When kids think learning is useless

[chilliepepper]

I'm sure this has been discussed here before, but I'm not sure what to search for.

 

My boys have entered a phase of questioning the "why" of everything we do academically. They both think they are going to be music producers when they grow up, so they won't need math, grammar, writing etc. They don't question history or science as much, I think because they don't hate those subjects as much.

 

I'm not discouraging them from pursuing their dreams, but how do I effectively convey to them that a well-rounded education is useful for more than just your future career? And that they might need math and writing more than they currently think, regardless of what career they pursue?

 

If anybody can point me to previously posted relevant threads, great. Or, discuss here. Thanks!

[Elizabeth 2]

https://online.berklee.edu/courses/creative-music-production-skills

 

The skills listed in this course include budgeting and professional communication.  

 

The basic skills listed here include a bachelor's in music production.

 

http://study.com/articles/Music_Producer_Job_Summary_and_Educational_Requirements_for_a_Career_in_Music_Production.html

 

Or, have them call a studio and ask what they require for music producers to have as far as education. Reality is an amazing wake up call to motivation.  

 

Have them do the research and put it under career/college readiness on the transcript! ;)

Edited September 19, 2016 by Elizabeth 2

[Garga]

I wrote this a few years ago when my kids were fighting with me about grammar. https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/redneck-yokels-grammar-in-real-life-and-dead-groundhog-walking/

 

It rambles a bit...stick it out to the end.

 

ETA: found another one about the Grammar Wars: https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/a-compliment-from-an-astonished-woman-and-when-will-i-use-this-in-real-life/

Edited September 19, 2016 by Garga

[mathnerd]

They both think they are going to be music producers when they grow up, so they won't need math, grammar, writing etc. 

My nephew is trying to be a music producer - he is an Electrical Engineer with a "Sound Engineer" certification. He says that he needs a lot of knowledge of math and physics to learn how the equipments work. 

 

If your sons want to be music producers who own large recording companies and pick talent to sign on to their recording label - then, please let them know that most of those people have MBAs and that requires many years of school work :)

[SparklyUnicorn]

When all else fails I tell my kids I am required by laws and regulations to cover it.  I blame the regs.  I don't feel as if these skills are useless, but I think it is difficult for kids to imagine what good this stuff is for a point in time that seems so far away to them.

 

 

[MerryAtHope]

I wrote this a few years ago when my kids were fighting with me about grammar. https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/redneck-yokels-grammar-in-real-life-and-dead-groundhog-walking/

 

It rambles a bit...stick it out to the end.

 

LOL, love this! We moved from major city suburbs with horrible rush-hour traffic to a small town. If there is more than one or two cars in front of me when I get to a 4-way stop, that's traffic. 

[Lori D.]

I know others will have some super answers here about the uplifting aspects of education. My answer will be a bit of a tangent to your question, and very pragmatic. ;)

 

You didn't mention their ages, but it is very common for students between grades 3-7 to ask these questions -- usually because they have mastered the foundational skills of learning to read, basic sentence writing, and the 4 math functions of add/subtract/multiply/divide. In their minds, what else is there to learn, or why would you need/want to learn more?  :tongue_smilie:

 

And while it's good to discuss those noble truths of the benefits of education, sometimes, esp. boys (ahem... not naming any names here, but thinking of *2 specific boys I raised* -- lol) are not asking "why" because they give a hoot about those noble truths or will be swayed by them. What they *really* are asking is:

- "how much longer do I have to do Math (or Grammar or Writing) today" -- or --

- "is there a more interesting way or a different program to better fit my individual learning style for Math (or Grammar or Writing)" -- or --

- "I need to speed up (or slow down) the Math (or Grammar or Writing because I'm not being challenged (or I'm not getting this concept)" -- or --

- "this 'why' question is really just subtle griping because I'm in a 'mood' or 'a phase' and I need an attitude check" ;)

 

I would try probing a bit to find out what was prompting their "why" question, and if their questioning (or whining ;) ) was *really* about one of those things I just listed above, we'd work to make any needed adjustments. Or have a talk about attitude and teamwork. ;)

 

But I would also stop and take a moment to think through our overall days/weeks  to see if we had balance:

- do we have enough outside activities?

- do we have enough time to daily support a personal interest subject (music, art, electronics, cooking, etc.)

- dowe have enough daily time for personal passions? -- or "downtime" to recover from doing everything?

- do we need to include or sometimes substitute some fun supplements to our spines to make school more interesting?

- would outsourcing something be helpful or interesting?

 

My boys have always been very direct thinkers, and esp. in the "Logic stage" years, seeing the steps to the end goal helped them see there is a "point" to the school, even if they didn't care for the school subjects. Unfortunately, at that age, abstract ideals about how education is enriching or ennobling to their personhood would have fallen on deaf ears -- even though they were asking "why", what they really wanted to "hear" as the answer was "just the facts ma'am." ;)

 

Perhaps sitting down with your boys and walking through the long-term big picture of the specific education they need to get to the goal of the job of Music Producer (or most jobs!) might help? Here is just one way of walking through it:

 

Learning Math, Writing, and Grammar (along with Literature, Science, History, Geography, etc.) are the "required hoops" everyone must jump through in order to get the job they want. See this link for more about what is required to specifically become a Music Producer, the pay, the future outlook for # of jobs, the duties of the job, etc.

 

Note particularly that a college degree is one of the "required hoops" that must be jumped through by the person who wishes to become a Music Producer. Here is the path for becoming a Music Producer -- or any job that requires a college degree:

 

1. Basic requirement for music producer ---> Bachelor's degree

 

2. To get a Bachelor's degree ---> must go to college

 

3. To get into college ---> must meet specific college admission (entrance) requirements

a. complete a specific list of courses taken in high school *

b. earn a minimum score on the ACT or SAT test **

 

4. To complete those high school courses required for college admissions AND be prepared for the ACT or SAT test---> must take required courses in high school

 

5. To be able to take those required high school courses  ---> must take elementary & middle school classes in Math, Writing, Grammar, etc. which lay the foundations for the high school courses

 

* = requirements for college admission to most colleges:

4 credits = English (a mix of Writing, Grammar, Literature)

3-4 credits = Math (Algebra 1, Geometry, Algebra 2; many colleges also require a 4th Math credit with Algebra 2 as a pre-requisite)

3-4 credits = Science (with labs) (some colleges require Biology and Chemistry)

2-4 credits = Social Science (most colleges require 1 credit = Amer. Hist.; some also require World Hist. or Geog. or 0.5 credit each of Gov't & Econ required)

2-4 credits = Foreign Language (same language)

1 credit = Fine Arts (either performance or creation of Fine Arts, OR Fine Arts appreciation/history)

4-8+ credits = Electives (for Music Producers, these would be useful electives: Computer, Business, Accounting, Marketing, Music Performance, Music History, Ear Training, Songwriting, Sound Engineering or Technology)

22-28+ = total credits (5-7 credits per year of high school; 1 credit = 1 year of a high school class)

 

** = Minimum score on the ACT or SAT test is also required for entrance to colleges. The ACT and SAT are national tests which measure your knowledge and skills in high school levels of Math, Critical Reading (Grammar), and Writing. In order to meet the minimum scores in these areas, students need to have taken and passed the high school levels of English, Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2.

 

The more competitive/selective the college is that you want to go to, the higher your score must be to stand a chance of being accepted. Also, the higher your test score is, the more likely you are to be awarded a scholarship, which helps you pay for college.

 

 

BEST of luck as you walk through this (trying ;) ) stage with your students! :) Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited September 19, 2016 by Lori D.

[Miss Tick]

I wrote this a few years ago when my kids were fighting with me about grammar. https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/redneck-yokels-grammar-in-real-life-and-dead-groundhog-walking/

 

It rambles a bit...stick it out to the end.

 

ETA: found another one about the Grammar Wars: https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/a-compliment-from-an-astonished-woman-and-when-will-i-use-this-in-real-life/

Garga, I can't find a button to "like with an exclamation point!" but my loling gave me a chance to read it out loud to my unenthusiastic grammar-learner.

 

OP, good luck.

[lisabees]

I wrote this a few years ago when my kids were fighting with me about grammar. https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/redneck-yokels-grammar-in-real-life-and-dead-groundhog-walking/

 

It rambles a bit...stick it out to the end.

 

ETA: found another one about the Grammar Wars: https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/a-compliment-from-an-astonished-woman-and-when-will-i-use-this-in-real-life/

 

Awesome.

[Lynn in Caribbean]

My son had this attitude from puberty on....high school was me pushing and prodding him to get the basics done.

 

He did not have the transcript or test scores to get into university.  So he went to community college, then transferred.   (Not that this is a bad thing - can be a positive thing all the way around, but depends on the cc.)     

 

When he got to university, and realized how much he loved it there - loved the atmosphere, the clubs, the cool classes, watching the football games - he said "I wish I could have been here from the beginning of college, instead of going to community college first."

 

So, too late at that point for him to go back and fix middle school and high school.  He finally "got it" - way too late.   So, see, I'm no help to you.  :) 

 

On the other hand, my 7th grade dd, who wants to be a vet, is already working hard at all of her studies.  She understands the long road ahead, and is already planning and preparing.

 

I like Lori D's list above - walking them through this list, working backwards from the end goal, is a great idea.  I did this, countless times, but somehow this just never worked with my son.  Even though I set the facts in front of him, he could not see past the end of his nose.  Planning and working towards a long-term goal requires maturity.   Until the maturity kicks in, the reason for doing school is "because it's the law."  :)

 

[Tess in the Burbs]

My son just needed to know by law he was required to learn a certain amount of knowledge. No one gets an exception. He is almost 15 and stopped asking why. Finally. He still doesn't love school. I did scale his learning to the basics for awhile.

[Sahamamama]

I wrote this a few years ago when my kids were fighting with me about grammar. https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/redneck-yokels-grammar-in-real-life-and-dead-groundhog-walking/

 

It rambles a bit...stick it out to the end.

 

ETA: found another one about the Grammar Wars: https://dustylizard.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/a-compliment-from-an-astonished-woman-and-when-will-i-use-this-in-real-life/

 

I highly recommend Garga's blog posts, but warn you to swallow your coffee before you read them. ;)

 

[chilliepepper]

Thanks, everybody, for your input. These are some good ideas. I did want to clarify a bit, though, after interviewing one of my sons in a bit more depth about what he means by "music producer."

 

When they say "music producer," it's about the equivalent of us telling our parents 30 years ago that we were going to be rock stars or rappers when we grew up. What my kid really wants is to be an "EDM Artist;" one of these guys who creates music on a Digital Audio Workstation (note they do not actually play instruments), and then gets really famous and goes and "performs" this music (i.e. pushes buttons on electronic equipment) on a stage with million dollar special effects in front of thousands of drooling fans who pay so much money to see his performances that he doesn't need a budget or proper grammar or any of that boring stuff.

 

So maybe a better way to ask the question is "what do I say to my kid who thinks he's going to be a rock star when he grows up?"

 

(And I know, it's the whole lecture about the actual odds of him succeeding on that path to an extent that he can even buy himself a bag of beans...but predictably, lectures and reasoning don't get me very far with these guys.)

[Arcadia]

So maybe a better way to ask the question is "what do I say to my kid who thinks he's going to be a rock star when he grows up?"

You need to know enough English and law to understand contract documents so you do not get swindled by your agent. You need to know enough math to not be swindled of your money by your accountant :lol:

 

Maybe get him to read the IRS documents on how to file tax returns as a self employed.

 

Since he likes EDM, tell him to look at the bios of Animusic founder and Blue Man Group's founders

Blue Man Group three founders are college grads. Animusic founder completed graduate work at Cornell University's Program of Computer Graphics in 1988

"The Blue Man Group was conceived and developed by Matt Goldman, Phil Stanton, and Chris Wink. Goldman and Wink, who had been friends since junior high school, met Stanton after graduating from college. Before forming the Blue Man Group, Goldman earned an MBA degree and worked as a software producer. Stanton was an actor and drummer, and Wink made a living summarizing articles for a Japanese magazine and serving food for a catering company."http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3496200011.html

http://www.animusic.com/company/wayne-lytle.php

[Dmmetler]

Getting into the field and talking to people trying to make a living at it helps a lot. Discovering that street performers in New Orleans often had Jazz Studies degrees from some pretty high powered schools as a teen didn't make me decide not to become a performer, but it made me aware that playing Lafayette Square for tips was probably more likely than playing Carnegie Hall. And it definitely made the idea of getting the college degree more palatable, because even I had to admit that I wasn't that good...yet!

 

One of the best parts about DD's pre-baccalaureate program is that she's kind of picking up the realities of her desired path by osmosis. It is much, much easier to teach a kid to write who sees how much of her desired job involves writing and communicating than one who just feels it's a waste of time.

[fairy4tmama]

Great post Garga! And thanks for the heads up Sahamamama; I was drinking coffee and it could have been disastrous!

 

OP no real advice for you as I am right there with you with my oldest. I think there is some real wisdom in this thread but I will admit that I tend to fall back on legal requirements- you can learn at home or at school but there are certain things that society says are non negotiable. (full disclosure my oldest elected to try charter school this year)

 

 

Edited September 23, 2016 by fairy4tmama

[shinyhappypeople]

Thanks, everybody, for your input. These are some good ideas. I did want to clarify a bit, though, after interviewing one of my sons in a bit more depth about what he means by "music producer."

 

When they say "music producer," it's about the equivalent of us telling our parents 30 years ago that we were going to be rock stars or rappers when we grew up. What my kid really wants is to be an "EDM Artist;" one of these guys who creates music on a Digital Audio Workstation (note they do not actually play instruments), and then gets really famous and goes and "performs" this music (i.e. pushes buttons on electronic equipment) on a stage with million dollar special effects in front of thousands of drooling fans who pay so much money to see his performances that he doesn't need a budget or proper grammar or any of that boring stuff.

 

So maybe a better way to ask the question is "what do I say to my kid who thinks he's going to be a rock star when he grows up?"

 

(And I know, it's the whole lecture about the actual odds of him succeeding on that path to an extent that he can even buy himself a bag of beans...but predictably, lectures and reasoning don't get me very far with these guys.)

 

How old are your sons?  They really, really need to talk with some professional musicians for a gentle wake-up call. 

 

Besides, at the very least, they're getting the high school diploma right?  Well, you need English and math credits for that, so suck it up, kiddos.  I don't mean that quite as mean as it sounds, but...yeah.  Sometimes in life we have to do things we don't like in order to get to the next step.  C'est la vie.

 

I actually know a very talented working musician, been in the business almost 30 years, peaked early, enjoyed some success and then faded away.  Anyway, he'd dropped out of high school to play music and now, at almost 50 years old, is sort of able to support himself between his p/t janitor job and music gigs.  He's a great guy, but I think he'd prefer the options that a high school diploma would have given him.  At the very least his day job could be something better-paying and more satisfying.  

 

Graduate from high school (at least!!) or get some post-high school training (even better!) so the day job that you WILL have for years while you work to make it big doesn't totally suck.

[Momto6inIN]

No words of wisdom, just ...

welcome to the logic stage! :lol:

[Reefgazer]

Yeah, I take a much more basic approach to "Why do I need to learn grammar?"  "So you don't sound like an uneducated oaf when you write something down, Son."

[LMD]

No words of wisdom, just ...

welcome to the logic stage! :lol:

Yep, the 'what's the point of learning this?' questions are annoying. They don't want a real answer, they just want to gripe because thinking is hard. Boo-freaking-hoo. I'm mean.

 

I actually do give answers, and I get eye rolls in return.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Me too.

 

I also go for the 'because it's the law. You can do it here, or at school, but there is no legal third choice.'

 

I spent a long time trying to find answers that awoke his love of academic learning, and failed...

 

Homeschool right now looks like me physically dragging ds through every single school thing we do. It's not pretty. I am glad to have the law on my side!

 

Well and to get real they may in fact never use the information.  Like math.  I don't care what anyone says, there are a lot of math concepts we never ever never use and never will unless we happen to be doing a job that needs it.  With that stuff I try to emphasize preparing them for having options so if they want to study engineering or whatever. 

 

I'm still waiting to understand the uses of some of the stuff I learned in school.  I guess what I'm using it for now is to homeschool my own kids!  But if I had continued working in the field I left many years ago I wouldn't have used any of it ever.  Never ever never.

[bolt.]

I think I'm a bit hard nosed, but when my DD wanted to be a scuba diver, I told her that's a hobby, not a job. Plus, it's an expensive hobby, so you'll need a good job with a nice amount of vacation time and disposable income. She believed me, and is now thinking about becoming a dentist.

 

If she didn't believe me, and carried on believing that she could 'be' a scuba diver as an adult -- I think I would have probably told her that I recognized we have different goals for her future. I'd explain earnestly that I really do have a personal obligation and commitment to prepare her to be able to hold a job, including the ability to enter post-secondary education if she wants to. (If she wants to enter, not if she wants to prepare.) The deal would be: as long as she co-operates with me in that process towards that goal, I would pour as much as I can into supporting her process towards her goal. (ie, providing extra swim lessons, supporting swim clubs, equipment purchases, vacation ideas that include her scuba priority.)

 

All hypothetical of course, I really mean to say that you can feel free to sit down hard on his rock-star dreams, and emphasize that you don't buy it, and fully intend to prepare him for a realistic future. Some dreams need to be discouraged: if not totally discouraged, at least approached reasonably with a sustainable backup plan.

Edited September 26, 2016 by bolt.

[chilliepepper]

I think I'm a bit hard nosed, but when my DD wanted to be a scuba diver, I told her that's a hobby, not a job. Plus, it's an expensive hobby, so you'll need a good job with a nice amount of vacation time and disposable income. She believed me, and is now thinking about becoming a dentist.

 

If she didn't believe me, and carried on believing that she could 'be' a scuba diver as an adult -- I think I would have probably told her that I recognized we have different goals for her future. I'd explain earnestly that I really do have a personal obligation and commitment to prepare her to be able to hold a job, including the ability to enter post-secondary education if she wants to. (If she wants to enter, not if she wants to prepare.) The deal would be: as long as she co-operates with me in that process towards that goal, I would pour as much as I can into supporting her process towards her goal. (ie, providing extra swim lessons, supporting swim clubs, equipment purchases, vacation ideas that include her scuba priority.)

 

All hypothetical of course, I really mean to say that you can feel free to sit down hard on his rock-star dreams, and emphasize that you don't buy it, and fully intend to prepare him for a realistic future. Some dreams need to be discouraged: if not totally discouraged, at least approached reasonably with a sustainable backup plan.

 

Oh I really like this. You are so right. "Approached reasonably with a sustainable backup plan..." nice and balanced. Thanks!

[chilliepepper]

However, this concept is not well understood or appreciated by ds! 

 

Hence, my post! Trying to figure out how to drive this message home. There have to be stories or movies that explore this idea. But I can't think of any.