Could your 2nd grader do this math problem?

[calihil]

Just curious.

 

http://www.countryliving.com/life/entertainment/a38494/viral-math-problem-for-kids/?src=socialflowFB

[SKL]

I don't have a 7yo to test right now, but I don't think it's that hard.  One of mine probably could have done it without help at 7.  The other would have recognized it as a multi-step problem and made a start, but may not have gotten the answer independently.

[HomeAgain]

I'm pretty sure my kid can, but he's pretty good at math - and has been doing these types of puzzle problems for at least a year now.  His math today stumped his 17yo brother, who spent about an hour longer on it than the 6yo did, both with the same set of instructions. (scroll to page 16, which is page 80 in the book) http://www.cimt.org.uk/projects/mepres/primary/Book2_4.pdf

[regentrude]

It's been a long time, but yes, I think they would have been able to do that.

It is more a thinking puzzle than difficult math. I think they would have realized that they only have to do 63+2, instead of doing +19 and -17.

But even 63-17+19 would be an appropriate problem for 2nd grade. Subtraction of 2 digit numbers IS taught in 2nd, isn't it? So I don't see what the whole debate is about.

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by regentrude

[EKS]

My older son would not have been able to do that in 2nd grade (actually, that's not necessarily true--he probably could have done it by the end of 2nd grade).  The younger one could have at any time during 2nd grade.

Edited August 31, 2016 by EKS

[vonfirmath]

At the end of 2nd grade? Yes

[kitten18]

My ds could have done that in second grade, he would have needed me to read it to him.

Dd in second, probably.

[maize]

It would be fairly easy if the kids had practiced similar questions.

[emmaluv+2more]

I don't think my current 3rd grader could do it unless I talked her through the steps.  She could easily do the math once she straightened out all of the steps in her mind (but that part wouldn't be obvious to her).

 

I did it easily, though, so I'm surprised at all of the adults supposedly arguing over it on social media.  I didn't think it was difficult or tricky at all.  I've definitely seen much worse.

[Heatherwith4]

Hmmm...I have one that would have at that age. I have another that probably would have had trouble, but would've figured it out with help.

[SKL]

It's been a long time, but yes, I think they would have been able to do that.

It is more a thinking puzzle than difficult math. I think they would have realized that they only have to do 63+2, instead of doing +19 and -17.

But even 63-17+19 would be an appropriate problem for 2nd grade. Subtraction of 2 digit numbers IS taught in 2nd, isn't it? So I don't see what the whole debate is about.

 

I think the most challenging part of it is knowing how to back into the beginning number from the final number.  I agree that it should be easy for an older child or an adult.  I could see some young kids being confused and doing it backwards or giving up.

 

[Janeway]

Yes

[SamanthaCarter]

no

 

[slackermom]

yes

[TX Native]

One child yes, one child no. The child that couldn't would understand the problem once the solution was explained.

[Guest]

Just curious.

 

http://www.countryliving.com/life/entertainment/a38494/viral-math-problem-for-kids/?src=socialflowFB

Yes, easily. Both my older kiddos could have figured that out in maybe a minute, max. They're both neurotypical kids, maybe on the bright side compared to the average, but not highly gifted as far as I can tell. Edited August 31, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Sk8ermaiden]

We are about to start second grade, and with a little prompting to start her thinking, she could do it. If we had ever done that type of problem before she'd have needed no help.

 

I did a very similar problem with her, using small numbers. And then I gave her the real one and she did it in a trice, mentally. 

 

And then declared, "That's the kind of math I love!"

Edited September 1, 2016 by Sk8ermaiden

[Crimson Wife]

My two typically developing children, absolutely. The one with special needs just started 2nd and she is still working on simple addition & subtraction problems like 63+2 or 19-17 using manipulatives or drawing pictures. The language demands of the word problem would be way beyond what she can do right now.

[Guest]

no.

[calihil]

My daughter is 7.5 and we just started Rod & Staff 2 math and there's no way she's even close to figuring this out.

[mamiof5]

One of ours, I'm pretty sure. Another one? Maybe. And another one? I don't think so. For us it depends on the child

[rebcoola]

1 yes 1 maybe

[fdrinca]

One, absolutely. 

 

One, if I reminded her to go step by step and modeled an easier problem. (2 get on, 3 get off, 4 on the bus...) She gets overwhelmed by the arithmetic and I've worked with her for a year to model every problem with simple numbers to see how they interact with one another, then add the larger numbers. It makes a huge difference.

[Guest]

My daughter is 7.5 and we just started Rod & Staff 2 math and there's no way she's even close to figuring this out.

Hmm...

 

Do you think maybe it's just the type of math program being used? The scope or method? We use a Singapore/conceptual style that has the kids thinking with logic and numerical principles instead of straight arithmetic crunching and this sort of thing is covered in some degree even in the kindergarten text. Not every kid might read the problem and approach it holistically, instead getting caught up in the numbers and order, but that doesn't so much mean they couldn't do it intellectually as much as they aren't used to thinking that way.

 

The logic and reasoning, as well as number skills, are age appropriate for a typical second grader. But it's definitely true that not every second grader may be taught the framework for how to approach the problem even as they have the mental ability to do it at that maturity level.

 

Clear as mud?

[SeaConquest]

Mine is just starting 2nd, and I will test him tomorrow, but I'd be shocked if he couldn't do it.

[Sk8ermaiden]

One, absolutely. 

 

One, if I reminded her to go step by step and modeled an easier problem. (2 get on, 3 get off, 4 on the bus...) She gets overwhelmed by the arithmetic and I've worked with her for a year to model every problem with simple numbers to see how they interact with one another, then add the larger numbers. It makes a huge difference.

 

This is exactly what I do when DD gets intimidated by a problem. 

[carriede]

Yes, he could.

[La Condessa]

Yes. 

 

[blondeviolin]

#1 would have needed me to prompt her to draw it out. She's easily overwhelmed.

 

#2 would've been able to do it in K at latest. (He's very mathy.)

 

#3 is just starting 2nd grade. She couldn't do it now, but, barring any weirdness, I fully expect her to do if just fine by the end of the year.

[Grover]

Is second grade 7 year olds?  My April 7 year old read it and said "there's two less than there were at the start because two more got off than got on, so it's 65." 

[frogger]

One of them would be able to figure it out. One probably wouldn't have and one would have if I would have read it for him and I'm not sure about the other one.

 

I think the debate comes simply from the fact that many adults can't figure out simple math problems and therefore they think a second grader can't.

 

It is the same thing that I see with Common Core examples that people are making fun of on the internet. I often look at the problem and see what concept the problem is getting at and can or do (depending on the problem) teach my children that way. Many adults that I am around just see it as different and they don't understand so it's stupid of course. 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I'm pretty sure both of mine could have done that at seven.

 

I'm actually pretty sure my youngest could have done it in preschool, but he was admittedly a bit . . . unusual. :lol:

[happypamama]

Maybe. My current second grader might be able to do it now, using his abacus. I think by the end of second grade, he will be able to do it, but I haven't looked to see how far MEP goes by then. My current sixth grader probably could have done it in second grade, and he also might have seen the "trick" and realized that he didn't actually need to do the full 63+19-17.

[bettyandbob]

My older two would have.

[Just Kate]

My oldest could have done that problem on his own in 2nd grade. He's great at math and loves logic questions.

 

My youngest just started 4th grade and I don't think she could do that problem on her own right now. She is not great at math (she can do the steps just fine, but has trouble fully understanding).

Edited August 31, 2016 by Just Kate

[Guest]

Yes. Those who couldnt do it mentally can use pictorial or counters. At a school, strugglers will have had extensive experience with the counters, so if they have unlimited time they certainly can solve the problem. Personally I dont agree with that approach, but I am not their parent.

[tm919]

Yes - first grader could do it, but she'd need to draw the dreaded bar diagram (dreaded by her, not us). She might be able to do it without the bar diagram by 2nd.

Edited August 31, 2016 by tm919

[Shellydon]

Yes, quickly with mental math.  He could not read the problem however, I had to read it to him  :)

[Dmmetler]

Mine could have by the end of 2a, but we also used Singapore, which really focuses on word problems and working backwards. (I say 2a because addition/subtraction is covered heavily in 2a). Possibly even by the end of 1a.

 

Having said that she also would have probably argued that at the very start of the trip, no passengers would have been on the train yet-they would have been waiting at the station gate. We had a lot of missed math problems due to adding information based on real-life experience until she finally grudgingly accepted solving the problem and writing additional comments in the margins.

Edited August 31, 2016 by dmmetler

[AmandaVT]

Yup I'm pretty sure he could have in 2nd grade. I may give him this problem today just to see what he does. :-)

[forty-two]

My new 2nd grader wasn't able to do it alone - I walked her through it and she sort of got it by the end - but I wasn't surprised, as she's still in SM 1b and hasn't ever seen problems like that before.  I expect that by the end of second grade she'd do fine.  My 5th grader, otoh, thought it was trivial and easily solved it in the time it took her to read it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Hard to remember, but I think one could have and one would have had a tough time with it.

 

 

[hjffkj]

My just started 2nd grader did it and we've never done any formal math. Just math games and talking a bunch about math.

[Tanaqui]

One kid had serious math anxiety at that age and a tendency to freeze up if too many words or numbers were thrown at her, even if the problem was trivially easy once she calmed down. (And that's why we started afterschooling before we homeschooled.)

 

Both of them, however, could've done it if they didn't panic. Well, at the end of second grade, anyway. Before that it gets fuzzier.

[teachermom2834]

My current 3rd grade dd could not. She could, however, make up a fabulous story to tell about what all the people on the train were doing and where they were going. Likely there would be costumes, props, and interpretive dance. Possibly a song. But the math problem? No way. Still mastering basic facts here.

[Arcadia]

At 7 my kids could. My oldest public school's envision math curriculum for kindergarten had word problems. Besides my kids had to take public buses and trains during office hours since they were toddlers as I can't drive. So public transport problems are easy to visualize to them.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Arcadia

[Tanaqui]

It is the same thing that I see with Common Core examples that people are making fun of on the internet. I often look at the problem and see what concept the problem is getting at and can or do (depending on the problem) teach my children that way. Many adults that I am around just see it as different and they don't understand so it's stupid of course.

 

Or they compare a teaching example of a problem with a problem done by an expert in The Standard Algorithm and conclude that, because the teaching example is wordier, it is therefore much more complex. This is, of course, cheating - they should compare two teaching examples!

 

Or the way shown IS more arduous and complex, because it's intended as training wheels before learning the standard algorithm, but the people criticizing don't understand the process and deep down think of math as a set of tricks, or a magic box - numbers go in, answers come out. So they don't grasp that the point of the methodology being used is not just to teach "the one way to do this sort of problem" but to get the students to understand WHY the standard algorithm (or any other algorithm) works so they're less likely to flub it or forget it (and if they DO forget it, they can rebuild it).

 

Or they don't understand why the teacher is taking sooooo long to teach math - after all, they're sure THEY were taught estimation in a day, and multi-digit subtraction (with borrowing) in under a week! (LOL, sure. God knows what they thought they spent the remaining 160-odd days that year doing.)

Edited August 31, 2016 by Tanaqui

[sassenach]

Yes. We used Singapore math and I'm pretty sure we had problems exactly like that at that grade.

[Mergath]

Hmm...

 

Do you think maybe it's just the type of math program being used? The scope or method? We use a Singapore/conceptual style that has the kids thinking with logic and numerical principles instead of straight arithmetic crunching and this sort of thing is covered in some degree even in the kindergarten text. Not every kid might read the problem and approach it holistically, instead getting caught up in the numbers and order, but that doesn't so much mean they couldn't do it intellectually as much as they aren't used to thinking that way.

 

The logic and reasoning, as well as number skills, are age appropriate for a typical second grader. But it's definitely true that not every second grader may be taught the framework for how to approach the problem even as they have the mental ability to do it at that maturity level.

 

Clear as mud?

 

It's interesting to me that, despite there being multiple people who said their seven-year-olds couldn't have read the problem independently, no one said that reading simple word problems is a skill that is "age appropriate for a typical second grader."

 

However, if a neurotypical second grader can't do the math, it's because the parent is teaching them wrong. Or using the wrong curriculum.

 

I wonder why some people are so much more forgiving when it comes to varying levels of reading ability, but so rigid about working at the "correct" level for math?

[SeaConquest]

Mine is just starting 2nd, and I will test him tomorrow, but I'd be shocked if he couldn't do it.

He read it and knew the answer in about 5 seconds.

Edited August 31, 2016 by SeaConquest