AOPS difficulty question

[lewber]

DS is in 8th grade and we are in a state where high school math is labeled Math 1, Math 2, Math 3, Calculus. Math 1, 2 and 3 are mix/spiral type classes and it's hard for me to figure out what they are doing each year as compared to when I was in school and the sequence was Algebra 1, Algebra 2/Trig, Pre Calc, Calc. DS is in public school, we are not home schoolers.

 

Anyway, DS is in 8th grade and advanced one year in math. His textbook last year was titled Algebra 1. This year as an eighth grader he is taking high school Math 1 Honors. I was concerned that he did not get a good Algebra base (1st year teacher - concept questions from DS) and enrolled him in AOPS Introduction to Algebra to do this semester. It is hard. He has only had two classes - basically exponents and radicals, and he did not have nearly enough experience with either concept to do the homework without doing all the reading and watching all the videos. He is doing well in the class, but what I was thinking might being more of a review to pick up a couple concepts he missed last year is turning into a full time rigorous class. That's fine, he is really enjoying it and obviously learning new material, and I am having fun doing it along with him.

 

My question is - is AOPS that much more involved and challenging than most public school Algebra classes? Or do you think his class was really just lacking? Has anyone done AOPS as an afterschooler on top of regular public school schedule through high school?  He's only had two classes, and I'd say the homework is taking him about 5-6 hours a week so far. Is that typical? 

[Arcadia]

Is the AoPS intro to algebra book the first book he read in the AoPS series? The exponents chapter in the AoPS prealgebra book is good. I do think the prealgebra book is worth getting. My kids kept their worn out books as reference. Many WTMers mentioned AoPS prealgebra book chapter 2 exponents was hard.

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/videos/prealgebra

 

AoPS class homework taking 5-6 hours a week is normal.

 

My kids did the AoPS books as afterschoolers when they were with an online public charter in upper elementary. They did the AoPS classes when we switch to homeschooling because they want the social aspect. The AoPS books went deeper than the K12 customized for California standards books my kids used while using the public charter. However exponents and radicals were covered either before or during algebra 1. That was 3 years ago so I forgot the exact scope and sequence.

[lewber]

This is the first AOPS book/class he has seen. He is doing the online class. Interesting they covered that in Pre-Algebra. Maybe as the class continues, he will recognize more material. I will look into getting him the Pre-algebra book for reference. I noticed on the Alcamus questions, many of them said level - Pre Algebra. 

It could just be timing differences in when classes introduce materials. I'm just glad he is learning it somewhere!

 

[JoJosMom]

DS is in 8th grade and we are in a state where high school math is labeled Math 1, Math 2, Math 3, Calculus. Math 1, 2 and 3 are mix/spiral type classes and it's hard for me to figure out what they are doing each year as compared to when I was in school and the sequence was Algebra 1, Algebra 2/Trig, Pre Calc, Calc. DS is in public school, we are not home schoolers.

 

Anyway, DS is in 8th grade and advanced one year in math. His textbook last year was titled Algebra 1. This year as an eighth grader he is taking high school Math 1 Honors. I was concerned that he did not get a good Algebra base (1st year teacher - concept questions from DS) and enrolled him in AOPS Introduction to Algebra to do this semester. It is hard. He has only had two classes - basically exponents and radicals, and he did not have nearly enough experience with either concept to do the homework without doing all the reading and watching all the videos. He is doing well in the class, but what I was thinking might being more of a review to pick up a couple concepts he missed last year is turning into a full time rigorous class. That's fine, he is really enjoying it and obviously learning new material, and I am having fun doing it along with him.

 

My question is - is AOPS that much more involved and challenging than most public school Algebra classes? Or do you think his class was really just lacking? Has anyone done AOPS as an afterschooler on top of regular public school schedule through high school?  He's only had two classes, and I'd say the homework is taking him about 5-6 hours a week so far. Is that typical? 

 

Yes.

 

(The answer really is that simple.)

 

[Arcadia]

I noticed on the Alcamus questions, many of them said level - Pre Algebra.

It could just be timing differences in when classes introduce materials. I'm just glad he is learning it somewhere!

The first 5 chapters of intro to algebra are review chapters for prealgebra if I didn't remember wrongly.

 

ETA:

The first 4 chapters of intermediate algebra are review. Not sure about intro to algebra book as it is not stated.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Arcadia

[Dmmetler]

Yes, I agree here. The first five chapter of Intro Algebra were fairly straight review of the AOPS PA. The PA chapter on Exponents...well, I thought that either my DD or I wouldn't get out of it alive. (We use the books at home, not the classes). It was the first time in her life that she'd hit something she didn't know how to do or get right away, and she freaked out. Because she freaked out in AOPS PA, she didn't freak out nearly so badly in AOPS Algebra when she met something she didn't know how to do or get right away.

 

And yes, it is that hard.

[Mike in SA]

DS14 only does AoPS after completing the same content in a traditional textbook, because of the difficulty.

 

DS10 never learned the "easy" route, so AoPS and Kiselev (the geometry equivalent of AoPS on steroids) are his norm.  He does everything independently now, including every challenger.  Funny thing is that when we do give him a standard test (from other courses), they are so easy that he gets stumped trying to figure out where the hidden tricks are.  There's never a hidden trick - he just can't understand that problems can be that easy and still be called problems.

[regentrude]

My question is - is AOPS that much more involved and challenging than most public school Algebra classes?

YES.

Fro the AoPS website:

"Our curriculum is specifically designed for high-performing math students in grades 6-12. We present a much broader and deeper exploration of challenging mathematics than a typical math curriculum and show students how to apply their knowledge and problem-solving skills to difficult problems."

[Roadrunner]

Yes. The first four chapters are a breeze compared to what is coming. 😂

[Paige]

When flipping through DS's HS Geometry book or some Algebra and Algebra 2 books from kids in the area, I think that I know how to do everything. It all looks familiar based on what I learned in school. I was pretty good in math and homeschooling has made me sharper than before.

 

When flipping through DS's AOPS books, I frequently think, "WTF!"

 

AOPS books are hard. Each is like a whole book of all the problems I hated the most in school from their respective classes. I kind of like the challenge now, but as a kid I just wanted to get it done quickly. 

[slackermom]

 The exponents chapter in the AoPS prealgebra book is good. I do think the prealgebra book is worth getting. My kids kept their worn out books as reference. Many WTMers mentioned AoPS prealgebra book chapter 2 exponents was hard.

 

 

DD just started Algebra in public school a couple of week ago, and her class doesn't use a textbook.  I am so happy we still have the AOPS Pre-A book for her to use! The Pre-A book did a great job with exponents, but didn't specifically cover fractional exponents that we could see, which was the topic of her homework last night, so that caused a mini-panic.  I sent DD to the AOPS website to watch Richard explain them in his videos. Great resource!

[SeaConquest]

When flipping through DS's HS Geometry book or some Algebra and Algebra 2 books from kids in the area, I think that I know how to do everything. It all looks familiar based on what I learned in school. I was pretty good in math and homeschooling has made me sharper than before.

 

When flipping through DS's AOPS books, I frequently think, "WTF!"

 

AOPS books are hard. Each is like a whole book of all the problems I hated the most in school from their respective classes. I kind of like the challenge now, but as a kid I just wanted to get it done quickly. 

 

It's pretty humbling to be stumped by a 3rd grade math curriculum -- happened several times last year with Beast. I don't even want to think about how hard full blown AOPS is going to be.  :scared:

[Loesje22000]

No idea what your math 1,2,3 covers.

 

But in Belgium AoPS Pre Algebra covers grade 7+8 , and we added Understanding Geometry (CTC) for the Geometry part.

AoPS Intro to Algebra covers the Algebra part for grade 9+10 we will use LoF Trig for trig (dd is not in the Math-Science track)

For grade 11-12 we will probably use something Flemish geared to the exit exams in grade 12.

(Her exams will mostly be about functions and statistics)

[lewber]

Yes.

 

(The answer really is that simple.)

 

Ha! Thank you. 

 

Yes. The first four chapters are a breeze compared to what is coming. 😂

This is scary :lol: 

It's my regret with public schooling and the little bit I have tried to add - he hasn't been faced with challenges. This will be good for him. Very eye opening. I am worried about the time commitment on top of his regular homework and activities. We'll  just have to see how it goes. 

[Jackie]

It's my regret with public schooling and the little bit I have tried to add - he hasn't been faced with challenges. This will be good for him. Very eye opening. I am worried about the time commitment on top of his regular homework and activities. We'll just have to see how it goes.

Remember that there is no need to keep to a certain pace. If he has a heavy homework load from school, scale back or shelve AOPS. When he has a lighter load, focus more on it.

 

He'll be learning from the book even if he is using it much more slowly than a homeschooled kid would - and it seems common for homeschooled kids to take 1.5 years on Intro to Algebra because it ends up covering several topics traditionally covered in Algebra 2.

[JoJosMom]

Ha! Thank you. 

 

This is scary :lol:

It's my regret with public schooling and the little bit I have tried to add - he hasn't been faced with challenges. This will be good for him. Very eye opening. I am worried about the time commitment on top of his regular homework and activities. We'll  just have to see how it goes. 

 

FWIW, it does get better.  The blistering pace was a shocker at first here, but DD adjusted.  And, honestly, it has been a good experience.  Once she got to the Algebra B class, it was smooth sailing!

[Arcadia]

If school workload and activities are really heavy, transferring to the Sept 29 class might help. That class has thanksgiving break and Christmas break so kids can catch up.

 

Remember that there is no need to keep to a certain pace. If he has a heavy homework load from school, scale back or shelve AOPS. When he has a lighter load, focus more on it.

OP's child is in an online aops class.

[Jackie]

Whoops. Missed that it was online and not using the book independently.

[musicianmom]

 

Yes, it's that hard.

Edited May 21, 2022 by musicianmom

[lewber]

If school workload and activities are really heavy, transferring to the Sept 29 class might help. That class has thanksgiving break and Christmas break so kids can catch up.

 

 

OP's child is in an online aops class.

That's an idea on the Sept 29th class. I think he'd prefer to work harder now and have a Christmas break from all schooling. But, we'll just have to see how it goes. So far he is enjoying it and hasn't complained about the extra time. His main extra curricular is over mid October so that will free him up some too.  

[lewber]

Remember that there is no need to keep to a certain pace. If he has a heavy homework load from school, scale back or shelve AOPS. When he has a lighter load, focus more on it.

 

He'll be learning from the book even if he is using it much more slowly than a homeschooled kid would - and it seems common for homeschooled kids to take 1.5 years on Intro to Algebra because it ends up covering several topics traditionally covered in Algebra 2.

 

 

We tried to do the book on our own, but we both do a lot better with outside imposed deadlines!  :lol:

[Arcadia]

We tried to do the book on our own, but we both do a lot better with outside imposed deadlines! :lol:

That is how it is with my DS10. My DS11 just want the mutual suffering aspect of online classes and the feeling of having classmates.

[lewber]

DS honestly had fun doing his homework this week. Several times he actually said, this is fun! There were a couple questions he was genuinely excited ( like high fiving me :laugh: )when he submitted the answer and the bar turned green with a correct answer. It was fun to watch. His school classes are going well for the most part this year and we've always decided together that he wanted to stay in public school. We have no real home school community here and he for the most part really does enjoy school and has a nice group of friends. This excitement of learning and the fun we are having working on it together is making me a little sad though. 

[JoJosMom]

DS honestly had fun doing his homework this week. Several times he actually said, this is fun! There were a couple questions he was genuinely excited ( like high fiving me :laugh: )when he submitted the answer and the bar turned green with a correct answer. It was fun to watch. His school classes are going well for the most part this year and we've always decided together that he wanted to stay in public school. We have no real home school community here and he for the most part really does enjoy school and has a nice group of friends. This excitement of learning and the fun we are having working on it together is making me a little sad though. 

 

I'm glad that your son is enjoying his class, but I'm sorry that you are feeling sad.  I know that I'd really miss my short person if she were to go to school all day.  Hopefully, the AoPS class will be like "homeschooling-lite." :grouphug:

[Arcadia]

We have no real home school community here and he for the most part really does enjoy school and has a nice group of friends. This excitement of learning and the fun we are having working on it together is making me a little sad though.

It is bittersweet. I am filing up the SET application form and my oldest has zero social life. It is going to be lots of "Not Applicable" on that form *sigh*

[lewber]

DS has adjusted well. Weeks 3, 4 and 5 have been more review of his algebra class last year, so I am feeling better that he did actually learn something last year. At the same time, I am glad for the new topics and the challenging problems in AOPS. He is doing great in the class and really enjoying it. The writing problems are giving him some grief. He isn't used to explaining every single step, and he's never had to write anything out like that in math before. But it's good experience for him. There's still a lot of class left, so we'll see what the weeks ahead hold. 

 

I'm already trying to get him to take another AOPS class in the spring, I think he'd really love the probability and the number theory classes. I was hoping he could take Geometry but from the AOPS suggested course path, it looks like that should wait? His gift is definitely visual spatial and I really think he'd love geometry. At the same time, I want it to be at the right time for him to get the most out of it. 

 

Thanks to everyone on this board who share these great programs. DS has always been in public school, but I have learned so much more here about classes and programs available to him. 

 

[Arcadia]

My younger did the intro to geometry online class concurrent with intro to algebra B online class. It wasn't a problem other than the time suck of two classes concurrent. My older did intro to geometry with the intermediate algebra class.

[lewber]

My younger did the intro to geometry online class concurrent with intro to algebra B online class. It wasn't a problem other than the time suck of two classes concurrent. My older did intro to geometry with the intermediate algebra class.

 

 

Had either of them taken the Probability or Number theory classes?What is the reasoning behind that sequence?

I know DS doesn't have a lot of homework this year so he'd have time to take one class in the spring. I'm unsure what the homework load will look like in high school next year. 

[Arcadia]

Had either of them taken the Probability or Number theory classes?What is the reasoning behind that sequence?

There is no reason to do algebra and geometry separately other than the time suck. So since my kids get bored with just algebra, I let them do geometry concurrently.

 

They didn't take the class for probability or number theory. They did the books in their own time with prealgebra and algebra. They mish mash the AoPS books their way.

 

I am not from the states. I grew up with integrated maths all the way to 12th grade in a similar scope and sequence to MEP math. What I took for university admission was the Cambridge A Levels exams.

 

I don't see any reason to follow the prealgebra -> algebra 1 -> geometry -> algebra 2 -> precalc -> calculus sequence as homeschoolers or afterschoolers. School has less choice because I don't know any public middle/high school that would offer to let a student take two math subjects per semester.

[JoJosMom]

DS has adjusted well. Weeks 3, 4 and 5 have been more review of his algebra class last year, so I am feeling better that he did actually learn something last year. At the same time, I am glad for the new topics and the challenging problems in AOPS. He is doing great in the class and really enjoying it. The writing problems are giving him some grief. He isn't used to explaining every single step, and he's never had to write anything out like that in math before. But it's good experience for him. There's still a lot of class left, so we'll see what the weeks ahead hold. 

 

I'm already trying to get him to take another AOPS class in the spring, I think he'd really love the probability and the number theory classes. I was hoping he could take Geometry but from the AOPS suggested course path, it looks like that should wait? His gift is definitely visual spatial and I really think he'd love geometry. At the same time, I want it to be at the right time for him to get the most out of it. 

 

Thanks to everyone on this board who share these great programs. DS has always been in public school, but I have learned so much more here about classes and programs available to him. 

 

AoPS' Introduction to Geometry is the hardest of their introductory books.  If you are using AoPS to supplement BM school classes, you might want to consider delaying AoPS Geometry to follow his regular class.  Also, if these are supplementary classes, it might be fun for your son to wander off into topics he won't get to see at school, i.e., Number Theory and Counting and Probability.  Another option would be for him to take the second Intro to Algebra (B) class immediately following his current class.  If nothing else, it will make Algebra 2 at his regular school much easier!