S/O Obedience: If you value obedience in children, what are examples of disobedience?

[38carrots]

The title says it all. What are example of disobedience? How does disobedience come out? I'm pretty laid back, I don't focus on "obedience." I think that's pretty much everything I ask my kids to do or not to do is generally taken well and I can rely on them doing what asked.

 

But maybe I'm too laid back lol.

 

I've been thinking... So for example, I asked DS to finish his computer time in 30 min and 40 min later he is still on the computer. So is this considered "disobedience"?

[Zinnia]

I would not consider that disobedience. But if I gave a 20 minute warning with an explanation (hey, get off for we need to leave the house for x reason), then a 10 minute, 5, one minute, and when I said, "time is up," it was met with, "but why? I am not done! This isn't fair! You can't make me!"

 

Then, yes, disobedient.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Zinnia

[38carrots]

I would not consider that disobedience. But if I gave a 20 minute warning with an explanation (hey, get off for we need to leave the house for x reason), then a 10 minute, 5, one minute, and when I said, "time is up," it was met with, "but why? I am not done! This isn't fair! You can't make me!"

 

Then, yes, disobedient.

 

 

So are such reactions common???

I have kids ages 14, 11 and 8. I haven't encountered attitudes like this (so far? lol).

[Zinnia]

My 10 year old stopped acting like this about every.single.request.i.ever.made about a year ago. My 8 year old does this enough for it to be annoying, but probably only about 15% of the time.. My 6 and 4 have never acted like this. Never. They are shockingly compliant 95% of the time.

[38carrots]

I wonder if a lot of this is personality. I'd probably be really shocked if my kids told me "This isn't fair" or "Can't make me!" ha-ha I hardly ever "make" them  do anything, so that's not a vocabulary that they'd use.

[Ellie]

The title says it all. What are example of disobedience? How does disobedience come out? I'm pretty laid back, I don't focus on "obedience." I think that's pretty much everything I ask my kids to do or not to do is generally taken well and I can rely on them doing what asked.

 

But maybe I'm too laid back lol.

 

I've been thinking... So for example, I asked DS to finish his computer time in 30 min and 40 min later he is still on the computer. So is this considered "disobedience"?

 

Well, yes, it would be disobedience. Did you give him a five-minute warning? Because it's easy to lose track of time; we want to help our children obey, rather than catch them at being disobedience, so a warning would have been a good thing. And then at 31 minutes, you walk over to the computer and turn it off, because (1) children should know they can trust us to do what we say; (2) when we tell our children to do/not do something, there should be a consequence for not obeying--not necessarily a big deal, but something; and (3) if we don't follow through, we end up nagging and feeling frustrated (and our children are unhappy, too).

[38carrots]

Well, yes, it would be disobedience. Did you give him a five-minute warning? Because it's easy to lose track of time; we want to help our children obey, rather than catch them at being disobedience, so a warning would have been a good thing. And then at 31 minutes, you walk over to the computer and turn it off, because (1) children should know they can trust us to do what we say; (2) when we tell our children to do/not do something, there should be a consequence for not obeying--not necessarily a big deal, but something; and (3) if we don't follow through, we end up nagging and feeling frustrated (and our children are unhappy, too).

 

If I give a 30 min warning because we have to leave the house, then I make sure I give reminders, and it hasn't happened that the child wasn't done when asked to be done and never exhibited any "attitude." (Wow, as I'm thinking back--trully, never. That's pretty neat, actually. They are not always happy to interrupt what they are doing to go to a potentially boring place, but it is just "I wish I didn't have to go.")

 

If I give a 30 min warning because the child needs to fit in a piano practice that day, I don't really care if it is 30 min or 40 min (if there are no time limitations) and I don't worry about 10 min less or 10 minutes more. I wouldn't dream of turning off his computer at 31 minutes--not respectful. If I lost track of time and someone turned my computer off I wouldn't be talking to that person ever again ha-ha. But I wouldn't mind a gentle poke.

 

And yet when we have either firm time limits or I need them to help around the house, or go somewhere or leave somewhere, or do something or not do something, etc, I'm listened to with no complaints. They are almost too "obedient."

[Meriwether]

A fairly recent incident at my house. The neighborhood kids get together most days, but they are to play outside not inside. All three families with little ones have this rule for their kids although none of us mind other kids coming into our houses. Dd6 confessed to going into one of the neighbors' houses one afternoon. It was disobedient of her to go in the house. At that time she was reminded of the rule and warned. There was a similar issue a few weeks later. She is now restricted to our yard until further notice. This isn't so much a punishment as a way to emphasize following the rules. The neighbors prefer to play in our yard anyhow and someone (usually a gang of 4 or 5 kids) comes knocking every day, so she hasn't missed playing with the neighbors at all.

[poppy]

So are such reactions common???

I have kids ages 14, 11 and 8. I haven't encountered attitudes like this (so far? lol).

Your kids have never pushed back and whined when you ask them to do something you don't want them to do?

 

Wow.

I know a family like that. 3 boys, not the worlds most strict parents but they always always comply calmly, and listen to logic. They are a delightful family. And I am jealous of them often!

 

I do not think it is common, though. Kids who don't push boundaries or who stay rock steady even when tired or hungry . It's not a bad thing but it's not typical.

 

Unless the parents follow authoritarian parenting methods of course. You can train any child to be obedient through fear.

Edited August 30, 2016 by poppy

[marbel]

 I didn't read much of the other thread.   But, to answer the question -

 

If I tell a child to be off the computer in x minutes, and I give a warning, and the child has a way to tell how much time has gone by, but they still are on the computer when x minutes are up, yes, that is disobedience.  It doesn't even matter the reason - whether we have to go somewhere or not, whether I need to use the computer, etc.  That is disobedience and should have consequences.  I would not do exactly as Ellie would - just turn off the computer - but there would be consequences.

 

Here is another: my daughter clutters the bathroom counter with makeup and stuff.  She shares that bathroom with her brother and it is also the guest bathroom.  I want the clutter straightened up daily.  She doesn't always do it.  That is disobedience.  The consequence is that I put her stuff in a bag and put it on her bed.  That's not much of a consequence - she does not lose the use of the stuff - but it's an inconvenience to her, just as her leaving the counter cluttered is an inconvenience to me (as I don't want to have to worry about that bathroom being ready for use by a random person).

 

(We don't get random visitors very often, like almost never, but... if my neighbor stops by and needs to use the bathroom, I want her to be able to find the soap among the other stuff  Plus, nothing wrong with a neat bathroom in general.)

Edited August 30, 2016 by marbel

[HomeAgain]

So are such reactions common???

I have kids ages 14, 11 and 8. I haven't encountered attitudes like this (so far? lol).

For my youngest, yes, very common.  He's 6.5 and the amount of pushback when he's interrupted is amazing.  Same for fits over not understanding or being able to do something he wants to do.

 

I wonder if a lot of this is personality. I'd probably be really shocked if my kids told me "This isn't fair" or "Can't make me!" ha-ha I hardly ever "make" them  do anything, so that's not a vocabulary that they'd use.

Yes, yes it is.  My oldest is very laidback, happy go lucky.  His first word was "yeah" and he didn't bother saying "no" for a full year after that.  He just is calm, patient, and relaxed.  The child has a cool head on his shoulders.  The youngest is intense.  That's the only way to put it.  He wakes up trying to take the world by storm.  We're also finding out that the intensity pushes him - academically, in sports, and most other areas of his life.

 

Both children have personalities that could either work for or against them.  They just have to learn how to make it work.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Besides the toddler (who I don't consider disobedient, but rather "in training") I have one kid who is regularly disobedient.  Some examples, 

 

(Expectations for behavior are VERY clearly explained ahead of time)

 

Me: "Please come to the table for math"

Kid: "Just a minute" (and continues playing with her toys)  (This is not allowed.  "Just a minute" to go potty is a perfectly acceptable response, but otherwise, I expect promptness)

 

Me: It's time to go in and clean up for dinner.  

Kid: *whine* "But I can stay outside while you go in But why can't we stay just ten minutes longer But what if you called from the window when you were really ready for dinner But why do we need to clean up But..."

Kid has managed to control herself so that if I say, "We are not arguing about this" she can stop herself from continuing.  But I can't seem to stop that initial stream of argument.  It drives me nuts.  

 

Luckily, I do not have particularly disobedient kids.  My kids don't throw things or break things or direct defy in any sort of obnoxious way.  

[Scarlett]

If I give a 30 min warning because we have to leave the house, then I make sure I give reminders, and it hasn't happened that the child wasn't done when asked to be done and never exhibited any "attitude." (Wow, as I'm thinking back--trully, never. That's pretty neat, actually. They are not always happy to interrupt what they are doing to go to a potentially boring place, but it is just "I wish I didn't have to go.")

 

If I give a 30 min warning because the child needs to fit in a piano practice that day, I don't really care if it is 30 min or 40 min (if there are no time limitations) and I don't worry about 10 min less or 10 minutes more. I wouldn't dream of turning off his computer at 31 minutes--not respectful. If I lost track of time and someone turned my computer off I wouldn't be talking to that person ever again ha-ha. But I wouldn't mind a gentle poke.

 

And yet when we have either firm time limits or I need them to help around the house, or go somewhere or leave somewhere, or do something or not do something, etc, I'm listened to with no complaints. They are almost too "obedient."

The gentle poke was the 5 minute warning.

[Guest]

Examples of disobedience:

Not complying with dress code or house rules

Not out of bed/in bed at designated time

Chores not up to standard or done by designated time, even though no training or clock is provided

Not controlling emotions

Not complying with order within 30 seconds of receipt

[rocassie]

It is really easy to loose track of time on the computer especially when playing something in which the computer clock is not visible.  I would give a 5 min warning, but they always wanted to do one more thing which of course led into one more thing.  If after telling them their time was up and they didn't get off the computer (I allowed for time to save and log off), they did not get to play the next day.  If they happened to go over without my noticing, I didn't penalize them unless I was sure they knowingly continued to play.  i.e. A sibling is saying, "your turn was done at 1:30, it's 1:45 and I want my turn." Yet they continue to play.

 

To solve this problem of the computer because it started to feel like a battle, I had my DH (who is a computer guy) write a script to flash a 3 min warning and then automatically log them off when their time was up.  This has been wonderful.  The 3 min interruption of the game really gets their attention better than me or anyone saying something.  There's no point arguing with the computer. 

[skimomma]

Not controlling emotions

 

 

I have to ask.  How does one control emotions?  Are they not involuntary?

[Guest]

Oh I have an example... From the assessment of risk thread.

 

I was sitting in a parking lot waiting fit pizza in the car with all three kids buckled in the back seat in their boosters or car seat, respectively.

 

 

It is ALWAYS the rule that they may not be rambunctious in the car. It's clearly -CLEARLY I SAY!- unsafe. This has been explained so so so many times.

 

likewise, since the baby was born it has been the rule that you can't make him laugh. Like on purpose, in the car, because when he laughs a lot, he throws up. But of course he is strapped down in a reclining position...so it's both gross and dangerous for him. This has been explained a tonne...but more to the point, DEMONSTRATED at least a dozen times.

 

Well, that day one of the kids was going buck wild in the back. I reminded him of both of the above rules. Several times. I reminded him of the reasoning for both rules.

 

He kept scream-laughing, throwing his head around to amuse the baby. He hit his face on the baby's seat and has a chipped tooth to show for it.

 

I very very much wish he had just obeyed me, even though he thought what he was doing read perfectly fine. He was perfectly wrong.

[38carrots]

Your kids have never pushed back and whined when you ask them to do something you don't want them to do?

 

Wow.

I know a family like that. 3 boys, not the worlds most strict parents but they always always comply calmly, and listen to logic. They are a delightful family. And I am jealous of them often!

 

I do not think it is common, though. Kids who don't push boundaries or who stay rock steady even when tired or hungry . It's not a bad thing but it's not typical.

 

Unless the parents follow authoritarian parenting methods of course. You can train any child to be obedient through fear.

 

I keep going in circles about this. Maybe I still can't define disobedience in a proper / common way. I really do struggle with this concept, because I don't view my kids as obedient OR disobedient.

 

I wouldn't consider a kid who is tired or hungry to be disobedient if they were upset over something, so this wouldn't be boundary pushing. Boundary pushing would be if I asked them to sit at the table in a diner while I went to the bathroom and I came back and they were running around. Or when I asked them to sit at the table, and they told me they wouldn't. But if I came back and one of them is standing by the widow near their table, while I asked them to "sit"-- this wouldn't even cross my radar, because what I really meant was "don't be a nuissance", not "glue your butts to the chair."  Or if I asked them to sit at the table and they said, "But can we stand by the window?" I don't consider this boundary pushing either, because I didn't give them an order to obey, I gave them a suggestion of behaviour.

 

My youngest asks lots of questions and I guess might be considered boundary pushing by some? She likes to have "extra time" at bedtime and asks for it. Most of the time I give her the extra time, but that's because we don't have very strict bedtimes, so this doesn't bother me.

[38carrots]

 I didn't read much of the other thread.   But, to answer the question -

 

If I tell a child to be off the computer in x minutes, and I give a warning, and the child has a way to tell how much time has gone by, but they still are on the computer when x minutes are up, yes, that is disobedience.  It doesn't even matter the reason - whether we have to go somewhere or not, whether I need to use the computer, etc.  That is disobedience and should have consequences.  I would not do exactly as Ellie would - just turn off the computer - but there would be consequences.

 

Here is another: my daughter clutters the bathroom counter with makeup and stuff.  She shares that bathroom with her brother and it is also the guest bathroom.  I want the clutter straightened up daily.  She doesn't always do it.  That is disobedience.  The consequence is that I put her stuff in a bag and put it on her bed.  That's not much of a consequence - she does not lose the use of the stuff - but it's an inconvenience to her, just as her leaving the counter cluttered is an inconvenience to me (as I don't want to have to worry about that bathroom being ready for use by a random person).

 

(We don't get random visitors very often, like almost never, but... if my neighbor stops by and needs to use the bathroom, I want her to be able to find the soap among the other stuff  Plus, nothing wrong with a neat bathroom in general.)

 

So the second example would happen here as well, but I don't call this disobedience. Maybe laziness? Or being self-absorbed? lol I'd do the same thing myself. I guess I thought "disobedience" would be a more willfull and determined stance on something.

 

[Ellie]

If I give a 30 min warning because we have to leave the house, then I make sure I give reminders, and it hasn't happened that the child wasn't done when asked to be done and never exhibited any "attitude." (Wow, as I'm thinking back--trully, never. That's pretty neat, actually. They are not always happy to interrupt what they are doing to go to a potentially boring place, but it is just "I wish I didn't have to go.")

 

If I give a 30 min warning because the child needs to fit in a piano practice that day, I don't really care if it is 30 min or 40 min (if there are no time limitations) and I don't worry about 10 min less or 10 minutes more. I wouldn't dream of turning off his computer at 31 minutes--not respectful. If I lost track of time and someone turned my computer off I wouldn't be talking to that person ever again ha-ha. But I wouldn't mind a gentle poke.

 

And yet when we have either firm time limits or I need them to help around the house, or go somewhere or leave somewhere, or do something or not do something, etc, I'm listened to with no complaints. They are almost too "obedient."

 

It is not "disrespectful" for there to be consequences to our children's disobedience. Perhaps you don't see it as disobedience, although I don't know why you'd tell a child he had only 30 minutes to do something and yet not expect him to actually do 30 minutes. At any rate, it is why I said it would be necessary to give him a warning that his time is almost up. If turning off the computer is too big a consequence, then at the least going over to him and telling him that his 30 minutes were up would have been acceptable. Why tell him 30 minutes if you didn't really care if it was 40?

 

It is awesome that your children "listen" to you "with no complaints."

[Scarlett]

Ds16 thinks we have too many rules.

 

Our dining room table is in the big middle of our house...I like it keep cleared of stuff. For some reason he insists on leaving his glass right in the middle of the table. At least once a day I remove it or ask him too. He doesn't want to keep getting a clean glass for water all day...which is good....but when I suggest he keep it on the kitchen counter more out of sight...he balks.....he feels he is less likely to accidentally use someone else's glass if his is in the middle if the dining room table. So I suggest he use a water bottle that was bought for him. Nope. He hates the water bottle.

 

So I do consider it disobedience that he continues to put his glass on the dining room table. I have yet to come up with a reasonable consequence for this disobedience. It seems minor enough that I mostly just complain and sometimes yell,about it. But I don't think either on if is handling it right.

 

Other things....keep wet wash clothes out of the shower....have one clean hand towel on the towel rack by bathroom sink....not a pile of wet towels and wash clothes on the counter....if left alone he wil let 10 wash clothes pile up in the shower. This is unsightly and now that dss15 is living here thoughtless to him as well. I don't know if he actually can't remember this or not....if he really can't remember I don't consider it disobedience. If he does remember but it isn't important to him I consider it disobedience. But even if he is not remembering it, I expect him to find a way to remember.

 

Ds15 won't keep his dirty clothes off the floor even though he has a hamper. When I go into his room and find wet towels or dirty clothes on the floor I am not happy. Some may say it is his room let him keep it like he wants. I say no. It is my house and general rules of decency are not too much to ask.

 

So yeah, living with and raising kids is always interesting.

[Guest]

I have to ask. How does one control emotions? Are they not involuntary?

One does not let the mind go where it is not allowed, and one does not allow a display of emotions in one's body language. For ex, if mad at sibling, one does not scream, yell, or hit. There is no porn etc. There is no rolling of the eyes or verbal expression against orders or house rules. Facial expression and body language kept at neutral or subdued positive while conducting one's self.

[marbel]

So the second example would happen here as well, but I don't call this disobedience. Maybe laziness? Or being self-absorbed? lol I'd do the same thing myself. I guess I thought "disobedience" would be a more willfull and determined stance on something.

 

 

I consider it disobedience when a child is given a task and does not do it.  Whether it's laziness or self-absorption doesn't matter to me.

 

"Child, please be sure to clear up the bathroom counter before you leave the house [definition of 'clear up' has been given previously; there is no chance child doesn't understand what is meant]."

 

"OK, I will."

 

Child leaves.  Mother goes into bathroom and sees counter covered in makeup, used cotton balls and q-tips, long hair, etc.  That's disobedience to me. 

 

BTW I know I am talking about a teen, but that teen is still a minor child living in our home.  She can have a nasty dirty bathroom when she has her own place.  But there is also the issue of staining and the risk of standing water seeping or dripping, which can cause damage.  It isn't some meaningless rule I made to be mean. 

 

My children are generally compliant.  We do not have huge rebellions.  Some may see my complaint as very minor, I'm sure.  

[Garga]

I changed my mind. Was writing too much, so I'm changing the whole post to better reflect the truth.

 

Basically:

 

For the most part, the kids do what I ask, but there can be a lot of grousing about it, especially with the youngest. The oldest used to grouse more, but now rarely does. I figure he finally grew out of it and figure the youngest will, too.

 

I am tired of the grousing and tired of having to ask for them to do things multiple times, but there are also executive function issues going on and I'm just now finding out how to deal with them.

 

I do not believe in "obedience", but I do believe in "when I ask you to clean up after yourself, you do it." Right now, I have to ask them to clean up after themselves more than I ought to...but see above about EF.

 

I was a kid who obeyed my parents right away, but...my father also spanked me with a belt. So. There you go.

 

I don't spank. I don't get instant obedience. The oldest doesn't grouse very much at all anymore, but the youngest does. I figure that in a couple more years, he'll be like the oldest. That seems to be his trajectory.

 

The kids are basically good at heart, but don't always follow through, and the youngest pushes boundaries sometimes, but I don't let him knock them down, though he tries from time to time.

Edited August 30, 2016 by Garga

[Crimson Wife]

I recently had to get our iPad screen replaced because my special needs child had a temper tantrum over being given the iPad to entertain herself while I was occupied with something else. She deliberately smashed the iPad to the ground with the protective case open because she was mad. That was a clear case of disobedience- she knew smashing the iPad was naughty but she did it anyways. I would've left the iPad broken as natural consequences except that we need it to do her teletherapy :glare:

 

I could see the "communicative function" of her disobedience (she wanted to get my attention) but she needs to learn how to express it more appropriately and she also needs to learn patience that I can't always drop what I'm doing to cater to her.

[Bluegoat]

Well, I can think of some fairly easily.  My eldest tends to be lazy, especially about things like room cleaning.  She often tells me she has done it when she hasn't, or that she cleaned under her bed when she didn't.  Yesterday she had told me she had done some cleaning - which was so I could help her reorganize her closet which she asked me to do.  When I went in to start, I fouund that it was worse than I had even imagined, including a clothing drawer almost entirely filled with garbage and only a few clothes pushed in on top. 

 

Her punishment was that I cleaned it for her, havingg come to the conclusion that she was not capable of caring for all that stuff.

 

My middle dd is stubborn and will outright refuse to do things like turn off the tv, or she will push or sucker-punch her siblings when she gets angry.  She has run and hidden when she did not want to leave a fun place.

 

My son and his friend I babysit have stolen the sugar from the cupboard and eaten it, or gone to play in the basement where they are not allowed to be.

 

 

I don't tend to be a hard-ass about these things unless they are very deliberate and egregious, and I try and set them up for success.  But I would say that in many ways, that is less successful as a strategy than my husbands approach, which is much more universally expecting things to be done promptly and without too much complaining.  And I think that is really from the kids POV too - with me there is probably a lot more stress in some ways and time spent trying to get out of things, and then finally I get really angry.  With him, expectations are clear, and most of the time they meet them, and no one wastes much time on it.

 

 

[mamiof5]

 

Her punishment was that I cleaned it for her, havingg come to the conclusion that she was not capable of caring for all that stuff.

 

 

Cleaning as in organizing, or taking away what she had? At least for a while? Cleaning for her would be a punishment for me :)

[mamiof5]

We do believe in obedience, there's just so many scenarios in which kids need to learn to do what they are told. Specially safety related... not running away from mom in parking lot etc etc I need them to be obedient.

 

Chores, compliant kids etc, we try to slowly achieve cooperation, as we all need to be respectful and helpful towards our home and those who live with us.

[goldberry]

likewise, since the baby was born it has been the rule that you can't make him laugh. Like on purpose, in the car, because when he laughs a lot, he throws up. 

 

This is truly awful but it made me laugh out loud!  I first read, "you can't make him laugh" and thought dang, how mean, then the followup made me picture this adorable child laughing and then spewing all over the car.

[goldberry]

One does not let the mind go where it is not allowed, and one does not allow a display of emotions in one's body language.

 

. There is no rolling of the eyes or verbal expression against orders or house rules. Facial expression and body language kept at neutral or subdued positive while conducting one's self.

 

This is touchy I think.  When DD was at the stage where she was going overboard with the eye-rolling and sighing, I would say something.  I would say, "you've been going overboard with this, I'm really tired of it, and you need to get a grip."  and she would do so.

 

On the other hand, I appreciated that most of the time, she was doing what I asked her to do.  She was expressing her frustration-dislike-whatever with it in her own way, but she was still doing it.  Kids are already in a position of having to do what they are told, or what everyone else is doing MOST of the time.  I'm sure it does get old.  I would not deny them the right to occasionally express their frustration with that.

[goldberry]

 Facial expression and body language kept at neutral or subdued positive while conducting one's self.

 

Also this part... wow, I don't do that.  In public, professional places, of course.  But in my home, say with my husband, I grimace, roll my eyes, smirk, scowl at the laundry, whatever.

[goldberry]

Cleaning as in organizing, or taking away what she had? At least for a while? Cleaning for her would be a punishment for me :)

 

My DD does NOT want me cleaning her room.  She doesn't like me "in her stuff" and also worries that I throw important things out.  I have in the past successfully threatened me cleaning it as a consequence.  One time I did so. (And no, I did not find any contraband, in case someone was thinking that!)

[6packofun]

It's quite easy to not have (or understand) an obey/disobey framework in homes with little to no expectations of all the family members.  :)  But in ours, we do have them, and try to make sure everyone is on the same page about what is expected for the family to live fairly and harmoniously with each other.  We don't use a lot of obedience language, but that is certainly what it is.  Parents have to obey, too, quite honestly!  We are all free to ask things of one another and be given the choice to help, serve or opt out and make things difficult.  There are moral rules that are higher than us, too, thankfully, so it's not always a matter of "because mom and dad said so!"  We are helping one another keep our responsibilities so that things run smoothly and happily.  So, yeah. Obedience in that sense.

[Guest]

Your kids have never pushed back and whined when you ask them to do something you don't want them to do?

 

Wow.

I know a family like that. 3 boys, not the worlds most strict parents but they always always comply calmly, and listen to logic. They are a delightful family. And I am jealous of them often!

 

I do not think it is common, though. Kids who don't push boundaries or who stay rock steady even when tired or hungry . It's not a bad thing but it's not typical.

 

Unless the parents follow authoritarian parenting methods of course. You can train any child to be obedient through fear.

My kids are agreeable and compliant 99% of the time. I do believe a lot of it is personality, but I think some of it is also the tone of the family. I try to be respectful and accommodating and they are almost always respectful and accommodating in return.

 

(I am not authoritarian.)

[Guest]

I am respectful, accommodating, and generous. Still, teeth get chipped! The other kids had never in his life done anything like that... And he gets less in trouble and more of "remember to do that thing?" And then he's smilingly like "oh right, thanks for reminding me!"

 

It's so so so luck of the draw. And the in-trouble kid has tremendous strengths his brother doesn't. He is always very aware of time and place, for example. So, time doesn't "get away" from him. He doesn't accidentally Wander off when we are out and about.

 

Now, believe me, I have tried to put the fear of God in them both about wandering off. Especially in the woods, or downtown. But one consistently will wander off, and the other never, ever has.

 

If i only had the one I'd be like, "I did a great job teaching him how to be situationally aware." But id be wrong without knowing it because I had no comparison!

Edited August 30, 2016 by OKBud

[wendyroo]

My 7 year old knows no one is allowed to jump on mine and DH's bed.  There is a ceiling fan directly overhead which makes it dangerous, and we have been very consistent with the rule since day one.  Honestly, even if there was no ceiling fan, I would still think we had the right to forbid people jumping on a bed that we bought and that we sleep in.

 

There are plenty of other jumping opportunities.  We have a rebounder and a mattress intended for jumping on the floor in the basement and one of the kid's rooms has a double bed which they are all welcome to jump on.  Just no jumping on our bed!!!

 

DS7 attempts to jump on my bed once or twice a day.  He slips away when I am in the bathroom or cooking dinner.  He sneaks into my room during rest time when he is supposed to be playing quietly in his room.  Yesterday I was folding clean clothes on my bed and had to "remind" DS every couple minutes that he was not allowed to jump on it.  I left the room to put away a stack of baby clothes and the last words out of my mouth were "Sit here with your hand on the closet door and don't move until I get back" and when I returned 30 seconds later DS was bouncing away like he didn't have a care in the world.

 

Because of his mental illness I don't even "count" most of that as disobedience...it is just the absolute status quo that goes on every minute of every day and I just consistently get him off the bed, implement the pre-determined consequence and resolve to not let him out of my sight even to go to the bathroom.  But when we reach the point that he won't even fight his impulse for 30 seconds when given a clear directive, even his therapist and psychiatrist agree he is choosing to disobey.  At some point you just have to call a spade a spade.

 

Wendy

[marbel]

We have goals, rather than expectations, which incorporate fairness and harmony. 

 

You don't need to use a concept of 'obedience' to have a functioning family. Strange, but true. 

 

It's kind of rude to insinuate otherwise.

 

So, what do you do when the goals don't match?   For example, when I spoke of my daughter and cleaning the bathroom.  She does not share my goal of having a clean bathroom.   What would you do?  The only alternative I can think of is:  it's my goal to have a clean bathroom, not hers, so I am the one who should clean it, and leave her out of it altogether.  I guess that would make the home more harmonious.  

 

I'm a little stunned to learn about such harmonious homes where everyone works so well together that there are never any conflicts.  I don't mean that in a snarky way.  My husband and I also treat our children with respect are not particularly authoritarian, but we do need all the people to help out in the house we share, whether they want to or not.   

[Guest]

Sadie, I have to be honest that your framework sounds mentally and emotionally exhausting. Our house wouldn't function if everyone, including mom and dad, didn't do what needed to be done promptly and without ad nauseum discussion. I wouldn't say I'm particularly authoritarian as a personality, but it would be complete chaos here if everyone viewed their chores, obligations, and activities as negotiable based on fairness or contribution of other members.

 

This just goes to show that what fits one family doesn't necessarily fit another, and assuming one way is best is foolish! Every family has different needs and structure - which is why universal prescriptions on family life are doomed to fail :lol:

 

As for us, we do a lot of training in both attitude and basic skills, then it runs pretty smoothly once they've got it. My kids have easy temperaments (except for two of them) and generally enjoy helping, or know why they need to. Most of my time is reminding them to stay on task or breaking up squabbles among siblings that any real discipline or teaching at this point. Consistent expectations and schedules seem to help all of us, and I don't mind someone asking a question about a task or asking if they can shuffle things around - provided they ask before just autonomously deciding it (since I usually have a specific reason for needing it now or in a certain order).

 

I try focus on attitude and relationship the most, but that only works when the basics are getting done so we can function. Thankfully we have a good rhythm for the basics and thus the mental energy to deal with the relationship aspect. Still much of daily life is a routine of things we have to complete. I always figured that was the way everyone worked but obviously not!

[ktgrok]

 

 

I'm a little stunned to learn about such harmonious homes where everyone works so well together that there are never any conflicts.  I don't mean that in a snarky way.  My husband and I also treat our children with respect are not particularly authoritarian, but we do need all the people to help out in the house we share, whether they want to or not.   

 

If it helps, I'm stunned too. I've had to give my children "orders" for them to "obey" a couple dozen times today I think. Many of which were the same thing over and over. "Stop running in the store" "Stop touching your brother" "No roughhousing in the house" "Don't drag your little brother around by his feet". 

 

Call it what you will, but when I say stop, they need to stop. Or more than likely someone will get hurt. Again. 

 

Just this evening I said "Stay in the other room. The floors in here are wet and I don't want you to slip and fall. Sit down, and I will bring you your food." He didn't obey. He walked on the wet floor, slipped, and hurt himself. 

 

I told them it was time to get ready for bed. That if they were quick they could watch an episode of Voltron with daddy before bed, but they needed to go get ready. They did, and they got to watch the show. They were obedient. 

 

So yeah, I like some obedience. It makes the house run well and people don't get hurt. I don't know if other people just don't tell their kids to stop roughhousing, or running in the store, or to get ready for bed, or if they are calling it something other than obedience when the kids do it. 

[Guest]

I wonder how much of this is age related too? I fully expect older kids and teens to work more freely and with more autonomy than my current aged children, and probably arrange their schedules as they gain responsibility and agency too. But I don't have teens yet, I have grade schoolers down to infant. So we are more in the basic responsibility/attitude stage where habits are being trained and set.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[marbel]

I wonder how much of this is age related too? I fully expect older kids and teens to work more freely and with more autonomy than my current aged children, and probably arrange their schedules as they gain responsibility and agency too. But I don't have teens yet, I have grade schoolers down to infant. So we are more in the basic responsibility/attitude stage where habits are being trained and set.

 

Yes, I'm thinking this too.  It's easier to reason things out with big kids.  Although, as you know from my posts, even with the ability to reason things out, I don't always get the results I want. 

[marbel]

Sadie, I have to be honest that your framework sounds mentally and emotionally exhausting. Our house wouldn't function if everyone, including mom and dad, didn't do what needed to be done promptly and without ad nauseum discussion. I wouldn't say I'm particularly authoritarian as a personality, but it would be complete chaos here if everyone viewed their chores, obligations, and activities as negotiable based on fairness or contribution of other members.

 

<snip>

 

I agree. That is a lot of emotional energy being put into something as simple as a bathroom counter clear of trash and random clutter (in my example, anyway).  

[ktgrok]

 I did a lot more skills teaching and modelling with my kids when they were little. But, no, we didn't ever have days where I had to tell them multiple times to obey or do as they were told or whatever.

 

.

 

 

Ok, so in my family, today, I've had to tell them to stop running in the store (so they don't trip up other people or get rammed into with a cart), to stop screaming because it hurts my head, to stop wrestling (because it ALWAYS ends up with one of them hurt and with hurt feelings), and to not walk on the wet floor because the tile was slippery and I didn't want him to fall. 

 

You didn't have to say these things? Did your kids just never run in the grocery store, be too loud, or walk on wet floors, lol? You never had to tell them to stop what they were doing? Or do it somewhere else? I just cannot picture this. I cannot picture a 3 yr old that just either never does anything dangerous, or is allowed to do whatever he wants. Seems th only other alternative is to tell him what to or not to do, at least in safety issues. 

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[Guest]

Ok, so in my family, today, I've had to tell them to stop running in the store (so they don't trip up other people or get rammed into with a cart), to stop screaming because it hurts my head, to stop wrestling (because it ALWAYS ends up with one of them hurt and with hurt feelings), and to not walk on the wet floor because the tile was slippery and I didn't want him to fall.

 

You didn't have to say these things? Did your kids just never run in the grocery store, be too loud, or walk on wet floors, lol? You never had to tell them to stop what they were doing? Or do it somewhere else? I just cannot picture this. I cannot picture a 3 yr old that just either never does anything dangerous, or is allowed to do whatever he wants. Seems th only other alternative is to tell him what to or not to do, at least in safety issues.

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Your day sounds like mine some days - we do pretty well for awhile and then some days my kids are crazy people and it's a struggle to keep them from bickering, stealing toys, or just plain injuring themselves from a lack of care. Those days I do a lot of straight up correcting and reminding, compared to the smoother days where it's the occasional comment about using a nice voice or taking turns.

 

Those rough days make me feel like a horrible mom, but I think it's mostly hormones talking :lol:

[8circles]

Sadie, I have to be honest that your framework sounds mentally and emotionally exhausting. Our house wouldn't function if everyone, including mom and dad, didn't do what needed to be done promptly and without ad nauseum discussion. I wouldn't say I'm particularly authoritarian as a personality, but it would be complete chaos here if everyone viewed their chores, obligations, and activities as negotiable based on fairness or contribution of other members.

 

This just goes to show that what fits one family doesn't necessarily fit another, and assuming one way is best is foolish! Every family has different needs and structure - which is why universal prescriptions on family life are doomed to fail :lol:

 

As for us, we do a lot of training in both attitude and basic skills, then it runs pretty smoothly once they've got it. My kids have easy temperaments (except for two of them) and generally enjoy helping, or know why they need to. Most of my time is reminding them to stay on task or breaking up squabbles among siblings that any real discipline or teaching at this point. Consistent expectations and schedules seem to help all of us, and I don't mind someone asking a question about a task or asking if they can shuffle things around - provided they ask before just autonomously deciding it (since I usually have a specific reason for needing it now or in a certain order).

 

I try focus on attitude and relationship the most, but that only works when the basics are getting done so we can function. Thankfully we have a good rhythm for the basics and thus the mental energy to deal with the relationship aspect. Still much of daily life is a routine of things we have to complete. I always figured that was the way everyone worked but obviously not!

 

LOL - I was going to post about reading some of the other responses and feeling stressed out just reading about all the obedience and expectations.  I think so much of this is personality.

 

We don't have a conflict-free home.  I also don't value obedience.  I read Sadie's descriptions and it sounds very similar to how we view these situations.  I don't find it to be exhausting, but yes - it does take effort.  I have to care about the answer to all those questions and I have to care about them more than I care about the clean bathroom.  Turns out I generally care much less than many people about things like makeup on the bathroom counter.  Always have, I expect I always will.  I was raised in a very obedience-focused home very similar to some of the posts here.  It was not only exhausting it was opressive.  

 

I think that many homes seem to function well with the obedience model.  Some function very well using a different model.

[8circles]

I agree. That is a lot of emotional energy being put into something as simple as a bathroom counter clear of trash and random clutter (in my example, anyway).  

 

I think some people have a much bigger need for emotional relationship & connection.  It's respectful to acknowledge that & do your best to satisfy it instead of insist that your way is better because it's just a bathroom counter.

[ktgrok]

 lol, they ran sometimes, and they stopped running if they were going to get in someone's way. 

 

Idk. Mine are pretty co-operative personalities, they liked to work with me, they were good listeners, and they seemed to remember stuff  easily ( like 'hey, it would be easy to slip on the wet floor and bang your head!' ) and react accordingly. 

 

If it makes you feel any better, they did do 'naughty' things sometimes. Once dd2 spat on dd1's head. That's pretty naughty! One time dd1 wouldn't leave a store because she loved a little pink bag too much to leave it behind. I bought it :) Um. Dd2 stole chocolate out of the fridge one time ? That was naughty but also cute. She was only about 2. 

 

Yeah...must be nice. Spit on the other one's head once??? I must have asked my 3 yr old not to spit 3 times just today! (to be fair he likes the noise he makes while doing it, he's not trying to be gross. But it IS gross and I don't like being spit on). 

 

I am curious...would you say "Don't walk on the wet floor, you could slip" or would you really just say "It would be easy to slip on the wet floor" and let them figure it out? Even as 2 or 3 year olds? Because if I said "it would be easy to slip" my son would say "don't worry, I'll be careful." And then he would slip anyway. 

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[8circles]

Ok, so in my family, today, I've had to tell them to stop running in the store (so they don't trip up other people or get rammed into with a cart), to stop screaming because it hurts my head, to stop wrestling (because it ALWAYS ends up with one of them hurt and with hurt feelings), and to not walk on the wet floor because the tile was slippery and I didn't want him to fall. 

 

You didn't have to say these things? Did your kids just never run in the grocery store, be too loud, or walk on wet floors, lol? You never had to tell them to stop what they were doing? Or do it somewhere else? I just cannot picture this. I cannot picture a 3 yr old that just either never does anything dangerous, or is allowed to do whatever he wants. Seems th only other alternative is to tell him what to or not to do, at least in safety issues. 

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If my children behave like hellions in a store - yes, it happens - I strap young ones into the cart and make the big ones push the cart or salk right next to me.  Because it's disrespectful to the other shoppers to behave that way in a store.  Worst case scenario, we leave the store without buying anything.  Yes - sometimes this can get tricky, less so when they get older.  

 

Children screaming giving me a headache - explain to older children that it hurts me - my children aren't angels but they don't want to hurt people.  All ages - I try to redirect, send them outside, ask them why they're screaming, etc.  If they don't willingly stop, I'm not sure what you would do about it anyway.

 

Wet slippery floor?  Honestly, I make a point to wash the floors when nobody else is around/.  A couple of my kids struggle with impulse control (I don't think this is unusual, especially for boys) and they forget these kind of rules very quickly so I try to be preventative instead of expecting obedience.   If they are around I warn them and then they take their own risk - yes we've had some falls but that's life.  But we do have wood floors and not tile.

 

I used to parent with a very obedience-focused model.  It made everyone miserable, especially me. 

[8circles]

You're assuming that conflict is frequent. I agree, it would be exhausting in that case. 

 

I suppose I enjoyed all the discussion and modelling and skill sharing when the kids were little. 

 

We don't have that much conflict, and never have.  I can't even remember the last time we had a negotiation around housework! Generally, one of us asks and the rest of us co-operate. 

 

I am not burnt out :)

 

I don't really care what other families do - I do resent the implication ( not from your post ) that it's simply not possible to parent well without a concept of 'obedience'.  It is. It may not suit everyone, and not everyone lucks out on parent-child fit, and child temperament the way I did, but we exist, and our kids grew up OK :)

 

Well, some days conflict is very frequent here at our house.  That's life.  It is exhausting but not anymore than it would be if I expected obedience and didn't get it because of some reason that I didn't bother to find out about.

[Ausmumof3]

I have time management issues myself so I don't tend to think of not doing things by a certain time as disobedience. I also have major issues with remembering to put stuff away and not surprisingly so do they. And when my computer times over and I have to cook dinner I have an internal hissy fit much like a kid that doesn't want their computer time does its just they are verbalising it.

 

I do get cranky if they are behaving in a way that's disrespectful or majorly unconveniencimg someone outside the family. I like them to be polite and respectful.

 

We do have a lot of chaos in our home. I mostly find it easier to deal with a bit of chaos than the level of micromanaging it takes to achieve compliance with everything. I have Other friends who would find it harder to deal with the chaos. They are different approaches but neither is wrong it's just working out what work best for the people in each group.