Math help for a behind ten year old

[Ariston]

This may be an impossible request, but I'm hoping someone can help me!

 

I have a 10 yo daughter who, for a variety of reasons which I will not get in to here, has had an inconsistent and inadequate education in math.

 

So this year and next I really want to get her to the point where I feel that she has a good conceptual foundation in elementary math, before moving on to pre-alg, etc.

 

This year what we are doing so far is:

Teaching Textbooks, 4 + 5. We are doing these because they are painless so far, she will do them without complaint, and it seems like an easy way to make sure that she can at least do all the basic kinds of problems and fill in any gaps. She's started on 4 and is doing two per day. I should probably up it to 3 because they're very easy for her so far. I want to get through 5 by the end of the year.

 

Dreambox. At first she complained bitterly about this, but now she is starting to get into it I think. I'm hoping this will supplement the TT with some more conceptual problem solving strategies. She finds it difficult but I think it's helping her.

 

Xtramath for facts and prodigy for fun/practice.

 

So after we get through TT 5, does anyone have any advice for how to build the conceptual skills of an older student? I will basically have one year. (To give you an example of her weakness, if we are subtracting three digit numbers, she might do it and get the right answer, but will not be able to talk about different ways to solve the problem. She doesn't seem to have a very deep number sense, and is not really able to talk about manipulating numbers.)

 

I'm stuck on what to do because to use the programs that I feel are strong in this area I would have to start her way behind her grade level, and then we'd never catch up.

 

Ideally there'd be a program out there that was for older/remedial students that aimed to deepen their understanding of arithmetic. Anyone?

[EKS]

If you want to build number sense and conceptual understanding, I'd use Singapore.  I'd give her the placement test and start where she places.  Don't worry if she places really low (if this happens it is probably due to the word problems).  Singapore is easy to accelerate, so you can move quickly through the stuff she already knows and slow down on what she doesn't.  Once you finish Singapore 5, she will be ready for a solid prealgebra program.

 

If this sounds like too much, there is a program called Knowing Mathematics by Liping Ma that is supposed to help older students sharpen and deepen their arithmetic skills.  I have not used it (even though I own it) and never have known anyone who has, so I can't tell you if it really works or not. 

[Ariston]

I didn't know Liping Ma authored a program, but that looks like it might be exactly what I need!

 

I will look into Singapore too.  I'm never very good at accelerating programs because I'm always scared I'm skipping things, and then I get bogged down.  But maybe the programs I've tried just haven't been as easy to accelerate.

[shinyhappypeople]

This may be an impossible request, but I'm hoping someone can help me!

 

I have a 10 yo daughter who, for a variety of reasons which I will not get in to here, has had an inconsistent and inadequate education in math.

 

So this year and next I really want to get her to the point where I feel that she has a good conceptual foundation in elementary math, before moving on to pre-alg, etc.

 

This year what we are doing so far is:

Teaching Textbooks, 4 + 5. We are doing these because they are painless so far, she will do them without complaint, and it seems like an easy way to make sure that she can at least do all the basic kinds of problems and fill in any gaps. She's started on 4 and is doing two per day. I should probably up it to 3 because they're very easy for her so far. I want to get through 5 by the end of the year.

 

Dreambox. At first she complained bitterly about this, but now she is starting to get into it I think. I'm hoping this will supplement the TT with some more conceptual problem solving strategies. She finds it difficult but I think it's helping her.

 

Xtramath for facts and prodigy for fun/practice.

 

So after we get through TT 5, does anyone have any advice for how to build the conceptual skills of an older student? I will basically have one year. (To give you an example of her weakness, if we are subtracting three digit numbers, she might do it and get the right answer, but will not be able to talk about different ways to solve the problem. She doesn't seem to have a very deep number sense, and is not really able to talk about manipulating numbers.)

 

I'm stuck on what to do because to use the programs that I feel are strong in this area I would have to start her way behind her grade level, and then we'd never catch up.

 

Ideally there'd be a program out there that was for older/remedial students that aimed to deepen their understanding of arithmetic. Anyone?

 

My older DD struggles with math.  She's got a snazzy LD label and everything.  We, too, use TT.  

 

Early on TT is very easy, so yeah, multiple lessons a day are no big deal, but it gets harder.  Pushing through the harder lessons at a breakneck speed won't necessarily serve her well in the long run.  I used to try to do this with my DD and it turned out to be a waste of time, because she wasn't really learning the concepts, so she'd forget a lot of what she'd done and we'd have to go back and repeat stuff I thought she's learned again and again.  The moral of my story is this: Finishing the level isn't the same as learning the material.  Hopefully, both happen, but it is entirely possible to accomplish one without the other.  

 

Right Start games are good for building number sense.  So is Miquon with C-rods (ignore the grade levels and just start at the beginning).  Whatever you decide, I'd work on number sense now rather than later.   Kids with weak place value understanding and poor number sense will eventually stall out, even with easier math programs like TT.  Spend a month or two shoring up her math foundations now, and she'll have a much easier time catching up to grade level math.  I promise.

[shinyhappypeople]

If you want to build number sense and conceptual understanding, I'd use Singapore.  I'd give her the placement test and start where she places.  Don't worry if she places really low (if this happens it is probably due to the word problems).  Singapore is easy to accelerate, so you can move quickly through the stuff she already knows and slow down on what she doesn't.  Once you finish Singapore 5, she will be ready for a solid prealgebra program.

 

If this sounds like too much, there is a program called Knowing Mathematics by Liping Ma that is supposed to help older students sharpen and deepen their arithmetic skills.  I have not used it (even though I own it) and never have known anyone who has, so I can't tell you if it really works or not. 

 

Hey, I used to have this one!  

 

It won't help much with number sense (sad but true) but it will help a typical learner who has some knowledge gaps or needs review to cover a lot of ground quickly.  And it's a lot cheaper than TT :)

[Ariston]

My older DD struggles with math.  She's got a snazzy LD label and everything.  We, too, use TT.  

 

Early on TT is very easy, so yeah, multiple lessons a day are no big deal, but it gets harder.  Pushing through the harder lessons at a breakneck speed won't necessarily serve her well in the long run.  I used to try to do this with my DD and it turned out to be a waste of time, because she wasn't really learning the concepts, so she'd forget a lot of what she'd done and we'd have to go back and repeat stuff I thought she's learned again and again.  The moral of my story is this: Finishing the level isn't the same as learning the material.  Hopefully, both happen, but it is entirely possible to accomplish one without the other.  

 

Right Start games are good for building number sense.  So is Miquon with C-rods (ignore the grade levels and just start at the beginning).  Whatever you decide, I'd work on number sense now rather than later.   Kids with weak place value understanding and poor number sense will eventually stall out, even with easier math programs like TT.  Spend a month or two shoring up her math foundations now, and she'll have a much easier time catching up to grade level math.  I promise.

 

We will definitely slow down when it gets harder.  Did your daughter need more help outside of TT or were the lessons/practice enough to 'get it?'  Its one of the first programs I've used that she only complains minimally about ;)

 

She has done I think 4 out of the 6 Miquon books, and didn't mind them too much either.  Maybe I should have her finish that up.  And I have the RS games still shrink wrapped, somewhere in this house!   I will try to find those and finally get over my mental block to actually learn how to use them.

​TY for the encouragement!  I think you're right.  It is probably better to tackle this now rather than later.  I think I was just enjoying the relative calm that came with the computer teaching her math for a while :)

[Ariston]

Hey, I used to have this one!  

 

It won't help much with number sense (sad but true) but it will help a typical learner who has some knowledge gaps or needs review to cover a lot of ground quickly.  And it's a lot cheaper than TT :)

 

Yeah, no kidding.  It looks like it can be gotten for pennies on Amazon.  We are lucky to have gotten TT from a friend, but I'm thinking I'll get the Liping Ma books (at least the 4th grade one) and see.  It also looks like each grade is just 12 weeks of instruction or so?

[shinyhappypeople]

We will definitely slow down when it gets harder.  Did your daughter need more help outside of TT or were the lessons/practice enough to 'get it?'  Its one of the first programs I've used that she only complains minimally about ;)

 

She has done I think 4 out of the 6 Miquon books, and didn't mind them too much either.  Maybe I should have her finish that up.  And I have the RS games still shrink wrapped, somewhere in this house!   I will try to find those and finally get over my mental block to actually learn how to use them.

​TY for the encouragement!  I think you're right.  It is probably better to tackle this now rather than later.  I think I was just enjoying the relative calm that came with the computer teaching her math for a while :)

 

The teaching in TT is mostly enough, but I had to re-teach the lesson on decimals (it is so, so bad) as well as long division.   Mostly, though, she just had to be mentally ready to tackle the material.  She's turning 13 and just now finishing up TT 4.  This is not our first attempt at tackling TT 4, but this is our first successful and complete attempt :)  

 

Your child is probably ready, so TT 4 will likely be fine.  Which reminds me of the other thing I learned: pushing DD ahead of where she was at is futile and, ironically, slowed down her progress. I'm not suggesting you're doing this.  I'm just sharing :)

 

By the way, I completely understand the pleasure of outsourcing (sort of) math.    :grouphug:

[Caraway]

Check out the math videos on http://www.educationunboxed.com/ .  She demos with young kids, but I have found lots of things to try with my 9 yo.

[u2006kids]

Check out the math videos on http://www.educationunboxed.com/ .  She demos with young kids, but I have found lots of things to try with my 9 yo.

love  http://www.educationunboxed.com/ 

but CTC math really helps if u r behind... 

you can zoom in on a topic and then work and work on it until it gets better

i did that with long division and TT Math .

[Abeilles]

I'm sorry - I was in a similar boat about 1 1/2 years ago. I had to make up some lost time in math for my two older children. They were starting 5th grade and were behind for several different reasons. After consulting the Hive, I started them on CLE Math a few of the last 300 series, then all of 400 and 500 and right into 600. They are now finishing 607 this month in 6th grade and I have them on track for doing Pre-aglebra in 6th and possibly Algebra in 7th. So don't lose hope, it is possible to get them back on track. We didn't do math all day long - we just double up lessons for review and did a solid 1 hour of math each day. CLE was perfect for us as it is so gentle, incremental, and spiral, that my math phobic daughter didn't even realize she was learning! CLE math was a great choice in our situation of having to play major catch up! 

 

Here was my cry for help :0 - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/564211-need-guidance-for-math-please-help/?do=findComment&comment=6582813

 

[Abeilles]

Also - if she needs help with Fractions, decimals, etc - CLE Math has a great book just on Fractions that takes them from early skills up through 7th grade material. My children did that over the summer to prepare for Pre-Algebra. The Keys to. . . are also very good books for catch up/practice.

 

[alisoncooks]

Following.  I have a 5th grader (10) this year, that I started back at 4th grade math for several reasons.

I'll be looking into some of the above mentioned programs; I'd love to get her back on track without sacrificing understanding. 

[AdventuresinHomeschooling]

We use Beast Academy as a fun way to build deep mathematical concepts. It is challenging, so I would start with 3a. The comic style makes them want to read it, but the practice questions are challenging. Be sure to do the placement test.

 

We also like LOF as a supplement that builds critical thinking, etc.

 

You can also get Singapore Challenging Word Problems or Zacarro

[Spy Car]

Yeah, no kidding.  It looks like it can be gotten for pennies on Amazon.  We are lucky to have gotten TT from a friend, but I'm thinking I'll get the Liping Ma books (at least the 4th grade one) and see.  It also looks like each grade is just 12 weeks of instruction or so?

 

Knowing Mathematics moves fast. Maybe too fast for some in the "remedial" market for whom it's intended, but maybe just the thing in your case? If you needed to slightly *decelerate* or reinforce lessons I'd not hesitate.

 

I'd second the recommendations for the Key to... series (written by the son of Miquon author Lore Rasmussen) and Ed Zaccaro's books for making upper level concepts easier to understand.

 

Bill

[prairiewindmomma]

I disagree with the recommendation for Singapore listed above. It is not solidly sequential with the basic skills broken down and it doesn't offer enough review for the student who needs it.

 

I recommend CLE first, or Key To....with some work with cuisenaire rods. Education Unboxed or Ronit Bird's materials are both good.

[mamamoose]

No one has recommended right start but level c really works hard at number sense and math sense. My son is using right start and TT for extra.

[debi21]

I wanted to make a few comments that your post made me think about.

 

First, to be careful about judging a child's conceptual understanding by his/her ability to verbalize things in math. It is often very hard for even excellent math students to verbalize multiple ways to solve a problem. The explaining and verbalizing often don't go hand in hand with the math. This is one of the potential pitfalls of some of the common core stuff, asking young elementary students to explain the math behind their work.

 

Second, I think, realize very few students - even good math students - are good at coming up with multiple strategies to solve a problem. I think this is something that needs to be deliberately worked on, and actually can be one of the drawbacks of homeschooling one-on-one - you don't have 20 other kids, some of whom certainly solved the problem another way. (Of course if the teacher isn't actively encouraging kids to share multiple strategies, the classroom kids don't benefit from this either). Can you model this? After the first way a problem is solved, share another way you know how to solve this. Or give hints for another way, etc. I think there needs to be a lot of repetition of the idea of going back to the problem after a solution has been attained and looking at it again. Usually kids just want to get through and never even consider this.

 

Last, I think if you're looking for more numeracy, I think mental math is an important can be a good focus. I have been looking at the Singapore-based Mental Math workbooks to add for my son - they have the look inside on amazon and I thought they looked promising and it's a relatively short and cheap workbook. 

 

I like the idea of choosing a challenge problem or two a day to go in-depth with and do together with your child. Model it out loud, make connections, and consider multiple strategies as frequently as you can. 

[Ariston]

Thank you for all of the suggestions!  I have found some resources I didn't know about before that I think will really help, and I feel more optimistic in general about our plight. Unfortunately, I posted this question during a time when I have a little bit of extra money for school expenses and have already made some impulse buys <_< I ended up getting Singapore 3A and I'll see how she does with that.  I have never liked Singapore when I looked at it before because it had too much explicit teaching for my taste, but maybe it will work for her.

 

 

Hey, I used to have this one!  

 

It won't help much with number sense (sad but true) but it will help a typical learner who has some knowledge gaps or needs review to cover a lot of ground quickly.  And it's a lot cheaper than TT :)

 

Is the teacher guide necessary for the Liping Ma?  I got the student book off Amazon for $4 but have not got the teacher guide yet.

 

I'm sorry - I was in a similar boat about 1 1/2 years ago. I had to make up some lost time in math for my two older children. They were starting 5th grade and were behind for several different reasons. After consulting the Hive, I started them on CLE Math a few of the last 300 series, then all of 400 and 500 and right into 600. They are now finishing 607 this month in 6th grade and I have them on track for doing Pre-aglebra in 6th and possibly Algebra in 7th. So don't lose hope, it is possible to get them back on track. We didn't do math all day long - we just double up lessons for review and did a solid 1 hour of math each day. CLE was perfect for us as it is so gentle, incremental, and spiral, that my math phobic daughter didn't even realize she was learning! CLE math was a great choice in our situation of having to play major catch up! 

 

Here was my cry for help :0 - http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/564211-need-guidance-for-math-please-help/?do=findComment&comment=6582813

 

Thanks, that's helpful, and so it that thread!  Would you say CLE works on deepening understanding or is it more for getting caught up in the 'how to do math' area (she needs both, but just wondering.)

 

We use Beast Academy as a fun way to build deep mathematical concepts. It is challenging, so I would start with 3a. The comic style makes them want to read it, but the practice questions are challenging. Be sure to do the placement test.

We also like LOF as a supplement that builds critical thinking, etc.

You can also get Singapore Challenging Word Problems or Zacarro

 

I thought BA and LOF would have been great, but she hates them both.  Granted, she 'hates' almost everything she is told to do at first, but she seems to be stubbornly insisting that she really does hate them, as opposed to when she says she hates something and then decides she loves it.  I just picked up CWP (2nd grade) and I'll look into Zacarro.

 

Knowing Mathematics moves fast. Maybe too fast for some in the "remedial" market for whom it's intended, but maybe just the thing in your case? If you needed to slightly *decelerate* or reinforce lessons I'd not hesitate.

 

I'd second the recommendations for the Key to... series (written by the son of Miquon author Lore Rasmussen) and Ed Zaccaro's books for making upper level concepts easier to understand.

 

Bill

 

Just looked in to these.  Now I'm thinking I need Key to....and Zacarro for my 6th grader who is getting ready to start AoPS Pre-Alg, if not my daughter too!  Anyone know where to buy Key to.... ? I was finding a lot of dead links online.  Is it out of print?

 

No one has recommended right start but level c really works hard at number sense and math sense. My son is using right start and TT for extra.

 

Did you use first or second edition?  I have RS A (first addition) and might consider using C with her if I could get a used copy, but got confused when reading old posts about the differences between 1st and 2nd.