Obedience as a virtue

[maize]

Just something I'm musing on this morning.

 

I remember taking a test once where you had to rank a list of values to teach children from most to least important--it was supposed to identify which culture your parenting was most in line with. I don't remember what all the virtues were, but obedience was one of them--and on my list it fell very near the bottom. I mentioned this to a group of homechooling moms--mostly Protestant Christians--and they were shocked. 

 

Do you consider obedience to be a major virtue? If so, obedience to who/what? Is obedience more important for children than for adults?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ravin]

I don't consider obedience to be a virtue at all. Even in the military, blind obedience wasn't an expectation. Trust and loyalty, and an understanding that there are times for asking questions and times when you need to shut up and follow orders--but not obedience for its own sake, but because there was a hierarchy and the people higher in it had more information and tools for making decisions than the folks at the bottom of the hierarchy. And obedience was not a substitute for situational awareness.

 

We expect our kids to do as they are told because as parents it is our job to teach them and keep them safe, and most rules we have for them are to those ends and have underlying reasons--you have to go to bed because you need to get enough sleep to be healthy, not just because I told you so. Etc. etc.

 

I encourage asking questions and try very hard not to resort to "because I said so" as my only reason for something. 

 

 

[Lady Florida.]

Nope.

[Pawz4me]

I suspect a lot depends on how one defines obedience.

 

Having the critical thinking skills (or discernment, if you prefer that term) to know when to obey and when to think for oneself is something I very much admire, and what I tried to teach the boys.

 

Blind obedience across the board in any situation isn't something I see as virtuous at all.

[FriedClams]

I think obedience in young kids is hugely important. When I say "stop" to a three year old it's not mindless brainwashing, it's "don't touch the hot stove...run into the street...poke your sister's eye out" kind of stuff. But, imho, a three year old get the stop first, explanation later.

 

I also think it's an important first step to humility. When we obey parents as children, we learn to put our opinions away for and do what's asked. While others may disagree, I think that's an important trait for life. It's critical to employment, obeying laws, submitting to public authority (flight attendants, ushers, etc.). It's crucial to learning (and why we as classical educators start with rote and move up to debate and opinions later). I think not being too wise in oneself and listening to others can start with healthy obedience.

 

Now, I'm not talking wacky stuff, brain washing, or the crazy connotations "obedience" can have here in parental debates. But, to eschew "obedience" because people have abused it is wrong to me. I have wonderful, thoughtful, healthy relationships with my teens who were taught to obey as toddlers. Now that they're older, it's the time to discuss first, and then obey (curfew, clothing, driving rules, who hangs out at my house when I'm gone, etc.).

 

And fwiw, I love the whole idea of civil disobedience when necessary. I'm good with debate and open to changing ideas. But I don't think obedience is evil or unkind if your motives are right.

Edited August 29, 2016 by FriedClams

[SparklyUnicorn]

The term obedience makes me bristle. 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

I think obedience in young kids is hugely important. When I say "stop" to a three year old it's not mindless brainwashing, it's "don't touch the hot stove...run into the street...poke your sister's eye out" kind of stuff. But, imho, a three year old get the stop first, explanation later.

 

I also think it's an important first step to humility. When we obey parents as children, we learn to put our opinions away for and do what's asked. While others may disagree, I think that's an important trait for life. It's critical to employment, obeying laws, submitting to public authority (flight attendants, ushers, etc.). It's crucial to learning (and why we as classical educators start with rote and move up to debate and opinions later). I think not being too wise in oneself and listening to others can start with healthy obedience.

 

Now, I'm not talking wacky stuff, brain washing, or the crazy connotations "obedience" can have here in parental debates. But, to eschew "obedience" because people have abused it is wrong to me. I have wonderful, thoughtful, healthy relationships with my teens who were taught to obey as toddlers. Now that they're older, it's the time to discuss first, and then obey (curfew, clothing, driving rules, who hangs out at my house when I'm gone, etc.).

 

And fwiw, I love the whole idea of civil disobedience when necessary. I'm good with debate and open to changing ideas. But I don't think obedience is evil or unkind if your motives are right.

 

The bolded is an example of why I have such a difficult time with these types of discussions. What you describe as humility I would describe as critical thinking skills -- having the ability to understand that a flight attendant knows more about how things should be done on a plane than I do, that following an usher's directions makes sense in terms of allowing an event to proceed as planned or that following directions in the work place is the best way to continue to be employed, etc. I don't "see" humility in those things anywhere, but I can kinda sorta understand why someone else would.  For me using less loaded terms than obedience or humility works better.

[Guest]

Not important at all. And I've managed to keep 5 kids from ever running into the street or touching fire.

[Guest]

The term obedience makes me bristle.

 

  

I think obedience in young kids is hugely important. When I say "stop" to a three year old it's not mindless brainwashing, it's "don't touch the hot stove...run into the street...poke your sister's eye out" kind of stuff. But, imho, a three year old get the stop first, explanation later.

I also think it's an important first step to humility. When we obey parents as children, we learn to put our opinions away for and do what's asked. While others may disagree, I think that's an important trait for life. It's critical to employment, obeying laws, submitting to public authority (flight attendants, ushers, etc.). It's crucial to learning (and why we as classical educators start with rote and move up to debate and opinions later). I think not being too wise in oneself and listening to others can start with healthy obedience.

Now, I'm not talking wacky stuff, brain washing, or the crazy connotations "obedience" can have here in parental debates. But, to eschew "obedience" because people have abused it is wrong to me. I have wonderful, thoughtful, healthy relationships with my teens who were taught to obey as toddlers. Now that they're older, it's the time to discuss first, and then obey (curfew, clothing, driving rules, who hangs out at my house when I'm gone, etc.).

And fwiw, I love the whole idea of civil disobedience when necessary. I'm good with debate and open to changing ideas. But I don't think obedience is evil or unkind if your motives are right.

  

I suspect a lot depends on how one defines obedience.

 

Having the critical thinking skills (or discernment, if you prefer that term) to know when to obey and when to think for oneself is something I very much admire, and what I tried to teach the boys.

 

Blind obedience across the board in any situation isn't something I see as virtuous at all.

I agree with all of this.

 

Blind obedience is creepy to want, and unhealthy to have.

 

But as parents, there's no sense in throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

And discernment is ultimately the MORE important trait.

[Guest]

On a related note, a local church is doing a parenting series. The sign said "there are no rebellious teens, only toddlers who were never taught to obey". I wonder, at what point are a person's faults NOT because of their upbringing? If my 35yo son robs a bank, is it because I never spanked him??

[Guest]

Not important at all. And I've managed to keep 5 kids from ever running into the street or touching fire.

Yes, but if you have a child just hell bent on sticking his hand in a fire, at a certain point it gets to where you just NEED this child to obey the rule of not sticking his flipping hands in the fire, until he's old enough to figure it out.

 

I have a kid like that. It's not an option to not expect obedience from him. Not if I am to keep him safe. Just telling him doesn't work. He doesn't believe me yet.

 

I say this only to stress where I think conversations about obedience go sideways. Obedience is often just common sense and good parenting in action. And then too, one person is talking about a foot year old, another about a thirteen year old, and they both think the other is crazy.

[Guest]

On a related note, a local church is doing a parenting series. The sign said "there are no rebellious teens, only toddlers who were never taught to obey". I wonder, at what point are a person's faults NOT because of their upbringing? If my 35yo son robs a bank, is it because I never spanked him??

Lol but that the world were so simple. I know SO MANY hyper-obedience-obsessed toddler parents that ended up with crazy cake rebellious teens.

[38carrots]

Nope. Not a virtue.

[gardenmom5]

On a related note, a local church is doing a parenting series. The sign said "there are no rebellious teens, only toddlers who were never taught to obey". I wonder, at what point are a person's faults NOT because of their upbringing? If my 35yo son robs a bank, is it because I never spanked him??

Yes. And if you did spank, then you didn't spank enough.

Those attitudes are whacked.

[wendy not in HI]

I don't really think of it as a virtue, but my children really are basically obedient.  So, obedience isn't really a big deal to me because it is sort of a given with my kids.  Not some kind of creepy blind obedience, but when my kids were younger I could let them roam away from me, and when I called them, they would come back - easy peasy.  As they are older, i trust them to be where they say they are going to be, doing what they say they are doing, etc.  Maybe obedience isn't the right word - obedience brings to mind dogs... Maybe the word is trustworthy or aware or kind?  

 

Long ago, I did some babysitting with kids who had no concept of "obedience" and it was really scary.  When a three year old runs away from you and will not come back when called, it can be really dangerous.  I would play the "come here" game with one little boy.  We practiced in my house, where he would come really fast when I called him, and I would give him a treat and/or lots of praise.  Then we worked our way up to doing the same game outside.  And eventually, I could trust him to come running to me if I called him - where before he would run away from me into the cul de sac where we lived and wanted me to chase him - it was a fun game to him.  (this sounds like puppy training - and maybe that's what I was doing, i don't know.  But I knew I needed to do something so we could walk to the park together without anyone running into the road or away at the park) Seems like a simple concept, but it took a good month to get him to a point where we could go outside safely.

 

I felt like his parents had no idea how to be his leader and teach him basic life skills.  Every day was a struggle for them to get out the door and in his car seat. He would run away and scream and twist and hit and just be generally out of control.  Every single day.   I'm not sure if it was parenting differences, or kid differences, but those are not struggles I had with my own kids.  

 

Were my kids born obedient or did I teach them little by little from the time they were babies to listen to me?  

 

I also remember one instance from when my kids were little ones.  We were at the library, and my cousin was with us (she was living with us for the summer).  As we left the library, I had my hands full with books and baby, and my 4 year old daughter ran away from me toward the road. (apparently my kids were not always obedient ;) I yelled her name sharply and she stopped.  My cousin said "wow!  I have never heard you yell at your kids until now, but when you yelled, she really listened!"  She mentioned that her sister was a yeller and her kids seemed to tune her out.  It made me think about myself any my parenting style and agree that I did save my "yelling" for important things like fire or escaped toddlers.  

 

I am personally a rule follower and I like Gretchen Rubin's 4 types of people that she discusses in her Habits book - the four tendencies.  I think it helps to explain my husband who is a little bit of a rebel...

[MercyA]

Do you consider obedience to be a major virtue? If so, obedience to who/what? Is obedience more important for children than for adults?

 

Yes, as a theologically conservative Christian I believe obedience is an important virtue.

 

I believe children should obey their parents, unless their parents ask them to violate their conscience or Scripture:

• "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right." Ephesians 6:1
• "Children, be obedient to your parents in all things, for this is well-pleasing to the Lord." Colossians 3:20

I also strive to obey my husband based on Ephesians 5 and 1 Peter 3. (I don't have the time or inclination for debate about this today. ;) )

 

I believe Christians must obey Christ:

• "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." John 14:15
• "...Having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation..." Hebrews 5:9

Obeying God may mean disobeying civil authorities:

• "But Peter and the apostles answered, 'We must obey God rather than men.'" Acts 5:29
• "But the midwives feared God, and did not do as the king of Egypt had commanded them, but let the boys live." Exodus 1:17

I could have avoided the majority of grief in my life if I had placed a higher priority on simple obedience.

Edited August 29, 2016 by MercyA

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm starting to believe more and more than it's a personality thing with some people.  Some people are compliant and listen.  Some people don't so easily.  I haven't done anything special in the parenting department and my kids generally listen to me and generally do not give me a hard time.  I know some parents who have tried everything and then some and have kids who give them a hard time.  So maybe we don't have as much control over these things as we think we do.

 

 

[goldberry]

I agree definitions are complicated.

 

FriedClams connected it with humility, and I agree with that, because I see humility as an awareness of our own limitations.  I will obey authority figures in certain situations, because I am aware that there are people who know more than I do about those situations.  That doesn't mean I abdicate all responsibility or critical thinking skills though.

 

As a Christian, I see importance in obeying God.  But only because I have gone through the reasoning process and believe that God is someone who should be obeyed, and that I can trust God with my obedience not to ask anything of me that would harm me.  The reasoning process came first.

 

With children, I think, it has to be a combo.  At some level, yes, you want them to obey you when you say get out of the street, but if you don't address the reasoning process (why to stay out of the street, also why they should trust you to obey you) then you are really asking for blind obedience which is destructive, short term, and not healthy.  

 

I don't personally have a negative connotation for obedience, because I have always associated it with the reasoning process, and also that all obedience except to God is subjective, including obedience to parents, husbands, authority figures.  It is subject to both moral constraints and to critical reasoning.  We should never harm ourselves or others under the blanket of obedience.  Ever. 

[Pam in CT]

I think this is one of those words that mean rather different things to different people.

 

How I personally think of "obedience" wrt a three year old running into the street is pretty wholly different than I do wrt my 17 yo son, whose job it is developmentally to separate from us and learn to make his own way in this world.

 

(However exasperating it is, that my Superior Wisdom and Life Experience is not as self-evident to him as it is to me.  And, it is exasperating.)

 

And obedience in a context like the military is yet a third thing.

 

And in a context like Jim Crow laws yet another.

 

 

I believe discernment to be an across-the-board virtue; and I also believe restraint to be an across-the-board virtue.  Those are a little harder to define, but I personally value them higher than "obedience" framed strictly in power terms, something like "obedience = doing what someone in a position of greater power / higher authority tells you to do."

 

But I don't think even on this thread that's how everyone thinks of the term.

[Guest]

Obedience is definitely important to me in children. And as an adult it is critical in my walk as a Christian that I am obedient to God as an act of worship.

 

That said, discernment and wisdom in when to obey and when to take a stand, however difficult, is the mature form of obedience I want to grow in my children, along with respect, love, kindness, and logic/critical thinking. I rank these all as almost equally important at various stages and aspects of life.

 

But in my littles? Obedience is the first thing I teach in conjunction with love and basic life skills. It is important foundationally for how our family functions but I wouldn't say it gets harped on or overemphasized, except maybe in discussions of how older children are not being diligent in their tasks or obeying God's commands in loving one another, etc.

 

Context is important and I think obedience, like submission, can be really weirdly skewed in some people's minds and then we just talk past one another for lack of a common definition.

[DesertBlossom]

I find this conversation really thought provoking. I do agree that I want my kids to think critically and not just blindly obey. They need to understand the why behind things. But what if I explain the why and they just don't care? I have generally awesome kids, but one of my biggest gripes right now is that my kids are constantly taking food into the carpeted family room. It's a huge no. And they do it ALL THE TIME if they think they can get away with it. I catch them daily running out and back into the kitchen when they hear me coming. And I've explained the why. Accidents happen and I don't want it happening on my carpet where it's harder to clean up. And yet, they do it anyway.

 

I know some conversation should follow about what consequences my kids get when they do it. But darn it, sometimes "because I asked you not to" should be enough."

[wintermom]

Well, if this is a generally accepted definition of obedience, then I think it's important to teach this to our children:

 

"compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority."

 

Imagine a world where no one chose to obey laws, teachers, bosses, judges, officials, etc. It would be very difficult to function and be safe in our daily lives.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Well, if this is a generally accepted definition of obedience, then I think it's important to teach this to our children:

 

"compliance with an order, request, or law or submission to another's authority."

 

Imagine a world where no one chose to obey laws, teachers, bosses, judges, officials, etc. It would be very difficult to function and be safe in our daily lives.

 

Yes of course.  I still think the term obedience is used to talk about stuff like training dogs.  I don't train my kids like dogs. 

[wintermom]

Yes of course.  I still think the term obedience is used to talk about stuff like training dogs.  I don't train my kids like dogs. 

 

Why not? Positive reinforcement, repetition to reinforce learning, simple commands and rewards are highly effective. 

[SKL]

I don't really think too much about obedience one way or the other.  It's really convenient for me when my kids are obedient, sure.  I do occasionally call them on disobedience, mainly to make them think about why they are being that way.  Usually when they are just being hardheaded for no apparent reason.

 

I figure childhood is fleeting and obedience to parents is very temporary anyway.  I'd much rather they understood why it's better to do xyz so they would choose that for themselves.

 

As for obedience to God, I feel that is a personal matter between the self and God, and young kids are too immature to really understand what it means.  While I expose my kids to religion all day long, I do not consider myself to be the boss of their relationship with God.  My parents sure aren't the boss of mine.

 

Respect is a much bigger deal to me than obedience.

 

FTR when my kids were tiny, one of them was far more obedient than the other one.  Not because of anything I did, she just felt better knowing what was supposed to be done and doing it.  Fast forward several years, the "obedient" one is the one who has had run-ins with the behavior police (at school mainly).  She's the one I worry about when it comes to drugs etc.  My stubborn kid is the one everyone sees as miss perfect.  So yeah, obedience may be overrated.

[Lady Florida.]

Yes, but if you have a child just hell bent on sticking his hand in a fire, at a certain point it gets to where you just NEED this child to obey the rule of not sticking his flipping hands in the fire, until he's old enough to figure it out.

 

I have a kid like that. It's not an option to not expect obedience from him. Not if I am to keep him safe. Just telling him doesn't work. He doesn't believe me yet.

 

I say this only to stress where I think conversations about obedience go sideways. Obedience is often just common sense and good parenting in action. And then too, one person is talking about a foot year old, another about a thirteen year old, and they both think the other is crazy.

 

I have that kid too, and often there's an underlying reason why they're hell bent on finding things out for themselves. In my son's case it's ADHD, but there can be other things going on as well. (And btw, simply demanding obedience from a kid with ADHD is one of the worst ways to try and teach such kids.)

 

Of course our kids need to be able to know when not to run out into the street or touch the hot stove. The question maize asked though, was whether or not we think obedience is a virtue. My answer is no.

 

From Oxford dictionary

 

Virtue - noun

 

1. Behavior showing high moral standards

1.1 A quality considered morally good or desirable in a person.

 

Merriam Webster's definition is similar. 

 

I do not consider obedience to be a virtue.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Lady Florida.

[Pawz4me]

Yes of course.  I still think the term obedience is used to talk about stuff like training dogs.  I don't train my kids like dogs. 

 

 

Why not? Positive reinforcement, repetition to reinforce learning, simple commands and rewards are highly effective. 

 

Yes! I used many of the same techniques training my kids as I do dogs.

[regentrude]

I do not consider obedience a general virtue.

I have grown up in a totalitarian regime. Obedience would never have led to its fall.

The USA would not exist, had the colonists been obedient to the authority of the king.

Some of the bravest women and men in history were those who showed disobedience in the face of injustice and tyranny, and often paid with their lives.

 

No, I do not consider obedience a virtue, in almost all circumstances. My goal is to raise children who are critical thinkers. 

 

I included an "almost", because there are a few situations where unquestioning obedience is absolutely necessary for safety. When we are climbing and mountaineering with our children, it was essential that they would obey any command immediately without questioning or discussing. They knew that this was an exception to our otherwise relaxed parenting where they could question and argue and expect explanations. They knew that, in the mountains, there was no time for that and that the command of the leader must be obeyed for safety. Since this was an exceptional situation, we never had any difficulties getting them to obey.

Another similar situation was learning to drive. We made it clear that the learner had to obey any command by the adult driving instructor immediately - any discussion had to be postponed until the unsafe situation was resolved.

 

 

ETA: The idea that a wife should be obedient to her husband makes me gag.

Edited August 29, 2016 by regentrude

[SparklyUnicorn]

Why not? Positive reinforcement, repetition to reinforce learning, simple commands and rewards are highly effective. 

 

No I really have never treated my kids in this way.  I think it is way more complicated than that.

[Guest]

I have that kid too, and often there's an underlying reason why they're hell bent on finding things out for themselves. In my son's case it's ADHD, but there can be other things going on as well. (And btw, simply demanding obedience from a kid with ADHD is one of the worst ways to try and teach such kids.)

 

Of course our kids need to be able to know when not to run out into the street or touch the hot stove. The question maize asked though, was whether or not we think obedience is a virtue. My answer is no.

 

From Oxford dictionary

 

Virtue - noun

 

1. Behavior showing high moral standards

1.1 A quality considered morally good or desirable in a person.

 

Merriam Webster's definition is similar.

 

I do not consider obedience to be a virtue.

Okie dokie

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes! I used many of the same techniques training my kids as I do dogs.

 

What did you train them to do?

[HomeAgain]

I think of obedience as a result.  It's the end game.  Several virtues may come into play, but it's not a virtue itself.

[Joshin]

Regentrude pretty much summed up my feelings on obedience. I often see it as the opposite of a virtue. Even as young as two or three my kids understood basic reason, and it only took a few words to explain why an adult needed to be listened to. Perhaps my kids were advanced, but I doubt it! One is a natural rules and order type, while the other is definitely more rebellious (but oddly easier to reason with because he isn't as tied to rules).

 

Of course, I have older kids and we have made it clear that they are free to make most of their own decisions, but they will also have to reap the consequences. This has lead to a teen and a preteen that research, discuss, and tend to make careful and non-rash decisions -- much better than obedience. My teen isn't expected to ask permission to do things. He may ask if we have family plans or if I need him around the house before making plans with friends, and we do ask that he lets us know where and when he is going somewhere. But we have a more important virtue -- trust -- so we know he will make the right choices 99% of the time. (And it played out this summer actually where we learned our trust was very founded in fact, after we received a call when he was the only one out of a group of peers that made the right and honest decision during a situation that was turning illegal :) )

 

Critical thinking and common sense -- those are much more important to me.

[Ravin]

Several people have pointed out how necessary it can be for little children to be obedient, largely for their safety when they are too young to discern why.

 

I would categorize that sort of obedience as a practical necessity, not a virtue.

[Pawz4me]

What did you train them to do?

 

Ummm . . . pretty much everything a parent typically teaches a child? Like potty training and (eventually) taking care of all their personal care, eating in a civilized fashion, how to do things around the house, manage finances, etc.

 

Showing a kid (or a dog) what you want them to do and then lots of positive reinforcement and praise for getting it right has always worked well for us.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Ummm . . . pretty much everything a parent typically teaches a child? Like potty training and (eventually) taking care of all their personal care, eating in a civilized fashion, how to do things around the house, manage finances, etc.

 

Showing a kid (or a dog) what you want them to do and then lots of positive reinforcement and praise for getting it right has always worked well for us.

 

I don't see any of those as being "obedience," more like how to be a human being. 

 

I can't see obedience as a virtue, personally. I have always been obedient just as part of my personality. And growing up, teachers loved me! I was always too afraid to rock the boat and to question what people told me. I finally got some critical thinking skills in grad school, but I still feel like a doormat. I wish I wasn't so afraid of speaking up. I wish I got in a little bit of trouble as a kid so I wouldn't be so afraid of making mistakes now. I would have learned there are worse things than someone being mad at you for 5 minutes. I am trying to teach my kids how to politely question authority when something doesn't seem quite right. I feel like that's a much more robust tool than teaching kids it's always best to just do what you're told. 

[EmseB]

Obedience is not in and of itself a virtue.

 

Obedience to something can be a virtue or a vice. Obeying my desire to sit on my phone in bed all day because I don't feel well is not virtuous. Overcoming that desire to obey what I consider to be moral imperatives (in whatever form that comes for people) is a virtue, IMO. I do understand many people don't frame it this way.

[Reefgazer]

I actually think obedience is the exact opposite of a virtue; I admire people who question and challenge. I think there's a difference between obedience and self-control; many people mistake the two .

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ummm . . . pretty much everything a parent typically teaches a child? Like potty training and (eventually) taking care of all their personal care, eating in a civilized fashion, how to do things around the house, manage finances, etc.

 

Showing a kid (or a dog) what you want them to do and then lots of positive reinforcement and praise for getting it right has always worked well for us.

 

Ok, but this is just general living, teaching, modeling, etc. in my mind.  This isn't some sort of systematic here is an M&M because you flushed the toilet on your own.  Here is another M&M because you used a fork properly.  How is this like training a dog? 

[enchantedhome]

My kids generally listen and obey. They pretty much always have. But I NEVER went down that "first time obedience and with a cheerful smile on your face" route that I think is common in Protestant circles. I have a friend who "trains" (she uses that word) her babies to instant obedience beginning at age one. It's….creepy. That's all I can say.

 

Obedience is important to me, yes, but I'm not a dictator, and it's not a virtue. As a Catholic, I'd define virtues classically, as in cardinal virtues and theological virtues. Obedience isn't one of them :)

[Guest]

No. If it appeared on a list of things I want my child to be, it would be near the bottom, but "Adaptable" would be near the top. I am a much bigger fan of kids who can asses what is needed in a given situation and act on that wisely than look helplessly about for who is the relevant "Authority" in a given situation.

 

P.S. The Christian sect I grew up around *Did* place a high priority on "Obedience" because they are very invested in the heirarchical system.

[Pawz4me]

I don't see any of those as being "obedience," more like how to be a human being. 

 

I can't see obedience as a virtue, personally. I have always been obedient just as part of my personality. And growing up, teachers loved me! I was always too afraid to rock the boat and to question what people told me. I finally got some critical thinking skills in grad school, but I still feel like a doormat. I wish I wasn't so afraid of speaking up. I wish I got in a little bit of trouble as a kid so I wouldn't be so afraid of making mistakes now. I would have learned there are worse things than someone being mad at you for 5 minutes. I am trying to teach my kids how to politely question authority when something doesn't seem quite right. I feel like that's a much more robust tool than teaching kids it's always best to just do what you're told. 

 

Those aren't about obedience. They're about how training dogs and kids can be similar.

 

Ok, but this is just general living, teaching, modeling, etc. in my mind.  This isn't some sort of systematic here is an M&M because you flushed the toilet on your own.  Here is another M&M because you used a fork properly.  How is this like training a dog? 

 

I think training a dog is maybe a bit more complicated than you believe. ;)

 

ETA: In most instances I don't really want blind, unquestioning obedience from a dog any more than I do from a kid. Instead I want them to learn the "why" of things so that they want to do what they should for reasons that are valid to them. The exception to that with dogs are the potentially life saving commands of "stop" and "leave it."

Edited August 29, 2016 by Pawz4me

[umsami]

I remember getting this thing for the older kids about "The Land of Obey".  They would move a space whenever they obeyed.  It had this cute song and strangely the kids still talk about it and how much they liked it.  They were never very good at instant obedience, though.

 

In our house, in some ways, I am a benevolent dictator. I do know more.  There are chores and such that they need to do as part of the family.  So in that regard, yes, I do want them to obey me.  Usually the expectations are laid out....and they know that they have until 8 p.m. at night or whenever to complete something (big time zone).  They also know they can ask for help.  But yes, I do expect them to obey me.  I will talk about why I am imposing certain restrictions (like no Internet after 10 pm), but in the end, yes, some things are my decision to make.

[wendyroo]

Ok, but this is just general living, teaching, modeling, etc. in my mind.  This isn't some sort of systematic here is an M&M because you flushed the toilet on your own.  Here is another M&M because you used a fork properly.  How is this like training a dog? 

 

I have an "high functioning" autistic child and it is almost exactly like that.  He is 7 and a half years old and we are still rewarding for every time he manages to close a door behind himself, every meal he appropriately uses silverware, every walk he doesn't mindlessly wander into the road, every 10 minutes of play time during which he doesn't hit a sibling.  If we could afford ABA therapy then they would come and apply even more structure and positive behavior modification.

 

Some kids require extensive training just to get through day to day life.

 

Wendy

[EmseB]

I actually think obedience is the exact opposite of a virtue; I admire people who question and challenge. I think there's a difference between obedience and self-control; many people mistake the two .

I think self-control is a mechanism necessary for obedience, but I agree they are not the same thing.

[SparklyUnicorn]

 

 

 

I think training a dog is maybe a bit more complicated than you believe. ;)

 

 

 

I believe it! 

 

I wish I could figure out how to train my cats to use the toilet.  That would be cool.  Although one of them likes to drink out of the toilet so...LOL  

[wintermom]

No I really have never treated my kids in this way.  I think it is way more complicated than that.

 

I think people, often mothers because dads don't explain every little thing as much as women tend to do, make things more complicated when they don't always have to be. Humans are animals. We respond to a lot of stimuli similarly to animals, and don't always have to have long explanations about every little thing we do or avoid doing. There is a time for a quick command and expecting action, and a time for a softer sell. Just ask a manager in a store which employee she/he prefers; the one who needs to be talked into doing something with a long explanation, or the one who can do what is asked quickly and effectively. 

[shawthorne44]

Not even a virtue.  I think teaching obedience teaches the kid to be a follower.  So, later when some 'friend' at a party says "here swallow this pill,   It will be fun."   The obedient kid will do it.  

 

We teach that there is a certain urgent tone that needs to be obeyed and we will explain the reason later.  So, "No" and "Stop" in that tone need to be obeyed instantly.   But, other things need to be done or not done  for a reason.  Sometimes that reason is to keep mommy or daddy from getting grumpy with you.  

 

[Tanaqui]

Obedience is certainly convenient for parents and pet-owners and the government and all. It certainly is nice to be able to say "Sally, don't run in the street" or "Fido! Sit!" or "According to Rule A, paragraph 3 you owe $523.74 in back taxes, to be paid up...." and then get results.

 

That doesn't mean it's something I particularly encourage in human children. When the girls were in street-running age, I held their hands or put them up in the carrier - I certainly wasn't going to trust their lives to my ideal of obedience! This definitely made my life harder in the short term, but I think that the end result of not obeying "authority" unquestioningly is probably a net benefit.

 

And this push for obedience is really a lot of pressure on the parents to always know the right path. Think of this Calvin and Hobbes strip. Against all odds she got obedience - but this one time, I bet she really would have preferred independent thinking.

 

Edit: Not, of course, that I want unquestioning disobedience either, of course. I want to be able to interact with other human beings on a rational basis, and that's gotta start at home.

Edited August 29, 2016 by Tanaqui

[EmseB]

Not even a virtue. I think teaching obedience teaches the kid to be a follower. So, later when some 'friend' at a party says "here swallow this pill, It will be fun." The obedient kid will do it.

Along these lines, I don't know anyone who teaches their kids to blindly obey just anyone. To contrast your statement, I think most people would think, in that particular situation, a stereotypical "obedient kid" would obey what they've been taught by their parents (don't do drugs, mmmkay) and a "rebelious kid" would disobey their parents and take the pill. There are few kids (I hope) being taught to obey everyone who tells them to do something. Especially not same age peers.

 

There are certainly kids who are more prone to following the crowd, but I don't equate that with obedience at all. I have a sibling who disobeyed known rules in our household in order to impress friends and be in with a certain crowd.