can we talk about learning a foreign language?

[Roadrunner]

O.K. if you have been successful at learning a foreign language, or you are a serious learner, what does your day look like? 

We have been studying French for three years, and I think we have made a lot of progress, but I am always unsure if we do too much or too little. 

In our home, we spend about an hour every day on French. We read half a chapter of Le Petit Nicolas (that's the book we are doing right now, but that will change), work a little on vocab words, do a listening exercise from a different book, and at least one grammar exercise a day. Once a week we have a prepared dictation. Is that enough? What are we missing?

How do you approach foreign language learning? 

 

 

[regentrude]

I found that with the above method we plateaued after a few years since I am not fluent in French, but was learning alongside DD. 

We used a book with audio CDs, books to read, vocab cards, grammar exercise books. That is fine for beginners, but will not achieve fluency.

The only progress came when we added a tutor who was a native speaker; we saw him once a week for an hour. He went with us over the composition assignment we had prepared, and spent the rest of the time in conversation.

To correct and improve both our compositions and our conversation absolutely required a fluent person.

DD then proceeded to take classes at the university with a teacher who was fluent in French and able to do these things.

 

I myself learned two languages to fluency in school. In both cases, speaking practice, dialog and conversation with other students overseen by a fluent teacher, as well as extensive composition exercises evaluated and corrected by a fluent teacher, were essential for success.

I am self studying French, and while I am a passable reader and can comprehend slowly spoken French, my conversation skills are almost nonexistent and I am not a good writer - I would need a teacher for these things.

 

I found homeschooling a foreign language in which I am not fluent the hardest subject and, ultimately, impossible to pull off without outside help. (I know some extraordinarily talented and interested students manage without; I consider those rare.)

Edited August 29, 2016 by regentrude

[Arcadia]

What is your child's end goal? My kids end goal for german is recreational. Their end goal for chinese is that of a heritage language, who can fluently translate between chinese and english both written and spoken on the fly. My hubby translates during conference calls with China and US employees.

 

My kids did recreational german saturday class 12 weeks x 2 semesters for four years so far. They have textbooks which they follow. They do not do dictation. What they cover is

- conversation for daily life

- aural comprehension (listen and answer questions)

- reading comprehension (read and answer questions)

- short essay writing

- vocabulary (textbook & workbook)

- grammar (textbook & worbook)

- written translation from english to german and vice versa

 

For their german school, the focus on german to pass the AP German is in high school age students but any younger kid can opt for that track earlier. So there is a 5th grader and a 6th grader on the AP track.

 

My hubby was successful at german as a 3rd language. He put in at least 2hrs a day every day for two years. I put in less than an hour daily and wasn't as successful. We were classmates for german.

 

ETA:

English and Chinese are hubby and my first language. So technically German would be 2nd language (?) but that sounds weird.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Arcadia

[bibiche]

Maybe you need a more immersive experience. I know a lot of people who speak really good English without ever having been to an English speaking country or having much exposure to native speakers. In every case they listen to a lot of English language music and watch English language movies and television. They are perhaps not fluent, but their accents are impeccable and their conversational skills really quite good.

 

So maybe in addition to what you are doing, add in radio (news radios is great since it repeats), music, movies, television, and more light and enjoyable reading like you are doing - perhaps popular print or online magazines so you can get a handle on how people really talk. I can't see what age your student is, but if I knew and knew what his/her interests are perhaps I could give you some suggestions for materials.

 

A tutor is invaluable, as has been pointed out, but I think there are definitely ways to increase proficiency even without one.

[Roadrunner]

Yes, we watch French cartoons and we have a native speaker at home, but we haven't been able to get him to contribute! I really need to get DH to speak with the kids more now that they can speak. My goal is for my kids to have two working languages, English and French. 

[Arcadia]

Have you taken a look at the SAT French? Maybe try the online practice test yourself.

https://subjecttestspractice.collegeboard.org/practice/sat-subject-test-preparation-french?practiceTestSectionIDKey=Subject.FRENCH

 

My kids tried the SAT German cold and found they have to review their previous years work as well as improve to get a good score on the practice test.

 

I tried the SAT Chinese with listening and it was a breeze to get all correct. My kids of course couldn't do as well as we just started on the reading and writing part of chinese.

 

I find my hubby is wishy washy in helping without clear goals. So I set the target for my hubby's help to be minimum of helping our kids do decently well in SAT Chinese. Then we try for AP Chinese level. That way my hubby has milestones to aim for.

[happypamama]

DD is teaching herself Spanish via DuoLingo. She's able to understand some conversations in Spanish. I don't speak Spanish at all. I went through Getting Started With Spanish with her, and I'm working through DuoLingo but much more slowly. She spends an hour or a little less most days on DuoLingo both learning new stuff and doing the flash cards included on the program. We have an advanced grammar text to work through later this year as well. She's in 9th grade now, and at whatever point she tops out what we can do at home, I'm hoping to have her do a college class during 10th or 11th, and I am hoping she'll place out of the first level class. My goal is to have college transfer credits and/or a strong score on the SAT subject test (possibly AP also but I'm less enamoured of those because of the expense and high stakes).

 

She's also learning Latin at home. I've learned alongside her every step of the way from the first page of Getting Started With Latin in about third grade to Latin Alive, which we are doing now. We used to do Latin twice a week. She's stepped it up so we do it most days, together. She spends about ten minutes a day making and reviewing flash cards, and I spend half an hour or so (about half a chapter a day right now) going over the lesson and exercises with her.

[regentrude]

Yes, we watch French cartoons and we have a native speaker at home, but we haven't been able to get him to contribute! I really need to get DH to speak with the kids more now that they can speak. My goal is for my kids to have two working languages, English and French. 

 

Oh, so they have a French parent?

In that case, you need to switch to OPOL  (one parent one language) and have your DH consistently speak only French to the kids. Ideal would have been from birth so that they grow up with both languages by immersion; too bad that he wasted this opportunity.

It is possible to have kids trilingual; my friends (German mom, Italian Dad, living in US) managed, but it required dedicated time with just dad during which only Italian was spoken.

Good luck. It requires a lot of stamina to get kids proficient in even a heritage language.

[Roadrunner]

Oh, so they have a French parent?

In that case, you need to switch to OPOL (one parent one language) and have your DH consistently speak only French to the kids. Ideal would have been from birth so that they grow up with both languages by immersion; too bad that he wasted this opportunity.

It is possible to have kids trilingual; my friends (German mom, Italian Dad, living in US) managed, but it required dedicated time with just dad during which only Italian was spoken.

Good luck. It requires a lot of stamina to get kids proficient in even a heritage language.

I am fighting for 2 hours a week!

[bibiche]

Yes, we watch French cartoons and we have a native speaker at home, but we haven't been able to get him to contribute! I really need to get DH to speak with the kids more now that they can speak. My goal is for my kids to have two working languages, English and French. 

 

Ah, well then you have your answer.  We do OPOL here, so I know it works. Maybe a trip back to visit family would help convince your husband of the importance of transferring his language/culture..?  Good luck!

[regentrude]

I am fighting for 2 hours a week!

 

Why is that? Does he not want to pass his heritage on to his kids? My French friends consider this a very high priority.

 

I hope you mean you fight for 2 hrs of French, not for two hours of a dad spending time with his kids!

 

Can you take the kids to France to visit extended family? That usually gives a big boost for language skills.

[2_girls_mommy]

For my 9th grader with latin, she has always had an hour of co-op class once a week, then worked the rest of the week at home through her Form and Henle books. We also did an hour a week of Latin club for several years where we covered culture, did fun activities to do so, went to plays, performed plays, memorized a lot of subjects over the years by focusing on certain aspects of Roman Culture. I used the special subject of the Exploratory Latin Exam each year and their regular syllabus for this. And then for a couple of months before the exams each year, we met together with a few others for another hour a week to study together. So we had up to three hours a week of talking, memorizing, reciting, practicing, and lesson time, plus 4 plus hours a week of book work/translation work and listening to CDs.

 

This year, for 9th, she will be working totally on her own with no outside classes. So it is mostly translation work for an hour each day. We will add at least an hour of studying for the exams for a couple of months later in the year.

 

Later for Spanish, I plan to use a dual enrollment class for at least one year of a modern language on top of her 2 of Latin. I think she will do fine with that since she has had so much latin.

[2_girls_mommy]

And don't want to forget my 7th grader. She does still have an hour a week of a co-op Latin class. She works through translation work at home. Latin is our main focus.

But I am having her do Spanish too, but still just for an introduction at this point. Right now she spends 15-20 min a day on EasyPeasyAllinOneHomeschool's 7th grade Spanish curric. It links to vocab games and such. I spend one day a week going over a grammar lesson from a textbook on it with her. I still don't know in high school which way she will go, modern, ancient, or both, so I am doing both with her. But Spanish isn't serious yet.

[madteaparty]

Why is that? Does he not want to pass his heritage on to his kids? My French friends consider this a very high priority.

 

I hope you mean you fight for 2 hrs of French, not for two hours of a dad spending time with his kids!

 

Can you take the kids to France to visit extended family? That usually gives a big boost for language skills.

Not everyone is super invested in passing on heritage language. I certainly never taught my kids mine, and I'm with them all day :)

[luuknam]

Not everyone is super invested in passing on heritage language. I certainly never taught my kids mine, and I'm with them all day :)

 

That said, if the kids had been spending an hour a day for a few years on it, I'd make an effort to help them, even if I didn't really care. And it's not like French is some fringe language where it's like "why on earth would you want to learn this language?".

 

FWIW, I'm not great at switching languages - yes, I speak more than one language, but to suddenly speak this instead of that... not that easy, especially if I haven't spoken the language in a long time. If I call my parents after I haven't talked to them for months, my Dutch tends to be riddled with random English words or odd phrasings to get my ideas across. And last time I visited NL (over 9 years ago) my dentist commented on my grammar being anglicized. So, I could imagine the OP's husband feeling awkward speaking French if he rarely uses it.

[madteaparty]

That said, if the kids had been spending an hour a day for a few years on it, I'd make an effort to help them, even if I didn't really care. And it's not like French is some fringe language where it's like "why on earth would you want to learn this language?".

 

FWIW, I'm not great at switching languages - yes, I speak more than one language, but to suddenly speak this instead of that... not that easy, especially if I haven't spoken the language in a long time. If I call my parents after I haven't talked to them for months, my Dutch tends to be riddled with random English words or odd phrasings to get my ideas across. And last time I visited NL (over 9 years ago) my dentist commented on my grammar being anglicized. So, I could imagine the OP's husband feeling awkward speaking French if he rarely uses it.

Of course I agree, because the family is invested. But I get all the time "why wouldn't you teach them your mother language?". It gets old. For one, especially if the parent works, asking them to come home and translate everything for the benefit of enhancing the kids' learning is a bit much to ask. I would not have agreed to that when I was working. It's different when parents speak the same language and just chat away naturally. It's a lot of work to translate back and forth../

[J-rap]

I let each of my kids pick a foreign language around 4th grade or so.  We stuck with the more common languages (Spanish, French and German), but if they really wanted to learn another that would have been okay.

 

We really were doing it only as fun exposure at that age, with no real expectations of becoming fluent since we were unable to immerse them in it.   My husband was fluent in Spanish and French so he could help them, but he was at work all day so it was mostly me who worked with them.

 

So we began with songs (songs where you learn numbers, days of the week, etc.) and games, and slowly moved into basic vocabulary, labeling things around the house, etc.  It was definitely not intensive at all, but we kept at it and tried to keep it fun.

 

In high school we became more serious about it.  We required at least three years in high school, and we outsourced.  Some were able to take it at the local PS, some online, some through a television class (where the teacher was elsewhere in the state).  It was a lot more intensive in high school, and because they enjoyed it, they probably put more effort into foreign language than anything else in high school.  I was really surprised at how well the online learning went!  

 

Two of my children wanted to continue working toward fluency, so after high school graduation, they attended a year-long program in a country of the language they were studying.  The program was an international program that taught in the language of the country.  My dd who went to France was only allowed to speak English in her dorm room.

 

After that year, they were at a good place in their languages, certainly not fluent yet but quite easily able to pass out of all grammar level courses in college, moving directly into literature and the other higher level foreign language courses.

 

During college they also did a semester abroad (or more) in the country of the language they were studying.  Often on those programs you can choose to have English or native language instruction, so they always chose native language instruction (language of the country).

 

Now they are both pretty much fluent in those languages.  One daughter actually did all of her schooling in Central America so she took all of her courses in that language.  

 

There is no way they would have become fluent with just traditional textbook learning at home.  At the same time, moving into it very slowly in the beginning (with just songs and games) was fine.  My dd's both mentioned how many times those early vocabulary songs came to mind as they were moving onto more advanced studies of the language!

 

I forgot to mention that during summers (beginning the summer after high school), they would read novels in the language they were studying, but novels they had already read in English.  They found this to be incredibly helpful.  They also watched movies they knew that had been dubbed in the foreign language, and streamed radio stations online from those countries.  Every little bit helps!

[Arcadia]

If I call my parents after I haven't talked to them for months, my Dutch tends to be riddled with random English words or odd phrasings to get my ideas across. And last time I visited NL (over 9 years ago) my dentist commented on my grammar being anglicized. So, I could imagine the OP's husband feeling awkward speaking French if he rarely uses it.

That might be true for OP's husband.

We talk to our parents at least once a week. We have friends we chat with by text messaging in our language. Hubby has to translate for his work. I have seniors asking me to translate when I am at the library. An elderly lady asked me to translate English cookbooks into Chinese for her. I brought her to the Chinese cookbooks shelves instead and she was delighted. So for us, we have plenty of practice in our heritage language.

 

  

Not everyone is super invested in passing on heritage language. I certainly never taught my kids mine, and I'm with them all day :)

People talk to my kids in our heritage language. My kids are indirectly force to learn to converse. I have 3 heritage language, hubby has 2, we are only passing down one heritage language.

 

Chinese is more my hubby's "job" than mine. After "nagging" for all other subjects including swimming, I need a break.

 

My mom would talk to my dad in English and he would reply in Chinese :) They have been married 47 years so far.

[madteaparty]

That might be true for OP's husband.

We talk to our parents at least once a week. We have friends we chat with by text messaging in our language. Hubby has to translate for his work. I have seniors asking me to translate when I am at the library. An elderly lady asked me to translate English cookbooks into Chinese for her. I brought her to the Chinese cookbooks shelves instead and she was delighted. So for us, we have plenty of practice in our heritage language.

 

People talk to my kids in our heritage language.

I don't know about OP but there's heritages and heritages ;) I don't have any of these "problems"/ opportunities with mine ;)

[regentrude]

Of course I agree, because the family is invested. But I get all the time "why wouldn't you teach them your mother language?". It gets old. For one, especially if the parent works, asking them to come home and translate everything for the benefit of enhancing the kids' learning is a bit much to ask. I would not have agreed to that when I was working. It's different when parents speak the same language and just chat away naturally. It's a lot of work to translate back and forth../

 

But why translate? If the parent (even the working parent) speaks his language with the kids from birth, they will not require translation.

It seems such a wasted opportunity because it is so much easier to acquire a language like this than to painfully learn if from books and worksheets later in life. If it is just conversational fluency and you don't worry about proper writing,  it would be almost effortless to just... talk to the kids.

 

May I ask why you don't care that your kids speak your language? Trying to understand.

 

(I also have a hard time wrapping my mind around spouses that did not learn each other's language. All the multilingual couples I know did.)

Edited August 30, 2016 by regentrude

[madteaparty]

But why translate? If the parent (even the working parent) speaks his language with the kids from birth, they will not require translation.

It seems such a wasted opportunity because it is so much easier to acquire a language like this than to painfully learn if from books and worksheets later in life. If it is just conversational fluency and you don't worry about proper writing, it would be almost effortless to just... talk to the kids.

 

May I ask why you don't care that your kids speak your language? Trying to understand.

 

(I also have a hard time wrapping my mind around spouses that did not learn each other's language. All the multilingual couples I know did.)

it is translation if you have been in this country longer than the other one, your entire higher education happened in English, you work using English words all day and return home to an English speaking spouse. For the few hours a working parent has with their kids in a given working day, it is a lot to ask. For me, anyway. As to why I don't care to teach my native language, I did a cost benefit analysis and came on that end of it. It's easier to learn Arabic frankly :) I know quite a few parents that didn't teach the heritage language, it is easier to not mention it to avoid mother tongue shaming :) Edited August 30, 2016 by madteaparty

[luuknam]

(I also have a hard time wrapping my mind around spouses that did not learn each other's language. All the multilingual couples I know did.)

 

My wife doesn't speak Dutch. Occasionally she'll try a little. At some point she figured she'd learn it along with our kids. I started out talking to my oldest in both Dutch and English (I can't do OPOL - I'd go crazy doing only Dutch), but he turned out to have a massive speech/language/communication delay (and HFA), so I ended up doing only English hoping he'd end up speaking at least *one* language, rather than none. My wife says she wants to learn, she's even gone to NL to interview for a job, but...

 

That said, Dutch is what I'd consider a relatively useless language to learn. The main reason I'm teaching the kids is because there is a chance we might move there at some point, and that if something were to happen to us, the kids would go to my parents (and, university is cheaper there, especially if the kids want to go to med school, which I doubt they will, but w/e). But realistically, if you're just tourists in NL, everybody over about 12yo knows English as a second language, so what's the point?

[regentrude]

That said, Dutch is what I'd consider a relatively useless language to learn. The main reason I'm teaching the kids is because there is a chance we might move there at some point, and that if something were to happen to us, the kids would go to my parents (and, university is cheaper there, especially if the kids want to go to med school, which I doubt they will, but w/e). But realistically, if you're just tourists in NL, everybody over about 12yo knows English as a second language, so what's the point?

 

I guess I am thinking beyond mere utility when it comes to my language heritage. It is intricately related to my culture. Songs, poems, fairy tales, literature all live through the language. 

It was important to me that my children grow up with the nursery rhymes, stories, folk songs, traditional children's books that constitute cultural canon for children back home. It was important to take them back, so they become familiar with the country where I grew up, develop a relationship to their extended family, feel that it has something to do with them, not just with their parents. 

They are dual citizens. They could make the choice to go live there, even temporarily. I wanted them to be equipped to have a realistic choice and to feel at home in both worlds - not just practically, but also culturally and emotionally. For me, language is tied inextricably with emotion (after my emigration to the US, I was unable to write poetry for over a decade even though I am completely fluent in all other aspects of life).

Edited August 31, 2016 by regentrude

[madteaparty]

I guess I am thinking beyond mere utility when it comes to my language heritage. It is intricately related to my culture. Songs, poems, fairy tales, literature all live through the language.

It was important to me that my children grow up with the nursery rhymes, stories, folk songs, traditional children's books that constitute cultural canon for children back home. It was important to take them back, so they become familiar with the country where I grew up, develop a relationship to their extended family, feel that it has something to do with them, not just with their parents.

They are dual citizens. They could make the choice to go live there, even temporarily. I wanted them to be equipped to have a realistic choice and to feel at home in both worlds - not just practically, but also emotionally. For me, language is tied inextricably with emotion (after my emigration to the US, I was unable to write poetry for over a decade even though I am completely fluent in all other aspects of life).

Sure. But emotions run both ways. That is to say, when you use emotion to justify making one choice, it is possible to imagine others use that same emotion to come to the opposite result.

My children visit my country of origin yearly, as they visit many other countries. We all enjoy it immensely as tourists, me as much as them. :)

[regentrude]

Sure. But emotions run both ways. That is to say, when you use emotion to justify making one choice, it is possible to imagine others use that same emotion to come to the opposite result.

 

I completely respect your choice, I am just trying to understand. I guess if I had a horrible childhood or lived in a horrible place I'd do everything to cut myself off completely from the culture and become solely "American" ... 

[madteaparty]

I completely respect your choice, I am just trying to understand. I guess if I had a horrible childhood or lived in a horrible place I'd do everything to cut myself off completely from the culture and become solely "American" ...

Nope.I'm not very good at explaining things on these boards, as I repeatedly find myself being asked to explain.

Anyway, back to OP...J and E should go to camp in Montreal next summer together...we can Airbnb an apt, put them in afterschool tutoring and institute a "French if you want to have iPad time" rule ;)

I'm also sending mine to Switzerland next summer...

Edited August 31, 2016 by madteaparty

[Mabelen]

But why translate? If the parent (even the working parent) speaks his language with the kids from birth, they will not require translation.

It seems such a wasted opportunity because it is so much easier to acquire a language like this than to painfully learn if from books and worksheets later in life. If it is just conversational fluency and you don't worry about proper writing, it would be almost effortless to just... talk to the kids.

 

May I ask why you don't care that your kids speak your language? Trying to understand.

 

(I also have a hard time wrapping my mind around spouses that did not learn each other's language. All the multilingual couples I know did.)

My husband and I learned basic words and sentences in each other's language but to be honest, that is it. Neither of us is remotely fluent. My husband gets by with my side of the family when he visits Spain with the few basic words and phrases he knows, plus now the girls can act as translators for him! My husband's side of the family are all perfectly bilingual in English and Tamil. Even if I had learned Tamil, it is a minority language in Sri Lanka, so I would still have a communication barrier with the majority. Our girls are fluent in Spanish but don't know any Tamil. Having said that, neither does their American cousin who has 2 native Tamil speaking parents.

[Roadrunner]

In our case we have so many languages with native ability, but English was the only common one between us. I was a working mom with two kids who were being shuffled from babysitters to daycare providers and my husband worked all the time. It has been just a few years that I have been at home and DH only has one day off and works loooong hours every day. Basically we failed at birth to teach them and when we finally decided to do something, it wasn't as easy, especially given the work schedules.

I didn't want to start a debate, but was just wondering what learning a foreign language looked like in other people's homes.

[Roadrunner]

Nope.I'm not very good at explaining things on these boards, as I repeatedly find myself being asked to explain.

Anyway, back to OP...J and E should go to camp in Montreal next summer together...we can Airbnb an apt, put them in afterschool tutoring and institute a "French if you want to have iPad time" rule ;)

I'm also sending mine to Switzerland next summer...

Montreal sounds amazing!

[Roadrunner]

I completely respect your choice, I am just trying to understand. I guess if I had a horrible childhood or lived in a horrible place I'd do everything to cut myself off completely from the culture and become solely "American" ...

In my experience, it's easier to teach a heritage language when both parents are from the same country. Even working parents around us managed that because language spoken at home was a heritage language. This is harder to do when the only common language between parents is English and husband and wife communicate in English. Ir can be done, but it's tough, especially with two kids in diapers and a full time job.

[Arcadia]

My goal is for my kids to have two working languages, English and French.

 

  

I am fighting for 2 hours a week!

My hubby is not a conversationalist. He is like my DS11 and can be silent all day. What my kids did was get him to translate from English to Chinese. That he is willing to do. Also when we go grocery shopping, he tells them the name of food items in Chinese reinforcing their vocabulary of food items. We also hire a tutor to focus on essay writing since hubby and I are pathetic at teaching essay in any language.

 

My kids' Chinese tutor's teen did not want to learn Chinese until her cousins refuse to text her in English when group texting since 6 cousins text Chinese. So her daughter was out voted and now willing to lean to read Chinese.

 

Assuming your husband blocks out 2 hrs a week for French in his schedule, do you have a plan for him as in something similar to lesson plans?

 

It really is not easy to teach kids another language so don't give up. My kid's cello teacher learn Chinese as a working adult when he had to travel to China often. How multilingual is your area? If my area had been mainly monolingual, I would probably have given up short of sending my kids back home every summer for immersion.

[Roadrunner]

My hubby is not a conversationalist. He is like my DS11 and can be silent all day. What my kids did was get him to translate from English to Chinese. That he is willing to do. Also when we go grocery shopping, he tells them the name of food items in Chinese reinforcing their vocabulary of food items. We also hire a tutor to focus on essay writing since hubby and I are pathetic at teaching essay in any language.

 

My kids' Chinese tutor's teen did not want to learn Chinese until her cousins refuse to text her in English when group texting since 6 cousins text Chinese. So her daughter was out voted and now willing to lean to read Chinese.

 

Assuming your husband blocks out 2 hrs a week for French in his schedule, do you have a plan for him as in something similar to lesson plans?

 

It really is not easy to teach kids another language so don't give up. My kid's cello teacher learn Chinese as a working adult when he had to travel to China often. How multilingual is your area? If my area had been mainly monolingual, I would probably have given up short of sending my kids back home every summer for immersion.

You hit it right on the head. He isn't a conversationalist either, so it feels forced and uncomfortable. I had the boys read a story for him and then he discussed it with them. That was fun. I like the translation idea. We try to enforce "no English for two hours" rule and hope it's not filled with silence. Basically we are still experimenting.

[Arcadia]

In our case we have so many languages with native ability, but English was the only common one between us. I was a working mom with two kids who were being shuffled from babysitters to daycare providers and my husband worked all the time.

People I know who managed to make it work hired babysitters that speak the language they want their child to learn. So it was planned before their first child was born. A family friend had her mother spent the first 6 months after baby was born staying with them to help babysitting, then the child went to a bilingual infant care until 3, followed by bilingual preschool and then after school bilingual daycare from K to now (7th). It is really a lot of effort.

 

ETA:

And a lot of money too. Bilingual childcare cost more.

Edited August 31, 2016 by Arcadia

[SeaConquest]

My Quebecois husband has zero desire to teach the kids French. Even his parents have given up on it. My husband doesn't feel any of the connections to his culture that Regentrude described. I'm always the one pushing it, and without his help, I'm really just spinning my wheels. My kids are also citizens of Canada. My husband just feels that it is useless to learn French, and he doesn't want to put in the effort to speak French in an otherwise English speaking home.

[SarahW]

My wife doesn't speak Dutch. Occasionally she'll try a little. At some point she figured she'd learn it along with our kids. I started out talking to my oldest in both Dutch and English (I can't do OPOL - I'd go crazy doing only Dutch), but he turned out to have a massive speech/language/communication delay (and HFA), so I ended up doing only English hoping he'd end up speaking at least *one* language, rather than none. My wife says she wants to learn, she's even gone to NL to interview for a job, but...

 

That said, Dutch is what I'd consider a relatively useless language to learn. The main reason I'm teaching the kids is because there is a chance we might move there at some point, and that if something were to happen to us, the kids would go to my parents (and, university is cheaper there, especially if the kids want to go to med school, which I doubt they will, but w/e). But realistically, if you're just tourists in NL, everybody over about 12yo knows English as a second language, so what's the point?

 

 

I guess I am thinking beyond mere utility when it comes to my language heritage. It is intricately related to my culture. Songs, poems, fairy tales, literature all live through the language. 

It was important to me that my children grow up with the nursery rhymes, stories, folk songs, traditional children's books that constitute cultural canon for children back home. It was important to take them back, so they become familiar with the country where I grew up, develop a relationship to their extended family, feel that it has something to do with them, not just with their parents. 

They are dual citizens. They could make the choice to go live there, even temporarily. I wanted them to be equipped to have a realistic choice and to feel at home in both worlds - not just practically, but also culturally and emotionally. For me, language is tied inextricably with emotion (after my emigration to the US, I was unable to write poetry for over a decade even though I am completely fluent in all other aspects of life).

 

My DH also considers Dutch to be mostly useless in the "wider world" sense. There is also the fact that he doesn't have much of a "cultural history" in Dutch that he wants to pass down. One reason is because Dutch has changed drastically within the past century, and there's no "classic" Dutch children's literature that he wants our kids to read, even if they were able to slog through the "old" Dutch to read it. The other issue is that he is from the "hick" part of The Netherlands, and isn't keen on our kids picking up the dialect, music, or customs of a Dutch "hick." Altogether, it makes him quite ambivalent about Dutch. I point out the advantages of the Dutch universities sometimes, and he agrees, but a far-off positive of Dutch doesn't change the fact that for him English has been incredibly advantageous for him (nearly all his work is done, and written, in English, and sometimes German, almost never in Dutch) and so he feels far more positive about English. And honestly, our kid being a native English speaker has been an advantage to him, even now that we are living in NL. English just has a lot more "weight," even here.

 

Altogether, if we were not now living in NL, my kids would not become bilingual. Which does drive me a bit crazy, but eh, that's how it is.

 

Living in the country of the language is just so much easier to build fluency. When we're chilling inside at Opa and Oma's I can just turn on Nick Jr. and there are all their favorite shows - in Dutch. Easy peasy. Recreating that in America with random youtube videos or fiddling around with Dutch websites just isn't the same. Then it's a whole lot more like work, not fun, or so I'm told.  :001_rolleyes:

[Loesje22000]

More and more Dutch Universities teach in English, so I can see about not learning Dutch.

 

Backt to O.P.

Dd needs about 3 years of input before we get reasonable output.

We break our 'hour' in two parts. The first one is focused on grammar, culture and other stuff you will find in a regulat textbook for foreign language. The second part is reading (and after several years composition)

 

We were able to send dd to French Language camp this summer (= 1 week full time speaking French) and that made her more comfortable with speaking French.

When she has passed the French Exam we hope to do the same for German.

 

At home we use several games to practise conversation.

[madteaparty]

My Quebecois husband has zero desire to teach the kids French. Even his parents have given up on it. My husband doesn't feel any of the connections to his culture that Regentrude described. I'm always the one pushing it, and without his help, I'm really just spinning my wheels. My kids are also citizens of Canada. My husband just feels that it is useless to learn French, and he doesn't want to put in the effort to speak French in an otherwise English speaking home.

Wouldn't it be cheaper for them to go to college there if they spoke French? (Thought I read that but not sure).

I'm being totally mercenary here:)

[Arcadia]

I don't know about OP but there's heritages and heritages ;) I don't have any of these "problems"/ opportunities with mine ;)

I was thinking about Regentrude's question on culture over breakfast.

 

My husband has two heritage languages and English in school from preK to 12th. One is Chinese the national language of two countries, the other is the unofficial language of Hong Kong. I have three heritage language; Chinese, an unofficial language of Taiwan and my dad's language which is rare.

There is no way I can pass down sufficiently my dad's rare heritage language unless we make a trip to my paternal ancestors village in China.

 

Culture wise my grandparents and buddy's grandparents adopted the common culture in China before world war one as they left China before that. So that is our predominant family culture.

 

My kids aren't going to any Chinese university so no cost benefit there.

If they want to go to Germany or Switzerland for university, their Deutsch would benefit them. Hubby and I actually get to speak Deutsch in Bern, Switzerland.

[SeaConquest]

They don't need to speak French to go to college in Canada for cheap. They just need to be residents to get the discounted rates. So, a few months with grandma beforehand will get you there. Also, McGill and U of Toronto are English language schools, as are most of the rest of Canada's more selective schools. But, yes, cheap is good! :)

 

ETA: https://www.mcgill.ca/legaldocuments/quebec/situation8

Edited August 31, 2016 by SeaConquest

[madteaparty]

They don't need to speak French to go to college in Canada for cheap. They just need to be residents to get the discounted rates. So, a few months with grandma beforehand will get you there. Also, McGill and U of Toronto are English language schools, as are most of the rest of Canada's more selective schools. But, yes, cheap is good! :)

 

ETA: https://www.mcgill.ca/legaldocuments/quebec/situation8

 

Thanks for explaining. I could have sworn I read some place that you get the "resident" rate if you do your schooling in French.

 

I'm hoping my kids choose to go to Europe for school. Even with the non-EU rate, it is still cheaper than here. If I could find a way to get my kids into an IB program I would, but there's no chance here.

[JadeOrchidSong]

Not everyone is super invested in passing on heritage language. I certainly never taught my kids mine, and I'm with them all day :)

Unless you teach every subjects in both English and a heritage language, the heritage language usually suffers. I homeschool all subjects in English, which leaves me only some time to teach Chinese, a very hard language for reading and writing. I was unsuccessful. After five years, we gave up.

[JadeOrchidSong]

I was thinking about Regentrude's question on culture over breakfast.

 

My husband has two heritage languages and English in school from preK to 12th. One is Chinese the national language of two countries, the other is the unofficial language of Hong Kong. I have three heritage language; Chinese, an unofficial language of Taiwan and my dad's language which is rare.

There is no way I can pass down sufficiently my dad's rare heritage language unless we make a trip to my paternal ancestors village in China.

 

Culture wise my grandparents and buddy's grandparents adopted the common culture in China before world war one as they left China before that. So that is our predominant family culture.

 

My kids aren't going to any Chinese university so no cost benefit there.

If they want to go to Germany or Switzerland for university, their Deutsch would benefit them. Hubby and I actually get to speak Deutsch in Bern, Switzerland.

Even the younger generations, say, people born in early 1990s and later in China have not learned any heritage languages. I am sad to see that my 30ish old nieces only talk with their kids in Mandarin. Their kids do not know how to speak Henan, Sichuan, or you name it heritage dialects. Kids go to formal day care school at age 1 and teachers only speak Mandarin, while my teachers in 1970 and 1980s all spoke local dialects. Eventually, Mandarin will be the only langauge spoken. My older son is going to continue Latin with me and younger son started Spanishn with Sr. Gamache. I kind of wish I had gone with Homeschool Spanish Academy for the more time for oral practice with a native speaker. Sr. Gamache has 18 students in a class and it is hard to practice enough.

[luuknam]

Unless you teach every subjects in both English and a heritage language, the heritage language usually suffers. I homeschool all subjects in English, which leaves me only some time to teach Chinese, a very hard language for reading and writing. I was unsuccessful. After five years, we gave up.

 

You don't have to do every subject in both language. I went to bilingual secondary school for two years, and they only did about half the subjects in English (and half in Dutch, my native language). Even doing only 1/4 of subjects in the heritage language would probably be plenty, if continued over years.

[Arcadia]

We went to Half Price Bookstore (used bookstore) and ended up buying a german workbook and a chinese textbook. Both in pristine condition. Hubby said some people must have gave up. The german one was sold to the bookstore on 31st March, the chinese one was sold on 24th August.

 

We also ended up getting LOTR six book in one edition for $1, and Romeo and Juliet Oxford World Classic edition for $1 :)

 

Even the younger generations, say, people born in early 1990s and later in China have not learned any heritage languages. I am sad to see that my 30ish old nieces only talk with their kids in Mandarin. Their kids do not know how to speak Henan, Sichuan, or you name it heritage dialects

I know two local 9th graders (chinese friends' kids) so far that switched to Spanish for high school after learning chinese in weekly class since K.

 

I do think it is a waste they didn't take the SAT chinese and just see how they score.

 

OT, my MIL do think cantonese is superior to other heritage dialects :P My shanghainess friends think the same of their own dialects. My kids get to hear hokkien and cantonese as hubby and I can converse in each other's heritage dialect. We did not teach them our dialects because we don't have anyone for them to speak dialects to regularly. The cantonese cashiers at 99Ranch supermarket can understand chinese so even my hubby speak chinese to them.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

To the OP's original question:

 

We are teaching German as a foreign language.  The kids are bilingual English/French due to OPOL and living in a French speaking country.  It is very important that the kids become something close to fluent in German.  Because Switzerland is 2/3rds German speaking, it is a very big employment boost to be able to speak the two big (German and French) languages plus English.  

 

We started German when we were legally required to do so, which corresponds to US 3rd grade.  I would not have started this early of my own volition.  Anyway...

 

4th grader, daily:

1 new and 2 review lessons on DuoLingo

1 workbook exercise from a local German review book

1 30 minute lesson with daddy using Planetino curriculum plus written exercises (daily) and dictations (1-3x week)

PLUS...

weekly:

2 x 30 minute lessons with native speaker tutor (She does most of the "fun" stuff- play acting, dialogues, card games, etc.)

1 x longer written exercise

1-2 30 minute cartoons in German

 

2nd grader:

DD doesn't technically need to start German yet, but it seems silly to not take advantage of the tutor.  So DD has, daily, 1 new and 1 review lesson on DuoLingo, plus she sits in on the tutoring sessions.  I will probably add in a workbook for her as well.  When she officially starts German next year, we'll start her at the beginning of the book, but I think she'll fly through it.  

 

4yo:

Little Pim, several times a week

 

 

So this works out to between 1-1.5 hours per day of German for the fourth grader.  Frankly, it is a lot.  I am looking forward to the day when we can be a bit more hands-off with this, as it is a huge time suck.  I don't speak any German at all, so the burden falls on DH, but still.  

 

 

 

Regarding OPOL:

We do this, and it works well for us.  However, DH's English is pretty good, and my French is fluent, so no one really feels "left out", which can be a big deal in bilingual families.  Additionally, because the balance was starting to swing heavily towards English, we've now modified to OPOL except once daddy is home, if we're in a family setting (dinner table, etc) we all speak French, including me.  

 

Is it that your husband doesn't want to SPEAK French to the kids, or that he doesn't want to TEACH French to the kids?  Maybe if he could speak it, but not have to teach, correct, etc, he would be more willing?  

 

I know a family here where the dad speaks to his kids in German, and they respond to him in English (which he's fluent in).  The mom speaks English, and the kids learn French at school.  Even though their German is only passive, I'm sure it will be a big help to them in their German learning down the road.  

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

I want to add that I don't have any fantasy of the kids becoming fluent in German through books.  The only way to get there will be to have them study abroad in Germany, or do home exchanges or similar over summers.

 

 Why abroad?  Because even though all Swiss Germans speak German-German, Swiss German is an almost totally different language, and knowing the Swiss German dialect is not nearly as helpful as knowing German-German!   :cursing:   :scared:  :banghead: .  In an ideal world, the kids would learn both high German and Swiss German, but that makes me  :svengo:

[StillStanding]

Going back to the original question:

 

I do strongly believe that the only way to become fluent in a language is to spend time surrounded by people who speak the language. If you have a parent who can, and is willing, to speak the target language at home that is great. Otherwise find a way to spend time with people who speak the language.

 

I have a friend who learned Spanish in school (including taking courses in college), visited Spain for three months, and then started volunteering at an outreach clinic that works with Hispanics and now she is fluent. 

 

I am tri-lingual.I would not say languages come easily to me.I didn't really have to do anything to acquire my first two languages as I was born in a part of Spain that is bilingual (Catalan/Spanish).  English is my third language and I started learning it in the 7th grade with a nonnative English speaker teacher; graduating with an Irish teacher. I could read and write in English pretty fluently but it took coming to America to become fluent.I still speak with an accent and I am pretty sure it is not going anywhere as it has not disappeared in the 23 years I have lived here.

 

I don't speak Spanish or Catalan to my children now. I did try Catalan with my oldest but soon gave up (I had to work and the child was going to daycare and actually refused to speak to me in Catalan). My family of origin wishes I had taught my children Catalan as that is the language they use at home in their daily lives. I don't know how useful it would be to know Catalan and not Spanish besides the brain exercise. 

 

My husband doesn't speak Spanish and was also opposed to me speaking a "foreign language" to our children as he felt left out. I provably should have put my foot down and persevere but I didn't have the energy to fight everybody; and here we are today with my children learning Spanish as a "foreign language."

 

They are doing well but are not fluent.

 

I can relate to those parents who have not shared their "native tongues" with their children. I homeschool and work par-time (teach classes to other homeschoolers). I conduct my daily life in English. I speak Catalan on the phone with my family of origin twice a month. I just do the best I can.

 

 

[regentrude]

Unless you teach every subjects in both English and a heritage language, the heritage language usually suffers. 

 

yes, that is true. I did not achieve my dream of a symmetric bilinguality (as EsterMaria would call it, who actually managed to do this!) because I did not put enough effort into symmetric teaching of content subjects. So even though my kids are fluent in German for everyday purposes, they are lacking the vocabulary to discuss technical subjects and, for DS, the writing skills to write at the same level as their same age peers of similar educational level. DD managed the latter.

It would have been doable, I just was not disciplined enough.

[JadeOrchidSong]

yes, that is true. I did not achieve my dream of a symmetric bilinguality (as EsterMaria would call it, who actually managed to do this!) because I did not put enough effort into symmetric teaching of content subjects. So even though my kids are fluent in German for everyday purposes, they are lacking the vocabulary to discuss technical subjects and, for DS, the writing skills to write at the same level as their same age peers of similar educational level. DD managed the latter.

It would have been doable, I just was not disciplined enough.

It takes lots of very hard work on parents and dc. Burnout also happens easily. My boys and I were both burned out.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

In our family, strangely enough, English I suppose is the "heritage" language.  Even though I don't quite feel like it, I am a permanent immigrant to Switzerland and French is the local language.  It is hard work to manage two languages and maintain fluency, that's for sure!  

 

Things we do to maintain dual fluency:

- comparative grammar- all our grammar is taught in relation to the other language.  Early on, I teach very basic English grammar- parts of speech and similar.  Then, I teach French grammar, but refer often to English concepts while doing it.  It is actually way easier to teach two grammars at once, because it makes the concepts somehow easier to understand.  Go figure.  

 

- Dual language content- We have historical fiction in both languages, science texts in both languages, history texts in both languages...  It seems like a lot, but I don't think it's any different than many parents on this board who are using, for example, SOTW plus read-alouds and a history encyclopedia.  Well, we use SOTW, a French history encyclopedia and a mix of picture books and hist-fic form both languages.  I don't attempt to have a picture book for each topic in both languages, but I have enough in both that over the course of a year, both languages get worked pretty thoroughly.  Similar story for science.  

 

I do as much as I can to not actually increase the *volume* of work.  There is a bit more- we must do two separate spelling curricula because my kids are terrible spellers in both languages, but otherwise, I simply use a mix of resources or sort of rotate (ex. I assign writing in French/English on alternate days, or have them write in the language the book they are narrating from was written in, so that they can refer to it for spelling help)

 

It helps enormously that the "heritage language" is English, because obviously there is a TON of homeschool resources in English.  For our French work, I'm almost entirely obligated to modify classroom materials.

 

I think if you wanted to just give a push to content vocabulary, without having to spend a fortune or work too hard at it, I'd look for subject-specific encyclopedias and try to align them with your usual studies.  Have the kid learn first in strongest language, then read and perhaps outline or spoken/written narration of the second-language encyclopedia entry, or maybe make an illustrated vocab list.