I am loving CLE, but.. Taking way too long

[busymama7]

For two younger ones that I switched, it is way too easy but they do think it's fun so we are just blaring through doing bits of their first book. The speed drills is everyone's favorite part and between the those and the daily flash cards I finally feel like this is the perfect math for us.

 

But my 11 year old daughter really struggles with math. I placed her in 4th. We went very carefully through 401 covering everything that was new. We just did lesson 6 of 402 today and the whole lesson takes her about an hour. Now I'm ok with her spending that long on math for a time since she is so far behind. But I was hoping to be able to do two lessons a day at that pace,not only one. I know I could cross out review sections but honestly she needs them. She still makes adding and subtracting mistakes! Usually 2-3 problems a day are wrong. She knows how she's just careless. She also hates math and I think she's dragging it out a bit. I could break it up for her between other lessons but she sometimes does that on her own due to needing to wait for me and it doesn't help the time spent or the mistakes. I'm panicking because I don't want her behind. Help?

 

ETA: we started 401 over the summer to be clear. It's been almost two months although we didn't do math every day in the summer. She just struggles.

Edited August 31, 2016 by busymama7

[OneStepAtATime]

I am too tired to respond in depth this evening but I wanted to send hugs and reassurances. Math is not a race. Some kids need a lot more time/instruction/scaffolding. Please don't rush her through. She will just fall further behind. If she is struggling with addition and subtraction, use manipulatives. Slow down and try to help her solidify her understanding in the basics. Help her understand the concepts and the algorithms. I have more to say (as the parent of a daughter who struggles in math) but it will have to wait until tomorrow. In the meantime, hugs.

[Another Lynn]

busymama7, CLE math was very good for one of my math strugglers, but it was never completed quickly.  And she never could have done more than 1 lesson per day.  She was working one grade level behind her normal grade/age, but it was definitely not too easy; she was properly placed.  I don't mean to speak for others, but my guess is that kids who do more than one lesson per day probably don't really need CLE and the amount of review it has and probably would have been fine with something like Singapore.  I sometimes felt bad that we weren't able to make up ground as others said they were by doing more than one lesson per day, but there was just no way we could do that.  Like your dd, mine needed every single problem to help her really learn it.  So, just put blinders on and keep doing math for 45 min. to an hour every day.   

[FriedClams]

CLE ie designed to be done independently, but not all kids can, our should, do that. I still sit and work every problem alongside my kids, and one is in Saxon advanced math. I just think kids need to be taught, not sent to teach themselves (math especially). I'd sit with your student and watch, engage, tutor. I don't "help" or make it easy for them, but I am there keeping things moving, helping them focus, and I'm ready to help with leading questions because I just did the same problem (and likely made the same mistake!).

Edited August 31, 2016 by FriedClams

[Garga]

My son was a little behind in math, too, when we started CLE. We're still working on catching up. All told, it will be a 3 year process for us to catch him up.

 

What we do:

 

I do cross out some review. Like, if there are 3 long division problems, I'll cross out the third. If there are 6 rounding problems, I'll cross out three.

 

Sometimes I tell him, "If the ones I don't cross out are incorrect, then you'll need to do the crossed out one for practice." We don't do that very often.

 

What I've noticed with CLE is that the review is endless, so it's ok to cross out some problem. I cross out about 8 things from each lesson. The box-checker part of me hates crossing anything out, but whenever I cross things out, my son feels better about doing math. The more I do this, the more I have a feel for what he really needs to review and what he has a handle on. And crossing out a few problems makes my son feel better about doing his math, which is much needed around here. I'd recommend crossing out a few each lesson just to boost her spirits. It does wonders for his morale to see a few problems crossed out. Trust me--the things you crossed out will come back again...and again...and again.

 

Also, we skip the 2 quizzes and 1 test in each book. Over the course of 10 books, you'll have skipped 30 lessons which is 6 weeks of school. We also do a lesson a day in the summer. That's how we're catching up. By the end of this school year, he'll be completely caught up to the level I'd like him to be.

 

We also had to stop doing the speed drills because the stress it was causing him was more harm than good. We tried doing them untimed for a bit, but that part of the program just didn't click for him. Note: he's still slow on the mathfacts though. He's at the end of the 5th grade books, but still has to pause for his facts. So...maybe skipping the speed drills was a mistake. If they cause her anxiety, you can always do them untimed, or triple the time or something.

[Lots of boys]

Hi,

 

I also find CLE long too but I really see how well it is helping my kids so we stick with it. We cross out some review and usually only do the larger light unit test at the end, not the quizzes. This helps us but we still find it hard to finish in a year and my boys usually take about 45min - hour a day on math.

 

I would just go at whatever pace works and don't worry too much about grade level.

[Guest]

I skip the speed drills and the flash card work, except when Ds wants to do it. We shore up fact memorization with copious amounts of math games outside of official school time.

[busymama7]

I skip the speed drills and the flash card work, except when Ds wants to do it. We shore up fact memorization with copious amounts of math games outside of official school time.

I can't do that as this is a huge part of why I like it. Fact practice wasn't happening and I knew they needed it. The drills don't stress her out. She thinks they are fun. Same with the two younger ones especially my 8 year old. Highly competitive personality and he loves it. :)

[busymama7]

I am too tired to respond in depth this evening but I wanted to send hugs and reassurances. Math is not a race. Some kids need a lot more time/instruction/scaffolding. Please don't rush her through. She will just fall further behind. If she is struggling with addition and subtraction, use manipulatives. Slow down and try to help her solidify her understanding in the basics. Help her understand the concepts and the algorithms. I have more to say (as the parent of a daughter who struggles in math) but it will have to wait until tomorrow. In the meantime, hugs.

Thank you. I know this is true. I do. I just know what never really catching up did for my other daughter emotionally. I mean she's going to college but she has to take a remedial math class and I'm try so hard to avoid that here with this one. I will try having her use the manipulatives for the first of everyone kind of problem and see if that helps. She does things like forget to borrow and just subtract the top number from the bottom. As soon as I let her know the problem is wrong she finds her mistake. I don't think it's lack of understanding. She just doesn't pay close enough attention.

[busymama7]

busymama7, CLE math was very good for one of my math strugglers, but it was never completed quickly. And she never could have done more than 1 lesson per day. She was working one grade level behind her normal grade/age, but it was definitely not too easy; she was properly placed. I don't mean to speak for others, but my guess is that kids who do more than one lesson per day probably don't really need CLE and the amount of review it has and probably would have been fine with something like Singapore. I sometimes felt bad that we weren't able to make up ground as others said they were by doing more than one lesson per day, but there was just no way we could do that. Like your dd, mine needed every single problem to help her really learn it. So, just put blinders on and keep doing math for 45 min. to an hour every day.

Thank you. I know it's working. She's getting more confidant and feels better about math but she still sees that "4" on the cover and she's actually in 6th grade so that is just hard. Summer birthday so I wish I would have red shirted her but it's too late. (It matters for extracurriculars etc)

Edited August 31, 2016 by busymama7

[busymama7]

Double post

Edited August 31, 2016 by busymama7

[busymama7]

CLE ie designed to be done independently, but not all kids can, our should, do that. I still sit and work every problem alongside my kids, and one is in Saxon advanced math. I just think kids need to be taught, not sent to teach themselves (math especially). I'd sit with your student and watch, engage, tutor. I don't "help" or make it easy for them, but I am there keeping things moving, helping them focus, and I'm ready to help with leading questions because I just did the same problem (and likely made the same mistake!).

Thank you for your thoughts. I will have to see what I can do about this. I have 6 kids still left at home, 2 preschoolers and 5 students, 3 of whom are dyslexic. Sigh. Being able to teach the lesson and work through those problems and then have her do the review parts on her own is really helpful.

[busymama7]

My son was a little behind in math, too, when we started CLE. We're still working on catching up. All told, it will be a 3 year process for us to catch him up.

 

What we do:

 

I do cross out some review. Like, if there are 3 long division problems, I'll cross out the third. If there are 6 rounding problems, I'll cross out three.

 

Sometimes I tell him, "If the ones I don't cross out are incorrect, then you'll need to do the crossed out one for practice." We don't do that very often.

 

What I've noticed with CLE is that the review is endless, so it's ok to cross out some problem. I cross out about 8 things from each lesson. The box-checker part of me hates crossing anything out, but whenever I cross things out, my son feels better about doing math. The more I do this, the more I have a feel for what he really needs to review and what he has a handle on. And crossing out a few problems makes my son feel better about doing his math, which is much needed around here. I'd recommend crossing out a few each lesson just to boost her spirits. It does wonders for his morale to see a few problems crossed out. Trust me--the things you crossed out will come back again...and again...and again.

 

Also, we skip the 2 quizzes and 1 test in each book. Over the course of 10 books, you'll have skipped 30 lessons which is 6 weeks of school. We also do a lesson a day in the summer. That's how we're catching up. By the end of this school year, he'll be completely caught up to the level I'd like him to be.

 

We also had to stop doing the speed drills because the stress it was causing him was more harm than good. We tried doing them untimed for a bit, but that part of the program just didn't click for him. Note: he's still slow on the mathfacts though. He's at the end of the 5th grade books, but still has to pause for his facts. So...maybe skipping the speed drills was a mistake. If they cause her anxiety, you can always do them untimed, or triple the time or something.

Skipping speed drills isn't going to happen and she's ok with them. It is working really well too. I think the flash cards and speed drills is about the best thing with this program. I am going to do the crossing out of some problems, leaving them for practice if some are missed. I had that exact thought yesterday so I think I will give it a shot. We did skip the quizz from lesson 5 but I wanted her to do the lesson for the Roman numerals. But by the time she corrected the previous day's problems and did that part of 5 I called it a day. We will keep playing that by ear.

[busymama7]

Hi,

 

I also find CLE long too but I really see how well it is helping my kids so we stick with it. We cross out some review and usually only do the larger light unit test at the end, not the quizzes. This helps us but we still find it hard to finish in a year and my boys usually take about 45min - hour a day on math.

 

I would just go at whatever pace works and don't worry too much about grade level.

I'm trying. I just don't want her to think she's bad at math for ever. She knows where she is and that she's behind. I've down played it a lot and told her it doesn't matter but she still knows. She's a lot like myolder daughter. Reads a ton, loves to draw and create etc but math just does not make sense to her. No number sense at ALL. It actually kind of shocks me sometimes how little/no intitutivness they have both had with regard to numbers.

[Critterfixer]

Since you have a couple with dyslexia, could this child have dyscalculia? I don't know enough about the condition to be of any real help, but your comment about dyslexia in your family and the number sense problem with two of your children made me think about it.

 

An hour is a reasonable estimate for a CLE lesson, IMO, if they are placed correctly. It's not the easiest program to accelerate, but from what you are saying, acceleration isn't really what she needs. 

[busymama7]

Since you have a couple with dyslexia, could this child have dyscalculia? I don't know enough about the condition to be of any real help, but your comment about dyslexia in your family and the number sense problem with two of your children made me think about it.

 

An hour is a reasonable estimate for a CLE lesson, IMO, if they are placed correctly. It's not the easiest program to accelerate, but from what you are saying, acceleration isn't really what she needs.

Yes it is quite possible/probable but i don't know much about it either. I need to look into it more. And you are right. She doesn't need to accelerate. I just wish we could get her up to grade level.

[OneStepAtATime]

OP, big hugs.  I appreciate how hard you are trying to do what is right for each of your children.  When there are multiple kids with learning challenges that adds a LOT more to the mix.   :grouphug:

 

I agree with Critterfixer, if there is dyslexia in your family (or DH's family) and you have two students who struggle with number sense then you may be seeing dyscalculia.  That is a whole 'nother kettle of fish for trying to help with math.  I realize it is exceedingly demoralizing for a student to feel "behind".  The fact is, though, that if she has dyscalculia then just continually pressing forward when she probably has weak subitization skills and certainly poor number sense is frequently counterproductive.  Also, when you say she is being careless, in all likelihood what she is dealing with is her brain being overwhelmed and struggling to keep all the zillions of pertinent pieces of information straight in her head when her natural math sense doesn't exist.  It has to be explicitly taught and continually reviewed because the normal number sense most people are born with isn't there for her.  That isn't carelessness, it is overload.  

 

Since you are also teaching quite a few other children is there any way you could outsource math for this one child?  

 

You might also look at the Ronit Bird books and e-books that are specifically designed for dyscalculics.  Possibly also something like Dynamo Math.

 

I have a daughter with dsycalculia and dyslexia.  Working to remediate the dyslexia has been a cake walk compared to remediating the math issues.  With the dyslexia, we started over completely with a specialized dyslexia reading program in 6th grade and things finally started clicking.  It has been slow but she has made tremendous strides.  Math?  That has taken a LOT of time, patience and moving very carefully, with lots of teacher intensive sessions with manipulatives and outside the box approaches.  We use CLE but with lots of scaffolding and other resources.  I also changed how some things are approached because it made more sense for her brain.  For instance, we use Lattice Method for multiplication.  We use partial quotient for division.  Those processes were confusing to me but made much more sense to her than the normal format.

 

Evaluations might help you to help her.  Unfortunately, there are few professionals truly qualified to diagnose dyscalculia.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

[Critterfixer]

 

 Also, when you say she is being careless, in all likelihood what she is dealing with is her brain being overwhelmed and struggling to keep all the zillions of pertinent pieces of information straight in her head when her natural math sense doesn't exist.  It has to be explicitly taught and continually reviewed because the normal number sense most people are born with isn't there for her.  That isn't carelessness, it is overload.  

 

Even if children are average at math (I have two average kids) things still take time and tons of review. And overload still happens from time to time. As does carelessness. 

 

As far as getting caught up, I agree that it can be demoralizing, but to me it is more important to build confidence and remove fear before trying to accelerate. If you have her buy in to do more, you could try adding two lessons a week by either doing 1/2 of the second lesson each day (as evening work!) for 4 days, or having "study lessons" on Saturday and Sunday. You could always do summer math. That's what we do. This is all assuming that she isn't afraid of the subject or struggling where she is. Also this assumes that she doesn't have a math issue like dyscalculia to contend with.

[G5052]

One of mine was like that when we switched, but thankfully it got better. I also set a timer so that he only did 30 minutes of math at a time. He had to finish one lesson but not all at once.

 

I also crossed out review problems occasionally, but only at the beginning when we were transitioning. Over time I expected that he do them all.

[Sahamamama]

We use CLE Math here, too. It's working well for all three of my students. Some lesson really do take a long time. I wouldn't worry about how much time it takes. A lesson a day, slow and steady, will lead to progress over time.

 

For a student who needed more time to master concepts and skills, I wouldn't try to accelerate by doing more than one lesson per day. Those lessons are long (IMO), but they are also "just right" in that they provide the review and mastery that many students need.

 

Instead, I might accelerate by skipping three lessons per book -- Lesson 5 (quiz), Lesson 10 (quiz), and Lesson 17 (Fascinating Discoveries/Just for Fun). The quizzes don't really cover any new material, and the 17th lesson is optional, anyway. We usually just do the optional lessons, but then we continue with the next "real" lesson. So we don't waste an entire day on the optional components.

 

If you just skip those three lessons, it might not seem like much, but you really can accelerate CLE Math by doing that. HTH.

[Sahamamama]

Also, FWIW, I don't think that two or three errors in a CLE Math lesson is really all that terrible. There are a ton of problems in some of those lessons, and even though I consider my three girls relatively strong in math (not accelerated, but solid), they still have two or three errors from time to time. Sure, they also get 100% on many lessons, but we don't focus on that score. I often think they learn from their errors, more than they learn from the 100%. They learn to pay attention to details, such as "15 cm" instead of "15 in." :) But that is math, right? Details, details!

 

I also sit with them and offer as much support as each student seems to need for each lesson, problem, and level. We build stamina and their ability to focus and stick with the task. Step by step, we move along. HTH.

[busymama7]

My husband quit his job to build a business and we are right in the thick of that so paying a tutor isn't really feasible right now. It's why I switched her. I knew I needed to do it myself and I was hoping CLE would be a good fit. I still believe it is. I was just surprised at how long it is taking. But since that seems to be expected I will adjust my expectations.

 

I have taught two dyslexics to read (one minor, one fairly severe) and am working on the third. The older two boys are doing really well. On grade level or ahead, love to read, accomplished musician(the more severe one) and crazy science loving, engineering, tinkering all day long with the other :). People who know them, have heard them read aloud and have interacted with them on a social and/or educational level are often shocked to realize they struggled so much to read and that language stuff is still hard for them.

 

I say this because I believe I can meet this child where she is and learn what I need to do to help her if I is indeed dyscauclia. I'm still reading and learning but I met the dyslexia challenge head on and I can do this too :). I would appreciate any resources, especially cliff notes type 😂 as we are in the midst of a lot of stress and change right now.

 

We will keep working at it. We are skipping quizzes but I'm not sure about tests. I think I need that benchmark to make sure she is remembering it all. And I don't want to skip lesson 17 as those appeal to her right brained creative side. She wants the fun stuff.

 

Thank you for the advice. I really appreciate it all, even those I couldnt respond to directly.

[sewingmama]

Trust me..1 hour is good. My DD does CLE and it can take her 2-3 hours some days. She is also a level behind but it doesn't bother me. Before CLE we tried 4 other programs and my DD couldn't learn a thing from any of them. After using CLE for a year she went from not being able to do any math to getting above 90% on all her tests. Last year she did a standadised test for 3rd graders the same as the public schoolers do and even though she was only halfway through Level 2 she scored 93%. So at least here in Australia the CLE levels are advanced for the grade.

 

My DD gets math now but her processing speed is super slow and her concentration is an issue..which is why it takes her sooo long. When I work with her she stays on track better and takes much less time but it still takes up to an hour.

 

CLE is soo worth it for kids struggling with math that despite the length or being a level behind I would never give it up. My DD is still slow but she gets math now.

 

My gifted son who gets math does CLE on grade level and it takes him 30-45 mins and he usually gets 100%.. so I would say for a struggler that an hour is fine.

Edited September 1, 2016 by sewingmama

[ktgrok]

What I would do: 

 

Stick with CLE for this year, to cement those math facts. Keep doing the drills, flashcards, etc. Split the lesson up though...have her do the second half after a break. I find it a lot easier for my kid to do that. 

 

Then, next year, consider having her take the placement test for a program she could do a bit more quickly, once those facts are firmly in place. I'm thinking Teaching Textbooks. She may test a bit higher, helping catch up, and it's a bit faster than CLE. 

[Susan in TX]

Just because she is doing 4th grade CLE and she is 11 doesn't necessarily mean she is behind. Behind who? All math programs have a different scope and sequence and CLE covers some topics sooner than other curricula do. My son went from doing CLE grade 4 to 8th grade in public school. The only thing he was slightly "behind" on was fractions. And my daughter went from finishing grade 6 CLE to 9th grade Algebra. So I would just keep doing one lesson a day and not worry about being "behind".

 

Susan in TX

[RootAnn]

Some others have recommended this, but something to try if you haven't yet... set a timer. I recommend 20 minutes after she's done with the math facts/speed drill stuff. Have her work on the new material & whatever else in the lesson for 20 minutes. You correct what she's done when you get the chance  :lol: and then later (afternoon), you set the timer for 20 minutes again & she does however much of the lesson she can & fixes her mistakes from that morning. Right after the timer goes off, you check her work again, go over anything she's having trouble with (this is the time she can ask questions on things she doesn't understand or missed twice) and then she finishes the lesson/fixes mistakes. That last time (including your question & answer time) shouldn't be longer than 20 minutes. 

 

Eventually, you might find that your dd can get the lesson done during the second 20 minutes. The last part becomes just Q&A & fixing - making the lesson only 45-50 minutes total & all the errors are fixed before the next day.

 

My ones that make the least # of silly mistakes are the ones that self-check their addition/subtraction & division problems. I believe CLE teaches the casting out by 9s trick in the 400 LUs. I just don't remember which light unit.

 

(I, too, have a child doing a math book whose # is lower than her grade level. We work through the summers on math & skip the review that she doesn't need. Someday, I hope she's closer.)