JA to Jacobs?

[Runningmom80]

Sorry for yet another post, can you tell I forgot to plan this summer?

 

DS has a few lessons left in Jousting Armadillos.  He originally asked to go on to the next books, C&C and Chuckles. I've read here, and even posted about the fact that these are not a "complete" algebra program. I originally thought we would just go through them anyways, and then backtrack and pick up what we've missed.

 

I'm no longer comfortable with this, because I fear I'll miss something, and while "holes" aren't the worst thing in the world, I'm adding in 2 more kids to the homeschool fold and also working more at my part time job.  Long story, short - Algebra is causing me undue stress and I'd rather just pick something complete from the get go.

 

As an aside, we are doing LoF pre-A concurrently because DS loves Fred, and I decided to indulge him.  He hasn't started it yet and I assume it won't last too long.

 

Anyways, for algebra, I'm considered the following:

 

1. Move from JA to AoPS pre A - The problem with this is I think he will hate AoPS.  He's good at math, but he doesn't like it.  He hated Beast, but we tried it 2 or 3 years ago, so maybe it was a maturity thing, but I suspect he just doesn't love math.

 

2. JA to Jacobs - he liked the sound of this one, but it's Algebra 1, would I need to do a more complete Pre-A?  Should we do all of LoF pre-A first?  Would that even help? :lol:

 

3. Foerster?  Dolciani?  I glanced at these but didn't give them much thought.

 

In conclusion, 5th grader, almost 10yo needs a more formal algebra program that's challenging but not *too* challenging, and any use of humor or "fun" instruction is a big plus.

Edited August 30, 2016 by someonestolemyname

[SierraNevada]

We did a lot of what you have done so far--so I'll comment. We did some BA. DS didn't love math because of it. He loved reading the comic part but that type of thinking made him feel bad at math. We did LOF Pre-a and most of JA to warm up for Aops. I was certain Aops was direction I wanted. I just needed to wait for some maturity. When we started Aops about 9 months ago DS was still in a mindset that he hated math. He now is doing math daily on Aops-Alcumus and doesn't want to stop. He takes the online classes through Aops. He loves the community there-other kids in the classes to talk math with. He is now doing much more math a day than I would like. He has learned tons just from being active on the forums and reading all the high school and college math forums out of curiosity. Every once in a while he still has a bad math day-where he is just struggling with a certain set of problems and I wonder if this stress is good for him. He could be going through a much gentler program. But he has grown and matured and is learning to handle it better. I always have to remind him that Aops wasn't designed to get 100% every time. They want to stretch you. You are in the wrong class if you get every problem right. But even on days like that when I ask he if he wants to switch to an easier program, he now refuses. He loves Aops and it has opened up a huge love for math. Not saying that is going to happen to every kid. But it ended up working great for us.

[Runningmom80]

We did a lot of what you have done so far--so I'll comment. We did some BA. DS didn't love math because of it. He loved reading the comic part but that type of thinking made him feel bad at math. We did LOF Pre-a and most of JA to warm up for Aops. I was certain Aops was direction I wanted. I just needed to wait for some maturity. When we started Aops about 9 months ago DS was still in a mindset that he hated math. He now is doing math daily on Aops-Alcumus and doesn't want to stop. He takes the online classes through Aops. He loves the community there-other kids in the classes to talk math with. He is now doing much more math a day than I would like. He has learned tons just from being active on the forums and reading all the high school and college math forums out of curiosity. Every once in a while he still has a bad math day-where he is just struggling with a certain set of problems and I wonder if this stress is good for him. He could be going through a much gentler program. But he has grown and matured and is learning to handle it better. I always have to remind him that Aops wasn't designed to get 100% every time. They want to stretch you. You are in the wrong class if you get every problem right. But even on days like that when I ask he if he wants to switch to an easier program, he now refuses. He loves Aops and it has opened up a huge love for math. Not saying that is going to happen to every kid. But it ended up working great for us.

Thank you for this. There is a part of me that wants to try AoPS just to see what would happen. He's good at math, he just balks at it. He's getting really into computers and I think I might be able to sell him on a "harder" program by telling him it will help him in other areas.

[shburks]

My son went from JA to Jacob's Algebra with no issues. He completed JA in half a year; we took a little break (JA didn't fit him well and he was not liking math) and finished Jacob's in a little over a year.

 

I looked extensively at AoPS but just didn't think it fit ds learning style. He really disliked the wordiness of JA and I didn't see it getting better with AoPS!

 

Maybe that helps?

[Runningmom80]

My son went from JA to Jacob's Algebra with no issues. He completed JA in half a year; we took a little break (JA didn't fit him well and he was not liking math) and finished Jacob's in a little over a year.

 

I looked extensively at AoPS but just didn't think it fit ds learning style. He really disliked the wordiness of JA and I didn't see it getting better with AoPS!

 

Maybe that helps?

It does! My DS actually liked the wordiness in JA, (he loves Fred for the same reason.)

 

I might just go crazy and buy both so I can see them myself in person.

[Chrysalis Academy]

we tried the JA-to-Jacobs thing, but JA spoiled Shannon for Jacobs! It was so much more fun and engaging, she found Jacobs rather dull.  So we did go back and do the other Arbor books after doing the first 6 chapters of Jacobs.  

 

I really like Jacobs, but I think it requires more teaching/direction than either LOF or JA.  It's written to be presented by a teacher, not to be worked through by a student on their own, I think.  So if you use it with the Dr Callahan lectures or you teach the lessons yourself, it will probably be fine, but if you have a kid who prefers to learn their math from their book, more independently, it might not work so well.  FWIW, YMMV, etc.

 

Another caveat, since I see we're on the Accelerated board - my kid is a strong math student, but not a math-lover or math genius, she'd like to get through math as efficiently as possible so she can spend her time writing.  AoPS wasn't a good fit for her for that reason as much as any other.

[Runningmom80]

we tried the JA-to-Jacobs thing, but JA spoiled Shannon for Jacobs! It was so much more fun and engaging, she found Jacobs rather dull.  So we did go back and do the other Arbor books after doing the first 6 chapters of Jacobs.  

 

I really like Jacobs, but I think it requires more teaching/direction than either LOF or JA.  It's written to be presented by a teacher, not to be worked through by a student on their own, I think.  So if you use it with the Dr Callahan lectures or you teach the lessons yourself, it will probably be fine, but if you have a kid who prefers to learn their math from their book, more independently, it might not work so well.  FWIW, YMMV, etc.

 

Another caveat, since I see we're on the Accelerated board - my kid is a strong math student, but not a math-lover or math genius, she'd like to get through math as efficiently as possible so she can spend her time writing.  AoPS wasn't a good fit for her for that reason as much as any other.

 

Mine is not a math lover or math genius either.  However he is good and intuits a lot.  He's just.... lazy.  :leaving: 

 

He's open to trying AoPS, but I do have my reservations.  Thank you for the advice on Jacobs, I had a feeling it wasn't what we are looking for, but I can't exactly figure out what it is we are looking for.

 

My husband is telling me to stop asking DS for his opinion because it's messing me up. :lol:  He claims to hate math, but when he's actually doing it, he doesn't seem to mind it. Part of the AoPS thing for me is my own curiosity.  I want to see if it's the missing piece that will help him to love math. I'm guessing it isn't, but that doesn't stop me from continuing to wonder.

[Runningmom80]

I went ahead and bought AoPS.  DS took the placement test with no problems so I'm hoping it won't be too put off by the actual curricula.

[Clemsondana]

My 10yo went from Singapore 6 to AoPS pre-algebra and then Algebra.  If your kid isn't a math lover, be prepared to take it slow in the beginning while he gets used to the different format.  It's set up so that there's an introduction (with problems) that you need to think about and then actual problems for each lesson, and once we got past the first bit we took a while and did the introduction one day and then the problems the next.  There was definitely a 'maturity curve' with this series, and although some days my son finds it frustrating, other days he loves that he's learned so many tricks and shortcuts for thinking about numbers and seeing the patterns.  The end-of-chapter reviews often take a few days.  I sometimes have to remind myself that you don't get a sticker for staying on schedule with one lesson per day - if they truly master this curriculum, they will be ahead even if they take a little longer go get through a course.  And, I have an old saxon math that I keep as a source for extra problems - when we got stuck with some exponent confusion, I pulled it out and we worked through a handful of simpler problems until he was comfortable with the concepts. 

 

[Runningmom80]

My 10yo went from Singapore 6 to AoPS pre-algebra and then Algebra.  If your kid isn't a math lover, be prepared to take it slow in the beginning while he gets used to the different format.  It's set up so that there's an introduction (with problems) that you need to think about and then actual problems for each lesson, and once we got past the first bit we took a while and did the introduction one day and then the problems the next.  There was definitely a 'maturity curve' with this series, and although some days my son finds it frustrating, other days he loves that he's learned so many tricks and shortcuts for thinking about numbers and seeing the patterns.  The end-of-chapter reviews often take a few days.  I sometimes have to remind myself that you don't get a sticker for staying on schedule with one lesson per day - if they truly master this curriculum, they will be ahead even if they take a little longer go get through a course.  And, I have an old saxon math that I keep as a source for extra problems - when we got stuck with some exponent confusion, I pulled it out and we worked through a handful of simpler problems until he was comfortable with the concepts. 

 

Thank you for the advice!  I'm definitely in no hurry.  I will keep this in mind for when the inevitable frustration hits. :)

[Janeway]

Jacob's starts with a good preAlgebra review. I would suggest starting with Jacob's algebra and if he needs more review, then find something then. I doubt he will.

[Janeway]

For the record, I have taken my children from Singapore 6 to Jacob's Algebra with no problem.

[mathwonk]

i loved jacobs's elementary algebra for the cartoons as much as the explanations.  the whole approach seemed more fun than any other book i had (or have) seen.  my son worked through about half of it in maybe 7th grade, and then won the state mathcounts contest with a perfect paper.  so he seemed to get a lot out of it.

 

to give perspective, the next year or so, he did no such independent work at all and finished much lower in the regional math contest.

Edited September 3, 2016 by mathwonk

[Runningmom80]

I just got AoPS in the mail and my first impression is that it's not going to be too hard for him, at least the first half of the book. He did most of JA last year which I'm now thinking may have been overkill for other kids but it will be good for it to seem "easy" to him at first. He loves easy. Lol

[Runningmom80]

So, I'm on the fence about continuing with AoPS pre-A. My DS isn't doing great with the first chapter. (He's on the review and missed half.)

 

He doesn't hate it, but he's definitely not enamored with it like I read about on this board.  He likes it better than JA, which is surprising to me.  He asked me to find a book in between AoPS and JA challenge-wise.  He doesn't really retain all the info with the solutions, he says it's hard to pay attention to it. I think the problem is the wordiness of AoPS.  There's a LOT on the page, and for me personally, it's visually overwhelming. I know part of *my* dislike of it is that I'm not mathy myself. My DH on the other hand, thinks it's the greatest book he's ever seen and it has rekindled his dream of being a math teacher. :lol:

 

My DS is good at math, he intuits a lot of it.  He claims to hate it but most days after he's done he admits he liked it.  He's getting really into science this year and also computers, and I've told him that math is important for those subjects.  We went from SM 4B to Jousting and I'm not wondering if we should circle back and at least do the IPs form SM to make sure he's solid on some things.

 

I guess this long ramble is my way of asking what else is out there that we should use?

[wapiti]

In between?  Maybe take a look at Russian Mathematics 6.

 

How much the amount of words matters will depend a bit on how you are using the AoPS text.  If he completes the lesson problems entirely by himself and then reads through the solutions independently, obviously the written text has a big role.  With my kids, I prefer to start out having them do lesson problems on the white board (or in a notebook) with me right there, often in the kitchen where I'll sit with them or putter around while they work on an individual problem.  Usually, any tricky stuff will come up during that time, and that's when I'd mention anything important from the solutions.  We may skim through the solutions but we really don't read through the solutions word for word.

Edited September 21, 2016 by wapiti

[SanDiegoMom]

The first two chapters were I felt more wordy than the rest. I mean, the solutions are still a lot to work thru but the first two chapters of PreA in particular focus on the mathematical definitions and my son and I did most of it verbally. With multiple authors, the book itself is not entirely consistent in its style.

 

We are finding intro to Algebra a lot more straightforward - which can be just because he is used to Aops now but I also think it's also just more even.

 

I looked at a copy of Jacobs Elementary Algebra and really liked it (I think I am going to use it for my daughter). It has four sets of problems I think - first section teaches, second and third set are very similar in style, and the fourth set see the puzzle type problems. It looks great. I have also heard about Mathematics: A Human Endeavor, which sounds like a supplementary resource with more of the non-traditional scope math topics? I think?

 

Have you used the videos too that supplement AOPS? My son loves the videos. They help provide the human element a little, and they teach the meat of section, which helps a lot with the dryness.

[Runningmom80]

In between?  Maybe take a look at Russian Mathematics 6.

 

How much the amount of words matters will depend a bit on how you are using the AoPS text.  If he completes the lesson problems entirely by himself and then reads through the solutions independently, obviously the written text has a big role.  With my kids, I prefer to start out having them do lesson problems on the white board (or in a notebook) with me right there, often in the kitchen where I'll sit with them or putter around while they work on an individual problem.  Usually, any tricky stuff will come up during that time, and that's when I'd mention anything important from the solutions.  We may skim through the solutions but we really don't read through the solutions word for word.

 

I've been operating similar, as far as I make sure I'm close by while he works on the problems.  I have been having him read through the solutions on his own, and he told me he pretty much just checks his answers and skims.  (But this I think, is a problem, because he didn't retain much!)

 

He knows how to *solve* the problems, but he's missing the *tricks* they are teaching.  I keep reminding him that if he finds him self doing a ton of long division or multiplication, he's probably not doing it the way they want to teach him.  He's still not looking at the whole problem and finding the short cut, if that makes sense. 

 

I'm thinking maybe I can try going over the solutions with him and  making sure he gets the lesson. 

 

I do have this voice in my head saying "maybe he's just not an AoPS kid."

Edited September 21, 2016 by Runningmom80

[Runningmom80]

The first two chapters were I felt more wordy than the rest. I mean, the solutions are still a lot to work thru but the first two chapters of PreA in particular focus on the mathematical definitions and my son and I did most of it verbally. With multiple authors, the book itself is not entirely consistent in its style.

 

We are finding intro to Algebra a lot more straightforward - which can be just because he is used to Aops now but I also think it's also just more even.

 

I looked at a copy of Jacobs Elementary Algebra and really liked it (I think I am going to use it for my daughter). It has four sets of problems I think - first section teaches, second and third set are very similar in style, and the fourth set see the puzzle type problems. It looks great. I have also heard about Mathematics: A Human Endeavor, which sounds like a supplementary resource with more of the non-traditional scope math topics? I think?

 

Have you used the videos too that supplement AOPS? My son loves the videos. They help provide the human element a little, and they teach the meat of section, which helps a lot with the dryness.

 

We have not watched the videos, I think I will pull up the ones from the sections he seems to be struggling with. 

[wapiti]

I would definitely try going over the solutions *with* him and making sure he got the important points out of it.  (Above when I said we skim, I meant mainly me, LOL.  Then I point stuff out, particularly stuff I know wasn't involved in my student's solving.  That's when I might hear "OOOhhhhh."  It usually only takes a few minutes.  Now that I think about it, it's probably easier for me because I've done this before; I know what's coming while they're doing the problem - and don't need to look at them much.)

 

I don't think that going over the solutions together has any bearing on who is an "aops kid."

Edited September 21, 2016 by wapiti

[Runningmom80]

I would definitely try going over the solutions *with* him and making sure he got the important points out of it.  (Above when I said we skim, I meant mainly me, LOL.  Then I point stuff out, particularly stuff I know wasn't involved in my student's solving.  That's when I might hear "OOOhhhhh."  It usually only takes a few minutes.  Now that I think about it, it's probably easier for me because I've done this before; I know what's coming while they're doing the problem - and don't need to look at them much.)

 

I don't think that going over the solutions together has any bearing on who is an "aops kid."

 

I just mean I don't know if this is the right fit for a kid who doesn't like math, or being challenged. :)

 

ETA:  I'm trying to teach him how to like both, but I don't want to go too far and cause more hatred.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Runningmom80

[Janeway]

Mine is not a math lover or math genius either.  However he is good and intuits a lot.  He's just.... lazy.  :leaving: 

 

He's open to trying AoPS, but I do have my reservations.  Thank you for the advice on Jacobs, I had a feeling it wasn't what we are looking for, but I can't exactly figure out what it is we are looking for.

 

My husband is telling me to stop asking DS for his opinion because it's messing me up. :lol:  He claims to hate math, but when he's actually doing it, he doesn't seem to mind it. Part of the AoPS thing for me is my own curiosity.  I want to see if it's the missing piece that will help him to love math. I'm guessing it isn't, but that doesn't stop me from continuing to wonder.

 

I have found Jacob's to be easily done alone by a student. For us, things were reverse. The AoPs book has the child read and then try some problems and then, right there, in the book, will tell the answers to explain how it is done, and so on.

 

I would love to try AoPs in the future, but it just will not work for my 12 yr old. He would just skip the work if it is like that. And my 15 yr old hated it. So it sits on the shelf. I am not ridding of it because I would like to see how my younger children are and if it would work with them.

 

I am unsure 100% of our choice for this year. I have Foerster's and AoPs and Jacob's on the shelf. Son picked Jacob's. He loves the little comics and stories in each lesson. So we will be doing Jacob's. It is a good solid text too. You may wish to look at samples online.

[Janeway]

Mine is not a math lover or math genius either.  However he is good and intuits a lot.  He's just.... lazy.  :leaving: 

 

He's open to trying AoPS, but I do have my reservations.  Thank you for the advice on Jacobs, I had a feeling it wasn't what we are looking for, but I can't exactly figure out what it is we are looking for.

 

My husband is telling me to stop asking DS for his opinion because it's messing me up. :lol:  He claims to hate math, but when he's actually doing it, he doesn't seem to mind it. Part of the AoPS thing for me is my own curiosity.  I want to see if it's the missing piece that will help him to love math. I'm guessing it isn't, but that doesn't stop me from continuing to wonder.

I have found that asking a child's opinion, AKA, giving too many choices, does seem to mess things up. It sets a much higher expectation for something to be perfect. And nothing will be perfect so it breeds discontent. When doing a program that a child spent time scrutinizing, the child will find himself noticing every single little thing he does not like.

[Runningmom80]

I have found that asking a child's opinion, AKA, giving too many choices, does seem to mess things up. It sets a much higher expectation for something to be perfect. And nothing will be perfect so it breeds discontent. When doing a program that a child spent time scrutinizing, the child will find himself noticing every single little thing he does not like.

 

Yeah, you're totally right on this.  He is wishy washy on top of it so it leads to me over thinking pretty much everything. Lesson learned.

[wapiti]

I just mean I don't know if this is the right fit for a kid who doesn't like math, or being challenged. :)

 

ETA:  I'm trying to teach him how to like both, but I don't want to go too far and cause more hatred.

 

I see!  Maybe the goal then is to keep it light and fun, to help him see the thrill of solving the puzzle so that he wants more (addictive in the best sense).  As the addiction to the thrill builds, you can gradually hand over the problem-solving reins.  The goal is to hear "no don't say anything, I want to do this one by myself!"

 

I would do this by working together on a white board.  Lots of smiles and excitement.  "Let's see if we can figure this one out!  hmmm where should we start?"  "now what?!  hmmm" "Mr Rusczyk wants us to look for the 'easy' way.  Any idea what it might be?"  "I know there's an easy way in here somewhere!" and ask socratic questions when needed, etc.  At least, that's what I'm trying this time around, having just started with ds10, though he's silly to begin with.  I really want to emphasize fun more than I did with my older kids and not worry about time/schedule.  This way of using the text requires much involvement on my part, more than other people might do.  But, so far I have ds thinking that chapter 1 is fun and interesting, and it's probably the most boring chapter.

[Runningmom80]

I see!  Maybe the goal then is to keep it light and fun, to help him see the thrill of solving the puzzle so that he wants more (addictive in the best sense).  As the addiction to the thrill builds, you can gradually hand over the problem-solving reins.  The goal is to hear "no don't say anything, I want to do this one by myself!"

 

I would do this by working together on a white board.  Lots of smiles and excitement.  "Let's see if we can figure this one out!  hmmm where should we start?"  "now what?!  hmmm" "Mr Rusczyk wants us to look for the 'easy' way.  Any idea what it might be?"  "I know there's an easy way in here somewhere!" and ask socratic questions when needed, etc.  At least, that's what I'm trying this time around, having just started with ds10, though he's silly to begin with.  I really want to emphasize fun more than I did with my older kids and not worry about time/schedule.  This way of using the text requires much involvement on my part, more than other people might do.  But, so far I have ds thinking that chapter 1 is fun and interesting, and it's probably the most boring chapter.

 

Love this!  Thank you! :)

[daijobu]

 With my kids, I prefer to start out having them do lesson problems on the white board (or in a notebook) with me right there, often in the kitchen where I'll sit with them or putter around while they work on an individual problem.  Usually, any tricky stuff will come up during that time, and that's when I'd mention anything important from the solutions. 

 

I'm with wapiti on this.  We sit side by side at the start of each section, and I'll be reading out loud from the text, often transcribing the math as I read.  I read out loud each problem and my dd will dictate as I write out her attempt at a solution.  Then we read the solution carefully whether she gets it right or wrong.  

 

She does the exercises and checks against the solution manual herself.  If she doesn't immediately know why she got a problem wrong, we work through the solution together.  We don't skim the solution.  We don't even merely read it.  I write out the solution on a piece of paper as dictated by the book, as I were solving it myself.  

 

We use up a lot of paper in this house.  

[Runningmom80]

I have found Jacob's to be easily done alone by a student. For us, things were reverse. The AoPs book has the child read and then try some problems and then, right there, in the book, will tell the answers to explain how it is done, and so on.

 

I would love to try AoPs in the future, but it just will not work for my 12 yr old. He would just skip the work if it is like that. And my 15 yr old hated it. So it sits on the shelf. I am not ridding of it because I would like to see how my younger children are and if it would work with them.

 

I am unsure 100% of our choice for this year. I have Foerster's and AoPs and Jacob's on the shelf. Son picked Jacob's. He loves the little comics and stories in each lesson. So we will be doing Jacob's. It is a good solid text too. You may wish to look at samples online.

 

I missed this response earlier.  I probably will just buy it to compare.  That way I can hopefully put the inner conflict to rest. I have 2 other kids who will eventually need algebra so there is a chance it will eventually get used.

[Runningmom80]

AoPS is just not working.  It takes 90 minutes everyday and he's kind of checked out most of the time.  We are going to work through The 5B IP book from SM and do LoF pre-A, possibly the next Arbor book for the rest of 2016, and start Jacobs in January.

 

ETA:  He is disliking math more with AoPS and I do not have it in me to deal with more push back.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Runningmom80