math-minded 3rd grader who doesn't like math

[bfw0729]

I have a third grader who really doesn't like math, to the point of nearly crying everyday. She used Singapore Math US Edition last year and is using it again this year. She practically cried daily last year, but I wanted to stick with SM because it's such  a solid program and she does surprisingly well in math. I have two fourth graders who are doing well with SM and I wanted to keep everyone in the same program. 

 

Anyway, I again am struggling with her and we are in our fourth week of school. I am crazy tempted to switch programs, but I really like SM. Both my husband and I did well in math and value it - we want all our kids to do well in math. Our fourth graders are doing well and even my 3 year old has shown some nice math skills. 

 

My third grader IS math-minded - she can compute math problems mentally and learned the multiplication table at just seven years old. She works on standard multi-digit addition and subtraction numbers very easily. She conceptually understands math. She just has no interest in it, like none. She loves to draw and spends about 2 hours a day (at least) drawing. She fills up notebook after notebook with all her drawings. 

 

If we decide to change programs, which math program is really solid? I don't want to give her "easy" math because she doesn't enjoy it, she's capable of challenging herself, but I don't know what to do. 

[wapiti]

Take a look at Beast Academy.

[bfw0729]

Take a look at Beast Academy.

 

 

We used BA last year as a supplement, she liked the comic books, but didn't want to spend the time working in the practice book. We do use Life of Fred on Fridays (we cover three chapters every Friday). She loves Life of Fred. There are two things that concern me. First, all three kids do LOF on Fridays with me. They all love it. We finished Books A-D last year and are almost in Farming - just a couple of chapters left in Edgewood. I like that they're together on Fridays, although it wouldn't be a big deal to separate them out. If I do LOF as the main math program, I really, truly worry that it may not be enough. Will they learn the depth that SM teaches? To be completely honest, so far I don't agree with how LOF teaches multi-digit addition. The author doesn't really explain the values of each digit, etc... We use a nice, big place value chart with SM, helping them to fully understand the value of each digit and what "carry" and "borrow" really mean. 

Edited August 30, 2016 by bfw0729

[Jackie]

Math Mammoth takes generally the same conceptual approach as Singapore, but in a somewhat more "get it done" format.

[kitten18]

Would she like BA more if it were her only program, not something she had to do in addition to other work?

[Arcadia]

She conceptually understands math. She just has no interest in it, like none. She loves to draw and spends about 2 hours a day (at least) drawing. She fills up notebook after notebook with all her drawings.

She probably loves math in her own artistic way, just not math curriculum.

Ask her to check out the links below and see if any catch her fancy

 

Fractal art

http://www.ams.org/mathimagery/thumbnails.php?album=13

 

Using art to teach math

http://www.maths2art.co.uk/index.htm

 

ViHart doodle in math class videos

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF7CBA45AEBAD18B8

 

ETA:

My doodler's workbooks are filled with drawings and it did not hurt his math understanding or grades. Maybe ditch SM textbook and workbook and just use SM CWP or BA practice book.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Arcadia

[bfw0729]

I would love more ideas, thanks.

[carriede]

I have no experience, just some thoughts.

 

Have her write her work in a notebook with different colors and different orientations on the paper (turning the notebook upside for example).

 

Doing work on a marker board. Doing work on pretty stationary or graph paper.

 

I had a good friend who was artsy and very visually oriented. To study, she would do as I suggested, writing facts down in random places on a page in a myriad of colors. She said that when taking tests, she could picture her notes in her head and "read" what she had written.

[wapiti]

A few more random thoughts:

 

Are you just using the SM textbook and workbook?  How about CWP or IP - have you tried either of those, or parts of them, and what happens?

 

How is her SM placement - could she benefit from some compacting/acceleration?  Could the pace be slower (or faster) than what she needs?

 

Try having her do work on a white board with colored dry erase markers.  And then let her draw on it afterward.

 

As for BA, it may be worth trying the Practice books again.  They didn't fly around here with a first or second grader but a third grader might be more receptive.

[fralala]

I just have a few suggestions for what worked with my own artistic daughter when she was complaining about math. They may not work for you-- it took me thinking about what motivates this kid.

 

First off, I just had to change my attitude and approach. I cut way down on the amount I was expecting her to do each day in a workbook (although I have since slowly built back up, mwahaha), and I would take the time before her lesson to doodle little cartoons in the margins and designs and positive statements, also some ridiculous ones). Oh, I am suddenly remembering that before I did that, I went through a somewhat time-consuming (but rewarding) period of making homemade pen-and-ink worksheets with some of her favorite things and designs on them surrounding the problems. I think maybe she just felt sorry for me for going to such effort and being such a miserable artist, but she didn't have the heart to complain about doing those.

 

She really covers her own workbook pages with doodles and little messages to me now, and that's okay with me even though I could point out that this means she's actually spending double the time on math that she would otherwise.

 

For her, it was also a matter of going back and spending a lot of time making facts automatic-- she is the kind of kid who likes things if she feels they come somewhat easily to her and likes feeling "good" at things. This may not be your daughter.

 

I've also found that she loves playing math games, so I always include one math game in our morning basket. Does your daughter enjoy doing math with your preschooler at all? I am doing MEP Reception with my preschooler and it is always so much fun my second grader wants to come and join in...it reminds me that I should be working as hard to make math fun and playful with everyone (even on mornings like today when someone knocks over my coffee during the first lesson, grrr).

 

Hope you'll be able to get rid of the tears soon. I love and use Singapore Math too and would be reluctant to give it up.

[....]

I'm not using a math curriculum with my 8 year-old (who is also very good at math).  We're doing living math books, working together on the dry erase board, playing math games, working on flashcards, etc.  I have several Miquon workbooks and she was working through those, but we're not really using those anymore.  Something must be working, because she begs to do math every day.  She's been creating her own math dice games.    

 

Is math without a curriculum a possibility?  There are tons of living math ideas online.  Have you seen this website?  http://www.livingmath.net  Is Education Unboxed still out there?  That was a great website.

 

Our library has an entire section of math readers/living math books. 

 

I'm to the point where I'm not going to buy math curricula anymore until the kids are about 6th grade.

 

About not liking the way a curriculum teaches a concept - you can always show them different ways to solve problems without changing curriculum.  My son is using Saxon and when we're going over new material, I use the Singapore way to explain a lot of stuff.  I generally try to explain concepts in 2-3 different ways.  It helped that I worked through the AOPS Prealgebra book a few years ago (and learned a lot - Lol).

[Arcadia]

Some doodle out of boredom and some because they need to move and doodling is what is allowed in a classroom setting. A friend (ex-schoolmate) doodled Charlie Brown and Linus all over his calculus lecture notes in 11th grade, was my student council treasurer and is an accountant since college graduation.

 

So I would see if she is bored.

 

She really covers her own workbook pages with doodles and little messages to me now, and that's okay with me even though I could point out that this means she's actually spending double the time on math that she would otherwise.

When I needed to submit work samples for a program application, no one minded that his work samples contains many drawings of tessellation that are totally irrelevant to the work samples. There was one or two that he drew short comic strips. Besides the doodled workbooks make good keepsakes.

[letsplaymath]

I have a third grader who really doesn't like math, to the point of nearly crying everyday. She used Singapore Math US Edition last year and is using it again this year. She practically cried daily last year, but I wanted to stick with SM because it's such  a solid program and she does surprisingly well in math. 

....

My third grader IS math-minded - she can compute math problems mentally and learned the multiplication table at just seven years old. She works on standard multi-digit addition and subtraction numbers very easily. She conceptually understands math. She just has no interest in it, like none. She loves to draw and spends about 2 hours a day (at least) drawing. She fills up notebook after notebook with all her drawings. 

 

If we decide to change programs, which math program is really solid? I don't want to give her "easy" math because she doesn't enjoy it, she's capable of challenging herself, but I don't know what to do. 

 

Your daughter sounds a lot like mine, except my dd is a writer, not an artist. Understands math, is good at it, but has very little interest in school math work. Plenty of tears, often due to perfectionist angst --- not wanting to do something new if she couldn't do it perfectly.

 

We did a variety of things when she was younger, including Singapore Math. Never the same curriculum for very long, though, and often broken up with stretches where number games were our only formal math practice while we wandered around in recreational math topics. (Many of those games are available [free] on my blog.)

 

When we used Singapore Math (and later Math Mammoth), we always worked in several chapters at once. She could never handle very much of straight calculation practice at once, and Primary Math always started the school year with lots of that. So we did Buddy Math through a little bit of arithmetic each day, then skipped to a more interesting topic to round out our math time. I loved doing Buddy Math with her, because her mind works so differently from mine. It was fascinating to hear how she approached problems.

 

I didn't try to stay on "grade level", so she was advanced on some topics (algebra in first grade) and behind on others. We weren't trying to rush to calculus (though we did some of Don Cohen's activities), just to build a solid foundation of understanding and to play with interesting ideas along the way.

 

Some of the things she liked: Eric Zaccaro books, Penrose the Math Cat (or anything with cats), Danica McKellar books (though she was never a girly-girl), logic puzzles of all sorts, Competition Math for Middle School (just for the puzzles, NOT actual competitions), getting together with friends for math club activities, James Tanton's G'Day Math courses...

 

Now she's a senior in high school, doing well in her college algebra (dual credit) class, still building on that solid framework of understanding. She won't get all the way to calculus before she graduates, but the tears are (mostly) in the past --- and she just published her third novel. I'll count that as a homeschooling success. :)

 

So I guess my recommendation would be not to fear the tears, but recognize that the textbook is pushing her into a place of emotional stress. Back off a bit --- either skipping completely away from the text for awhile, or just doing smaller chunks at a time --- and add some variety for balance. Don't avoid difficult math, because mastering a challenge is satisfying. Explore some of the wonderful resources online when she needs a break from textbook work.

Edited September 2, 2016 by letsplaymath

[LEK]

I have had similar problems with both my older girls. Both are very mathematically minded.

 

The problem here basically boils down to they are bored, tear inducing bored, however while their mathematical skills are mostly intuitive I feel very strongly that they need to learn the standard conventions and methods and also, some aspects of mathematics is just not picked up through intuition and daily life so they had gaps in their knowledge. For this reason we have been working through our chosen program (at an accelerated speed) to fill in any gaps and teach the more standard conventions. They do not like it and are bored stiff half the time but it has helped them a lot and I feel it will really be beneficial further down the track. One thing that really helps enormously was to let my elder DD do her pages orally where that was appropriate, she can do a page orally in a minute or 2 but due to complaining, snacks, sharpening pencils, drawing and just general distractions that same page easily takes 20+ minutes if I require the answers to be written.

 

The current "plan" is to finish going through all primary mathematics and then move into AOPS, my DD9 is also using BA as a supplement and she will be starting AOPS prealgebra sometime in the next few months (will definitely be starting it well before her 10th birthday), hopefully this will appeal more to her. She loves playing with numbers and doing "complicated" mathematics, it is the daily lessons that she hates, and I really don't blame her, primary mathematics really is tear inducing boring.

 

Not sure if that helps but that sums up the situation here. My plan up to this stage really has been just to get them through learning the conventional way of doing things relatively fast so that they can move onto the more challenging and fun stuff that they really want to do, once they have learned the conventional way I really do not care how they work out a problem (their own way or the standard) but in the future knowing that convention will help with algebra and up.

 

[Incognito]

Beast Academy

Zaccoro

LoF (with drill book like Rod and Staff)

 

[sweetpea3829]

So it isn't that she can't DO the math...she just doesn't like the subject?  

 

Personally, I wouldn't switch for that reason.  It doesn't sound like it's Singapore...it sounds like she just doesn't enjoy math, and regardless of what you use, she's not going to want to do it.  I'm not aware of any math curricula out there that makes math super fun, aside from Beast Academy...and "fun" is a matter of opinion.  

 

LoF is "fun" but I personally do not see it as a complete curriculum. At least not in the earlier levels.  

 

You might try Prodigy Math.  It isn't a curriculum, but it would serve well as a review/practice for concepts she's learned in Singapore or Beast.  Because it's a game, most kids (but not all, of course) are highly motivated to play it, despite the large amount of math it requires from players.  

 

So how it works is....the player has a wizard character, which travels around a world, completing quests, etc.  On the way, he/she encounters "bad guys" or whatever you want to call them and engages in battles.  To cast battle attacks, the player has to answer math questions.  

 

You can either let the game use it's algorithm to evaluate your student's progress and adjust content as necessary. Or YOU can go into the teacher dashboard and set specific assignments for your student to see.  Your assignments take priority over the game's assignments, but once your assignments are completed, the game will populate it's own questions.  

 

I use it for spiral review of concepts...I go in every week and set new assignments, look over their previous assignments, etc.  

 

 

It's free, btw, but there is a paid membership option that gives the player more in-game options (but doesn't impact the academic side).  You can get a group buy membership for $12/year, but you've gotta look around.  

 

[mathnerd]

the player has a wizard character, which travels around a world, completing quests, etc.  On the way, he/she encounters "bad guys" or whatever you want to call them and engages in battles.  To cast battle attacks, the player has to answer math questions.  

 

Not to derail this thread - but, could you please let me know how far a child can advance on Prodigy? Does it cover higher grade material? Thanks.

[sweetpea3829]

Not to derail this thread - but, could you please let me know how far a child can advance on Prodigy? Does it cover higher grade material? Thanks.

 

 

Grades 1-8.  I'm part of a focus group with them and there's been some chatter about them developing higher level content.  But the reality is...there probably aren't many high school students interested in a wizards RPG.  

 

If you go to their website, you can take a look at all of their curriculum content.  They have four different curriculum options, one from Ontario (which is where they are based), Common Core, MAFS, and TEKS.  You have to choose one of the four as your main curriculum, but when you are assigning tasks, you can choose from any of the four.  

[mathnerd]

Grades 1-8.  I'm part of a focus group with them and there's been some chatter about them developing higher level content.  But the reality is...there probably aren't many high school students interested in a wizards RPG.  

 

If you go to their website, you can take a look at all of their curriculum content.  They have four different curriculum options, one from Ontario (which is where they are based), Common Core, MAFS, and TEKS.  You have to choose one of the four as your main curriculum, but when you are assigning tasks, you can choose from any of the four.  

Thanks for the tips. I will check the curriculum out.

[MerryAtHope]

If she's crying daily, something does need to change. But in order to know what needs to change, I think you need to understand what it is that she doesn't like about the program. I'd talk with her over a snack sometimes (not in the middle of being upset about math--more of a "non-conflict" time), and ask some questions. Does she like anything about math? What does she dislike about it? Is it too much writing? Are the pictures confusing to her--would she rather work with manipulatives? Does she find pictures distracting and would like a less-cluttered page? Does she hate black and white pictures and wish the workbooks had color? Does she hate doing math alone but would enjoy it if she could snuggle with you on the couch?

 

And so on. Try to figure out what her learning style with math is like. It may take showing her some samples of different styles to see what she thinks--and it may take more than one conversation. 

 

Other considerations--it's possible that while she's able to do the math, she's working mostly at the edge of her ability level--meaning that it's too much challenge and that frustrates her. (Imagine reading where you have to work to decode every single word. Even if you are physically capable of reading the material, comprehension in that situation would be really difficult). If that's the case, stepping back to something slightly easier would put her more in the middle of her ability level and might be a better fit. Harder isn't always better. 

 

I think once you have a handle on why math is upsetting enough to her that she cries daily, you may be able to decide whether switching programs is needed, or whether changing up your approach would solve the issue. 

[stutterfish]

"Both my husband and I did well in math and value it - we want all our kids to do well in math. Our fourth graders are doing well and even my 3 year old has shown some nice math skills."

 

I might be on the wrong track, but looking at the above, maybe that's exactly why she doesn't like maths? Perhaps she knows how highly you and your dh value it, how important it is to you, and that you have high expectations regarding maths that she should meet. I'd imagine most sensitive kids would sense that pressure around the subject, in a household where even the maths skills of a 3 year old are noted and valued. All us parents fall for it in some way, we have our favourite subjects or skill-set that we value, perhaps something we are good at, and we so want our kids to love them, too.

 

Personally, from what you've said, I'd cut down on the maths, use a basic get-it-done approach for her and focus on the things she does love doing. Maybe if she thinks you value those things as much as maths, she'll come back to using her 'maths brain'. :)

 

[Edited to add...A third grader crying practically every day over a subject isn't normal and isn't ok. It's a major signal that something needs to be changed. right. now. If we were talking about a school child, who cried every day when she was sent to school, for a whole year, no parent would keep sending them.]

Edited August 31, 2016 by stutterfish

[jgrabuskie]

I like Saxon, my ds8 tested into 5/4. We are math oriented too and math picky. But before you change your math program, determine why do is in tears. Do you see her as a left brain or a right brain learner. Left brain you will go more with a program of mastery and repetition. If a right Brainerd more of a conceptual math program.

 

I purchased math mammoth last year for DS, but the overwhelming amount of work with very little instruction had me scrambling to put things together. A lot of this was bc DS was coming out of PS the prior year. But I would suggest you go to the website and try her freebies. Saxon has a placement test free online, test her and see where she fall. If Google it you can creatively find the 5/4, 6/5 and 7/6 text books to download and try out. Last year I officially used Go Math a conceptual spiral math program on CC. I used it bc a university's Tyler prep school uses it and I thought we might send DS there. I am an accountant, math is not a problem. I have 2 math teachers on call. I HATE the CC conceptual math program. Does a 7 year old need to learn 6 ways to add before rationality and logic is developed in their brains? Good luck!

 

 

Sent from my SM-T377V using Tapatalk

[sarahli]

My son has a tough time when math is tedious. Teaching Textbooks has been a really good fit for us. I like it so much that I'm doing the Algebra program myself as a review. There are placement tests on the website and the program resells easily too.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[SparklyUnicorn]

I have one like this.  It's weird.  He does well, but he hates it.  I have tried BA, MM, SM, and a variety of other things.  None of it has made him like math more.  So at this point I sit down with him and go over the concept(s) and have him practice the concepts on a white board.  We play math games. I keep lessons very short.  It makes it tolerable to him.

 

 

 

 

[SilverMoon]

I have one of those too, though mine isn't really artsy. Last year I let her switch from the line she'd been quite successfully using, that her mathy siblings above her successfully using. She was using Horizons a grade ahead. I put her in Math in Focus (one grade ahead), which has a totally different approach. Math time was happy again. For awhile. Then the tears came back. I put her back in the Horizons book, and suddenly the book that was previously boring and dumb was a breath of fresh air and she loved it. For while. Then the tears came back. Horizons was the bad guy and Math in Focus was wonderful again. Lather, rinse, repeat. So I just kept both out and let her bounce back and forth all year. She'd skip swaths in one when she came back to it. Her math skills were wicked strong by the end of the year and the drama was greatly reduced. Win-win. Obviously I worked on the bad attitude on the side. FWIW, this attitude shows up in plenty of areas she's good at and I believe genuinely enjoys.

 

Math in Focus is pretty similar to Singapore, but it breaks the concepts down into smaller steps. DD/3rd complained mercilessly about all those extra steps and I frequently let her skip writing them all out. So this year I took a gamble on putting Singapore next to her Horizons instead, with the expectation of going back and forth as needed. If you're not familiar with it, Horizons is a colorful spiral workbook program. So far so good, but unless Singapore is simply a bad fit for her I'm not likely to let her change it. :tongue_smilie:

 

Another FWIW, mine detested Beast Academy. She didn't mind the comic book, but her reaction to working through it as a primary course was the strongest I've ever seen from her. She adamantly refuses to ever pick one up again.

[mathmarm]

I wonder if she might like Miquon because of the labs and lab sheets and cRods. The method might seem a little "foreign"--its common to see parents and teachers say :huh: when they first see the materials but I've been studying the Lab Sheet Annotations and it's very, very, very intriguing and mathematically sound.

 

You could have a brief lesson and then she could do the work on her own and it's got a large tactile/hands on part too it. There are some activities and topics in the book that might be quite fun for an older child such as sections such as O-Z, Miquon is exploratory and hands on. There are some very nice open-ended questions and then there is some plain exercises too, though how much you supplement for drill/practice will depend on your families needs.

[shinyhappypeople]

I have a third grader who really doesn't like math, to the point of nearly crying everyday. She used Singapore Math US Edition last year and is using it again this year. She practically cried daily last year, but I wanted to stick with SM because it's such  a solid program and she does surprisingly well in math. I have two fourth graders who are doing well with SM and I wanted to keep everyone in the same program. 

 

Anyway, I again am struggling with her and we are in our fourth week of school. I am crazy tempted to switch programs, but I really like SM. Both my husband and I did well in math and value it - we want all our kids to do well in math. Our fourth graders are doing well and even my 3 year old has shown some nice math skills. 

 

My third grader IS math-minded - she can compute math problems mentally and learned the multiplication table at just seven years old. She works on standard multi-digit addition and subtraction numbers very easily. She conceptually understands math. She just has no interest in it, like none. She loves to draw and spends about 2 hours a day (at least) drawing. She fills up notebook after notebook with all her drawings. 

 

If we decide to change programs, which math program is really solid? I don't want to give her "easy" math because she doesn't enjoy it, she's capable of challenging herself, but I don't know what to do. 

 

If she's crying daily, Singapore isn't worth it regardless of how solid the program is (and it's definitely a good program) or how much you love it.  I've had to say goodbye to programs I've *loved* for this reason, and it stinks, so you have my sympathy!  

 

I just read an article in which the author differentiates between arithmetic and math, with arithmetic being the computations, math facts, etc. and math being more "algebraic thinking" and putting the arithmetic to work in complex and creative ways.  

 

Perhaps you can try differentiating them as well.  It sounds like arithmetic is a strength of hers, so you could teach the arithmetic and mental math skills as efficiently as possible 4 days a week and then save "math" (the creative part) for a weekly math lab or something.

 

By the way, both of my daughters are highly creative, artistic people and both strongly prefer math programs that are efficient, traditional, and to the point.  They just want to get it done and get on with life.  

[Tiramisu]

A few more random thoughts:

 

Are you just using the SM textbook and workbook? How about CWP or IP - have you tried either of those, or parts of them, and what happens?

 

How is her SM placement - could she benefit from some compacting/acceleration? Could the pace be slower (or faster) than what she needs?

 

Try having her do work on a white board with colored dry erase markers. And then let her draw on it afterward.

 

As for BA, it may be worth trying the Practice books again. They didn't fly around here with a first or second grader but a third grader might be more receptive.

I'm trying out IP for the first time this year and it does seem more enjoyable for my DD who doesn't like work in general but who is math-minded.