Liar!

[lgliser]

I wasn't sure if I should post this here or on the chat board.  It's about Sophie.  Again :)  I've posted on both boards about her before.  She's got ADHD and sensory issues... she's really anxious too.

 

This is about her lying though.  I wanted to see what you all thought.  We realized about a year ago or so that she lies a lot.  And it seems to go in spurts, unless we just aren't catching her.  

 

It's almost always about such stupid things.  I could give lots of examples but here's just one.  I asked her if she had put on deodorant today.  Normally that is part of her morning routine with getting dressed but since it was a holiday, she had just changed out of her pjs and into her swimsuit to go to a water park.  I didn't expect that she had put on deodorant and was not upset or anything.  But anyway, she said she had.  I did the ol' sniff test because she has BO.  Stank.  So I asked if she was sure that she had?  I said it was ok if she didn't, just tell the truth.  (I realize that this sounds weird but between her big history of lying and her impulse issues I was trying to get her to collect herself and not get all worked up).  She stuck to her story, even being really emphatic about how she remembered doing it, etc.  I FINALLY got her to tell the truth and no, she had not put it on.

 

This is a very typical example.  Something so silly.   She'll say that she lied because she didn't want to get in trouble.  About forgetting deodorant???  Like many other instances, she says she doesn't want to get into trouble but it's for such silly little things that she would not have gotten into trouble.  I always tell her that.  I remind her that all that would have happened is that I would have told her to go do what she was supposed to do.  We all forget to do things.

 

Now some of her lies have been way more serious.  But basically they all come down to her not wanting to do something.  Or not doing things the way she's been taught/thoroughly.  

 

I don't fault her for not putting her all into things like doing chores, personal hygiene (she's still learning), etc.  I mean, it'd be awesome to have a big work ethic, but we're working on it.  Lies though!  Those just are not acceptable.  And I know that every kid does it once in a while.  But it's quite chronic with her.  No matter how much we tell her that she will ALWAYS get in more trouble for lying, she keeps lying.

 

Anyway, this is a really short version.  And part of me wonders if it's a part of her diagnosis.  I don't want to excuse it though.  And she always admits that she knew she was lying the whole time.  It's not like she was confused or just impulsively said what she thought we wanted to hear.  I don't know about that though.  I think some of the time it could be that she blurted out the "right" answer and then thought she had to ride it out.  But we have even told her that we will understand if something like that happens.  Just to stop and think and say something like "no, that's not right....."  

 

I do not understand why she won't stop.  I feel like we have tried everything.  Does anyone have any ideas?

[Barb_]

Something I like to do with the impulsive lie-prone is to say, "hmm...I suspect you may have answered too quickly. Why don't you go out and then think about it for a few seconds and we'll try a do over." Then the the child can leave the room and you can redo the whole thing pretending like it never happened the first time. I suspect she may be needing to save face.

 

ETA: after a while I just need to say, "maybe we should do that one over" and she'll know exactly what I mean.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Barb_

[lgliser]

 

 

Something I like to do with the impulsive lie-prone is to say, "hmm...I suspect you may have answered too quickly. Why don't you go out and then think about it for a few seconds and we'll try a do over." Then the the child can leave the room and you can redo the whole thing pretending like it never happened the first time. I suspect she may be needing to save face.

 

ETA: after a while I just need to say, "maybe we should do that one over" and she'll know exactly what I mean. 

We do that!  I like your wording though.  I think it's worked a couple times with Sophie, but usually she sticks to her story.

[PeterPan]

I knew someone once who had a major (beyond rational) problem with lying, and she had health problems.  How old is this dc?  BO like that could be a sign her gut isn't clearing well.  I would work on her diet and health, and see if that carries over.  Food combining to improve digestion, eliminate all cheese, red meat, and white flour.  There's plenty of food to keep her going without those things.  If you eliminate those three and add in enough fruits and veges, her gut should clear, improving the BO.  

 

After that you probably need to see a counselor/psychologist. The one person I know was, with health improvements and serious upfront accountability, able to being confronting her own issues and admitting what she had done.  The other person I know who did this, honestly, requires psych meds.  But since you've got the BO, let's roll with the easier explanation, kwim?  

‎

The link below is very similar to what I was taught.  You said you've tried everything, so I'm giving you something you probably haven't tried.   :)

www.marilu.com/wp-content/uploads/downloadables/foodchart.pdf

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[maize]

Research into lying in kids indicates that it is quite common, and yes, the kids are most often trying to save face/not stress their relationship with their parents.

 

I would try to avoid setting her up to lie--so no "did you do..." type questions.

[MomatHWTK]

ADHD involves impulse control and executive function issues. So the ADHD could be the cause or there could be other underlying issues. You might consider having her see a therapist a time or two to see if there is something else going on. 

Resource: https://www.understood.org/en/learning-attention-issues/child-learning-disabilities/add-adhd/adhd-and-lying-what-you-need-to-know

This is just one of many articles, so it appears to be a common problem. 

 

Edited September 6, 2016 by MomatHWTK

[SarahW]

Is it possible she thought about putting on deodorant, and then convinced herself that she actually did it?

 

I have noticed this with my oldest (who probably has a similar grouping of issues). He'll be playing on his kindle before bed and I'll tell him to go brush his teeth. Okay, he says, once he's done with whatever he's making and can save the game. Okay, that's fine. But then later when he goes up for bed I ask him if he brushed his teeth, and he says yes, of course. But when did he brush his teeth? Earlier, he says. After asking him a bunch of questions (did he brush right when he came upstairs? after he put down his kindle? did he stop playing, brush, and then go back to his kindle?) he'll eventually realize that no, he thought about brushing teeth, he had a plan for doing it, but then he forgot to actually do that plan, and confused the plan for reality. 

 

This happens often, in lots of different situations. I don't really know what's up with it. Asking what he was doing before or after whatever he thought he didn't (or did) do is usually enough to show him that it is a false memory.

[eternalsummer]

I might also have lied in that situation as a kid - I hated getting in any trouble of any sort ever, or even just disappointing people at all.

 

In addition, I would have felt really intruded upon if my parents asked me if I'd put on deodorant.  That was one of those things they showed me how to use, bought, and then left it up to me to decide/remember to use or not use.  It's not a health issue, so maybe she is just feeling a combination of defensive and wanting to ward off trouble?

[geodob]

Does she pause for a moment, before giving you answer?

Or is it more reflexive, without any consideration?

 

Such as with the deodorant?  Did she answer instantly, or pause and try to recall if she did or didn't?

In which case, she might need to learn to use her 'mental pause button'?

[Tanaqui]

I have to say, I'm not sure why you asked her if she put on deodorant.

 

You know she has trouble with lying, and it can get emotional.

 

You knew she stank.

 

So why ask her a question that sets her up to lie? Whether she put on deodorant or not, she smelled bad at the moment. "Honey, your deodorant must have worn off. Go put some more on." Boom, done, and she can't answer reflexively and then need to save face by sticking to that answer.

[Heathermomster]

If your child has compromised wm and processing speed and is suddenly put on the spot to supply a quick answer, then yes, she will provide the answer you want to hear as opposed to what actually happened because her brain cannot possibly provide a fast, on the spot answer.  

 

With respect, I don't care for the way in which you labeled your child a liar.  She's been diagnosed with ADD and has processing issues.  Try to honor her struggles and realize that EF is likely a major issue and she needs supports, far longer than the average child/teenager.

[lgliser]

 

Is it possible she thought about putting on deodorant, and then convinced herself that she actually did it?

 

I have noticed this with my oldest (who probably has a similar grouping of issues). He'll be playing on his kindle before bed and I'll tell him to go brush his teeth. Okay, he says, once he's done with whatever he's making and can save the game. Okay, that's fine. But then later when he goes up for bed I ask him if he brushed his teeth, and he says yes, of course. But when did he brush his teeth? Earlier, he says. After asking him a bunch of questions (did he brush right when he came upstairs? after he put down his kindle? did he stop playing, brush, and then go back to his kindle?) he'll eventually realize that no, he thought about brushing teeth, he had a plan for doing it, but then he forgot to actually do that plan, and confused the plan for reality. 

 

This happens often, in lots of different situations. I don't really know what's up with it. Asking what he was doing before or after whatever he thought he didn't (or did) do is usually enough to show him that it is a false memory.

 

 

Does she pause for a moment, before giving you answer?

Or is it more reflexive, without any consideration?

 

Such as with the deodorant?  Did she answer instantly, or pause and try to recall if she did or didn't?

In which case, she might need to learn to use her 'mental pause button'?

 

Yes, totally possible.  Which is why I do things like say, "think about it for a second..."  I give her opportunity to correct herself.  She does just answer reflexively and I know that that's just her ADHD/impulsivity.  I get it, I really do.  But I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to respond to it, ya know?  Should I never punish her for lying because "she can't help it?"

 

 

I have to say, I'm not sure why you asked her if she put on deodorant.

 

You know she has trouble with lying, and it can get emotional.

 

You knew she stank.

 

So why ask her a question that sets her up to lie? Whether she put on deodorant or not, she smelled bad at the moment. "Honey, your deodorant must have worn off. Go put some more on." Boom, done, and she can't answer reflexively and then need to save face by sticking to that answer.

I didn't know she stank when I asked.  I was asking her I guess more as a reminder because I figured since she didn't have her usual morning routine, that she had not put it on.  I wasn't thinking I was going to set her up or catch her in a lie.  I only knew she stank after she said she had put it on and I doubted her so I sniffed.  I do understand what you're saying though.  And in some instances, I could totally just say, "hey don't forget to ..." whatever.  Instead of "did you....?"  

 

 

If your child has compromised wm and processing speed and is suddenly put on the spot to supply a quick answer, then yes, she will provide the answer you want to hear as opposed to what actually happened because her brain cannot possibly provide a fast, on the spot answer.  

 

With respect, I don't care for the way in which you labeled your child a liar.  She's been diagnosed with ADD and has processing issues.  Try to honor her struggles and realize that EF is likely a major issue and she needs supports, far longer than the average child/teenager.

 

I don't know what wm is.  I was going to say I didn't know what EF was either but I just remembered.  Even though those words were never used in her diagnosis.  I'm not trying to be mean and label her.  But she lies.  A lot.  I am TRYING SO HARD to figure this kid out and help her the best I can.  DH doesn't want to admit anything is wrong, nor do his parents.  My parents and friends are sympathetic but really have no advice.  We have had her see a therapist.  We took her to the children's hospital behavioral clinic.  I come to this board and people seem to really know their stuff as far as their kids' diagnosis.  They throw around words and labels that I have not heard, even with a full psych eval.  I am TRYING!!!!!  I have not gotten answers.  

 

And now I'm in tears here typing this... I don't know if I've been misunderstood here or I am not doing things right and people are pointing that out... that's fine - I need things pointed out. But so far the suggestions I've been given are things we already do. They've been wonderful suggestions.  We've just already tried them.  I just want to help my daughter and I feel like I'm truly trying.  I'm not just giving up on her.  I spend almost every night researching things, seeking advice from people who have an inkling of what we are going through.  I feel very alone in this.

 

Guys, this deodorant thing is only one example.  I do not think she felt intruded upon by me asking.  I want all the kids to wear it.  I know it's not a health issue but it offends my nose!  OhElizabeth, I will look into your link about gut cleansing :)

 

But again, I realize with her diagnosis and just being a 9 year old kid who would rather please than get "in trouble," I can't expect perfection.  Obviously!  I just don't know what my reaction should be.  Punishment for lying?  Understanding and no consequence?  A verbal reminder that I can't trust her if she keeps lying?  What? 

Edited September 6, 2016 by lgliser

[wendyroo]

I have to say, I'm not sure why you asked her if she put on deodorant.

 

You know she has trouble with lying, and it can get emotional.

 

You knew she stank.

 

So why ask her a question that sets her up to lie? Whether she put on deodorant or not, she smelled bad at the moment. "Honey, your deodorant must have worn off. Go put some more on." Boom, done, and she can't answer reflexively and then need to save face by sticking to that answer.

 

:iagree:

 

Peter struggles with a lot of mental health and executive function issues and I just take it as a given for now that his brain will supply the answer that he wishes were true even if that has no basis in reality.  It is not his fault, per se, it is just all that he is currently capable of.

 

So I say things like, "Peter, some drawing got on the wall.  Would you please clean it off?"  We all know that he is the one who drew on the wall, but I also know that some part of him desperately wishes he had the impulse control to avoid maladaptive behaviors, and that if asked he will deny he is the culprit.  So I don't ask if he did it, and I just put the ball in his court to remedy the problem.

 

Sometimes he does spontaneously lie even if I pointedly avoid asking him if he did something.  He might blurt out, "I didn't do it."  At that point I try to walk a fine line.  I don't think it does him any favors for me to pretend he is telling the truth, but I also want to avoid shaming him and stay focused on what has to happen to resolve the situation.  I normally say something like, "I know you wish that were true, but I don't think that is what actually happened.  Once you get it cleaned up, though, then it won't be a problem anymore and we can put it behind us." 

 

Wendy

[lgliser]

 

Peter struggles with a lot of mental health and executive function issues and I just take it as a given for now that his brain will supply the answer that he wishes were true even if that has no basis in reality.  It is not his fault, per se, it is just all that he is currently capable of.

 

So I say things like, "Peter, some drawing got on the wall.  Would you please clean it off?"  We all know that he is the one who drew on the wall, but I also know that some part of him desperately wishes he had the impulse control to avoid maladaptive behaviors, and that if asked he will deny he is the culprit.  So I don't ask if he did it, and I just put the ball in his court to remedy the problem.

 

Sometimes he does spontaneously lie even if I pointedly avoid asking him if he did something.  He might blurt out, "I didn't do it."  At that point I try to walk a fine line.  I don't think it does him any favors for me to pretend he is telling the truth, but I also want to avoid shaming him and stay focused on what has to happen to resolve the situation.  I normally say something like, "I know you wish that were true, but I don't think that is what actually happened.  Once you get it cleaned up, though, then it won't be a problem anymore and we can put it behind us." 

I replied above too, but I really truly did not know.  I wasn't being sneaky, trying to catch her in a lie or set her up.  It was like a, "hey did you remember to put on deodorant today?"  Like a, "hey did you remember to do your Latin Quizlet practice today?"  Sometimes she remembers, sometimes she doesn't.  How else would I know but to ask?  And like I also mentioned above, I tell her to slow down and think about her answer.  

 

People, I am on her team!  I want to help her!

[Terabith]

I would just say, "Okay. Well, you're still stinks. Go put more on, please."

[maize]

No, I would not punish her for lying. Kids who are punished for lying just become better liars.

 

I think my parental do-over version of the deodorant incident would be something like "since you're going out this would be a good time to put on some deodorant"--if she protests that she already has deodorant on / doesn't need it you could do a quick sniff test "hey, I can smell body odor, you need to put it on again."

 

Your original approach set her up to lie and you knew it-- why did you ask a question you were immediately prepared to disbelieve the answer to? If you think a child is just going to give the answer you want and expect that answer to be false, don't ask the question.

[SarahW]

Yes, totally possible.  Which is why I do things like say, "think about it for a second..."  I give her opportunity to correct herself.  She does just answer reflexively and I know that that's just her ADHD/impulsivity.  I get it, I really do.  But I guess I'm just trying to figure out how to respond to it, ya know?  Should I never punish her for lying because "she can't help it?"

 

I didn't know she stank when I asked.  I was asking her I guess more as a reminder because I figured since she didn't have her usual morning routine, that she had not put it on.  I wasn't thinking I was going to set her up or catch her in a lie.  I only knew she stank after she said she had put it on and I doubted her so I sniffed.  I do understand what you're saying though.  And in some instances, I could totally just say, "hey don't forget to ..." whatever.  Instead of "did you....?"  

 

 

I don't know what wm is.  I was going to say I didn't know what EF was either but I just remembered.  Even though those words were never used in her diagnosis.  I'm not trying to be mean and label her.  But she lies.  A lot.  I am TRYING SO HARD to figure this kid out and help her the best I can.  DH doesn't want to admit anything is wrong, nor do his parents.  My parents and friends are sympathetic but really have no advice.  We have had her see a therapist.  We took her to the children's hospital behavioral clinic.  I come to this board and people seem to really know their stuff as far as their kids' diagnosis.  They throw around words and labels that I have not heard, even with a full psych eval.  I am TRYING!!!!!  I have not gotten answers.  

 

And now I'm in tears here typing this... I don't know if I've been misunderstood here or I am not doing things right and people are pointing that out... that's fine - I need things pointed out. But so far the suggestions I've been given are things we already do. They've been wonderful suggestions.  We've just already tried them.  I just want to help my daughter and I feel like I'm truly trying.  I'm not just giving up on her.  I spend almost every night researching things, seeking advice from people who have an inkling of what we are going through.  I feel very alone in this.

 

Guys, this deodorant thing is only one example.  I do not think she felt intruded upon by me asking.  I want all the kids to wear it.  I know it's not a health issue but it offends my nose!  OhElizabeth, I will look into your link about gut cleansing :)

 

But again, I realize with her diagnosis and just being a 9 year old kid who would rather please than get "in trouble," I can't expect perfection.  Obviously!  I just don't know what my reaction should be.  Punishment for lying?  Understanding and no consequence?  A verbal reminder that I can't trust her if she keeps lying?  What? 

 

I'm sorry if you feel piled on. These things are hard. I mean my kid doesn't even have very severe issues, so that's good in a way, but on the other hand when things come up they come so far from left field and hit me so unaware, that I'm just lost and confused and so very, very frustrated. 

 

Kids tend to lie. All kids. They want to please. They don't want to make you mad. They don't want to get into trouble.

 

Then when you add "issues" (ADD, SPD, ASD, whatever) on top of that, it gets complicated. I think that's what we're all saying. That your DD's issue may be more complicated than simple "kid lying" level. And yes, that makes getting to the normal kid-not-lying point more frustrating.

 

I think the main thing is that we feel that you labeled your child as being "bad." A child can not be bad for something they do not intend to do and/or can not help. We can help them build "good" behavior, of course, but a different brain is not itself a moral failing.

 

:grouphug:

[lgliser]

 

 

No, I would not punish her for lying. Kids who are punished for lying just become better liars.

 

I think my parental do-over version of the deodorant incident would be something like "since you're going out this would be a good time to put on some deodorant"--if she protests that she already has deodorant on / doesn't need it you could do a quick sniff test "hey, I can smell body odor, you need to put it on again."

 

Your original approach set her up to lie and you knew it-- why did you ask a question you were immediately prepared to disbelieve the answer to? If you think a child is just going to give the answer you want and expect that answer to be false, don't ask the question. 

True - I can already see her becoming a better liar.  Seems so weird not to have a consequence for lying though.

 

Again I'll say, I did not mean to set her up.  I asked a question, and you are right, I didn't think she had done it.  I wasn't thinking in my head though, "I'm going to catch her in a lie... bwa haha."  I was asking with the intent to remind her.  I need to change my line of thinking with her though and not (even if unintentionally) set her up.

[wendyroo]

I replied above too, but I really truly did not know.  I wasn't being sneaky, trying to catch her in a lie or set her up.  It was like a, "hey did you remember to put on deodorant today?"  Like a, "hey did you remember to do your Latin Quizlet practice today?"  Sometimes she remembers, sometimes she doesn't.  How else would I know but to ask?  And like I also mentioned above, I tell her to slow down and think about her answer.  

 

People, I am on her team!  I want to help her!

 

You knowing might be exactly what her brain is trying desperately to avoid.  When she has dropped the ball, it might just be too hard for her to admit that to you.  And it probably doesn't have anything to do with what your reaction would be to the news...she isn't protecting herself from you, but rather from the blow to her self-image.

 

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would try is finding ways to ensure necessary jobs get down without ever asking her; I would try to take yourself out of the equation as often as possible.  Sometimes, like with the deodorant or my son drawing on the wall, there is no reason to ask what did or did not happen in the past, because neither will change the fact that there is currently a problem that needs solving.

 

Other times, like with the Quizlet practice, I would aim to remind her about her obligations in ways that allow her to save face if necessary.  Avoid questions, and if possible, avoid even aiming reminders at her individually - group reminders can feel less threatening.  Maybe mid-afternoon you could just remind all the kids that if they haven't yet completed A, B and C for the day that they should make sure to do so soon.  Then make yourself scarce so she (and the boys) can do any tasks they forgot without feeling judged.

 

Wendy

[maize]

True - I can already see her becoming a better liar.  Seems so weird not to have a consequence for lying though.

 

Again I'll say, I did not mean to set her up.  I asked a question, and you are right, I didn't think she had done it.  I wasn't thinking in my head though, "I'm going to catch her in a lie... bwa haha."  I was asking with the intent to remind her.  I need to change my line of thinking with her though and not (even if unintentionally) set her up.

 

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you were intentionally/maliciously setting a trap for her, just that you know your child is likely to respond with the "desirable" answer to such a question whether it is true or not. Many children (and adults!) do. Knowing that, you need to avoid wording your reminders as questions in the future.

[lgliser]

 

 

 

I'm sorry if you feel piled on. These things are hard. I mean my kid doesn't even have very severe issues, so that's good in a way, but on the other hand when things come up they come so far from left field and hit me so unaware, that I'm just lost and confused and so very, very frustrated. 

 

Kids tend to lie. All kids. They want to please. They don't want to make you mad. They don't want to get into trouble.

 

Then when you add "issues" (ADD, SPD, ASD, whatever) on top of that, it gets complicated. I think that's what we're all saying. That your DD's issue may be more complicated than simple "kid lying" level. And yes, that makes getting to the normal kid-not-lying point more frustrating.

 

I think the main thing is that we feel that you labeled your child as being "bad." A child can not be bad for something they do not intend to do and/or can not help. We can help them build "good" behavior, of course, but a different brain is not itself a moral failing.

Thanks!  Yes things are hard.  She does have the ADHD diagnosis but her other "issues" are a mystery I guess??  No diagnosis of anxiety (though she seems so anxious to me).  Nobody has ever talked about executive function with me.... I guess I'm saying I think it would be easier if I knew exactly what I was dealing with.

 

 She's not bad. I'm truly regretful that it came across that I think she's bad.  My "liar!" subject line was a poor choice.  (I often have trouble thinking of a good subject line).   But lying is a bad habit.  And oh-so-frustrating.  And I guess we are trying to make her realize that nothing good can come of it.  I am not receiving the professional guidance that I hoped would come from therapy, behavioral clinics, psych evals, etc so I am left just feeling SO helpless and clueless!

 

I really appreciate everyone's advice on this!  

[lgliser]

 

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that you were intentionally/maliciously setting a trap for her, just that you know your child is likely to respond with the "desirable" answer to such a question whether it is true or not. Many children (and adults!) do. Knowing that, you need to avoid wording your reminders as questions in the future.

Gotcha :)  I will change the way I word things with her.

 

 

You knowing might be exactly what her brain is trying desperately to avoid.  When she has dropped the ball, it might just be too hard for her to admit that to you.  And it probably doesn't have anything to do with what your reaction would be to the news...she isn't protecting herself from you, but rather from the blow to her self-image.

 

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would try is finding ways to ensure necessary jobs get down without ever asking her; I would try to take yourself out of the equation as often as possible.  Sometimes, like with the deodorant or my son drawing on the wall, there is no reason to ask what did or did not happen in the past, because neither will change the fact that there is currently a problem that needs solving.

 

Other times, like with the Quizlet practice, I would aim to remind her about her obligations in ways that allow her to save face if necessary.  Avoid questions, and if possible, avoid even aiming reminders at her individually - group reminders can feel less threatening.  Maybe mid-afternoon you could just remind all the kids that if they haven't yet completed A, B and C for the day that they should make sure to do so soon.  Then make yourself scarce so she (and the boys) can do any tasks they forgot without feeling judged.

Poor Sophie, I know you are right.  I try really hard to tell her it's ok.  That she's not in trouble for not doing Quizlet (or whatever), but that I just wanted to remind her that it needs to get done.

 

LOL It's always frustrating when someone posts and question needing advice and people give advice and the OP is like, "I've tried that" to everyone.  But here I am saying, "we've tried that too!"  :laugh:   I like checklists.  I feel that they're a helpful way to have the kids get things done without me nagging.  They simply look at the checklist, do it, mark it as done. 

 

We have a checklist upstairs to help them remember what needs to be done up there.  They're "getting ready" checklist.  Everything from brush teeth, make bed, get dressed, deodorant.  And for two of the kids, the list is probably unnecessary at this point.  For Sophie, who gets distracted so easily, I would think that it would be very helpful.

 

The downstairs list has things like Quizlet, who's turn it is to wipe the table down after lunch, practice piano, etc.

 

Sophie marks things done without having actually done them though. 

 

You mentioned making myself scarce too.  Most of the things on their list are things that they get done in the morning while I'm still upstairs getting ready, putting some laundry away, or whatever work I need to do.  So I trust that my 9 year olds can follow the list and do things without me hoovering.  I wish!

 

And again, guys, I don't expect perfection.  From any of them!  To-Do lists are not FUN.  Kids slack.  Adults slack!  I get that.

 

But back to the original issue.  Sophie lies about having done things that she did not do.  She doesn't like doing Quizlet so she marks it off so I'll think she did it.  She has told me that she knows what she's doing at the time.  She doesn't like putting things where they need to go in her room so she shoves things under her bed and checks "clean room" off the list. 

 

Maybe scarceness isn't good for this kid?  Perhaps if I was around, she would realize that she can't get out of doing something?

Edited September 6, 2016 by lgliser

[Heathermomster]

WM is working memory.

 

Have you spoken with a CBT yet?  I'm sorry, you may have mentioned that and I missed it.

 

A CBT can explain the ADD and what that means. He/she can look at the testing numbers used to identify the ADD and help you and your child problem solve.  There are cognitive therapies to improve working memory.  You will need to change your habits in order to add structure in ways that you may have never considered, and that change is challenging personally but worth it.  

 

The best way to not put my child on the spot is to be prepared and give ourselves plenty of time.  I have used some of the strategies expounded upon in the book ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life.

 

ETA:  Tomato stake her if she is marking things off and not completing them.  Sit next to her until each task is completed.  While you are with her, you may recognize hangups and might be able to see the need for curriculum changes and accommodations.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Heathermomster

[maize]

Executive function is the big thing ADHD kids and adults struggle with. What we see as ADHD is, in essence, a deficit in executive function. It makes all types of self regulation difficult.

 

I had one more thought relevant to the lying situation you mentioned--just a further reason to avoid setting up similar situations in the future. What if your daughter hadn't been lying--if she had in fact put on deodorant--but you had doubted her and questioned her truthfulness, insisting on a sniff test? I think that would have been even more potentially harmful as it could lead her to think "mom never believes me, why should I try?"

 

I know these kids are tough to parent, it is clear that you are a caring and thoughtful mom--kuddos to you! I'm super sympathetic to ADHD kids and their struggles because I was one of them. Living your life always falling short and always getting in trouble is so discouraging to a child.

[wendyroo]

Gotcha :)  I will change the way I word things with her.

 

Poor Sophie, I know you are right.  I try really hard to tell her it's ok.  That she's not in trouble for not doing Quizlet (or whatever), but that I just wanted to remind her that it needs to get done.

 

LOL It's always frustrating when someone posts and question needing advice and people give advice and the OP is like, "I've tried that" to everyone.  But here I am saying, "we've tried that too!"  :laugh:   I like checklists.  I feel that they're a helpful way to have the kids get things done without me nagging.  They simply look at the checklist, do it, mark it as done. 

 

We have a checklist upstairs to help them remember what needs to be done up there.  They're "getting ready" checklist.  Everything from brush teeth, make bed, get dressed, deodorant.  And for two of the kids, the list is probably unnecessary at this point.  For Sophie, who gets distracted so easily, I would think that it would be very helpful.

 

The downstairs list has things like Quizlet, who's turn it is to wipe the table down after lunch, practice piano, etc.

 

Sophie marks things done without having actually done them though. 

 

You mentioned making myself scarce too.  Most of the things on their list are things that they get done in the morning while I'm still upstairs getting ready, putting some laundry away, or whatever work I need to do.  So I trust that my 9 year olds can follow the list and do things without me hoovering.  I wish!

 

And again, guys, I don't expect perfection.  From any of them!  To-Do lists are not FUN.  Kids slack.  Adults slack!  I get that.

 

But back to the original issue.  Sophie lies about having done things that she did not do.  She doesn't like doing Quizlet so she marks it off so I'll think she did it.  She has told me that she knows what she's doing at the time.  She doesn't like putting things where they need to go in her room so she shoves things under her bed and checks "clean room" off the list. 

 

Maybe scarceness isn't good for this kid?  Perhaps if I was around, she would realize that she can't get out of doing something?

 

Is there a way to check if she has done the Quizlet?  

 

With Peter I have more luck taking the emphasis off when or how or with how many reminders he got the job done and just setting a quantifiable, verifiable goal.  If I suspect he didn't brush his teeth when he was supposed to, I don't ask him or let on that I think he forgot, but rather I say something to all the kids like, "I have to go start a load of laundry and then I will be doing a tooth inspection to make sure everyone got all the tarter off their pearly whites."  Maybe he "sneaks" in to brush because he knows he did not really do it earlier - fine.  Maybe he sticks with his story and lets me inspect his dirty teeth and I send him in to do a "touch up" - fine.  Either way the job gets done.

 

What I have to remind myself everyday is that Peter's weak executive function skills make it very, very, VERY hard for him to just do even small tasks that would be simple for most kids his age.  Asking him to look at a check list, realize he needs to brush his teeth, walk to the bathroom ignoring the view out the window and the library book on the shelf and the speck of dust in the air, remember the steps to brush his teeth, stay focused for several minutes when his mind is going a mile and minute and then stick with the task long enough to put away his toothbrush...well, for Peter that is as difficult as it would be for his 5 year old brother to plan and prepare a three course meal for the family.  Looked at that way, it becomes understandable why he would give up before he even started and just lie to avoid the whole overwhelming ordeal.

 

Wendy

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I'm so sorry you are in tears.  You are in a tough position with no easy path to follow.  Parenting is HARD.  I think everyone here recognizes this and is honestly trying to help.  Sorry you feel jumped on.  Huge hugs.  Navigating these waters can be so challenging.  Sometimes we make choices that appear to be a bad idea but we didn't do it because we thought it was a bad idea.  We did it because we didn't know what else to do and it seemed the best or most logical response.  It isn't that we don't love our kids.  We wouldn't be here asking questions if we didn't care.  I don't think anyone meant that you maliciously set up your child to lie or had given up on her or anything of that nature.  I think they are trying to say that sometimes we as parents unintentionally set up our kids to lie to save face or defend themselves mentally without ever consciously intending to.

 

Although this isn't easy, maybe try to shift your perspective from seeing the lying as a punishable behavior so she isn't getting away with lying.  Instead, keep looking at this as a consequence of neurological differences and that she is going to need scaffolding and long term specialized help in how to process and cope with life's expectations.  While you navigate these waters, deliberately set her up for success.

 

For example, don't ask questions like "Did you put on deodorant?"  since in all likelihood she did forget and may respond without remembering clearly whether she did or not.  She will respond as she thinks you want her to.  If you are going out, simply ask her to put on "extra" deodorant to make sure it will last while you are out.  If she is supposed to do something on Quizzlet, sit next to her to get her started, then walk away but be nearby if you can.  When she is done, praise her.

 

I'll give you an example from my house.  If I want to make sure that DS brushed his teeth, which he often forgets to do, I do not ask him if he brushed his teeth.  His first response will probably be an impulse one just trying to answer in whatever way pleases me.  He probably won't immediately remember.  After he thinks about it a second or two he may or may not truly remember if he did or not.  He may THINK he brushed because he brushed yesterday.  I don't want him to "lie" and then have to try and save face.  Instead, if I am uncertain he brushed his teeth I check the toothbrush.  If it is dry I simply show it to him and ask him not to forget to brush his teeth before bed.  Obviously this is something I can easily check.  If it is something I cannot easily check after the fact I find other ways to get him to do what he needs to do without asking if he has already.

 

Some kids have high anxiety over even little things.  The fear of displeasing a parent or failing to do something they are expected to do can be huge.  Lying is not the logical response, it is the fight or flight response from a different part of the brain.  A part that is not easy for a child, especially a non-neurotypical, to control.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:  

 

Hang in there Mom.  Your child has a mother who loves her very much and is trying to do what is best for her child.  That's huge.  Maybe there are going to be a lot of bumps in the road but having a parent who cares is a large chunk of the battle.  Give yourself and your child some grace.  Hugs.

 

[lgliser]

 

WM is working memory.

 

Have you spoken with a CBT yet?  I'm sorry, you may have mentioned that and I missed it.

 

A CBT can explain the ADD and what that means. He/she can look at the testing numbers used to identify the ADD and help you and your child problem solve.  There are cognitive therapies to improve working memory.  You will need to change your habits in order to add structure in ways that you may have never considered, and that change is challenging personally but worth it.  

 

The best way to not put my child on the spot is to be prepared and give ourselves plenty of time.  I have used some of the strategies expounded upon in the book ADD-Friendly Ways to Organize Your Life.

 

ETA:  Tomato stake her if she is marking things off and not completing them.  Sit next to her until each task is completed.  While you are with her, you may recognize hangups and might be able to see the need for curriculum changes and accommodations.

I think sadly, the answer to "have we seen a CBT" is, "I am not sure."  Her first therapist did play therapy.  She diagnosed her ADHD without any tests, but just by symptoms.  I just googled her and under "treatment approaches" it does mention CBT.  We weren't really getting anywhere with her so I thought that going to the children's hospital behavioral clinic was like the best thing we could do.  If they can't help us, nobody could.  This guy did all of the tests and has all of the numbers and he did explain some things.  His ultimate recommendation was OT for sensory needs, so we did that.  And now we are doing IM with her.  It's been 4 sessions so far.

 

I think tomato staking may be a great idea.  And I will check out the book you mentioned too.  Changing my habits in ways I never imagined is exactly what I need.  I feel like I have tried everything but I know there MUST be things that I have not thought of.  

 

 

 

Executive function is the big thing ADHD kids and adults struggle with. What we see as ADHD is, in essence, a deficit in executive function. It makes all types of self regulation difficult.

 

I had one more thought relevant to the lying situation you mentioned--just a further reason to avoid setting up similar situations in the future. What if your daughter hadn't been lying--if she had in fact put on deodorant--but you had doubted her and questioned her truthfulness, insisting on a sniff test? I think that would have been even more potentially harmful as it could lead her to think "mom never believes me, why should I try?"

 

Thanks for explaining.  I'm forever learning about this!  It's tough because I'll read a book or an article and some of it will ring true and  then a lot won't, and I'll question her diagnosis at all!  I agree with what you said about her thinking why should she even try.  I really do get that.  My automatic response is, "Yes, that is a sad place to be.  Mom never believing you. It takes a long time to build trust back up."  But that's probably more of a response to an adult who's lying!  Not a kid, particularly one like Sophie.

 

 

Is there a way to check if she has done the Quizlet?  

 

With Peter I have more luck taking the emphasis off when or how or with how many reminders he got the job done and just setting a quantifiable, verifiable goal.  If I suspect he didn't brush his teeth when he was supposed to, I don't ask him or let on that I think he forgot, but rather I say something to all the kids like, "I have to go start a load of laundry and then I will be doing a tooth inspection to make sure everyone got all the tarter off their pearly whites."  Maybe he "sneaks" in to brush because he knows he did not really do it earlier - fine.  Maybe he sticks with his story and lets me inspect his dirty teeth and I send him in to do a "touch up" - fine.  Either way the job gets done.

 

What I have to remind myself everyday is that Peter's weak executive function skills make it very, very, VERY hard for him to just do even small tasks that would be simple for most kids his age.  Asking him to look at a check list, realize he needs to brush his teeth, walk to the bathroom ignoring the view out the window and the library book on the shelf and the speck of dust in the air, remember the steps to brush his teeth, stay focused for several minutes when his mind is going a mile and minute and then stick with the task long enough to put away his toothbrush...well, for Peter that is as difficult as it would be for his 5 year old brother to plan and prepare a three course meal for the family.  Looked at that way, it becomes understandable why he would give up before he even started and just lie to avoid the whole overwhelming ordeal.

 

I don't think there's a way to check Quizlet.  But there is a way to check to see if she's done Xtra math, Prodigy, and a couple of the other computer things they do through the week.  Thank you for your examples!  I think that's a great way to see if things are getting done, and not putting just one child on the spot.  Good thinking!  I do think part of my problem is just a lack of understanding/knowledge about ADHD and whatever else she has.  So your reminders are very helpful.

 

 

[lgliser]

 

 

I'm so sorry you are in tears.  You are in a tough position with no easy path to follow.  Parenting is HARD.  I think everyone here recognizes this and is honestly trying to help.  Sorry you feel jumped on.  Huge hugs.  Navigating these waters can be so challenging.  Sometimes we make choices that appear to be a bad idea but we didn't do it because we thought it was a bad idea.  We did it because we didn't know what else to do and it seemed the best or most logical response.  It isn't that we don't love our kids.  We wouldn't be here asking questions if we didn't care.  I don't think anyone meant that you maliciously set up your child to lie or had given up on her or anything of that nature.  I think they are trying to say that sometimes we as parents unintentionally set up our kids to lie to save face or defend themselves mentally without ever consciously intending to.

Thank you so much.  It's ok, I'm ok.  Like I said, it's a lonely place to be sometimes.  I know people here are nice (seriously, SO NICE).  I'm just feeling sensitive.  

 

 

 

Although this isn't easy, maybe try to shift your perspective from seeing the lying as a punishable behavior so she isn't getting away with lying.  Instead, keep looking at this as a consequence of neurological differences and that she is going to need scaffolding and long term specialized help in how to process and cope with life's expectations.  While you navigate these waters, deliberately set her up for success.

 

You're right.  Not easy!  But necessary.  I just need to know what this scaffolding is.  The professionals have only been somewhat helpful... or maybe I'm looking for something to be more magical than it will ever be?!

 

 

 

 

Some kids have high anxiety over even little things.  The fear of displeasing a parent or failing to do something they are expected to do can be huge.  Lying is not the logical response, it is the fight or flight response from a different part of the brain.  A part that is not easy for a child, especially a non-neurotypical, to control.

 

It's true and I think this is Sophie for sure.  So anxious.  :(  I want to calm her!

 

Thank you for your support and advice!!!  And for the example about your own son.  I think I really will just try to do things with her and see how that goes.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Heathermomster]

Since she was diagnosed without any measurable testing, you may want to get a full neuropsychological examination. IDK, maybe speak with a EF professional first and get their input.

 

Finding the right CBT person can be tricky.  DS used a therapist with a masters degree, and he was not helpful at all.  We presently use a CBT that has over 20 years experience and has an Ed.D.  He specializes with people suffering from ODD.  He works within an office of professionals including one of the only child psychiatrists in town.  We love him, but he is super expensive and does not accept insurance.  We see him every 3-4 weeks.

 

Maybe sit down and identify your goals WRT your child.  Based upon what you have mentioned, the untruthful behavior must stop.  She needs an acceptable way to answer questions, even if that means raising her hand and indicating that she is saying hello in Vulcan.  

 

My DS cannot do any school work in his bedroom. He just cannot do it. I brought him home when he was 7th grade, and he started working independently as a high schooler.  The process has been a slow build.  You have more children than I do.  My DD is currently in 3rd grade and I distinctly recall thinking that I would never be able to teach her to read because I was up my son's chuff most of the day.  We managed it, and the irony is that DD could self-teach.  I cannot get over that girl and her independence.  She reminds her elder brother to do projects.  Anyhoo..

 

I'm attaching a mind map about goal setting. Maybe look it over and if you have a question, contact me directly and I'll try to relay some of the info as it was explained to me.

[lgliser]

 

Since she was diagnosed without any measurable testing, you may want to get a full neuropsychological examination. IDK, maybe speak with a EF professional first and get their input.

Well, the first lady didn't do any measurable testing, but the other one did what seemed like very extensive testing.  I think I even put the results and numbers on this board back when we did it!

 

 

Maybe sit down and identify your goals WRT your child.  Based upon what you have mentioned, the untruthful behavior must stop.  She needs an acceptable way to answer questions, even if that means raising her hand and indicating that she is saying hello in Vulcan.

That's a really good idea.  I'll check out the attachment.

 

 

Finding the right CBT person can be tricky.

YUP!!!  I'm finding that.  It's overwhelming.  It's like we finally came to the conclusion that we needed to seek help.  That was a huge step, especially for DH.  We found the lady we used and thought, this will be it.  The help we needed.  Nope.  So then, like I said, I figured the behavioral clinic would absolutely be what we were looking for.  But... I'm not even sure about that! 

 

We also did a stint of trying meds with Sophie.  We tried 2 different ones, each with a few different doses.  That was an even bigger step for us than seeking help from a professional.  They didn't make a difference.  Apparently there are still more meds and of course other doses.  But we were so overwhelmed and feeling pressure from family not to put her on meds at all, so we just decided to stop and renew our patience and strategies.  This was quite a while back....

[Heathermomster]

Wowser! I just went back and read some of your postings. Did you ever get the hearing sorted? How is the math? Would you mind linking the thread where you posted scores?

 

Here's the deal...My DS shuts down on certain subjects due to his SLDs. He has been writing narrations for awhile now. Even though he can write a basic paragraph, I still have to hand hold him through a literary compare/contrast essay. Once he internalizes a skill, he is good. My challenge is teaching the skill.

 

I almost wonder whether your child has undiagnosed SLDs. Undiagnosed kiddos without acommodation and appropriate instruction commonly exhibit negative coping strategies. All of what you have descibed today fall under the category of negative coping strategy. Maybe take all of your testing and sensory/OT reports to a licensed clinical psychologist and have a full neuropsych evaluation run. Just a quick run through of your postings suggest issues. Whenever your DD makes it to the behaviorist, talk with them and get their feedback. They may actaully suggest a specific person that could test and diagnose.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Heathermomster

[lgliser]

 

 

Wowser! I just went back and read some of your postings. Did you ever get the hearing sorted? How is the math? Would you mind linking the thread where you posted scores?

 

Here's the deal...My DS shuts down on certain subjects due to his SLDs. He has been writing narrations for awhile now. Even though he can write a basic paragraph, I still have to hand hold him through a literary compare/contrast essay. Once he internalizes a skill, he is good. My challenge is teaching the skill. 

 

 

 

 

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/605088-test-results-are-in/

Found the link!  It took some digging.  You even commented on it!  And of course, lies were mentioned in this thread too!  :blushing:

 

The hearing thread... I think that was my other daughter, Julia.  And math is going pretty well right now :)

 

 

 

I almost wonder whether your child has undiagnosed SLDs. Undiagnosed kiddos without acommodation and appropriate instruction commonly exhibit negative coping strategies. All of what you have descibed today fall under the category of negative coping strategy. Maybe take all of your testing and sensory/OT reports to a licensed clinical psychologist and have a full neuropsych evaluation run. Just a quick run through of your postings suggest issues. Whenever your DD makes it to the behaviorist, talk with them and get their feedback. They may actaully suggest a specific person that could test and diagnose. 

So a behaviorist would diagnose an SLD?  And I guess I'm showing my lack of knowledge again here, but I thought that she had a neuropsych eval when we went to the behavioral clinic.  I don't know.  Maybe it wasn't as extensive as I thought.  I guess I will ask my ped again for a recommendation for a clinical psychologist.

[kbutton]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I would like to see your other thread too. I vaguely remember you talking about your daughter and that things were kind of sketchy regarding a diagnosis. In this thread, she sounds like she has some autism spectrum traits, strongly so (my son has ASD).

 

Anxiety is awful. 

 

My son likes a checklist, but then he kind of gets on autopilot--not really remembering if it was today, yesterday, etc. that he did the task. We've found that having him write down what he DOES do actually prompts his brain better. If she has not internalized this list yet, maybe you could have her write down what she remembers to do (or you write it down after she does it and then comes to you), and then you can have her look at the rest of the list and see what's left. Make a game of improving her score. Maybe she could have tokens for what she does that she can trade in for some prize or privilege on a certain day of the week (or save up for big stuff once you find a workable system and get it going well). You wouldn't take tokens away at first. Later, you might have some make it or break it things that would lower her token total each day (my son has some things he loses tokens for--it lowers his daily total. We do this only because those things literally make or break the whole day, and he has reached a point where he is totally capable of doing them without reminders). We are doing something like this with the help of a behaviorist. It's something to learn, implement, and tweak in stages. Rushing things or setting things up as too high stakes are real threats to the plan and stability, so that is why I think you could use some help. BCBAs do this kind of thing all the time. They will also have some good ideas of how to keep the to-do's and expectations very concrete and real to your daughter.

 

I really think a BCBA could be a big help to you. I know CBT is also good, but I think some kids need even more concrete and straight out behavioral therapy before they can work on the cognitive stuff behind that behavior. My son "gets" the cognitive behind the behavior, but the behavior and in the moment stuff overrules his good sense. The C part of CBT will have to wait a bit for him, though we certainly talk about it (carefully). He doesn't like to "need" this kind of intervention, but he knows it really works for him, and he loves his BCBA.

[kbutton]

VERY quick glance at the scores...the low fluid reasoning and the very big struggles with motor coordination make these daily tasks total H-e double hockey sticks for her, I would guess. Others can chime in with their agreement or disagreement.

 

I would not expect independence in these areas at all right now.

 

I would look for other skills that she's more likely to be successful, build those up, and for now, treat her likes she's 4 y.o. in these areas. Truly. Give her "chores" in areas where she rocks and build her up.

 

For things like putting on deodorant, etc., gently feel out whether she would be willing to have help. You might also consider what to use for deodorant that might be easier to apply. I use milk of magnesia for deodorant. I pour some into a container with a screw on lid, and I let it dry out a bit. Then I put it on with clean fingers. Maybe something like that would be easier than a stick. She can FEEL where she puts it. (It really does need to thicken up for a child to be able to use it.) An OT might have some ideas for that or things to practice. 

[kbutton]

If deodorant is super hard by any measure, maybe she can simply wash her pits more than once per day. Get her some fun-smelling wipes and have her do it AM and at lunch. 

[MomatHWTK]

Start with the ADHD diagnosis and do some research. Often, we receive the dx but we don't get the full map of what that means. ADHD is WAY more than not being able to concentrate or being hyper-the things people usually associate with the condition. It is very complex and affects most areas of cognition. So, start reading and find out about the details. 

[Heathermomster]

No, the behaviorist might be able to recommend a tester.

[Heathermomster]

I agree with kbutton. Stick with the behaviorist not CBT. I don't know why, but I was thinking motor issues when I looked at the scores too.

[lgliser]

Ya, the behavioralist originally had said OT and PT for her, but the actual PT/OT person wasn't sure what sort of motor skills were a problem and as her mom, I had no clue what they were talking about.  Sophie is a fairly physical and coordinated kiddo.  She does well at dance!  And fine motor seems ok to me too.  Her handwriting has improved this last year SO much and it's actually fantastic.  She is a great little artist too.

[kbutton]

Ya, the behavioralist originally had said OT and PT for her, but the actual PT/OT person wasn't sure what sort of motor skills were a problem and as her mom, I had no clue what they were talking about.  Sophie is a fairly physical and coordinated kiddo.  She does well at dance!  And fine motor seems ok to me too.  Her handwriting has improved this last year SO much and it's actually fantastic.  She is a great little artist too.

 

I think the Beery VMI tests visual motor integration. Has she had an exam with a developmental optometrist (someone who has COVD.org credentials)? She can have perfect vision but have problems with the motor aspect of vision. 

 

It's hard when professionals only sort of see stuff, recommend to follow up with someone who then only sort of sees stuff...I would get a developmental vision exam.

 

Both of my kids needed vision therapy to make their eyes and bodies work together. Both of them had areas of high and low motor skills, and they also had retained primitive reflexes (the reflexes you are supposed to shed as a baby). Working on that made a huge difference.

[PeterPan]

Gotcha :)  I will change the way I word things with her.

 

Poor Sophie, I know you are right.  I try really hard to tell her it's ok.  That she's not in trouble for not doing Quizlet (or whatever), but that I just wanted to remind her that it needs to get done.

 

LOL It's always frustrating when someone posts and question needing advice and people give advice and the OP is like, "I've tried that" to everyone.  But here I am saying, "we've tried that too!"  :laugh:   I like checklists.  I feel that they're a helpful way to have the kids get things done without me nagging.  They simply look at the checklist, do it, mark it as done. 

 

We have a checklist upstairs to help them remember what needs to be done up there.  They're "getting ready" checklist.  Everything from brush teeth, make bed, get dressed, deodorant.  And for two of the kids, the list is probably unnecessary at this point.  For Sophie, who gets distracted so easily, I would think that it would be very helpful.

 

The downstairs list has things like Quizlet, who's turn it is to wipe the table down after lunch, practice piano, etc.

 

Sophie marks things done without having actually done them though. 

 

You mentioned making myself scarce too.  Most of the things on their list are things that they get done in the morning while I'm still upstairs getting ready, putting some laundry away, or whatever work I need to do.  So I trust that my 9 year olds can follow the list and do things without me hoovering.  I wish!

 

And again, guys, I don't expect perfection.  From any of them!  To-Do lists are not FUN.  Kids slack.  Adults slack!  I get that.

 

But back to the original issue.  Sophie lies about having done things that she did not do.  She doesn't like doing Quizlet so she marks it off so I'll think she did it.  She has told me that she knows what she's doing at the time.  She doesn't like putting things where they need to go in her room so she shoves things under her bed and checks "clean room" off the list. 

 

Maybe scarceness isn't good for this kid?  Perhaps if I was around, she would realize that she can't get out of doing something?

 

You had a bunch of responses, so I just pulled this one to quote.  My comments are hitting points from several.

 

I think you're crying because it's hard and confusing and overwhelming, and that's ok.  You really have to hit the wall sometimes to know what to change and why.  As far as your test scores, I'm looking through them and pairing them with what you're saying.  You might want to re-read your report.  Just because the psych didn't emphasize something doesn't mean there wasn't more useful information there.  That Theory of Mind score is astonishing.  What test did they use?  When you pair that with the super low fluid reasoning, it's very obvious why she'd have trouble in fast social situations, anything that puts her on the spot.  Her theory of mind is not adequate to let her take perspective on things and her fluid reasoning makes it hard to problem solve.

 

Did they run a GARS or ADI-R on her?  I'm going to ask what is causing the exceptionally poor theory of mind.  In the ps, with scores like that she'd get social thinking interventions.  So you DEFINITELY have something you can do there, and that one thing could change your lives.  But I'm going to ask again, what's underlying that score?  Because that's wicked low just to pop outta no where.  

 

Things get missed on girls.  Given the level of frustration and the exceptionally poor social thinking, I suggest you find the most experienced behaviorist you can and see if they can explore with you, not only how to work on the behaviors, but whether there's an explanation for that poor theory of mind.  Some behaviorists (BCBA, whatever) work under psychologists.  It would be a 2nd opinion, looking for what may have gotten missed, taking some time, doing some in-home observations.  The challenge for homeschoolers is that we don't necessarily have enough people seeing the behaviors WE see in order to get those behaviors marked on forms and diagnosed.  So in-home observations and work by someone who specializes in behavior problems can help.  It helped us.  That's when things finally became clear for us, when a behaviorist spend hours in our home.  

 

Ok, now I'm going to give you behavioral work 101.  You've got to stop moralizing behavior.  Because let's just say something is wrong.  Then maybe the behavior is communicating and isn't just a moral thing.  You'll want to chew on that.

 

Thing two, you're going to have to sit down, take a deep breath, and think through Mom control.  Up until now you've not had anybody validating that hard things were happening, so you were parenting in a random good way with results that didn't match what typically would have happened.  But now you've got somebody saying WE BELIEVE YOU.  That means you need to shift to very intentional, careful parenting, SN parenting.  We BELIEVE you that something is wrong, but it's time to get the next step in tools.  That means bringing in a behaviorist, I think.  Read some books on FBA (functional behavior analysis) and behavior log a bit.  I'm running low on time here, but basically I'm saying you're going to have to slow down.  No reflexive parenting.  The most immediate thing is to slow down random questions, make sure that any demands you're making are thought through, and try to pick something to praise more.  If a professional came into your home right now, that's what they would do, they would slow down, and they would find something to praise that they want to emphasize.  They would overlook anything that seemed like a moral failing, slow down the pace of the demands, support more, and praise hitting targets.  They would set the child up to be able to hit the target behavior.  

 

For instance, you send her to her room to clean.  She WENT to her room, so praise that!  Kwim?  That's something to praise!  So then you go to her room, praise saying wow you did such a good job obeying when I asked you to go to your room to clean, high 5.  Now let's work together on this, can we sing and make it go faster?  And as far as the not wanting to put away, that to me means something is overwhelmed.  You can explore what, but something there has a breakdown.  System too complex.  Maybe she can't handle the STEPS.  Sequencing is an issue with some kids.  She may need a visual schedule or supports and routine to know what to put away first.  It may be overwhelming to her to break down the task into steps.  Or it may be too much.  You might need to remove a lot of what is in her room.

 

Gotta scat, but that's enough to get you started.  Reread your report, slow down, get some help and work on a 2nd opinion on the psych eval.  I would call a behaviorist.  Worst that could happen is they look at you funny and say you don't need me.  Fine.  But ours is super sweet, super helpful, and well she helped us sort out a lot.  You won't know till you try, till you ask for help.  And in-home is where it's at.

SaveSave

[PeterPan]

What do you mean behavioralist?  What was the label/qualification of the person at the clinic?  A behaviorist or BCBA will typically have a masters, sometimes a BA in psych plus training.  Only rarely do you see one with a phd.  

 

The OT referral may have been for self-regulation.  That's definitely in the perview of OT, though a behaviorist can help too.

 

Backing up.  A behavioral clinic in a hospital is probably still being run by phd psychs.  They're not the same as what we're saying by a behaviorist, a BCBA.  Check and see who did your evals.  You may be thinking what you went to was a behaviorist and it was actually a nice phd psch in a clinic that specializes in behavioral disorders.

[Serenade]

Is it possible she thought about putting on deodorant, and then convinced herself that she actually did it?

 

I have noticed this with my oldest (who probably has a similar grouping of issues). He'll be playing on his kindle before bed and I'll tell him to go brush his teeth. Okay, he says, once he's done with whatever he's making and can save the game. Okay, that's fine. But then later when he goes up for bed I ask him if he brushed his teeth, and he says yes, of course. But when did he brush his teeth? Earlier, he says. After asking him a bunch of questions (did he brush right when he came upstairs? after he put down his kindle? did he stop playing, brush, and then go back to his kindle?) he'll eventually realize that no, he thought about brushing teeth, he had a plan for doing it, but then he forgot to actually do that plan, and confused the plan for reality. 

 

This happens often, in lots of different situations. I don't really know what's up with it. Asking what he was doing before or after whatever he thought he didn't (or did) do is usually enough to show him that it is a false memory.

I have one who does this.

 

Sometimes I think he really believes his lie is true.

[lgliser]

Quick reply here... the kids are at art class.  I'm doing a lot of research.  I googled behaviorists in our city and a lot of dog trainers popped up!  I have a call in to the doctor who initially did her testing.  I'm starting there.

 

I am reading about low theory of mind right now since those numbers were so so low.  I didn't get to see the actual testing that he did and I am curious how one tests theory of mind.  Do you guys know?

[lgliser]

Oh I just found this:  http://www.theoryofmindinventory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/ToM_task_battery_5_29_14.pdf

 

That's probably a lot like what they did?  Looking over it, I feel like Sophie would do pretty well.  I'll try it though when she gets home.

[PeterPan]

Look in your report for the name of the test.

 

Google BCBA for the behaviorist.

[PeterPan]

Adding we've done several social thinking and ToM tests and they're all a little different. So get the name.

[PeterPan]

Ha, still adding! That's why girls are so hard to diagnose, because their girl strengths mask the weaknesses.

[Zhay]

lgliser, how are things going? I had to reply because my 7yo ds lies like a rug. Our eval ruled out adhd and spd but I disagree. They did identify a reading disability.

 

I've found that for him, questioning is actually somewhat effective. I think he could be trying to save face but it generally seems to be avoidance. Avoiding trouble and work. It is super aggravating because I cannot trust anything he says and he's a really good liar. He's dramatic and good at acting in general.

 

I don't want him to think lying is okay and I don't want him to feel like a liar is part of his identity either. I also cannot closely supervise him at all times. I've thought about getting cameras in the house just to see what he's doing!

 

Anywho, wanted to let you know you're not alone in feeling that lying is a problem, adhd or not. I was also a superb liar as an adhd kid. I don't think my mother caught me very often.

[RandSand]

I don't have time to scan through all this but check into links on this on the ADDitude.mag site. It is completely linked to ADHD and the fact that her brain is different. I am an adult with ADHD and remember doing this as a child almost like an involuntary response. Remember kids with ADHD have about 10 negative interactions for every positive one, especially if they are unmediated and don't have much control over impulses or even know what it feels like. They may even be still reeling from the thing you are asking them about trying to figure out if THEY even know why they did it.