACT she mentions how amazed she is that he scored high on biology and chemistry, even though he didn't take those classes yet. What? I was confused whether she was still talking about the ACT here, because the ACT doesn't really test science knowledge. Does she not know that? And then the part where she's worrying about doing high school biology and she's advised by another homeschool mom to "just give the kid a textbook" and that's it. That's a huge nope in my book, but even still, high school biology labs aren't that hard to set up and do (though I understand being hesitant to do a dissection in the kitchen). And did she tell the colleges her kids went to that their high school science credits did NOT include labs?  :confused1:

 

I realize that even though she has 10 kids it's not a large sample size, and some of her kids are still small, yes? But I was also suspicious of how her kids ACT/SAT scores fell. Sure her daughter was "not mathy" and her other kid was gifted at sports instead, and so on. But the bald fact is that her oldest who got the brunt of her "quiz their little brains out" method is the one who got the highest score, and the ones who came after her conversion to independent learning got lower scores. I don't see this as a ringing endoresment for her method.

 

Maybe other parts of the books are helpful. But I was left going huh? what? WHAT?  :huh:

 

Interesting on the testing info. I'm not at all familiar with any tests & what they mean or show value in. Where we live {not USA} right now testing is not required. In fact, there is no annual testing to be offered. So the only testing we do are things like science quizzes, math tests, science chapter tests, etc. ;)

 

At the very end of the book there is a small chapter about her children's opinions on the method. I can't remember the ages of the children, but I will say that the olders are old enough that the regulations of her state may have been different at the time & not required labs.

 

I think she had a few left that were school age, but I'm honestly not sure & I'd have to dig my book out. She has a FB page & website you might be able to garner information from there if you were keen. 

 

Like you I don't find most homeschool books very informational these days, in fact one of the things I check before even considering a book are the ages of the children. I just don't need help for children in preschool or younger grades so while I don't begrudge the authors I'm also not interested & don't get some of the hype. I chose SPA because I was looking for any help in getting my kids independent. The biggest help I had, though, was getting their diagnoses & medical helps. It's amazing what can happen when they can actually see clearly! ;)

 

The chapter about how the author has her children work independently was pretty interesting, for me, but there were areas that I didn't like. For instance, I found it crazy that some of the olders were responsible for being sure work got done while she was out of the home. I get being responsible for their own work & helping around the home, but I thought they were also responsible for the littles as well in regards to their work. I may have misunderstood or be remembering poorly so I may be off on some of that.

 

Either way, what she did worked for them which is fantastic! Like everything, I took it with a grain of salt & applied what fragments would work in our own home. I've really appreciated hearing others take on the book & their reasonings behind their views. :)

 

If you're interested you can listen to her sum up the book in a Podcast over on Homeschool.com  The chat was live, but clearly done prior to the publication of her book. I say "clearly" because having read the book prior to hearing the chat there were a few things that were said that made me realise the chat happened prior to publication.