ABA tutor questions for OhElizabeth or others

[Innisfree]

I've seen references to these several times and I'm very intrigued.

 

Are these people primarily BCBAs who tutor on the side, or tutors who have some knowledge of ABA, or what exactly? Where and how did you find them? They sound extremely helpful and I'd like to see if we could find similar people.

 

Thanks!

[PeterPan]

A behaviorist will often have college students, etc that she brings in at a lower price to do the bulk of the work.  There is now certification for behaviorists (BCBA), but people who've been in the field longer may or may not have that.  And there is also now some kind of certifying for the workers, but I forget what that label is.  So no matter what name they go by, that's what we're talking about.  Finding it *starts* with finding your behaviorist/BCBA.  Talk with several, see if they use people like that.  

 

For us it gets the pricepoint down.  In the big city, a BCBA is $200+ an hour.  Some have PhDs even.  These people hire and farm out the bulk of the hours, and the BCBA just supervises, kwim?  Fwiw, our behaviorist, whom we're satisfied with, was in the field before BCBA and is not BCBA.  Our ABA tutor is not RB or whatever that certificate is either.  I think I read that's more in schools or for insurance purposes.  

 

It's actually really hard to find people to be willing to do this.  They aren't necessarily immediately liked by the parents (because everyone is stressed) and they're saying they're willing to be hit, spat on, etc.  Our ABA tutor gets $15 an hour, which is more than Walmart but not exactly a lot when you consider what she has to put up with.  

 

So when you find someone with these workers, usually that behaviorist has put some effort into training them.  They meet and discuss things, plan, learn strategies.  And of course that worker has the hotline to text the behaviorist to deal with things. 

 

Yes, for us it has been a good process.  It lets someone ELSE work through some of the ugh, get things going better, and then I just ride on her coattails.  It gives me a break so I can get some things done.  It gives me a way to know that someone is interacting with him and he's not just going feral while I do other things.  It gives him more voices saying yeah this is really what we do, this is the plan, this is how it is.  

 

I know there are people who think ABA is terrible.  Fine, whatever.  A lot of what we do is just basic stuff like letting him see natural consequences, giving him the chance to realize he enjoys engaging.  All the junk you read about like trying to stop stims, etc., we don't do.  It's all very pleasurable.  If anything, as a parent you're like wow couldn't we just CRACK DOWN?!?!  Like why do we have to do it so slowly and get his mind to engage.  Why not just WHAM this is how it is.  It's a very tedious, child-centered process, in an odd sort of way, which is why it flabbergasts me that people who ARE so child-centered and wanting to engage would be so opposed to it.  There must be places out there doing things radically differently, because what we're doing isn't that way.  It's not harsh and it's very fun for him. 

 

Ok, I'm just talking out loud here, may or may not apply.  One of the quandries you'll find with this is that you can't work on BEHAVIOR and academics at the same time.  Like we're calling her an ABA tutor, but reality is one will be the goal and the other is the bonus.  So my ds gets ABA with some academics thrown in.  It's not academics with some ABA thrown in, if that makes sense.  I guess they could do that.  I'm just saying it's not what we're getting.  And my ds' behaviors were challenging enough (are challenging enough) that none of the academics are really in that "wow, let's explore Italy and have fun!" kind of realm.  It has to be more basic, concrete stuff.  I printed math worksheets from TCR.  I have dot to dots.  They do a science read aloud.  Anything that can be done with a timer, that is concrete.  

 

And the trouble for me is that's not the EXTENT of what I want my ds to do!  I like doing with him more exploratory stuff.  He finished reading a picture Bible (very concrete) then we had a Bible times party and made costumes and did crafts.  But that open-ended stuff can really result in problems with him.  He does better with structure, clear expectations.  Otherwise his mind just goes ZIP ZOOM and thinks up something to do, gets stuck on it, and is off!  And I suppose people have theories on that too.  Fine, let 'em.  I think there's some moderation.  When my ds is stuck on something, he's not happy and nobody is happy.  Some balance, the ability to do something and then leave it, is healthy too.  

 

I'm saying ABA work like this really pushes your philosophical envelope, if you like a more interest-driven, child-driven kind of thing, because it's going to tend toward wanting clear expectations, very concrete work, things they can quantify, put on a list, and take breaks from.  So that's a challenge.  I haven't really sorted that out in my mind, because I like both.  But I'm saying it's something to be aware of, that if you think this person is going to sit down for 30 or 50 minutes and do tutor-style interactive math, hang it up, not happening.  Well maybe with an older dc with less behaviors?  Maybe.  But not here.  Here it's a concrete, tidy list of very clear things.  And I don't want his WHOLE education and whole intellectual life to be that.  But reality is he had to have a way to learn the self-regulation to be able to work together and do the more interest-driven, open-ended stuff.  Clear expectations, structure, these things are calming.  Not inspiring, lol, but calming.

 

We have a tutoring place in town that is TUTORS who got their ASD certificates (bah) who then are willing to work with more challenging students.  They make NO pretenses of doing ABA, upcharge 25% per hour, and readily admit they'll have times where the student spends the whole session under a table.  None of that was acceptable to me.  With my ABA tutor college student, I pay a fraction of the price, and he learns enough skill and self-monitoring and calmness to be ABLE to do intervention level work with me.  We use the same spot, the same structures, the tutor and I.  And if I'm having trouble getting him to do something, she gets stuck doing it first, hahaha.  So it's not like I use one space and she uses another.  If I want to have something work, we have to be honest about what it takes and not expect it to generalize to a different location or different curriculum or something.  The REASON this works is because they are so free from thinking about anything else (dishes, bills, errands, whatever) and so fresh that they can come in and tone down the demands, get the connection, do something motivating, and then quietly make a small demand (hey, we need to do this thing so we can do that other thing you want to do) without it shattering the world.  

 

I'm sure there are more advanced goals.  There are lists like ABLLS and whatnot they can go through.  In our case, we identify our skill goals and hit them with materials.  Everyone has their starting point and where they're at.  Those lists are a really big deal!  If you have a dc who needs to go through them and identify areas to work on, they will.  My ds probably has some holes because we haven't done that.  He's a real funky mix, so there probably are some holes.  But it's nice too because I can say hey we need to work on his ability to sit and listen to a book, and we'll pick a creative way to bring that into the mix.  He really gets to do as much as he's able to stay engaged for.  We've talked about bringing him in some spanish.  The tutor is really good at basic drawing (with markers and things), so they have scads of fun doing the Draw Write Now books.  That's something I don't even do well, lol.  Speech therapy I'm pretty bang up on, math ok, but drawing, nope.  

 

Ok, here's why it's a problem to me, this whole debate between structure and engagement.  If I reduce his work to this list of workbooks, I have structure, can quantify it, blah blah.  They won't perfectly fit him, but it would be quantified.  And then we'll have fights.  At least I think it would come.  This whole well now I don't want to.  Or we wouldn't have results because of his SLDs.  That whole fighting a curriculum that doesn't fit SLDs, fighting a curriculum because of the ASD, that whole thing just fatigues me.  I LIKE our more engagement driven things!  The Ronit Bird, living math, the cool things we do together, it all fits.  And that's ok because we *can* put math on the list, check it off, and say yeah we're counting that for math for today, check, done.  That mixes structure and passion.  But uber- structure IS NICE!  And uber-structure helps him suck up and do some things he might have been loathe to try for himself that he actually CAN enjoy and CAN do.  And when he figures out he CAN do things, then he's more motivated to try them!

 

And to be truthful, my ds is also just figuring out that he has SLDs.  Or, as he told me recently, "I should do things I'm good at.  I'm good at swimming and gymnastics.  I'm not good at school work."  Sigh.  Everything fits him, is engaging.  I mean like seriously it is.  I'm super careful about that.  But no matter what I do, I can't erase that it's hard.  And we haven't had that talk, because I don't want to make him think he CAN'T.  Like who ever heard of a dyslexic finishing 1st grade with a 5th grade reading level.  Like seriously??  I mean, it's just whack.  But it's still HARD.  And he's realizing it's HARD.  And the STRUCTURE of the ABA sessions helps him try things and do it and make progress, which makes it a little less hard I guess.  

 

So I don't know.  It's just stuff I mull, those balances.  I think about least restrictive environment and whether we're getting good fruit.  It's good for him to get to interact with a variety of people who make demands.  If you just go out and socialize, people don't make demands or push back.  Well kids will, but then it's over.  With our sessions the demands are carefully measured, and he gets that variety.  He just does better with a variety of people now.  We still have a lot to work on, sure.  But it's going ok.  He's growing in independence and using his skills.  He has learned that he CAN stretch himself and try harder things.  

 

 

[Innisfree]

Thank you so much! I've got to come back and study this when I have time. We're trying to get through some work here (wishing I had an in-the-trenches style emoticon on my phone). I want to spend some time thinking this through and get back with you.

[PeterPan]

Our behaviorist had experience with other homeschoolers.  It's something to talk with them about.  Our state has disability scholarships, so there are lots of providers who work with homeschoolers.  It's something I can find easily, someone who is trying to make my HOMESCHOOL work better, not turn it into school or send him to school, if that makes sense.  

 

It's something I'm just sensitive to.  I'm not homeschooling my ds to isolate him, and I'm not trying to turn it into school.  I want him to have the SKILLS to be able to do comfortably what homeschoolers do.  That means to be able to self-monitor, to shift, to handle choices and structure and go between those, to have things that are interest-driven and things that aren't.  Homeschooling actually requires a lot of self-monitoring and regulation skills!  It's why homeschooled kids do so well in the outside world, because they've been doing that.  

 

I just think you can think through where this is going, what you'd like him to be able to do eventually, WHY you're at home vs. placing him in a school, what it's really essential to you to see happen, etc.  It sounds really obvious.  I'm just saying once you bring those workers in it's kind of a wave.  They have their values they bring in, and essentially it's going to look like Common Core brought into your home.  Our people will do anything I want, but I'm just saying if I default that's what it will look like, this typical list.  And I kind of back up as a homeschooler and say ok, what do I value, what do I want him to be able to do.  

 

For instance, I WANT him to be able to do a read aloud with me.  I don't mind motion, playing, whatever.  I'm just saying to me that was a big deal!  And I think it's on some of your ABLLS or VBMAPP type things too maybe.  But I wanted that.  I want him to be able to color.  Lots of pleasurable things and typical homeschool things require coloring.  I want him to be able to read independently.  I want him to be able to do something fun (a kit, a game) ,and then self-monitor, make a calming choice, and go back to something else.  I want him to be able to use a list.  

 

Whatever being at home means to you, you want to fight for those skills and prioritize them.  To me, I want him to WANT to be there.  To me that IS the point of homeschooling.  If we were doing it irrespective of what he wanted, we could just send him to school.  That was important to me.  

 

It's just stuff you can think through.

[PeterPan]

Oh I totally get it!  A bunch of our therapies and things tried to schedule early mornings, and we were having internal combustion and meltdowns!  He's still asleep.  I'll go check, but I think he is.  :)

[Lecka]

For me for our insurance -- when I say tutor I mean RBT. They are through our ABA agency. It is a newer and somewhat minimal certification that our insurance started requiring about a year ago.

 

Another major insurance locally doesn't specifically require the RBT certification and their version of "tutor" has done a training that that insurance accepts and have a different name, or they are just people trained through the agency.

 

For me though our insurance requires RBT now.

 

For me also, they are similar to a school aide. There are a lot of people who work as an aide in the day and then as a tutor in the evenings and/or weekends, or even for some morning hours to help kids get ready for school.

 

Anyway -- depending on the experience of a school aide and how much training they have had, for is a tutor could be similar to a school aide, or might be better (more trained and experienced) than a particular aide, or a particular aide might have excellent experience and similar training.

 

But here it is the same group of people to some extent.

 

This is -- keeping in mind my son is in a program at school that is just for autism and aides who are hired are all applying for the autism program, usually bc of a special interest or career goals that they have.

 

Edit:

 

If you look on the BCBA website, you can see the requirements for their certifications. It goes BCBA, BCaBA, RBT. A BCBA has a masters degree and has passed a test and has had supervision hours. A BCaBA has done a lot but doesn't have their masters or the full test. An RBT has had supervision hours and done some online training. That is not exactly right but it is the gist -- but you can see that on the website.

 

Oh also -- the RBT is supervised by somebody with a higher certification. That is what my insurance requires. So for me -- there is always a context like my child is working with the tutors, but a BCaBA is supervising her and working a lot on programs (deciding what and how to do things,

then the tutor implements).

 

But for me this is through our agency. They are mostly hired from majors in speech therapy or education. It is considered good experience for speech therapy majors who want to work with kids with autism when they graduate. My son's school program is also considered this way locally.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

For my insurance.... Okay, the website is babc.com scroll all the way down to see RBT overview and task list.

 

Locally this is a new thing. For people who do this job -- for some it is worthwhile to pay their fee and send in their paperwork. For other people -- they are fine just working for families whose insurance does not require this paperwork.

 

At our agency -- I think the quality is the same.

 

But our agency is not putting people to work with no training, and apparently there were people doing that in other locations.

 

But for us it can mean that there are very good people who want to do this job for a year, and it is not worth their time to do the certification bc they can work without it and still get what they need (experience and a year of employment). So that is a downside for us. (Bc it seems like it takes a couple of months for the paperwork to go through, so it is not like they can do their requirements and have the paperwork go through the next day ----- but it is new here and this may be better this year). Edit -- I mean, they could be really good but decide to work for families who don't require the certification for a year, and not get it. So then my son can't have those people as options.

 

Also for example -- if someone is pursuing their BCaBA, I don't know if it does anything for them to get the RBT in the meantime. So that is going to be a quality person, but maybe we can't hire that person bc our insurance regulation.

 

But I think it is good in its way to want to make sure they are paying people who have at least had some training.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

There is another thing -- in our area there are a couple of BCBAs who don't work as part of an agency. They have a different model. Their model is not the same model as an agency (here).

 

The thing about having an RBT work for you ---- there is a lot of paperwork involved. For somebody who doesn't have a model where they are having tutors work with them, then they are probably not going to supervise an RBT. Maybe they would, but not necessarily.

 

So for me if I know that my insurance works a certain way, and if I know my son needs/qualifies for a certain number of hours, then if I am picking a service provider (which this is hypothetical except we are moving and I will need to do this then) then I need a service provider that can provide the hours.

 

Most BCBAs are not working one-on-one with clients, with one client, for gobs of time. A few are, who just like to do that, who just have a very small number of clients and just do it.

 

But then there are also BCBAs who are working more as consultants, but are not set up to provide all the hours personally or through their own business/agency.

 

They might be set up that the consult with people whose kids just don't need gobs of hours. Or, they might be set up where parents find their own tutors ands pay them personally.

 

That used to be super common as a model.

 

Well, my insurance is set up in a way where I need an agency where they will staff, train, pay, supervise, etc. RBTs, b/c that is how my insurance works.

 

But my point is -- not all BCBAs are working in a model where they are going to have tutors or RBTs. Some are set up a different way. And, it is a lot of work b/c like -- they might have to go set up a table at a job fair, or they might go speak at a speech therapist club meeting to try to recruit new people. Then they have to spend time training them. They have to have somebody who does payroll or hire that out.

 

So anyway -- there are models where you advertise and hire your own tutors and then pay somebody to train them (like a consultant) or pay them for time they spend doing online training, or pay for them to attend a training seminar.

 

Traditionally people try to hire college students majoring in a related field like speech, education, or psychology.

 

 

But my context is.... reading things that are more about someone with a pre-school aged child who are trying to set up a home program. Like -- this is the model you read about it Let Me Hear Your Voice, where the mom hired her own people and then had a consultant who came in once in a while (iirc).

 

Well -- that is not how our insurance is set up to work, at all. So basically for us -- we most likely need to go through an agency that does the RBT thing, b/c that is what makes sense for the combination of my son and our insurance. And I do think it is a good model, but it is not the only model.

 

I know the names of some online training that is the same training an RBT might do (as far as the online training part, not the hands on part). So that is a thing, also. A lot of agencies write up their own training materials so they don't have to pay a fee, but there are ones that offer this service for a fee, too.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

https://www.reliaslearning.com/registered-behavior-technician-rbt-training

 

I did just glance.... my son's agency doesn't pay for this, they have their own they do ------ but this is an online training.  Like -- as a parent, if you wanted to you could hire somebody, pay for them to take this training, and pay for them to have some kind of hands-on training. 

 

But this is done by my son's agency.

 

I am just saying -- if you happened to know somebody, you could do it this way.  Or if you wanted to have the same training that an RBT would have, as far as the online training, you could pay and watch it yourself. 

 

I never have -- but I see it mentioned as something people do sometimes.  B/c I think if you are not having insurance pay or needing to follow insurance requirements, you have a lot more options, and some people do hire a BCBA as a consultant and then act as their own tutor or private pay a tutor, just because maybe it is cheaper or they know somebody etc. 

 

Like -- it does exist, it is an option.

 

But it would be a lot easier if you could just find somebody where all of that part was already taken care of for you!  

 

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Innisfree]

Okay, I still need to think through a lot of this. Just as a quick note, though...

 

For us, insurance won't cover anything. Our ABA is funded through a county program, but it won't cover tutoring. So this is going to be a strictly self-pay situation if I can find people to make it work.

 

Our BCaBA has actually just gotten qualified as a BCBA. She's really good, but she's hired through an agency where the lowest-cost help is a BCaBA at $80/hour. So the agency isn't going to be a source of anyone for tutoring. There is a local university I can check with. So, maybe I just need to ask about students with some knowledge of ABA, at least in theory.

[Lecka]

I think you can ask your BCaBA if they provide any "consulting" services or training services if you hire your own tutor/s. 

 

You could privately hire the tutors, privately pay for them to do online training (which is the same as they would do at an agency I think), and then see if you can privately pay for them to have some hands-on training with the BCaBA. 

 

What is always mentioned as the problem is that if you are hiring college students, they can have high turnover, or change their interest, and then you have to hire somebody and pay for the training again.

 

I have only read about this kind of model, but it is a thing, it exists, and my understanding is that a lot of people do it who are private paying for tutors. 

 

Another option would be to switch to an agency that did have tutors that charged much less, and just pay the agency.  There might be an option that way where there is an agency you might also like that would have some people working there who are making less than $15/hour, and it is the agency's problem to hire them and train them. 

 

That is just off the top of my head.

 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

If you lived in my town -- I would say get on the waiting list with my son's agency where they do offer this service.  But the waiting list right now at my son's agency is over a year, so that is not really helpful, either, even in my town. 

[Lecka]

Separately -- here, nobody is going to have ABA experience unless they have worked for my son's agency or for the school district in a very specific program (and then it is very light in its way, in some ways). 

 

Like -- there is no school program for it.

 

At another college in my state, though, they have a degree option in psychology that involves ABA. 

 

So I do think it is worth checking on, but here you would be better off looking for a school aide with some training who might work after school, I think.  That is my first thought for how to find somebody who has some training but who isn't through my son's agency (which has a waiting list).  And then for people who used to work at the agency -- they either are out of the field, or are moving up to a higher-paying job (like BCaBA or whatnot).  It is not only this way, but the tendency is people are on their way up, or they look for a steady job that will offer benefits, which here is more likely to be a school position or a center position. 

 

But also my son is much younger and I think a different profile, so take it with a grain of salt, b/c I am thinking of him. 

 

For example -- I know that there are pre-school aides who have quite a bit of experience, who work part-time and might work in the day (some work either in the morning session or the afternoon session).  But when you have an older child, maybe you aren't thinking "oh, I want to hire somebody who has experience with pre-school aged kids." 

 

You also might look at any centers near you, there might be some lower-cost options. That is really not an option where I am, but it could be an option where you are. 

 

If you look in your parent community maybe somebody has a child who does not need a tutor for as many hours, and that person is looking for another job.  That does not happen locally, but maybe it is a thing where you are.  I read that, and it is just not something that is done here, I guess.  But  maybe where you live.  B/c maybe some other parent has got somebody and doesn't need them for as many hours anymore. 

 

Edit:  Actually, about ten years ago, here the only option for ABA was to pay like $2,000 to bring a consultant in to work with private-paid tutors.  I know a woman who did that as a tutor!  Well, she did it for one year, but now she is a stay-at-home mom and she just had a new baby.  But she basically left the field after that year, she was working as an office manager when I met her.  So -- it was cool to meet somebody who had ABA experience, but it wasn't like she is doing it as a job now. 

 

I don't think she thought it was a good job for her, she said she just stayed the full year b/c the parents were so stressed out and she knew they had paid a lot for her starting out. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

http://info.bacb.com/o.php?page=101127

 

Also this lets you search for RBTs near you.

 

But here I looked at the list, and I know every one of them is employed either by the school district or my son's agency. 

 

I am in a pretty small place with limited services, though. 

 

And someone from the school district might work part-time or be looking for more work, too. 

Edited September 16, 2016 by Lecka

[Lecka]

Maybe someone with an older child will respond.  I always think there are more options for an older child!  But I don't really know, lol.  I feel like a lot of people don't want to work with little kids, but now my son is a bit older and it seems like there are people who just want to work with little kids, too.  So I guess it may just depend. 

[PeterPan]

Just to help clarify your thinking a bit, are you wanting *tutoring* by someone who gets autism, or *ABA* with a bit of academics?  How old is the dc?  If the county is providing ABA and this dc needs ABA, why aren't they doing some academics as part of the ABA?  ABA includes academics.  

 

If you want a tutor who gets autism, the other way is to look for a tutor with an ASD certificate.  That person will be shockingly expensive, like just as expensive as your BCBA people.

 

Agree with everything Lecka said.  Gotta scat.

[caedmyn]

Do these people work with kids who don't have autism too, like kids with ADHD or ODD?

[Lecka]

If you want more of tutoring but just effective and getting things done, and effective and getting things done requiring some ABA stuff for your child..... That is my situation to some extent wrt academics.

 

I am just starting to have some effectiveness myself in some ways that I didn't even last year, wrt some academics (but not other academics lol).

 

And if you have some effectiveness you can spread it to other people, for some things. Then maybe they can do their thing and you do the more ABA parts that help with things.

 

If that is laughable (which I get!) then you really might need an effective person.

 

If you need a break or want her to broaden her horizons or be more flexible or anything like that, you also might be able to spread your own effectiveness to other people in some ways.

 

I think of this like instructional control. If I have some degree of instructional control with my son, and in my house, it can spread to other people in some ways.

 

But if you need instructional control in the first place --- to me that is time to go more for ABA and trying to do it really good. That is, if it is what is recommended and you think it is a good fit and everything.

 

Bc sometimes you might need to have more or other people (which can be so important for so many reasons), but other times you might invest in training for yourself and trying to really go for doing some of the ABA stuff and looking for parent training and that kind of thing.

 

I was told with my son he would need to have instructional control with 8 people before he would just accept new people and think maybe he should listen to them in the basic way we expect kids to listen to adults. So I think in terms of that. For me I need to be one of those adults, but I can't be 8 people by myself, either.

 

But he had some behavior issues and I don't know if you have behavior issues or if it is more something else that is also difficult and problematic but is not behavior issues. If you haven't heard this kind of thing from the person you see, it might not apply at all.

[Lecka]

My agency doesn't, but in a school you might get someone like this brought in for behavior issues, and you might get an aide with some training like this. It would just depend.

 

For my son, they do a lot more than just behavior issues.

 

But if there are difficult behavior issues a person with this training might be brought in at school.

 

It could just depend I think.

 

The thing is there is basically no other treatment for my son. But if a child has ADHD or ODD they might have more options with medication or seeing a psychologist or a counselor.

 

Where right now those are just not options for us, though they are options for some kids with ASD (my son has a language delay that makes a lot of things not be options for him bc they require a certain language level).

 

I think locally -- in theory it is not just for autism, but in practice there are not enough people to go around, and then kids with another diagnosis have other options. But not bc it might not be helpful.

 

But I am not sure!

[Innisfree]

We're already getting ABA, which has included a bit of work on things like getting through a math lesson without shutting down. It has helped a lot. But our hours are limited, and we have a lot of other areas that need help.

 

What I'd like to find is one or more tutors who get autism, preferably without breaking the bank. Dd is almost 12. We need to deal with middle school work now, but I'm also looking ahead. Her older sister has just started the local high school, and I cannot presently see dd11 thriving in that environment. I *do* have ideas I think are workable to get her a high school education, but I think I need help and support from others. I can't do this alone if I'm going to do it for the long haul.

 

I want her to learn to work with and for other people. She needs to be able to do this as she matures.

 

I want to take advantage of people who know their subjects better than I can or will, preferably people who can share their excitement in their subjects.

 

I want her to be able to work with someone else for a while so I can do that load of laundry and genuinely clean the house without feeling like I'm short changing her education, kwim? Because she can't really keep going on her own yet.

 

So, hiring college students is an option I've thought of, but when I hear the term ABA tutor it sounds really good, lol.

 

The point about turnover among college students is a good one, of course. Maybe I should talk to the local tutoring agencies and see who they have. Someone with experience as a school aide could be good, if they can really teach. Or, I guess, even if they can just encourage her to keep working with material I've assigned, for now. I guess teaching is really a different role from supervising and encouraging, but either would help.

[Lecka]

This is what I run into.

 

For some things my son has gotten easier to work with. Then it doesn't matter much if somebody knows ABA. My son is bringing a lot to the table, so they don't have to bring so much to the table in that area.

 

Where he is more difficult to work with -- forget it, somebody has to be very skilled.

 

And then I am finding right now that sometimes the skill does not go together with the teaching tricks and knowing how to present material or work on it on the more academic side.

 

I think that can go together, but I am seeing it be hard to find both those things in one person.

 

So I need to bring something to the table either in ideas for what to do and how to work on it, or I need to bring something to the table in terms of behavior supports.

 

But for either of those -- once they are in place, I bet it could be pretty independent.

 

It just might not be turning it all over to someone.

 

Anyway, that is what I am seeing right now.

 

My son needs to do a bit better in some areas to work with people who are good but don't have the specifics of ABA techniques. In some things he is there but still needs someone who is nice and still needs the help.

[Lecka]

If she needs someone to sit with her to encourage her, but she is not really difficult about it, that might not be hard to find.

 

Also if you want to transition her to more independent work, that is something where there are autism or ABA kinds of ideas about how to help kids do more independent work.

 

But if she needs stuff explained to her -- that is not where you practice independent work skills. Stuff that is able to be done independently is where it is practiced!

 

So here at school they separate it out sometimes, and have easier things be done independently and there is a workbox kind of thing, and you start small and work up, etc.

 

But if she isn't able to do something bc it is hard, that might not be the place to do that.

 

I was told at school, make a place for building independent work skills even if it means spending time not learning new material. That is what they told me they think is good to do.

[PeterPan]

Yes, you're looking for the right thing.  And that's how my ds is.  I can't just put him with a regular tutor, because he's going to have behaviors they can't handle.  It takes a lot of hours to build up these skills to where the dc is ready to do things.  I'm horrified your place isn't giving you the hours.  I don't know how it works everywhere or insurance.  I'm just saying you're NOT being unreasonable to want hours.  The NORM seems to be 10-20 hours a week for ASD1.  My ds is ASD1, pushing into 2.  Actually his tutor was asking why he's not ASD2 with the behaviors he has.  He's just such a mix.  And your success gets you discriminated against, rather than saying hey let's keep supporting because this COULD go so much better.  

 

So I think what you're fighting for is hours.  I read about ABA being (typically) 3 years.  With our state funding, I think the idea is we'll be able to keep it.  We bill the state under "education services" for our scholarship.  An intervention specialist is the person who technically supervises that or even implements it.  So that's another name you can notice.  That will be more money, but again it's a way to look.  I *think* hiring an intervention specialist straight is usually less money than a BCBA.  So that's sorta your in-between option.

 

In other words, I could, in theory, use my funding to create my own little private school, paying people to work with him the whole day.  That would be kinda weird, but I could.  And really, when our behaviorist counts up hours of ABA to see if we're on-track, she includes what I do!  Because, when it's going well, I'm high value and working toward those goals too.  So right now he's at 8 hours a week of ABA plus what I do with him. Recommended amount for him is 10-20.  

 

So if your place is giving you 1or 2 hours a week or something, I'd definitely look into more.  There's a lot more someone COULD do for you and a lot farther this could be taken.  It's just availability of the people.

 

It would take a while to train a tutor and they'd need the right demeanor.  Our chick is an education major, intervention specialist specifically.  They have all the problems that come with that too, like not knowing phonics, being math phobic, etc.  BUT they have things drilled into them that make it safer too.  I don't want some random Joe off the street who thinks it's ok to pull out his moralizing from his pocket.  It's really important to be on-board with the plan, not rogue.  

 

In your ds' case, does he have clearly structured work that someone else COULD supervise if they were there?  Like is it stuff that's plain enough that if a person who wasn't crazy into the topic but was 20+ sat down with him and was supervising, they could answer the questions or help him through it?  As long as that's the case, then they can come in, sit with him while he works, and make it ABA magical.  It's kinda like Disney pixie dust, only it's ABA magical dust.  And that's what you'd be paying for.  You wouldn't expect more swanky academics, but you would probably be able to get things flowing better, get compliance, get self-regulation, etc.  

 

My break's up.  Back later.  :)

 

 

[Lecka]

If she can work with someone from a tutoring agency with a bit of advice from you and a bit of advice from your BCBA, then I think that is a great option.

 

If there is a problem you can ask the BCBA for advice.

 

That would be like you are consulting her for some help if something comes up.

 

I think be very clear on your goals.

 

Sometimes your goal is for more than just a completed paper at the end of the session.

 

I have had a bit of an issue with my son having a completed paper, but getting too much help or not enough explanation or whatever, and really not getting much out of it as far as learning the material.

 

But there are times when having a completed paper is a great accomplishment even if it is not indicating a lot of learning. It can be indicating "hey, he kept at it" or "great following directions."

 

Sometimes if tutoring is tied to a school curriculum it can become just getting through it, and then moving on to the next thing.

 

So I think, think about what you want and make it clear.

 

If her level of behavior issues is low enough that this can work ---- you really may not "need" someone with the more autism stuff. It is good stuff, but there is a bit of "yes we work with kids with potential serious behavior issues" and a lot of places just flat will not work with kids with a certain level of behavior issues. So that is where some people don't have as many options for that reason.

 

Or just -- maybe they just can't get anything done.

 

But if they can -- then hey, it is an option!!!!!

[PeterPan]

Fwiw, I have to *pay* for the hours where the behaviorist is talking with the tutor.  They both get paid.  They call it a planning hour, but it definitely happens.  There's a lot to what our chick does with my ds.  All the breaks, everything is planned and thought through.  Well I guess, let's back up.  When my ds works with the tutor, he now works with them for 3-4 hours.  Does that make more sense then when I say that?  That's why there's a planning hour.  So there's that difference too, like are you wanting help for one subject for one hour, or are you wanting ABA + some academics, as in longer sessions?  

 

So yes, my ds is doing 4 hours twice a week.  On those days I do lighter, more fun things in the morning, so he's not worn out.  That's behaviorist (1) plus tutor (3) one day and tutor (4) the other.  Just in case that was clear as mud, lol.  So when the tutor comes in to work 3-4 hours, she actually has a whole plan.  Now it will FLEX to roll with him, absolutely.  But there is a plan and she writes it all out.  When she started, she wrote out everything but when to breathe!  Like EVERYTHING.  Every single thing they were planning down to the 5-10 minute level.  Because a lot of it was about reducing stress, improving compliance.  We have whiteboards all around the room so that everyone can write what they're doing and have space to work.  I have *4* up right now, hehe.  One for me, one for the tutor, one for memory work and things we're discussing (Shakespeare quotes, things we're memorizing like telephone numbers and scripture, etc.), and a 4th for doing lessons and things together.  I'm really pleased with how it turned out!

 

So I'm just saying that what we're doing is not one hour, in out, where she comes in to do just math or just OG and plugs through it and leaves.  With that, maybe the novelty and high structure would help and make it sorta survivable.  When she comes in, she's doing 4 hours.  So we're bringing in LOTS of skills, like being able to say you need a break, being able to ask to go to the bathroom and not just disappear, behaviors when you play games (losing, etc.), self-regulation during breaks, waiting, etc. etc.  

 

So that's something to think through, whether you're wanting 1 hour, 1 subject, or a longer block of time to get sort of that total package.  My ds needed the total package.  But, fwiw, when we started we were doing 2 hour blocks.  We didn't just whomp him into 4.  We started off with less, got that comfortable, improved the compliance to where he could ENJOY having that interaction for longer, then bumped it up.  I was kinda slow to catch the vision on it too.  From where he started, I would NOT have anticipated that he could really just go in and enjoy working like that.  I mean, if you knew where we were this spring, it would BLOW YOUR MIND.  

 

Huge change, huge change.  But I can be honest about that and say we needed a huge change.  We USED to have a really good time together, back when he was like 3, back when there were no demands, back when the SLDs weren't an issue, back when miniscule attention didn't really matter because expectations were brief.  We're WAY better than our best EVER was before, and HE is engaged.  Working on compliance did not kill his love of learning.  He's actually requesting MORE and doing MORE and interacting MORE!  He asked for economics magazines tonight!!!  Well, not exactly asked.  He asked why our stuff is all made in China and what I thought about whether the US should trade with China, and when my pathetic answer didn't satisfy I asked if he'd like magazines on it.

 

:svengo:

 

Thanks to our ABA sessions my kid now reads.  It's way hard, so he's not pleasure reading.  But he can sit in a corner and choose to for a bit and keep going beyond the timer because he's having a good time and wants to.  He can listen to a read aloud.  He can converse.  He notices (sometimes) your reactions or opinions or realizes that you could have one.  That's only occasional, a work in progress, lol.  We've just come SO FAR from where we were. 

 

But that's total package, multi-hour sessions.  We weren't functional before.  We couldn't connect worlds and he couldn't work with me for more than 10 minutes at a time.  And I'm a super cool person on that, like motion doesn't bother me, etc.  But it was really TOO much.  It wasn't workable.  HE goes to his office willingly and has a good time and picks things and can take turns and can say ok I'll do the thing you picked because I really like the next thing that's coming up.  That's real life.  

 

Well whatever.  I just think it's possible for me to say things and maybe have all those details get missed.  And someone else's needs and mix could be totally, totally different.  We just had a glaring situation.  The ps psych came and observed him with the ABA tutor for an hour and a half.  It wasn't ME; it's just ds' reality.  But his was sort of an overall thing, so he needed overall help.  If you're singing along pretty well for the rest, your needs are different.  I'm just saying that's what we're doing.  

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Innisfree]

I *think* at this moment we most need to just bring in another person who can work with her and keep her going on some things which are fairly clearly laid out and give me a break. We need a positive person who will take instruction from the ABA folks and me, and then work with her and cheer her on and keep her going.

 

See, the thing about our ABA is that they cannot *do* academics. They can provide support for me doing it, and that's been great, but they can't do anything like that themselves. So I have to be there, every moment. And, really, I think there's some rule that I have to be there anyway.

 

When dd is working well, I feel pretty foolish using our ABA hours having me sitting there teaching while the behaviorist is twiddling her thumbs, pretending to ignore dd (because that's how she works best) and occasionally making notes.

 

When dd is not working well, I get good advice and support, but little work gets done.

 

And either way, the process chains me there.

 

I want to be able to step away and hand some of that to someone else with a reasonable chance of the work getting done.

 

Right at this moment, the person needs to be a reasonably educated adult who can follow instructions. But, soon, that person is going to need to actually be able to teach a fifty-minute class. I would love to get to the point of being able to say " okay, dd, your math tutor is here," and *walk away* for a while. And then at the end of an hour the French tutor would come strolling up the path.

 

This may be hopeless fantasy. I don't want to hand over everything, and I don't want to follow in lock step with everything that would be happening in a ps classroom. I want materials dd can work with well and reasonably happily. But I want her to learn to work with others and me to get a break.

 

Right now the main behavioral issue is just shutting down when she is overwhelmed. That's hard, apparently even from an ABA perspective. They cite the "dead man rule": if she isn't *doing* anything, i. e., if she's acting "dead", there's apparently no ABA response. And of course that's what happens when she gets overwhelmed most of the time.

 

So what they've done is help me learn to keep her engaged and notice the warning signs before that happens, to head it off.

 

So that is the biggest behavioral problem a tutor would need to cope with. Not to say there haven't been others, but those are getting far less frequent.

 

Actually, when I type all this out, the list of requirements seems significant. :-(

 

Maybe this is a good business for someone to set up, lol. I bet every town has a few kids who need tutors with somewhat better-than-average skills and a bit of ABA.

[Innisfree]

As far as hours: we're supposed to get 10/week, with (I think) one of those really being supervision. In reality, because scheduling and trying to get through schoolwork are issues, we've been getting more like five hours. Dd is theoretically level 2, though mostly looking like level 1 now. We've been getting this for a bit over a year now, and because of the way the funding is done, it may not last much longer.

[Lecka]

This is the kind of thing I would be told.....  working with another person is one goal.  Working without someone at her side is one goal.  Learning math at her instructional level is one goal.

 

You might be able to work on one or two of those goals at the same time.  All three at the same time might be hard to do all at the same time.

 

If you are able to work with her and teach her math, then it sounds like your goal is not really that you just need somebody who can explain the math to her.  Your primary goal there sounds like having another person be able to work with her, more than needing math tutoring b/c you can't do it yourself or she won't work with you. 

 

I think if you thought you could just bring in a math tutor and it would be no big deal -- then it would be no big deal.  And maybe it is no big deal -- maybe she will surprise you and just get to work.  Or maybe you know from previous experience that is not likely. 

 

Well -- you might want to start introducing the new person with either fun activities, or easier activities, or something, with a little bit of math, and work up to more math, or work up from review or "let's see where you are at" and then go on to her instructional level.  That "let's see where you are at" thing can be an excuse to start out doing something easier and get to know each other a bit.  So on one hand it can seem like a waste of time and money, but if it is potentially going to lead to a better result, it can be a good investment. 

 

Then on the independent work side.... I don't know if you have goals here.  Or, if you just like a really teacher-intensive model.  In school a lot of times, even if the teacher is in the room, kids may be expected to work independently as far as -- nobody is sitting there and holding their hand.  But with a teacher in the room -- well, that is quite different than to want to leave a child in a room while you go to another part of the house. 

 

Right now there are some things I can do with my son where he sits at the kitchen table while I am in the kitchen but at the sink.  He can do a math facts practice sheet this way.  This is new for us!  So I don't know if I am reading in too much if I picture she might not do a single thing without somebody sitting right next to her, constantly helping to re-direct, encourage, keep her on task, etc.  B/c when I say that having him sit in the same room as me but I am at the sink, and he can do a sheet of the easiest math facts, and it is a huge deal ----- maybe that is already a non-issue kind of thing.

 

But it took a lot to build up to it here, plus some maturity, etc.  And that is still for a short time and my proximity is still pretty close.  We talk about proximity a lot lol, we have had things where we are literally standing one step away, then two steps away, then three steps away, etc. 

 

But I wonder if there might be two separate goals, one for her to be able to do a little bit of independent school work while you are doing laundry.  And then separately from that -- being able to work with a different person while you are doing laundry.  So then there are two ways for her to accomplish things without you right there. 

 

Then, I do wonder if you could work on either of those things using ABA if you changed the task to be non-academic.  Like -- could you have her work with another person to do something besides math, but then that might generalize to working with another person on math.  Or -- can you work on her doing some independent task or following directions type of thing, with ABA, and then that might generalize to her working on some parts of her schoolwork independently. 

 

That probably wouldn't help much if the issue is very specifically math.  But if math is one thing, but then working with other people and/or independent work skills are issues apart from math, then might work out, if those are goals that the ABA person is allowed to have by your funding source. 

 

 

[Lecka]

Separately, here if she went to public school, I think you would get talked to about the possibility of anxiety.  It is supposed to be very common to be co-morbid with autism and they are really big on that here.

 

It can also get to be the first solution to every problem, even when it is not, in a way.

 

My son got observed last year by somebody who suspected anxiety based on a description of something, and then when she saw him, she thought it was something else (that also made much more sense to me). 

 

But I have heard some success stories, too, where a kid got observed and then they added the anxiety route, and it seems like it can work out. 

 

It can mean also seeing somebody who treats or focuses on anxiety, and that might not be something your ABA therapist is super-familiar with.  Or, she may be more familiar, or somebody at her agency might be more of the go-to person for it.

 

My son's ABA therapist is not a go-to person for anxiety the way some people are, she is more go-to in other areas.  It is just one of those things though, here I think it would get brought up, and it is not necessarily something where you can just stick to ABA and not branch out to other kinds of therapists. 

 

Really what I mean by this is, if she got observed and the person thought she seemed like anxiety was a factor, she would talk to you about considering going to someone who could prescribe medication and do anxiety stuff.  And an ABA person could have a role and be part of the team on that, but would not be able to do it all. 

 

That is where we were going as a possibility with this observation, but then when she did the observation ---- it was not that way at all.  But just one of those things I guess. 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

Are there other behaviorists within a 100 mile drive?  There are RBTs in my town who technically work under a behaviorist 60 miles away.  I found that on that listing last night.  So that's something to look into pronto, finding another behaviorist.  Your behaviorist seems to have NO VISION for what homeschooling is or what in the WORLD she's supposed to be there doing or could be doing.  I get it that insurance is saying stuff, but they could be doing more.  Ask Lecka, since her dc is in school.  What do insurance-funded aides do in her school?  What are they allowed to do?  

 

I also think at some point you are going to say ok we pay for it, which it sounds like where you are.  But your behaviorist sounds like an unmerciful dud.  

[Lecka]

Honestly here I think what insurance pays for drives what services are available in a lot of ways. 

 

When nobody is paying for certain things, I don't think the infrastructure happens. 

 

We have military insurance, and it seems like services that cover what military insurance pays for tends to exist around military bases..... but then if you are not by a base, there are not necessarily people who are providing the services that our insurance covers. 

 

It is a very weird thing, b/c I live in a state where overall there is a lack of funding and services, but we have military insurance. 

 

But at the same time -- I think maybe people in your area are doing something, maybe there is something available you can self pay for, that works for you and works with what is available locally.

 

But I think it can be really hard to find people, too.  It is hard. 

 

Here a lot of people do move out of state, b/c this is a hard state to work in in a lot of ways.  That is the truth.

 

I don't think it is the therapist's fault that she has probably taken out loans for a graduate degree and now needs to earn enough money to pay off her loans, or that she lives in a state where it is hard to get insurance coverage or funding. 

 

I think it is more of a consultant model, or a model where they are doing certain things but not doing certain other things, b/c they are going by the funding guidelines of the county (or whatever guidelines). 

 

I think it is all very frustrating and expensive. 

 

But I do also think, it is possible you might switch practices b/c maybe there is an option where you can get an RBT who would do what you want.  But you wouldn't necessarily get what you want with another agency, even if they did have an RBT in your area.  The RBT they have might not necessarily have what you want (beyond the autism part).  Maybe they would be able to deliver middle school and up academics, but maybe not.

 

I am really in a bit of a funk right now with the whole issue of prompted completion of schoolwork, and I think this is on me, b/c I come across like I want a math placement that is seeming like it is probably not appropriate... my son should really probably be in a lower level of math and I am taking steps that way with an e-mail I sent this morning.  But also just.... I don't know.  I don't think it is anybody's fault, it has just turned out this way.  And it is not a big deal, but I need to make this change, I guess. 

 

Edit:  I have to say, I do agree with E, it seems like your needs might be better met if you were with an agency where you could have your BCBA supervision covered by your county funding, and then self-pay for an RBT kind of thing, that was coordinated with them.  It is a model that has a lot going for it, if they are able to do what you need to do.

 

I also think sometimes people who are in this job are not necessarily the most academic people, but they are nice and caring and good with kids.  Sometimes people who are more academic types are not as patient with kids.  So I know there are people who have both things, but sometimes people may not have both things. 

 

On that side, I think it could work out to look for the academic side and then add a little on the side of making things work and giving some advice, and just needing somebody who would be flexible and willing to do it. 

 

But I think ---- right now, you have the knowledge of how to do some things you have gotten from the BCaBA.... so you have got that set of strategies now, and you can then help a new person get that set of strategies.  It might not be too complicated, honestly, to just communicate how to work well with your daughter to a new person.

 

I think figuring out how and what to do can be hard, but then when it is known, implementing it may not be too hard.  That is kind of the basis for the model where the knowledge of what to do and how to do it is high value, but the implementation is a lot lower value (as far as price and who can do it). 

 

As a parent I can implement things, and I can communicate "here is what will help" to other people.  Doesn't mean I can come up with the plan or know what to do next. 

 

Really -- I am pretty optimistic you can find somebody!  You do have behavior support and to me it sounds like you have some good things going for you already, where you can bring somebody in and share with them some successful strategies. 

 

You do say you are seeing much fewer issues in the past year since you started behavior services (or my mental summary) ----- that counts for a lot, you could really be ready to go on to non-specialist tutors.

 

I am told (again from school) that it is a good thing when kids can work with people who have less training.  As parents sometimes we want the best training, but our kids need to be able to handle people who do not have the top-notch training ---- it is what is closer to every day life for them.  I think it is something to consider, but also trying to be realistic about what is appropriate.  Edit:  and not like to defend things that are just not very good..... but it is one of those things where I know what they mean.... like, my son should be able to do well with a nice person, not only somebody who has very specific training and is constantly aware of how he/she is interacting with my son.  It may be what he needs sometimes, but it is not good for him if I think he should only interact with people who can bring that to the table, as a principle and not just something that might be more or less realistic. 

Edited September 17, 2016 by Lecka

[PeterPan]

I agree with Lecka (not exactly what she said, but where it was going), that you are using an unusually teacher-driven approach in amounts that are not age-typical or age-appropriate to *cover* for her lack of self-regulation.

 

I also think that your tutor or ABA worker you bring in will be no more successful with your dc than your behaviorist has.  Since your behaviorist has shown herself to be crap helpful, not helpful AT ALL, ditch her, get someone else.  She can't train someone and guide them if she hasn't got a clue herself.

 

The stuff Lecka is describing is all good, but that's NOT stuff you should be sitting there figuring out yourself.  That's WHY these people are typically $100-200 an hour, because THEY are supposed to know this stuff!  And if your behaviorist is willing to take that kind of money and TWIDDLE HER THUMBS, then FIRE her.

 

Some behaviorist's will have an undergrad in education.  I think ours has a mix of psych and education and she's LSW or something.  She brings that diversity to know what things should look like when they're happening right.  This week was not going well and I was lamenting that we just couldn't get in a groove, and she says Hey I'll come in if you want!  She did NOT mean she was going to teach him math.  She meant she was going to use ABA techniques to show him it matters, we care, she cares, that it has to be done, and that she can control motivators to get him motivated and onboard.  That's not doing academics.  That's doing what behaviorists DO.  And if your behaviorist doesn't have a vision for how to do that in a homeschool setting, then FIRE her.

 

I'm just saying our success STARTS with the behaviorist.  The person they train (college student) is going to talk like them, interact like them.  Our ABA worker is a CLONE of our behaviorist.  I kid you not.  So your worker will be no better than your behaviorist.  Start by getting the behaviorist right.

 

The stuff Lecka is describing is pretty normal and how it's supposed to go.  They start with low demands, pair, build bonds, find what motivates them.  It honestly looks like they waste a lot of time!  They spend multiple sessions finding what motivates the dc, so they can get things back on track.  That is just 101, kwim?  Like if your behaviorist isn't doing that, then what in the WORLD is she doing???  

 

Whatever, I don't know all of ABA.  You just seem very dissatisfied with the services you're receiving.  You might make some calls.  You might put out your feelers and ask who has a behaviorist that is familiar with homeschooling who has worked in this kind of environment.  

[PeterPan]

The other issue you're going to run into is that a newbie isn't going to be ready to work with your dc.  Or maybe they are?  But if they are and if it was that easy, then you'd be doing it.  If it was just like oh here's a tip, sit down, get it to work, then the behaviorist would give you that magic tip and it would be working.  So that's something to get honest about, that a behaviorist worth her salt might want a more experienced worker in there, someone who is already trained.  I think our person sort of shuffles them.  So like a newbie might start with a dc who has already had 6 months of ABA.  They don't start at the beginning.  The newbie worker starts with a dc who is already in the groove, so she just slides in.  THEN, when she has some experience, THEN they put her in with a new client and work it through.  That would be really dangerous to put some kids, who have had no ABA, in with new workers.  There would just be too much learning curve.  I'm saying it's reasonable to say maybe your dd needs a more experienced worker, that you should up-prioritize someone who has more experienced workers.

 

I'm sorry you're not getting the service you need to get the outcome you're looking for.  It sounds like somehow the lid has been kept on on what could be done.  It's like there's no vision, and I don't get it.  I think you may need to be willing to flex your expectations for academics for a while to enable someone to work with her who needs open and go, utterly obvious materials.  My ds has 3 SLDs, so I GET that it's always like gotta teach, gotta teach.  But reality is, I had to drop my expectations of WHAT they were going to do and shift it to HOW they were doing it.  So we have mildly intriguing, non-instructional level math worksheets.  They're sort of witty, at least enough to keep him engaged, but the purpose was to work on HOW we work, not to teach the math.  Does that make sense?

 

So that may be a shift you need to make.  It would only be for a couple sessions a week, not the end of the world.  If there are things that really need to be taught, you could teach them the other 3 days, kwim?  But really, a 13 yo should have SOMETHING they do independently.  Most curriculum has a workbook or worktext.  Or you buy an ebook to print that would be complementary.  I use a lot of fun things for them, like Highlights puzzles.  Does your dd like Sudoku?  Anything from Timberdoodle would be super fab.  

 

I just wonder if maybe you've never had a situation where she *could* work like that, so it hasn't been how you were trying to work.  With our people, they really want that.  And at first I was like oh that's bad, you don't understand how SLD he is and how special snowflake and how he ought to have all this custom, constantly interactive instruction!  And then I watched it and realized hello, when they teach a dc to choose to do something on his own for 10 minutes or 15 minutes, they're working on self-regulation and just the ability to self-assert.  I've got a dc who will just STAND there, unable to make a path for himself, to connect with a swim class if it's going on, etc.  So for them to say hey you need to choose things from the bin and busy yourself with independent work for 10 minutes or 15, there are REASONS for that that go WAY BEYOND the academics.  That IS the ABA, because it's the skills and motivation.  It's just that at this age it's using the foil of school work.

 

I think it's outrageous your behaviorist is just sitting there.

[PeterPan]

I don't think saying must have teacher-taught 50 minute classes is middle school academics.  That's covering up her lack of self-regulation.  Our behaviorist has tutors working with teens, absolutely.  They SUPERVISE.  They motivate, they keep on track, they help with self-regulation, they answer questions.  That's IT.  

 

I think it's ok to say you know I don't know where this is going and where she CAN be, but I know she can do more than she is doing now.  She can be more independent, more confident of the plan, more able to choose.  And maybe there are some things that are really like wow I want to do that with her.  We're introducing a *little bit* of open-ended stuff like that with our tutor.  But really, for lowering anxiety, for making things predictable, really it needs to be concrete, quantifiable.  

 

Fwiw, yes anxiety is one of the labels they toss around with my ds.  We're not using meds and no one has suggested meds for him.  But EXTREMELY CLEAR structure, absolutely.  Weaving in self-regulation breaks and activities along with the school work, teaching him to understand how he feels and to self-advocate for breaks, absolutely.  This is WHAT these people should be doing, and you should be spitting nails if they aren't.  

 

And maybe we're missing it.  Maybe you're not having a lot of behaviors?  It sure sounds like you are.  It sounds like you have a lot of Mom-control instead of self-control going on.  And I'm not saying you're doing something bad, but just that that's what the ABA SHOULD be working on.

Edited September 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Lecka sort of hinted at this, but I'll say it outright.  There's sort of a simplicity and obviousness to what they do, once you see it implemented, to where you're like OH I COULD HAVE DONE THAT!  But, the big but, but you needed the help to get there.  It's not actually super rocket science, but it's overwhelming and a lot of details.  And we have a lot more on our minds.  And we don't come in fresh.  And honestly we have so much trial and error that it's frustrating.  

 

So when you bring in somebody who HAS done it before, done what you're trying to do, and knows where it's going and how to get there and how to get her able to sit at a table, do her work, be chilled, take breaks, interact for a short lesson (15-20 min) then go to her assigned work and the next thing on the list, then you're riding on their coattails.  You're getting in their surf, in their wake, and going hey I'm ok surfing on my board behind you're board, let's do this together.

 

When someone is just watching, that doesn't really feel together, kwim?  I've got working partners in my team.  We actually bounce ideas, and I say hey I need this skill and could we get it this way, and they say cool and try to make it happen.  Or they'll say hey we're seeing this skill we know he needs, and I'll grumble and say yeah but I'm the 40 yo homeschooler of x years and I know better than you.  Then I shut up and agree, lol.  

 

It took me a lot of months to get comfortable enough with our little group to really work together.  You might do way better than me, because you're really ready.  I just needed time to learn to trust, to figure out what this was.  It's hard for homeschoolers to give up ground or cede things.  

 

Lecka has mentioned problems with RBTs at school.  I'll say something nasty.  I know they're NOT all bad, but I was pretty shocked at the low caliber of the people I saw on the directory.  Like I wouldn't want that.  I'm pretty happy with our super motivated college student.  She's fresh, young, and she is anxious to learn.  She's not someone who said well I don't have a job and this pays x so it will do.  And I think Lecka has had some super-motivated RBTs too!  But I think there are additional pressures in school that maybe we don't have at home.  They have testing and performance and just pressures.  It's a lot more laidback in the home.  

 

Where does your dd work?  We set up an office for my ds.  I'll try to take pics today.  I'm really proud of it.   :)  No seriously, having a dedicated space has been TRANSFORMATIVE for us.  I kid you not.  I cannot overstate how HUGE of a change this has been.  If you do not have a dedicated space, then I would STRONGLY encourage you to consider forming one when you bring on your new team, no matter what it takes.  Now maybe your dd really likes where she works now?  For my ds, it's very calming.  He chooses to go in the room and associates the room with good things.  He goes in and calms down.  Huge, huge, totally worth it.  And like you don't know the amount of consternation I went through making that decision.  I had people telling me homeschooling must be in the open, must be integrated in family life, that it was too whatever.  Fine.  But if your dc would do better with an office, then give them an office, kwim? :)

Edited September 17, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

I am wondering if there are more limits from the funding source you have.

 

Here there are things sometimes where the therapist is only allowed to do x, y, and z because that is the rule. Like -- they are not allowed to do this, they are only allowed to do things related to a certain thing.

 

Like they are only allowed to provide support services (like supporting or training the parent) but they are not allowed to provide direct services (like working directly with kids in ways they might work directly with other kids).

 

I have heard comments made that people wish they could do more, but they can't, bc the funding was provided with some conditions, and they have to follow the rules.

 

So I wonder if you are getting a certain category of services and it is provided by an ABA provider, but you are not getting every aspect through your funding.

 

It is something to look into when you look at how to spend your money.

 

Depending on what you need.... If you can get a traditional tutor and stuff happens -- well that is awesome! You may not need what some other people need. That is a normal thing -- different kids with the same diagnosis do not all need the same things. I can hear about other kids getting things and it sounds amazing, but my son may not need it.

 

But if it is extreme on the side of her not working with other people or independently, then those are equally important in a lot of ways as academics, bc they are daily life skills and job skills. Unless she does great outside of academics, which is a different kind of thing.

 

But if it is this kind of thing, you might pay for more ABA or for comprehensive planning or whatever, even if you implement a lot of it yourself.

 

But if you like who you have, you might get it from private pay without the restrictions.

 

I don't KNOW that this is going on, but it might be, it is something to look at I think. If it is going on maybe you could private pay for a small number of hours. I don't know.

 

But just to compare, my therapist has no restriction saying she can't do academics with *my son* but with another client maybe she does bc it is funded through such-and-such and she has to follow the rules.

[PeterPan]

It's also possible that they're trying to figure out what those limits mean in a homeschooling context.  Like it might be they can't do x, but with no experience with older kids and older kids in a homeschool context, they don't think through all the things they COULD be doing.  

 

Or flip it.  The insurance is saying they'll pay for ABA, but they won't pay for academics.  So what, they want them to do ABA and the activity is crochet??  It just reflects this lack of sense of what older kids do and what homeschoolers do.  What would the ABA person be doing if the dc were in school?  Would they supervise his homework?  Would they go in the school and consult with the teacher?  Would they twiddle their thumbs there too?  I could get consulting/observing if it was an hour, but 10 hours a week of consulting/observing???

[Crimson Wife]

 

Ok, I'm just talking out loud here, may or may not apply.  One of the quandries you'll find with this is that you can't work on BEHAVIOR and academics at the same time.  Like we're calling her an ABA tutor, but reality is one will be the goal and the other is the bonus.  So my ds gets ABA with some academics thrown in.  It's not academics with some ABA thrown in, if that makes sense.  I guess they could do that.  I'm just saying it's not what we're getting.  And my ds' behaviors were challenging enough (are challenging enough) that none of the academics are really in that "wow, let's explore Italy and have fun!" kind of realm.  It has to be more basic, concrete stuff.  I printed math worksheets from TCR.  I have dot to dots.  They do a science read aloud.  Anything that can be done with a timer, that is concrete. 

 

You'll get there! My DD has been doing ABA for 2 years 5 months now and at this point, she is at a functional level where they can work on both. It just took building the foundation (and medicating for her ADHD symptoms but we started with ABA only) to get to this point.

[PeterPan]

Crimson, it's improving.  It's just much more heavily weighted toward the behavior, sigh.  And any time we think we have it nailed, then it fluffs up again.  He had an awful day today.  I spent the evening (mentally) slapping myself, trying to figure out what I've forgotten about what tricks we had, what strategies, to get Mondays to go better with him.  He spent the day taping paper frantically and in the evening, even after 3 hours of gymnastics, wanted to be wrapped in blankets and swung. And it's so frustrating, because people act life if you're just FIRM, they'll get on board, be more consistent, blah blah.  

 

Do you go to church?  Do you do anything on Sundays to make Mondays go better?  Church is such a mess, because they're trying so hard to behave, and they come back whacked.  And then they're out of their routine, not dealing with demands, etc., so the next day they're off in their protective bubble.

Edited September 20, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[Lecka]

Right now I am going to Sunday School with my son, into the beginning of kids' worship (I miss special music), then he plays in the nursery and I go back to the worship service.

 

I can't blow up our whole day or following day for church attendance. It is too hard on the whole family... I have two other kids within 3 years of him and they need things to go well, too.

 

It is not ideal, but it is working for us right now.

[Lecka]

Well, it is better for my son, too. But a lot of times things that are better for him are also better for the whole family.

[Mom28GreatKids]

And sometimes they are whacked out for no reason at all. At least when it is Sunday afternoon and he is a basket case we can blame church, or Thursday afternoon we can blame a 3 hr trip to speech- his BT came Thursday afternoon and she got to deal with him. . . Lucky her. Anyway, today, there is nothing to blame his whack-out-ness. It just is . . .