How Well Do You Know the Subjects You're Teaching?

[shburks]

This comes from posts I frequently see on other homeschooling board:

 

Today I am learning algebra WITH my 8th-grader. No reason whatsoever to assume you can't understand something your child can, and no reason to assume that you need to know something in order to teach it.

 

Not necessarily math but often this is posted that you can teach a subject you don't know. This makes zero sense to me and actually seems like an argument against homeschooling rather than FOR it!

 

I have a Middle School Education degree with an emphasis in language arts and social studies. Guess which subjects I feel comfortable teaching my 7th grader? I took three different foreign languages between high school and college; I feel somewhat qualified to teach one of those. I did not enjoy math or science and while I did well in my classes, I didn't pursue any further classes than the minimum I needed and certainly don't know enough Algebra II or Geometry to teach it. I outsource these classes to people who have degrees in mathematics or sciences or, at the very least, have secondary education degrees and have more science and math background that I!

 

Am I wrong? Do others routinely teach subjects we don't know? I'm not referring to introductory Latin for elementary school but more along the lines of upper middle and high school.

[Garga]

I'm learning Biology along with my 9th grader and that's the only thing I'll be teaching him that I don't already know. 

 

I don't know Geometry, so I outsourced that this year (online class, teacher with 25 years of experience).  I don't know Spanish, so I outsourced that as well (in person class at a serious academic co-op, teacher with over 30 years of experience.)

 

Next year it'll be Alg II, Spanish, and Chemistry. 

 

I'm ok with teaching him Biology because, frankly, it's been rather easy to learn so far.  If I run into any issues, then I'm not sure exactly what I'll do.  Other than Bio, I am not comfortable teaching a high school level course that I am not well-versed in.

 

Well, hang on.  I do teach history (Am hx, World hx, civics) without being well-versed in those, but honestly, anyone can do those if they can read.  I do supplement with Great Courses so they're hearing from someone other than me.  I rely on the books to teach it.  I'm not sure I'd need to be a history major to be able to do a good job for history-type courses.  Others may disagree with me.

 

It's the language, science, and math that I think someone needs to be well-versed in to teach at upper levels.  I know I am not knowledgeable enough in those areas and feel I'm doing my sons a disservice to try to tackle those by learning alongside them.

 

I'm positive that many people would disagree with me.   And that's ok.

 

P.S.  He's taking Intro to Astronomy as an elective.  It is not heavy on the math.  I use Great Courses, Neil DeGrasse books, and he's joined the local Astronomy Club and has attended two lectures with them so far.  There are 7 to go for this school year.  This is how I outsource a non-core class. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by Garga

[regentrude]

I have always distinguished between teaching and facilitating.

 

To teach, I need subject expertise of a sufficient level to be able to clear up misconceptions, recognize mistakes, present a concept in different ways than the textbook, design and evaluate assignments that test precisely the concept I intend them to cover. This means that I am limited in my ability to teach to the subjects where I have this expertise at a sufficiently high level.

I can teach math, physics, German language, maybe introductory chemistry.

 

This does not mean I cannot facilitate my student's learning of other subjects! To facilitate, I need to be able to select appropriate resources and implement them. It means seeking out ways the student can find help if I cannot answer a question.

I facilitate history studies by bringing great college professors into our home via Great Courses lectures. I facilitate French learning by working side by side with DD through a textbook, do grammar exercises and write compositions. I cannot teach French, because I am not fluent and cannot identify and correct her mistakes - but I can recognize where we need the help of a tutor to progress, and where we need to outsource to courses with a fluent teacher.

 

Homeschooling, especially in the higher grades, requires the parent to be a facilitator - not to be a teacher of each individual subject.

But I consider the distinction between the two a very important one.

Edited September 15, 2016 by regentrude

[Garga]

I have always distinguished between teaching and facilitating.

 

To teach, I need subject expertise of a sufficient level to be able to clear up misconceptions, recognize mistakes, present a concept in different ways than the textbook, design and evaluate assignments that test precisely the concept I intend them to cover. This means that I am limited in my ability to teach to the subjects where I have this expertise at a sufficiently high level.

I can teach math, physics, German language, maybe introductory chemistry.

 

This does not mean I cannot facilitate my student's learning of other subjects! To facilitate, I need to be able to select appropriate resources and implement them. It means seeking out ways the student can find help if I cannot answer a question.

I facilitate history studies by bringing great college professors into our home via Great Courses lectures. I facilitate French learning by working side by side with DD through a textbook, do grammar exercises and write compositions. I cannot teach French, because I am not fluent and cannot identify and correct her mistakes - but I can recognize where we need the help of a tutor to progress, and where we need to outsource to courses with a fluent teacher.

 

Homeschooling, especially in the higher grades, requires the parent to be a facilitator - not to be a teacher of each individual subject.

But I consider the distinction between the two a very important one.

 

 

Yes!  This is how I do it, but didn't know it. 

 

I know a ton about writing.  I can easily (easily!) spot problems in his writing and why he's making them and how to fix them.  I can teach that.

 

I can facilitate World History and his Intro to Astronomy class, just like Regentrude said.  I use a lot more outside resources (like the astronomy club and Great Courses) for the classes I facilitate than for the ones I teach.

Edited September 15, 2016 by Garga

[Clemsondana]

I've wondered the same thing. I can understand working through something that you don't know well if there is some other authority - an online submission or objective test with answer key, for instance - so that you know that you've gotten the right answers (although you still might miss some nuance that isn't well explained in the book).  My husband and I are STEM PhDs, so we're fine with most science - even things that we don't know well are still in a science format that we're comfortable with.  My kids are still in elementary school, but I make sure that their co-op class choices include having somebody else to do foreign language most years and some sort of writing every other year starting around grade 3-4. I'll probably continue to do their science and math into high school, and I can do middle school history and basics like grammar just fine, but I don't feel 'expert' enough to teach creative writing on the level that I want them to know (although I'm good at passive voice science paper writing) and I'm not going to try to teach a foreign language that I don't know.  I know other people feel the same way about different subjects - I taught biology to the daughter of my son's writing teacher a few years ago.  

 

I think that sometimes it also depends on how much you think that your student needs to learn about a topic - many parents of students interested in health-related careers want their child to really learn science well, while parents of a child headed to a music conservatory may be more comfortable with a more cursory understanding of science. 

 

I wonder if some of the 'learning along with their child' are actually teaching the class or if, as regentrude says, they are 'facilitating' the class and learn some of what their student learns.  I've picked up all sorts of odds and ends of information helping my children with their activities (infield fly rule, bowing techniques on violin, types of karate blocks) and I'm sure that if they were taking classes that I worked through with them I'd learn a lot. 

Edited September 15, 2016 by ClemsonDana

[regentrude]

I think that sometimes it also depends on how much you think that your student needs to learn about a topic - many parents of students interested in health-related careers want their child to really learn science well, while parents of a child headed to a music conservatory may be more comfortable with a more cursory understanding of science. 

 

Glad you mentioned music learning, because this illustrates nicely the difference. I have often been criticized for distinguishing between teaching and facilitating, but on the example of music it is rather obvious:

nobody would think they can teach their child to play the violin if they can't play the violin themselves - nor would they dream of hiring a teacher who could not play. They can help the student learn, by enforcing practicing, providing an audience, giving encouragement, finding new music - but they cannot teach violin playing.

But also, nobody would misconstrue my argument to mean that it is not possible for homeschooled students to learn how to play an instrument.

 

I do not consider mathematics or writing to be any different.

Edited September 15, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

For some things being one step ahead is enough for a parent to learn alongside a child. However I had never taught my kids, I have only guide them as needed.

 

Is there anything academic up to 12th grade level that a parent can't learn alongside a child assuming the parent has no disability. I am not willing to learn French to teach DS11 French but I would happily get him the materials and pay for a tutor if he seriously pursue it. However hubby and I could have learn French alongside him, just that we are not keen to due to different interests.

 

I don't know any US history being a foreigner but I do know world history and European history. I could pick up a US history textbook and learn enough content to help my kids.

 

As a first year engineering undergrad, I was tutoring friends' cousins in high school calculus. So I was only a few months ahead in knowledge at most.

 

The volunteer teacher that teach AP German at my kids Saturday school had her students getting 5s. She is a school teacher teaching AP Chemistry. Her German class students cleared the Großes Deutsches Sprachdiplom exam and those that applied for overseas universities has gain admission to universities in Germany and Switzerland.

 

School teachers has taught subjects they have no knowledge off courtesy of the recession and general cost cutting. If a parent is willing to learn and teach his/her child(ren) why not.

[Runningmom80]

Well, theoretically I *know* the subjects up to the end of high school and whatever constitutes the general education requirements in a BA.  I certainly don't remember everything, especially when it comes to math.  So far, I'm just working a chapter ahead of DS in order to help him with pre-a.  (Which I do remember for the most part.  Geometry and statistics are another story. )  My husband is great at math so he has agreed to take over next year if we decide against an online class.  I'm almost positive DS will be doing AoPS online, but I do have a back up.  I could re-learn algebra, and maybe I remember most of it, but I don't like it, and I'm getting burned out. (That's a topic for another day.)

 

I do not have a teaching degree, so I will never be able to say I'm professionally equipped to teach anything to anyone.  I don't see anything wrong with a parent learning along side their child, if that approach is working.  As long as the child is learning, what difference does it make?

 

ETA:  I agree on the facilitating point.  Especially with GT kids, who surpass parents more quickly than NT kids, there's only so far we can take them. (Unless you are a PhD but even then the interest/subject has to line up.)

Edited September 15, 2016 by Runningmom80

[regentrude]

Just to mention another example that just occurred a few minutes ago in our home.

DS is studying calculus, and the question arose of proving that the derivative of the exponential function is the exponential function.

 

One can, of course, google that. And one can find five different proofs on Wikipedia. And one might consider the first proof that works out the limit of the quotient of differences straight forward to be short, concise and sufficient - unless one possesses enough subject expertise to spot the weak point of the proof that makes it non rigorous and useless. But I am quite certain that most people who learn alongside the student would not recognize the shortcoming, because it looks rather... persuasive.

[mathnerd]

It entirely depends on the educational goals of the parent. I believe that an academically rigorous education needs subject matter expertise on the part of the teacher.

 

no reason to assume that you need to know something in order to teach it.

 

I have seen many public schools (and private schools) in my area have seemingly random people teach specialized subjects too. Someone with a BA in Recreation was once teaching "computer science" and the PE coach doubled up as a geography teacher etc. I also have seen a rigorous private school hire someone unsuitable and thrust a lesson plan on them and ask them to follow it - claiming that the school's strengths came from its "methodology".

 

I strongly believe that a subject matter expert is the best person to teach any subject at a higher level - from Computer Programming to Shakespeare. Today, we have google, wikipedia, youtube etc to answer in depth questions - but, to bring an unique perspective as well as to bounce ideas off a person, I believe that the teacher has to have more subject matter knowledge than the pupil (in higher grades). I only teach the subjects that I have a college major/minor in. I do teach latin, spanish and french which I have zero knowledge of because I am multilingual, can pick up languages fast and my son is still in elementary stage. I will outsource all languages in a couple of years.

 

I cannot fathom being a martial arts teacher, a violin teacher, a chess teacher or a music composition teacher. I seek the very best teachers that I can find for those. I do "coach" my son in those activities based on the teacher's instructions and requirements at home. Similarly, I think that I will seek outside expertise (outsource) for academic subjects I have no background in.

Edited September 15, 2016 by mathnerd

[Clemsondana]

I don't think the discussion is that you need an education degree, but whether you need an education in the subject that you're trying to teach.  My high school students are completely capable of working through the textbook.  They could get a study guide and make sure that they're 'getting it right'.  But, I think that they get a better education in the subject taking the class from me because I know more than what is in the book.  I love my subject and bring in outside information that I've learned at seminars, upper level classes, or papers that I read for fun.  Students could do that on their own, but most are unlikely to, either because they lack the interest, the ability to read primary papers, or they don't know that the material is there to look for (for instance, they may not know that prions exist so they would never think to look them up). 

 

Parents could learn from a book/lecture series along with the student, and if parent and student are motivated they could learn all sorts of additional information. I think the question was asking if that's what most of us do.  For me, it varies.  If my child is interested beyond my ability to help, I'll get additional books or teachers.  If there's something that I don't think that I can do well (such as a foreign language), I'll sign them up for a class.  But, I've also heard parents say 'i don't really understand this, and we're working on it together'.  That seems to work for some families, but it's not something that I'm comfortable with for my family, so I get outside help.  I know that a highly motivated student might be able to teach themselves a language or to write well, but since one of my motivations for homeschooling is that I want my children to have teachers who are passionate and motivated and can expose my children to things that they (and I) may not know exist, I outsource some classes.  But, I've seen situations where the subject was something that the parent was fairly confident that their student wouldn't want/need to know and would take time away from a subject that they were passionate about and excel at, and I can understand why they were fine with the student learning those subjects at a more basic level. 

[Arcadia]

This thread remind's me of Hunter's comments on the Oldschooling thread, the undercurrents that if a parent does not outsource, the child gets a subpar education.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/613412-oldschooling-homeschool-for-high-school/

[Runningmom80]

This thread remind's me of Hunter's comments on the Oldschooling thread, the undercurrents that if a parent does not outsource, the child gets a subpar education.

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/613412-oldschooling-homeschool-for-high-school/

 

Yeah some of these posts are coming off kind of elitist.  (This is coming from someone who truly values knowledge and education.)

Edited September 15, 2016 by Runningmom80

[mathnerd]

 

Sure, it would be nice to be able to seek out tutors for every subject, but some can't afford to do that and many have been successful without doing that. 

If you cannot hire tutors or sign up your child for online classes (like AOPS) or send them to CC for specialized courses in high school, then obviously, you have to do the next best thing which might be to teach the subject yourself or let your child self-study. The OP asked "How well I know the subject that I am teaching" for which I gave the answer relevant to my case. All of this is my opinion and not relevant to anyone other than myself. I am only responding to the OP's question. I am not at all comfortable teaching subjects that I have no knowledge of. I also have to point out that I live in an area where there is a staggering amount of academic expertise and tutoring available, so I think that accessibility to those resources give me my point of view which might not be the case for every one.

 

I talked about the private/public schools in my area not having specialists teaching subjects - because I wanted to point out that non-specialists teaching a subject is not uncommon even in school settings, though I am posting from my iPad and don't like to type too much from it and did not mention that in detail.

Edited September 15, 2016 by mathnerd

[Dmmetler]

I outsource less for teaching expertise-there are lots of awesome resources out there for almost every subject, from Greaf Course DVDs to Coursera to textbooks written to the student to lots of trade books to digital labs and software and more when DD needs peers or just to keep my schedule reasonable.

 

FWIW, the things that we outsource most completely-the science stuff DD does with mentors is less outsourced and more that she finds resources, reads them, attends talks, and tries out her own research with the mentor suggesting resources and gently guiding. That is FAR different from most classes. One of DD's frustrations with the local Bio class she's doing is "I don't need someone to spend an hour telling me what mitosis and meiosis are"- and that's the kind of thing that her mentors let Campbell's biology or similar books teach. It is far more like what a homeschool parent-or, for that matter, what a graduate advisor does than like what a teacher does.

 

I don't outsource math because, so far, I can be DD's mentor there (and DH can go farther than I can). I do put DD in a literature class online because DD thrives on having someone else to talk to about the subject. She needs more than just me there-not because my expertise is inadequate, but because I'm 44, and my worldview is so different from hers.

 

As of right now, DD doesn't have a single subject completely outsourced except for tumbling/cheer. Even in subjects where DD is doing an online class, it's just one resource-usually the discussion component, but I'm adding to it at home.

 

If DD ends up going to the school she wants to go to, it's going to be hard to give up that control.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I learned a lot of stuff along the way with my kids.  As some of it gets harder I have had to take additional steps to keep up (like taking math classes at the CC).  Although at this point my older kid takes his math courses at the CC (he is ahead of me).  I still would like to try to keep up.

 

I don't really see myself as a teacher.  More of a facilitator.

[Crimson Wife]

 

I have a Middle School Education degree with an emphasis in language arts and social studies. Guess which subjects I feel comfortable teaching my 7th grader? I took three different foreign languages between high school and college; I feel somewhat qualified to teach one of those. I did not enjoy math or science and while I did well in my classes, I didn't pursue any further classes than the minimum I needed and certainly don't know enough Algebra II or Geometry to teach it. I outsource these classes to people who have degrees in mathematics or sciences or, at the very least, have secondary education degrees and have more science and math background that I!

 

Saying this gently, but this strikes me as "credentialism". Back several years ago when a court case put the legal status of homeschooling in CA into jeopardy, I looked into what it would take for me to get a secondary school science teaching credential in my state. It was 12 courses but of those, only 3 were subject-specific methods or student teaching. 9 of them were complete B.S. edu-babble like "The Multicultural Foundations of a Diverse Classroom". Yeah, that's not going to make me a better science teacher. Can you imagine if to become a dental hygienist, only 25% of the courses were on cleaning teeth and 75% were on how to interact with a diverse patient population, etc., etc.?

 

My SIL is a jr. high math teacher and she told me that her HIGH SCHOOL math courses were harder than anything she had to take to get her B.Ed. or even M.Ed.

[Guest]

Here's the stickey wicket, though....

 

If you think someone needs a degree to teach anything in the K-12 program...didn't YOU get taught by someone with a teaching degree?

 

Keep in mind that the truism that if you can't explain something, you don't really know it is...true.

 

And I'm literally LOLing at the absurdity of this question on the accelerated learner board. My 8 y/o kid knows more about birds than I even knew were things that could be known. Naw, man, I didn't teach him any of that. Neither did anyone else.

 

Teaching =/= learning. And learning is not necessarily the result of being taught.

 

 

I also think it's kind of a thing people say. Just to say things. I heard a woman say it once, about history. She holds a masters of history.

 

And while some people are failing their kid academically, it strikes me as unlikely to be the same people who sit down with their kid and work out all the problems in their eighth grader math book.

[Guest]

If you cannot hire tutors or sign up your child for online classes (like AOPS) or send them to CC for specialized courses in high school, then obviously, you have to do the next best thing which might be to teach the subject yourself or let your child self-study. .

 

::buzzer sound goes off::

 

Sometimes (often, depending~) teaching yourself or self-study for the student isn't the next best thing. Obviously.

Edited September 15, 2016 by OKBud

[SparklyUnicorn]

I am baffled though by the attitude that it's not possible to learn things without a teacher.  Now granted, it's certainly helpful and in some ways easier, but it is possible.  The hardest thing with self studying is staying motivated.  Nobody is there to tell you to read the next page in the book.  But as a homeschooling parent I tell my kid to read the next page in the book and that helps him.  If he gets stuck I'll find him help (has not happened yet). 

 

I bought my first computer when I was junior in college (1000 years ago).  At that point I had pretty much not touched a computer.  I can do a lot of things on the computer.  I've changed computer parts on various computers.  I've installed software.  I figured out various programs.  I did that all without a teacher!  How did that happen?  I was motivated to figure it out. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Some teachers have told me that their education was a lot about crowd control.  I give most teachers more credit than that, but probably they learn in large part on the job.  They get better at it.  Some are probably very natural.  And some suck and never get better at it.  I'm sure we have all encountered teachers of varying ability in the teaching department.

 

 

[Clemsondana]

I'm not sure that it's elitism or credentialism, but more about comfort and goals specific to each family.  At our co-op, the Latin teacher was homeschooled himself and teaches 2 subjects, ballroom dance (he has a studio where he teaches as his 'regular job') and Latin.  He doesn't have a credential, but he knows the subject.  I don't, and since I have no gift for languages and no desire to learn 2 new ones, I'd rather have him teach my son and another teacher, a native Spanish speaker, teach my daughter.  I'd do a reasonable job teaching clarinet, handbells, and how to read music because I have experience in those areas despite having no credentials; some of our co-op teachers have job experience in an area, for others it's a hobby, and for others, they just enjoy researching new areas and building classes.  Most of our co-op students choose courses based on their needs - some take just 1, some take a whole day.

 

I don't think that you need a teacher to learn - I learn about new things all of the time, and my kids learn plenty from books and documentaries.  I do think that it can be hard to learn a subject if you don't know where to start, and it can be hard to stay motivated.  It can also be difficult to know how deep is 'enough' to have a general knowledge - everybody is not going to be an expert in every subject.  If you're interested in a subject, you can probably learn it faster on your own than in a classroom setting, but you can probably learn it even faster if you have a 'content expert' to explain it to you, helping on the parts where you get confused. 

 

I really don't think that it's one size fits all for students, either.  It's fine for a student to decide to skim the surface of some topics and dive deeply into others.  It's fine for families to work through subjects together.  It's also fine for families to decide that the more efficient thing is to get the help of somebody who knows more.  That might be through a recorded lecture, something more interactive like an online class, or something personal like an individual tutor.  I know families that swap expertise, art lessons for math tutoring.  But, the question wasn't 'What is a valid approach?' but 'What do you do?', and I think that many people answered from their own experience.  I know that I would rather spend my time learning new science material to share with my students while letting somebody else handle the language classes for my own children, but other families can make different choices.   

[slackermom]

In elementary school, the best public schoolteacher my daughter had was someone who did not understand math as well as my daughter did, but the teacher was happy to provide higher level resources and get out of my daughter's way. I knew enough about math that I caught the teacher's erroneous information and redirected my daughter as needed. It was a bit of a lesson for dd, at 7, to realize her otherwise fabulous teacher was not all-knowing. It also gave me more courage to try homeschooling.

[Guest]

The question "what do you do" was sandwiched between a bunch of other stuff.

[luuknam]

I see someone with a BA in Recreation teaching computer science in a public or private school setting completely differently than a parent who works with their child, knows their needs, teaches them and then hands the reins over to the student or outsources it.  The teacher with the BA and no interest in computer science doesn't really care about whether or not the student succeeds. Parents who homeschool, at least ideally, do care and provide help when needed.

 

That's a little unfair to at least *some* of those people out there. My calculus prof in college told the class about a high school football coach who was in his class for several semesters in a row (yes, the same Calc I class), because he got assigned to teach AP Calculus. He kept coming back for more semesters of Calc I until he got 100% on every test, because he thought he should know the subject if he was teaching it (obviously, he was teaching it all those semesters as well). As far as I can tell from the story, it wasn't that the guy had any inherent interest in calculus - just that he had a strong sense of ethics.

Edited September 15, 2016 by luuknam

[regentrude]

Wait. Are we seriously having the "you need an education degree to teach" discussion on the Accelerated Board?  :confused1:   :confused1:

 

No. We are having the "you need to have subject expertise to teach" discussion.

 

An education degree does not mean the teacher knows anything about the subject. 

But yes, without knowing the subject I cannot teach, I can only facilitate my student's learning of the material.

Edited September 15, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

I am baffled though by the attitude that it's not possible to learn things without a teacher.  

 

Who said that? I have not read any post that said one cannot learn without a teacher.

I have only read statements that a teacher cannot teach what he does not know.

[Runningmom80]

I'm reading The Smartest Kids in the World right now, and to get an education degree in the US does not require one to be overly studious.  There was a story about a math teacher in Oklahoma who said his program allowed an ACT score of 19 to get in, while the national average was 20.something. You could score below average and still be accepted.  His educational scholarship allowed him to make a 2.70 GPA to keep it.  He wanted to be a high school math teacher so he could coach football.  He didn't even have to major in math, so he didn't.

 

I'm not concerned at all about not having a teaching degree.  I know brilliant teachers and I know teachers who had to take our high school "9th grade proficiency" exam all the way to the last semester of senior year and then mysteriously passed, so I know not every kid in public school has "experts" teaching them. 

 

I do try to stay on top of math only because I don't want my avoidance of it to rub off on my kids, but other than that, I don't need to be an expert.  When the time comes that my kids need more than what I'm giving them, we will try to facilitate higher learning through outsourcing, but I have 3 kids on one income, we don't have thousands of dollars a year for outsourced classes.  I also think there is value in figuring things out on your own.  My oldest is an autodidact anyways, he really doesn't want me, or anyone for that matter meddling with his learning too much.

[Runningmom80]

No. We are having the "you need to have subject expertise to teach" discussion.

 

An education degree does not mean the teacher knows anything about the subject. 

But yes, without knowing the subject I cannot teach, I can only facilitate my student's learning of the material.

 

I agree with this, and I see nothing wrong with facilitating instead of teaching, even without outsourcing. 

[Wheres Toto]

I don't think a homeschooling parent has to know everything their kids want to learn but I do think they should be aware of their own limitations (and possibly their kids limitations regarding self-learning) so they know when to outsource.

 

Math is one of those subjects that can be really hard to explain to someone else if you don't understand it really well.  If I didn't feel comfortable teaching beyond say, Algebra 1 I might see if my kid is "mathy" enough that he's able to learn it on his own from the great resources that are available, but I would also probably have a plan B in mind that involved finding someone better at math to teach him.  By extension, subjects that require a lot of math like physics or chemistry, would also be very hard to teach by someone with little or no knowledge of them.  

 

Subjects that  are more learning/memorizing content are a lot easier to teach even if you don't have the background or knowledge yourself, IMO.  These would require more facilitation than teaching because it's just presenting the information and having them do what it takes to remember it. 

 

My plan (which could change, my kids are 11 and 9) is to TEACH math through pre-calculus, any science except physics, all history, literature, and I'm sure a few things I'm not thinking of, at home.   Subjects like writing, I anticipate outsourcing once we get to a certain point.   Higher math and physics will be outsourced or taught by dh.   I do not have any confidence in my ability to teach my kids are real, in-depth understanding of these subjects.   

 

I think the example above of trying to teach them to play violin is accurate.  I can read music and probably teach the mechanics of keyboard, but I am tone deaf and not a musician so we wouldn't be able to get very far.  If either of them wanted a career in music, I would be doing them a great disservice by trying to handle it myself.

[regentrude]

I agree with this, and I see nothing wrong with facilitating instead of teaching, even without outsourcing. 

 

But the line between "facilitating" and "outsourcing" is really blurry.

If I bring Dr. Vandiver into my home via Great Courses CD to facilitate history learning, I am outsourcing the teaching of history to her. She is giving us her brilliant lectures and providing us with discussion prompts. For all practical purposes, I have outsourced our history studies to her - and the many other brilliant teachers with strong subject expertise to whose lectures we have listened.

 

Had we gone to a physical campus for this, everybody would consider it "outsourcing".

Had we signed up and paid for an online program that used such lectures, that would be considered "outsourcing" too.

Instead, we listen to her lectures in the car and learn from her on our drives. There really is not much of a difference.

Fact is: SHE is the one doing the teaching. My contribution was solely finding and purchasing the CDs.

[maize]

That's a little unfair to at least *some* of those people out there. My calculus prof in college told the class about a high school football coach who was in his class for several semesters in a row (yes, the same Calc I class), because he got assigned to teach AP Calculus. He kept coming back for more semesters of Calc I until he got 100% on every test, because he thought he should know the subject if he was teaching it (obviously, he was teaching it all those semesters as well). As far as I can tell from the story, it wasn't that the guy had any inherent interest in calculus - just that he had a strong sense of ethics.

Neat story, and I bet that football coach was a great math teacher.

[Arcadia]

Fact is: SHE is the one doing the teaching. My contribution was solely finding and purchasing the CDs.

For me the outsourcing part is when someone else does the explaining when a child is stuck/confused and someone does the grading.

 

For example, my kids use Thinkwell Chem as the spine and likes it. However, if they are unclear about any concepts, I'm still the one explaining. If my kids were attending a lecture by Terence Cao in a course instead of using the homeschool version, I would have ask them to email him for clarifications.

 

On the other hand, their German is outsourced. If they are unclear, they email their teacher or wait to ask in class. I have the answer key from their teacher but I won't have been able to explain why the answer key is better. There is a parent who attended the adult class while her children where in the beginners german class. She was learning German alongside her kids at a faster pace class because the school gave a hardship fee waiver. So if they have to stop for financial reasons, they would have just continued with the next book in the curriculum series at home.

[lewelma]

There is another path between facilitating and teaching. It is being a co-learner. And there are clear benefits to being a co-learner over a teacher.  I studied *with* my older son when he was 12 for nine months to prepare for the Math Olympiad Camp Selection Exam. This was absolutely NOT me learning ahead and teaching him, rather this was us struggling together.  Yes, he had to learn the content of number theory and combinatorics, but more importantly he had to learn olympiad problem solving skills, skills that I had never even heard of.  We worked together to figure out what tools were available, when to use them, how to solve problems, and I wrote this paragraph on this board more than 3 years ago:

 

April 2013: “I told someone last week that I could only go through this process once because what I am giving my son is not a knowledgeable tutor, but rather a skilled learner who is at his exact level in math. If I ever go through this material again with a student, I would be much much more knowledgeable and I would loose the confusion that has been so critical in helping him battle through this material. What I am finding is that because I don't know the answers and I cannot teach him how to do it, I am instead teaching him how to learn problem solving -- what questions to ask, what answer to hunt for, how to compare problems, how to really interact with this material. No tutor who knows the material well could do this as well as I can, because once you have the knowledge, it would be virtually impossible to relive the confusion. “ http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/468033-a-small-math-success-but-huge-for-us/

 

Interesting to read.  I was not a teacher, but I was also clearly not a facilitator.  As I saw it at the time, I was a skilled co-learner, and it was *exactly* what he needed.

 

I am having this same type of interaction with my younger right now with sight reading music.  For his violin exam, he has to sight read some complicated music, and I have never seen a music tutor who can teach a kid to do it -- they just kind of assume that kids will pick it up and mine hasn’t.  I think it is just so second nature to a skilled musician, that it is impossible to break down the task into bite-sized skills to master, or even to identify *where* exactly the problem lies.  So I am learning to sight read on the piano concurrently with ds who is on the violin.  By learning it *at the same time* I am able to identify what is tricky for us, and how we can fill the gaps. What little tricks work, and what don't.  What we need to watch out for and where we have finally mastered something. Step by step we are coming up with systems and solutions, things that I have never read about or seen another teacher try to teach.  It is the same situation as with the Math Olympiad.  It is the co-learning that high-lights the gaps, the systems, the solutions.  And these things are rarely if ever written down or taught explicitly. Being a co-learner allows you to see the content from a student perspective rather than a teacher perspective, and it is totally different and in my eyes a way more useful method for learning in some situations, perhaps not as efficient, but in the long run more effective.

 

There is also another reason to be a co-learner rather than a teacher.  And I have been hired at $50/hr to co-learn subjects where I have no subject matter expertise including Organic Chemistry and English.  I was hired because some students are very sensitive to feeling stupid.  They don’t want me to have all the answers.  They want to watch me study the material with them -- to look up answers, to make flash cards, to get it wrong and not be scared of my mistakes.  They need *more* than the content, they need to know and to observe that it is *normal* to struggle to learn the material.  They need to *see* a skilled learner in action. I have come to believe that this is critical for a very large percentage of students, including my own two kids. 

 

So from the point of view of the OP, I fully support co-learning and it has been an integral part of teaching both of my gifted kids and a number of my tutorees.

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited September 16, 2016 by lewelma

[SparklyUnicorn]

Who said that? I have not read any post that said one cannot learn without a teacher.

I have only read statements that a teacher cannot teach what he does not know.

 

mathnerd said if you can't hire teachers and tutors in high school then you do the next best thing....who says that to a bunch of people who are for the most part homeschoolers? 

 

But no the sentiment isn't so strong here on a board filled with homeschoolers.  I mean the attitudes I encounter regularly outside of homeschool message boards.  Although I have encountered it here.  

 

And I know you already mentioned this on another post, but the difference between my degree and a teacher with a degree is basically I don't have courses in classroom management.  Teachers have about as much knowledge in any subject as anyone with a 4 year degree.  Many high school teachers have a bit more than that, but not a ton more.  They rarely are experts. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

True.  This describes me too.  I didn't see how I was going to really stay on top of things the way I wanted to without learning along with my kids. 

 

 

There is another path between facilitating and teaching. It is being a co-learner. And there are clear benefits to being a co-learner over a teacher.  I studied *with* my older son when he was 12 for nine months to prepare for the Math Olympiad Camp Selection Exam. This was absolutely NOT me learning ahead and teaching him, rather this was us struggling together.  Yes, he had to learn the content of number theory and combinatorics, but more importantly he had to learn olympiad problem solving skills, skills that I had never even heard of.  We worked together to figure out what tools were available, when to use them, how to solve problems, and I wrote this paragraph on this board more than 3 years ago:

 

April 2013: “I told someone last week that I could only go through this process once because what I am giving my son is not a knowledgeable tutor, but rather a skilled learner who is at his exact level in math. If I ever go through this material again with a student, I would be much much more knowledgeable and I would loose the confusion that has been so critical in helping him battle through this material. What I am finding is that because I don't know the answers and I cannot teach him how to do it, I am instead teaching him how to learn problem solving -- what questions to ask, what answer to hunt for, how to compare problems, how to really interact with this material. No tutor who knows the material well could do this as well as I can, because once you have the knowledge, it would be virtually impossible to relive the confusion. “ http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/468033-a-small-math-success-but-huge-for-us/

 

Interesting to read.  I was not a teacher, but I was also clearly not a facilitator.  As I saw it at the time, I was a skilled co-learner, and it was *exactly* what he needed.

 

I am having this same type of interaction with my younger right now with sight reading music.  For his violin exam, he has to sight read some complicated music, and I have never seen a music tutor who can teach a kid to do it -- they just kind of assume that kids will pick it up and mine hasn’t.  I think it is just so second nature to a skilled musician, that it is impossible to break down the task into bite-sized skills to master, or even to identify *where* exactly the problem lies.  So I am learning to sight read on the piano concurrently with ds who is on the violin.  By learning it *at the same time* I am able to identify what is tricky for us, and how we can fill the gaps. What little tricks work, and what don't.  What we need to watch out for and where we have finally mastered something. Step by step we are coming up with systems and solutions, things that I have never read about or seen another teacher try to teach.  It is the same situation as with the Math Olympiad.  It is the co-learning that high-lights the gaps, the systems, the solutions.  And these things are rarely if ever written down or taught explicitly. Being a co-learner allows you to see the content from a student perspective rather than a teacher perspective, and it is totally different and in my eyes a way more useful method for learning in some situations, perhaps not as efficient, but in the long run more effective.

 

There is also another reason to be a co-learner rather than a teacher.  And I have been hired at $50/hr to co-learn subjects where I have no subject matter expertise including Organic Chemistry and English.  I was hired because some students are very sensitive to feeling stupid.  They don’t want me to have all the answers.  They want to watch me study the material with them -- to look up answers, to make flash cards, to get it wrong and not be scared of my mistakes.  They need *more* than the content, they need to know and to observe that it is *normal* to struggle to learn the material.  They need to *see* a skilled learner in action. I have come to believe that this is critical for a very large percentage of students, including my own two kids. 

 

So from the point of view of the OP, I fully support co-learning and it has been an integral part of teaching both of my gifted kids and a number of my tutorees.

 

Ruth in NZ

 

[shburks]

I don't think a homeschooling parent has to know everything their kids want to learn but I do think they should be aware of their own limitations (and possibly their kids limitations regarding self-learning) so they know when to outsource.

 

Yes, I think this is what I was saying--perhaps poorly posted! In the example I gave, this mom was learning Algebra I alongside her child. I have seen this posted multiple times in regards to various subjects, and I just wonder if they are doing their child a disservice by not recognizing their limitations as a parent.

 

I have always distinguished between teaching and facilitating.

 

To teach, I need subject expertise of a sufficient level to be able to clear up misconceptions, recognize mistakes, present a concept in different ways than the textbook, design and evaluate assignments that test precisely the concept I intend them to cover. This means that I am limited in my ability to teach to the subjects where I have this expertise at a sufficiently high level.

I can teach math, physics, German language, maybe introductory chemistry.

 

This does not mean I cannot facilitate my student's learning of other subjects! To facilitate, I need to be able to select appropriate resources and implement them. It means seeking out ways the student can find help if I cannot answer a question.

I facilitate history studies by bringing great college professors into our home via Great Courses lectures. I facilitate French learning by working side by side with DD through a textbook, do grammar exercises and write compositions. I cannot teach French, because I am not fluent and cannot identify and correct her mistakes - but I can recognize where we need the help of a tutor to progress, and where we need to outsource to courses with a fluent teacher.

 

Homeschooling, especially in the higher grades, requires the parent to be a facilitator - not to be a teacher of each individual subject.

But I consider the distinction between the two a very important one.

 

This is what I'm doing but I had never put it in these words before! I completely agree with the need to be more of a facilitator in the higher grades.

 

It entirely depends on the educational goals of the parent. I believe that an academically rigorous education needs subject matter expertise on the part of the teacher.

Me, too. That was my question I suppose--was I the only one who felt this way!

 

I don't think the discussion is that you need an education degree, but whether you need an education in the subject that you're trying to teach.  

 

 

Yes, ClemsonDana. That is absolutely what I meant! I didn't mean to insinuate that only licensed educators or those with education degrees should be teaching/homeschooling! I was giving my personal background which just happens to be in education; I also had almost enough credits for a minor in music education! Certainly we all know people who have college degrees but life has taken them down a different pathway and they now have a vast amount of information in another subject! Perhaps that could be a sociology major who is now a computer game designer or science major who is now a pilot. These people are certainly more qualified to teach computer programming/game design and aerodynamics.

 

I think this was a good discussion overall; thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[SparklyUnicorn]

It entirely depends on the educational goals of the parent. I believe that an academically rigorous education needs subject matter expertise on the part of the teacher.

 

 

 

In that case most kids aren't going to get this in a public school and probably not in most private schools. They don't hire subject matter experts.

[Guest]

Certainly we all know people who have college degrees but life has taken them down a different pathway and they now have a vast amount of information in another subject!

 

 

But, look, if they did not learn it in school, being taught, where/why/how did they learn it? This is the point. They learned however it was necessary to learn, because they wanted or needed to learn. Not because their many teachers taught them.

 

You are seeing pushback from this query because, in the first place, you started a whole thread to question several someone's ability to homeschool. Oh no wait....because you think several someones aren't being aware of her limitations.... But also, mostly, because so many of us have whole-heartedly lived our lives as parent educators with the mantra that "education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire" front and center.

 

We don't pour knowledge into our receptacle-children. Therefore it's not a prerequisite for us to be standing over their buckets, with out own full buckets poised to be tipped into them, or otherwise find someone with a bucket full o' facts to dump into that kid.

 

It is extremely obvious that sometimes kids and other human beans will learn sundry things from folks that are not their parents. But it does not follow from that, that everything must be TAUGHT at all, much less by experienced experts.

 

[shburks]

But, look, if they did not learn it in school, being taught, where/why/how did they learn it? This is the point. They learned however it was necessary to learn, because they wanted or needed to learn. Not because their many teachers taught them.

 

You are seeing pushback from this query because, in the first place, you started a whole thread to question several someone's ability to homeschool. Oh no wait....because you think several someones aren't being aware of her limitations.... But also, mostly, because so many of us have whole-heartedly lived our lives as parent educators with the mantra that "education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire" front and center.

 

We don't pour knowledge into our receptacle-children. Therefore it's not a prerequisite for us to be standing over their buckets, with out own full buckets poised to be tipped into them, or otherwise find someone with a bucket full o' facts to dump into that kid.

 

It is extremely obvious that sometimes kids and other human beans will learn sundry things from folks that are not their parents. But it does not follow from that, that everything must be TAUGHT at all, much less by experienced experts.

 

Perhaps... but my point is that these people likely have a lot of experience at this point. Not that they learned how to program yesterday and are now trying to teach my child today. I totally realize that some people/children have the ability to learn on their own or learn through other resources. The person with the science degree now piloting military aircraft didn't teach himself how to do that--he spent over a year with experts learning how to safely fly and land the plane. 

 

I don't think I'm seeing pushback honestly. I think this has been an overall good discussion.

 

I didn't question anyone's ability to homeschool; I questioned whether or not someone learning Algebra I (or similar type subject) can effectively teach it to a child by staying one day ahead. Perhaps this child is very self-motivated; perhaps they learn simply by reading the book...or perhaps this child is struggling to understand Algebra I and mom doesn't have all the tools to give because she doesn't have a deep understanding of Algebra I either.

 

I questioned whether or not a parent is doing a child a disservice by not seeking out others (whether that's a live class, DIVE videos, Kahn Academy) to teach or help teach a subject that you do not have a deep understanding or subject expertise especially as the child moves toward high school courses and preparing for college.

 

I certainly did not say nor did I mean to imply that everything must be taught; children pick up concepts in many ways--hands on, videos, reading a book, working through problems on their own.

[Guest]

 

I didn't question anyone's ability to homeschool; I questioned whether or not someone learning Algebra I (or similar type subject) can effectively teach it to a child by staying one day ahead. Perhaps this child is very self-motivated; perhaps they learn simply by reading the book...or perhaps this child is struggling to understand Algebra I and mom doesn't have all the tools to give because she doesn't have a deep understanding of Algebra I either.

 

I questioned whether or not a parent is doing a child a disservice by not seeking out others (whether that's a live class, DIVE videos, Kahn Academy) to teach or help teach a subject that you do not have a deep understanding or subject expertise especially as the child moves toward high school courses and preparing for college.

 

I certainly did not say nor did I mean to imply that everything must be taught; children pick up concepts in many ways--hands on, videos, reading a book, working through problems on their own.

 

Yeah, we are saying the same thing irt what you're questioning.

[Dmmetler]

Piggybacking on Ruth, I think one reason why DD's bio explorations have been so successful is because I'm not the expert. I am right there learning with her, attending the conferences and talks, involved in the discussions. I am, essentially, her lab partner/research colleague. Now, we have a lot of experts we call on, but a lot of the discussion is the two of us, learning and exploring together. It works. Well enough that one of the things that makes me hesitant to make the move to her being taught by experts completely because I suspect she would lose the depth we've been able to make it to on the field work and research side.

[shburks]

Piggybacking on Ruth, I think one reason why DD's bio explorations have been so successful is because I'm not the expert. I am right there learning with her, attending the conferences and talks, involved in the discussions. I am, essentially, her lab partner/research colleague. Now, we have a lot of experts we call on, but a lot of the discussion is the two of us, learning and exploring together. It works. Well enough that one of the things that makes me hesitant to make the move to her being taught by experts completely because I suspect she would lose the depth we've been able to make it to on the field work and research side.

 

I love this actually! What I love is that you ARE learning it with her but not trying to solely teach her. This makes sense to me.

[Runningmom80]

Perhaps... but my point is that these people likely have a lot of experience at this point. Not that they learned how to program yesterday and are now trying to teach my child today. I totally realize that some people/children have the ability to learn on their own or learn through other resources. The person with the science degree now piloting military aircraft didn't teach himself how to do that--he spent over a year with experts learning how to safely fly and land the plane. 

 

I don't think I'm seeing pushback honestly. I think this has been an overall good discussion.

 

I didn't question anyone's ability to homeschool; I questioned whether or not someone learning Algebra I (or similar type subject) can effectively teach it to a child by staying one day ahead. Perhaps this child is very self-motivated; perhaps they learn simply by reading the book...or perhaps this child is struggling to understand Algebra I and mom doesn't have all the tools to give because she doesn't have a deep understanding of Algebra I either.

 

I questioned whether or not a parent is doing a child a disservice by not seeking out others (whether that's a live class, DIVE videos, Kahn Academy) to teach or help teach a subject that you do not have a deep understanding or subject expertise especially as the child moves toward high school courses and preparing for college.

 

I certainly did not say nor did I mean to imply that everything must be taught; children pick up concepts in many ways--hands on, videos, reading a book, working through problems on their own.

 

Aren't you, in effect, questioning one's ability to homeschool by questioning if they are an effective teacher?

 

ETA: Not trying to fight over semantics here or split hairs, I'm legitimately trying to understand.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Runningmom80

[Arcadia]

I questioned whether or not a parent is doing a child a disservice by not seeking out others (whether that's a live class, DIVE videos, Kahn Academy) to teach or help teach a subject that you do not have a deep understanding or subject expertise especially as the child moves toward high school courses and preparing for college.

Sometimes it is a parent making do with what they have. There are people on these boards that has dial up internet, and are far from libraries and community colleges. They might also be in financial hardship.

 

I stay within walking distance to a library well equipped with computers, free WiFi and shelves of Great Courses DVDs. Getting resources is very easy for me.

 

My kids have tutors with teaching credentials and PhDs in the subject. Some are still not a good fit.

 

Edited for typing mistakes.

Edited September 16, 2016 by Arcadia

[quark]

nm

Edited September 16, 2016 by quark

[mathnerd]

mathnerd said if you can't hire teachers and tutors in high school then you do the next best thing....who says that to a bunch of people who are for the most part homeschoolers? 

 

Lots of thoughts get lost when one is trying to explain one's point of view as applied to one's own situation as well as interspersing them with other posts: If it matters, here are my clarifications:

1. If the homeschooling parent has no clue whatsoever about a subject - e.g. Organic Chemistry in my case - and does not have the resources to send their child to a CC or an online class, does not have the resources to attend this class themselves, does not have the background/time to co-learn it with the child, does not have ability to outsource (See my definition of outsourcing below), child does not have the ability to master specialized subjects of this kind on their own, then selflearning is the "next best" option to outsourcing - in my opinion. I prefer that my child gets his education in Organic Chemistry from a person with educational background in that area than me who does not remember much of that subject. 

 

2. My definition of outsourcing: Outsourcing == your child learns subject matter from a tutor/teacher who studied the subject in the past.

You can outsource to a person or someone in cyberspace (DVDs, MOOCs count too)!

My definition of outsourcing includes co-op classes, tutoring, online classes, Dual Enrollment classes, CC classes, AOPS classes, WTMA classes, friend or mentor with a PhD helping out, Khan academy, Online High School, Great Courses, MIT Open Courseware etc. These sources == Subject matter Expertise in my opinion.

These outsourcing options that I mentioned are universally used in the high school level. Many parents use multiple options listed above for a single subject. Though some of them might lack live interaction (e.g. Khan academy) the teaching is still outsourced to someone on cyberspace (time-delayed, pre-recorded).

Is there a problem perceived in my post because I categorized these options as learning from an "expert" while others consider them as a part of self-learning?

 

3. My opinions only apply to High School and Post-AP level subjects.

 

4. All of the above are my own opinions.

 

5. I am not talking about Teacher Credentialing - I am not looking for such qualifications when I outsource.

 

6. My son who is a reluctant writer (motor control issues) and an even more reluctant artist is being mentored now by a local artist who is pretty good at what he does. The change I see in my son's abilities because he is learning from an expert who has domain knowledge is phenomenal. I believe that someone with great expertise and passion for their subject area can change the way a student thinks about a subject. This is the outcome that I seek when I set out to "outsource".

 

7. No offense intended in my posts.

Edited September 16, 2016 by mathnerd

[regentrude]

 

1. If the homeschooling parent has no clue whatsoever about a subject - e.g. Organic Chemistry in my case - and does not have the resources to send their child to a CC or an online class, does not have the resources to attend this class themselves, does not have the background/time to co-learn it with the child, does not have ability to outsource (See my definition of outsourcing below), child does not have the ability to master specialized subjects of this kind on their own, then selflearning is the "next best" option to outsourcing - in my opinion. I prefer that my child gets his education in Organic Chemistry from a person with educational background in that area than me who does not remember much of that subject. 

 

2. My definition of outsourcing: Outsourcing == your child learns subject matter from a tutor/teacher who studied the subject in the past.

You can outsource to a person or someone in cyberspace (DVDs, MOOCs count too)!

My definition of outsourcing includes co-op classes, tutoring, online classes, Dual Enrollment classes, CC classes, AOPS classes, WTMA classes, friend or mentor with a PhD helping out, Khan academy, Online High School, Great Courses, MIT Open Courseware etc. These sources == Subject matter Expertise in my opinion.

These outsourcing options that I mentioned are universally used in the high school level. Many parents use multiple options listed above for a single subject. Though some of them might lack live interaction (e.g. Khan academy) the teaching is still outsourced to someone on cyberspace (time-delayed, pre-recorded).

Is there a problem perceived in my post because I categorized these options as learning from an "expert" while others consider them as a part of self-learning?

 

 

mathnerd, I think the bolded is the issue here. I consider using MOOCs and GC outsourcing, too, because the teaching is done by an expert who is not the parent.

I suspect part of the disagreement stems from the fact that the people who got offended at your statement think of oursourcing solely as expensive college classes or private tutors.

[regentrude]

Aren't you, in effect, questioning one's ability to homeschool by questioning if they are an effective teacher?

 

ETA: Not trying to fight over semantics here or split hairs, I'm legitimately trying to understand.

 

Runningmom,

I think the issue here is exactly one of semantics.

 

People have different definitions of "teaching" and "outsourcing".

I tried to state precisely what I mean when I use this terms, and mathnerd is doing the same.

I don't think there actually is any disagreement - we are just using different terminology.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Which high schools offer organic chemistry?  I guess I thought we were talking about homeschooling courses offered in elementary/high schools.  The regular courses.  Not special courses or courses that are at highly advanced levels.