Anxiety about school

[skimomma]

I will probably delete later so please don't quote.

 

Thanks everyone!

Edited September 6, 2016 by skimomma

[OneStepAtATime]

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

I would not withdraw her from the Latin class.  The anxiety is an issue but withdrawing seems like it is avoiding the issue.  She is going to need to learn how to cope with pressure and her perfectionism or she will struggle when she gets out on her own.  Enrolling in public school may not be a great idea either.  

 

I would seek counseling for her.  She may need help with a reset of her body chemistry at some point, either with specialized cognitive training/exercise/diet or meds.  Seek professional help.  

[katilac]

It's probably not anything you have done or anything you are doing - I definitely would not start switching around academics in hopes of improving things, the anxiety is its own issue that might manifest in any situation. 

 

I think one line is this: whenever a person cannot enjoy an excellent achievement because it's not a perfect achievement. Also, staying up a bit worrying the night before a test is fairly common, but staying up worrying about a test days away is not. 

 

So, yes, I'd be onboard with some counseling at this point. I'd continue with academics as planned while starting therapy. I'm a fan of cognitive behavior therapy, which tends to focus on specific goals, teaching skills, coping strategies, and so on. 

[wapiti]

I agree w/OneStep.  I wouldn't reduce academic challenge in order to avoid anxiety - that seems like a step in the wrong direction.  How to best go about treating the anxiety is a can of worms to be sure, though that'll depend on so many things, including the extent to which anxiety is a problem outside of academics.

 

If anything, for perfectionism in particular, I'd look for ways to push out the comfort zone further rather than reduce exposure to challenge.  If she could find out from classmates the types of grades they are receiving, maybe have some discussions with a teacher (probably one who is not you) about grades in general - what is "good enough", etc., how to learn from mistakes (I like to go with some quotes from Ruzczyk about how getting 100% on everything means you're not learning as much as you can).  I'm not sure where I'd start with professionals, though for targeting academic perfectionism specifically, I'd think about calling up our ed psych and asking for a recommendation.

[kalphs]

Hugs!
Been there, done that myself during my academic years.
I concur with One Step.
Based on the advice from our guidance counselor, my parents relented, and allowed me to see a counselor.
The counselor was able to pin point the anxiety issue, which had nothing to do with my academic workload. 
Dh and I have always encouraged Dd to put forth her best effort. 
We do not expect perfection, but we do expect her to work hard and persevere. 


 

[Arcadia]

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

 

I would not withdraw her from the Latin class. The anxiety is an issue but withdrawing seems like it is avoiding the issue. She is going to need to learn how to cope with pressure and her perfectionism or she will struggle when she gets out on her own. Enrolling in public school may not be a great idea either.

 

I would seek counseling for her. She may need help with a reset of her body chemistry at some point, either with specialized cognitive training/exercise/diet or meds. Seek professional help.

:iagree:

My kids and I are perfectionists. It manifests as crying and anger fits in my kids. They have gotten milder with age.

Her anxiety is above the norm. I'll get help because self help for anxiety is hard.

 

How is she with Art, Music or Sports?

[skimomma]

Thanks so much for these initial replies!  It is extremely helpful to hear from people who have been there and made me able to put this into perspective a little.  I tend to want to "fix" everything ASAP but it sounds like we should probably not make any rash educational changes right now.  

 

I have talked to dd about counseling.  She has never been before and is pretty resistant to the idea.  Should I push this if she does not want to see anyone?  Or any ideas on how we could frame it so that she would be more receptive?

[skimomma]

 

How is she with Art, Music or Sports?

 

This is interesting because she handles those very well.  She is a musician, which is part of the reason we are still homeschooling into the teen years when we had really planned for her to attend high school.  She has what I would call a normal level of anxiety about auditions and even less so about gigs.  She plays solo, in an orchestra, and with a band (all other members are adults) on a frequent basis.  She makes mistakes during performances, like any musician, and she handles that very very well.  A bad audition is disappointing to her but she does not dwell or fret about it.  She is also a songwriter and has performed alone or as a duo on large stages with almost no issue.  She does occasionally have to cut her own practice sessions short or take a break when she gets frustrated but I feel that it is well within the normal range and she seems to recover quickly.

 

She also is a nordic skier with all of the races and team events that go along with it.  Again, she gets a little bit of butterflies before a big race but nothing notable.  She handles races that go poorly well and does not beat herself up about mistakes or bad practices, or anything, really.  

[wapiti]

Well that is encouraging.  Perhaps there is a way to translate how she handles mistakes in music and sport settings over to academics.  Maybe she has an unrealistic view of what is expected and how others perform, not being in live, in-person classes?  What does she say when you try to communicate that to her?

[Arcadia]

What is the academic vibe in your house? Does she feel like there are no do-overs for academics but a not so good day in music or skiing is tolerable?

 

Also is she worried about high school GPA?

 

My BIL and his wife used to be extremely worried about academics but not for dance, music, sports. So their kids anxiety is all academics related. Not saying that might be what is happening for your child.

[skimomma]

Well that is encouraging.  Perhaps there is a way to translate how she handles mistakes in music and sport settings over to academics.  Maybe she has an unrealistic view of what is expected and how others perform, not being in live, in-person classes?  What does she say when you try to communicate that to her?

 

I do believe this is a big factor.  We do not have much of a homeschool community here so aside from one not-very-close friend all of her friends attend school.  The one who is homeschooled is really more of an unschooler so there is not much overlap.  I know her friends talk about school a lot and she has even looked at their homework/books/projects, but she has said many times that she does not really know how academically different she is.  

 

We talk about it a lot.  Dd is pretty much on grade level in all subjects and a little ahead in some.  She could easily be accelerated but we have chosen to broaden rather than accelerate, partly because of her anxiety and partly to free up time for her music interests.  Dd still worries that she is somehow behind and that she will not be prepared for college if she chooses to go.  It seems no amount of reassurances settles that.  And when she is unsure, she always defaults to the worst-case-scenario....especially in the middle of the night.  

[kalphs]

If she is resistant to the suggestion of counseling from you, is there an adult outside of your family who could talk with her?
I was resistant tooth and nail, until an adult I respected from outside our family talked with me.
 

[skimomma]

What is the academic vibe in your house? Does she feel like there are no do-overs for academics but a not so good day in music or skiing is tolerable?

 

Also is she worried about high school GPA?

 

My BIL and his wife used to be extremely worried about academics but not for dance, music, sports. So their kids anxiety is all academics related. Not saying that might be what is happening for your child.

 

Well, there is what I hope the vibe is and there is how dd feels the vibe is.  I suspect the real vibe is somewhere in the middle.

 

The do-over aspect should not be an issue.  She can (and does) do-over work on a regular basis.  For instance, we use AoPS for math which almost requires students to try even if you don't know what you are doing.  I would call math almost more of a conversation in our house rather than a class.  In general, I feel like my feedback is 95% positive or neutral.  There has never been anything that resembles an "I'm disappointed" conversation.  The 5% negative is almost always unrelated to grasping material or based on lack of "results."  It is usually more about not being prepared (where is your pencil?), procrastinating, not reading directions carefully, that sort of thing.  I am pretty sure she can at this point recite my speech about how I do not care what grade she gets on her Latin quiz because I watched and know she did everything anyone could possibly ask to prepare.  That sometimes things are just hard and you won't be perfect.  All that we ask is she try her best which we feel she is indeed doing.  This is a weekly speech in my house.  

 

GPA is not a specific concern yet.  She legitimately gets all As so it is not like she could be doing better.  Maybe she thinks those are not "real" As since I am the grade-giver.  But she also has gotten all As in her Latin class.

 

However, she is 100% in charge of her own music and sport.  She does not answer to us for those things on any level.  She IS accountable to her lesson instructor, her ski coaches, her teammates, and the other musicians in her groups.  She has witnessed her fellow adult band members get on each others' cases about a lack of practicing when there is a bad rehearsal.  They have never ever directed that at her and her sense of duty to the band means that she never shows up unprepared.  So, while she is not getting that pressure from us, she could feel the same things about those activities.....which she doesn't seem to, suggesting that the anxiety issue is specific to our relationship.

[wapiti]

How old is this dd?  What grade?  Thinking out loud, I wonder how much she knows about what is needed for college, what level of colleges she'd be interested in if she did go, etc.  Maybe it's time to educate her on all of that - knowledge is power, and knowledge of the college process may take quite some time for a student to learn, let alone develop a mature perspective on.

 

Where does she think she is behind?  Maybe there's a way to demonstrate to her that she is not, by comparing to classes at the local high school, for example.  Has she taken any standardized tests lately and have you shared results (this could be tricky but you can see where I'm going)?

Edited August 29, 2016 by wapiti

[skimomma]

If she is resistant to the suggestion of counseling from you, is there an adult outside of your family who could talk with her?

I was resistant tooth and nail, until an adult I respected from outside our family talked with me.

 

 

That is a good idea.  I will have to think on that one.  The thing that concerns me is that she might be pretty upset if she knew I discussed this with anyone as she is a very private person (hence, the plan to delete this later).  I may be able to compel her to start the discussion with a trusted adult.

[skimomma]

How old is this dd?  What grade?  Thinking out loud, I wonder how much she knows about what is needed for college, what level of colleges she'd be interested in if she did go, etc.  Maybe it's time to educate her on all of that - knowledge is power, and knowledge of the college process may take quite some time for a student to learn, let alone develop a mature perspective on.

 

Where does she think she is behind?  Maybe there's a way to demonstrate to her that she is not, by comparing to classes at the local high school, for example.  Has she taken any standardized tests lately and have you shared results (this could be tricky but you can see where I'm going)?

 

She is 13 and in 8th grade.  I posted on the HS board in hopes of getting feedback from people whose kids have come out the other side of this.

 

I think it is a very good idea to talk about what is expected to get into various types of colleges.  She is a little young yet to have a good idea of what type of major/college she might be interested in.  But the basics would probably be empowering.  We live in a college town and dh and I both work for the university so we tend to make the mistake of assuming that she just knows this stuff.  She has sat through more of my office hours than most of my students have!

 

She has not taken any standardized tests.  I admit to having neglected this completely.  To be honest, I don't even know how to go about having her take any.

[Arcadia]

I have the reverse problem, my kids think I am too stingy on marks (which is true). I would recommend SAT or ACT as a trial run except that she can see her results at 13 since registration is online. So if you think she won't be affected by percentiles on the score report, then it might be worth it.

 

Looks like her academic anxiety could be comparison anxiety. My 7th grader is having a draft high school plan on completing credits on "boring subjects". It gives some control to him. He read through the handbook for our district high school and webpages of private high schools. It gives him some baselines to consider. We use AoPS too.

 

My public middle school gives the high school orientation talk and tour to 8th graders in January usually. The private high schools close registration by December. Even though you intend to homeschool high school, maybe attending a private high school open house event might help? My boys have found those helpful in satisfying their curiosity.

[katilac]

I suggested therapy in my earlier post, but it's hard if she's opposed to it (and I don't think you are at the point of needing to push it, necessarily). After reading your followups, a few more thoughts: 

 

You might buy her a cognitive therapy workbook - just give it to her and let her decide whether to read it and work through it. The Cognitive Behavioral Workbook for Anxiety: A Step-By-Step Program is one good one, available on Amazon. 

 

Work on your own responses - I am not at all saying that you are responding in the wrong way now, just that it was very helpful to me to have some set responses so I don't get all caught up in their drama and/or anxiety. Just things like, yes, that does sound like it's going to be a hard test, good thing you're preparing early, and so on.  

 

If they get caught in the "I'm going to FAIL!!" web, I might say, you know what, it's possible you will fail. What happens if you do? it will affect your grade by x amount. Guess what? The world will keep turning if you do not get an A. It will even keep turning if you, gasp, fail the entire class!

 

Do you want to? No, of course not, but life goes on. All you can do is work hard and prepare. Even if you mess up spectacularly, quit going to class, and fail out of high school or college, life will go on. You can still pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go on to have a happy and productive life. 

 

Some kids really do need to be led, step by step, to the conclusion that not getting an A does not mean the end of the world. A 'B' letter grade is not the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, y'know? We are not going to disown you. You will still get into college. And so on. 

 

I would have a discussion with her about anxiety, and try to reach a consensus on when therapy is appropriate, for example when anxiety interferes with her ability to relax and be happy at other times, or when anxiety keeps her from participating in otherwise interesting activities. 

[skimomma]

 

My public middle school gives the high school orientation talk and tour to 8th graders in January usually. The private high schools close registration by December. Even though you intend to homeschool high school, maybe attending a private high school open house event might help? My boys have found those helpful in satisfying their curiosity.

 

That is an interesting idea.  We do not have any private high schools within about a two drive but I do wonder if there is something similar for one of the local public high schools.  I think I have heard that there is.  I will have to do some research.

 

She has asked several times to attend a day of school with a friend but when we have asked the schools, they of course say that it is not allowed.  I'm surprised because I remember visiting my cousin's public school growing up and she went to school with me once as well.  I'm not sure that would help so much with the comparison issue but it might at least show her what a typical day is.  She actually does not want to go to school but she is pretty convinced that the kids just hang out all day socializing!

[skimomma]

I suggested therapy in my earlier post, but it's hard if she's opposed to it (and I don't think you are at the point of needing to push it, necessarily). After reading your followups, a few more thoughts: 

 

You might buy her a cognitive therapy workbook - just give it to her and let her decide whether to read it and work through it. The Cognitive Behavioral Workbook for Anxiety: A Step-By-Step Program is one good one, available on Amazon. 

 

Work on your own responses - I am not at all saying that you are responding in the wrong way now, just that it was very helpful to me to have some set responses so I don't get all caught up in their drama and/or anxiety. Just things like, yes, that does sound like it's going to be a hard test, good thing you're preparing early, and so on.  

 

If they get caught in the "I'm going to FAIL!!" web, I might say, you know what, it's possible you will fail. What happens if you do? it will affect your grade by x amount. Guess what? The world will keep turning if you do not get an A. It will even keep turning if you, gasp, fail the entire class!

 

Do you want to? No, of course not, but life goes on. All you can do is work hard and prepare. Even if you mess up spectacularly, quit going to class, and fail out of high school or college, life will go on. You can still pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go on to have a happy and productive life. 

 

Some kids really do need to be led, step by step, to the conclusion that not getting an A does not mean the end of the world. A 'B' letter grade is not the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, y'know? We are not going to disown you. You will still get into college. And so on. 

 

I would have a discussion with her about anxiety, and try to reach a consensus on when therapy is appropriate, for example when anxiety interferes with her ability to relax and be happy at other times, or when anxiety keeps her from participating in otherwise interesting activities. 

 

So much good stuff here!  Thanks!  I think I will get the book for her.  She likes to research things she is concerned about so it might be a great tool or at the very least a jumping off point for us to talk about at what point getting outside help might be appropriate.

 

My second-most common speech is the "what is the worst that can happen?" talk.  That failure is not the end of the world.  Not even close.  I even showed her my college transcripts where I had a couple of failures and had to retake the class.  I TEACH one of those classes now so she knows it is recoverable in theory.  I almost wish she would actually fail a test so that she can see that it is indeed recoverable and she can work back from it.  

 

I try to be very very delicate when we have these talks but I'm sure there are things I say that do not help.

[Cathrynlyn]

Something to think about an undetected health change. Maybe a medical checkup is needed? including bloodwork for possibly iron deficiency, thyroid function, or anything else your doc suggests that could be related to mood changes. Obviously, if the anxiety gets much worse, she may need a bit less responsibility, counseling, and a bit of time to get better.

[Guest]

My dd found this book to be very helpful. She is about to turn 14, so about same age as your dd.

 

http://a.co/iG8recB

[skimomma]

Something to think about an undetected health change. Maybe a medical checkup is needed? including bloodwork for possibly iron deficiency, thyroid function, or anything else your doc suggests that could be related to mood changes. Obviously, if the anxiety gets much worse, she may need a bit less responsibility, counseling, and a bit of time to get better.

 

Good point.  She is scheduled for a check-up in two weeks so we can address this.  I would be surprised though.  This flavor of anxiety has been with us for some time.  We will for sure bring it up.  I want to treat lightly here because dd is the kind of kid that will start fretting about us fretting about her fretting.  

[wintermom]

Sounds like your dd is a bright and high achiever. Since you mentioned you were very hands-off in her music and sport environment, and she seems to handle stressful situations there very well, ask her what strategies she uses to tackle those situations so well. She might be able to try some specific strategies she already uses, perhaps without even intentionally thinking about. I've got a Master's degree in Sport Psychology, and there are lots of stress-reducing/performance-enhancing strategies which athletes and musicians use, that are also really useful in other stressful situations. Obviously, she can handle stress, but seems to have very specific anxiety for certain activities. Talk with her, and see if she can identify them herself and come up with a couple things to try.

 

If she says she doesn't have, or can't identify, the strategies she uses, you could try googling some sport psychology techniques. Some common ones are positive self-talk, visualization, breathing, goal-setting.

[skimomma]

Sounds like your dd is a bright and high achiever. Since you mentioned you were very hands-off in her music and sport environment, and she seems to handle stressful situations there very well, ask her what strategies she uses to tackle those situations so well. She might be able to try some specific strategies she already uses, perhaps without even intentionally thinking about. I've got a Master's degree in Sport Psychology, and there are lots of stress-reducing/performance-enhancing strategies which athletes and musicians use, that are also really useful in other stressful situations. Obviously, she can handle stress, but seems to have very specific anxiety for certain activities. Talk with her, and see if she can identify them herself and come up with a couple things to try.

 

If she says she doesn't have, or can't identify, the strategies she uses, you could try googling some sport psychology techniques. Some common ones are positive self-talk, visualization, breathing, goal-setting.

 

That is an excellent idea.  I never thought of asking her how she manages her anxiety for those things.  I also race and the anxiety I get before races is about the worst that it gets for me, even though there is absolutely nothing at stake except facing my own walls.  It always amazes me that she is such a cool cucumber when there is the potential of "letting down her team (or band or whatever)."  As I am writing this, I am coming back to the concern that her school anxiety is really rooted in letting us (her parents) down, even if we are telling her that is not the case.  She must be perceiving that anything less than perfect is not OK with us.  We tell her this but maybe she is not getting the message.  Hmmm.  Anyone have any book suggestions for that one?

 

I have been told by people that I am "intimidating."  I do not raise my voice and try to refrain from judgement of others.  Dh says that it is not the things I say but how I conduct myself.  I have a high standard for myself.  I do what I say I will, I am always on time, I am always prepared, I keep promises made to myself and others.  These are not things that I have ever struggled with.  I do not hold others to the same standards as I have for myself but dh (and other friends) say this does not matter, it is simply the fact that I conduct myself this way that intimidates others.  For example, I workout every day no matter what.  Dh does not.  He says he feels pressure to do so from me even though I have never EVER said he should and honestly do not think he should (he is far too pressed for time and it is not something he enjoys).  I asked him why he feels that pressure.  He says it is nothing I say, or even think, but the fact that I do it and make no excuses for myself.  I have never been able to fully understand this nor do I know what I could possibly do to change it.....it is just how I am.  But now I am beginning to wonder if this might be a contributing factor to dd's feelings about school specifically.

[Arcadia]

I do not hold others to the same standards as I have for myself but dh (and other friends) say this does not matter, it is simply the fact that I conduct myself this way that intimidates others.

... But now I am beginning to wonder if this might be a contributing factor to dd's feelings about school specifically.

Both your husband and you are teaching in college? You mentioned she sat in when you have study hours. Is she setting her academics standards based on what she see of you tutoring your students?

 

When I was in 7th-10th grade in an all girls school, we were joking about being able to tell which parents are teachers at back to school day and school fun fair day. A girl friend felt pressurised by having teachers for parents but her sisters did not feel the same need to be straight As student. We were comparing parents behavior during recess time :lol:

 

I do not think you have to change. There are many people like you and possibly your child's future bosses.

 

Could you reduce the talk? I am thinking maybe the pep talk is just no longer getting in. Like what your daughter hear and feel is a mismatch.

 

Maybe monitor and see if it gets better when her science class starts. At the same time see if you know anyone in academia that is more "laid back" which you can introduce to your daughter. Someone with mixed standards instead of all high standards.

 

Edited for funny autocorrects

Edited August 30, 2016 by Arcadia

[Grantmom]

I think it sounds like she is very capable of handling stress and stressful situations, and it's more just anxiety around schoolwork.  I would try to talk to her about it and just keep sharing more and more about what is "normal".  For example, you might tell her that in the past, with your own homeschooling practices, you could work towards mastery, and that ultimately of course that is the goal.  But in a classroom situation, if you are getting a 100 on everything, then why are you even taking that class?  You probably don't need to be taking that class if you get a 100 on everything.

 

I definitely think that being more isolated in terms of other high school age homeschoolers might give her a false sense of what she should expect from herself.  We have a similar situation here, where we have very few other homeschoolers in high school here.

[wintermom]

That is an excellent idea.  I never thought of asking her how she manages her anxiety for those things.  I also race and the anxiety I get before races is about the worst that it gets for me, even though there is absolutely nothing at stake except facing my own walls.  It always amazes me that she is such a cool cucumber when there is the potential of "letting down her team (or band or whatever)."  As I am writing this, I am coming back to the concern that her school anxiety is really rooted in letting us (her parents) down, even if we are telling her that is not the case.  She must be perceiving that anything less than perfect is not OK with us.  We tell her this but maybe she is not getting the message.  Hmmm.  Anyone have any book suggestions for that one?

 

I have been told by people that I am "intimidating."  I do not raise my voice and try to refrain from judgement of others.  Dh says that it is not the things I say but how I conduct myself.  I have a high standard for myself.  I do what I say I will, I am always on time, I am always prepared, I keep promises made to myself and others.  These are not things that I have ever struggled with.  I do not hold others to the same standards as I have for myself but dh (and other friends) say this does not matter, it is simply the fact that I conduct myself this way that intimidates others.  For example, I workout every day no matter what.  Dh does not.  He says he feels pressure to do so from me even though I have never EVER said he should and honestly do not think he should (he is far too pressed for time and it is not something he enjoys).  I asked him why he feels that pressure.  He says it is nothing I say, or even think, but the fact that I do it and make no excuses for myself.  I have never been able to fully understand this nor do I know what I could possibly do to change it.....it is just how I am.  But now I am beginning to wonder if this might be a contributing factor to dd's feelings about school specifically.

 

What your dh says is "intimidating" could very easily seen by another as inspiring. I love seeing someone get out there and do things. It motivates me to do more; to see that consistency is possible. I wouldn't blame yourself for other's reactions of your actions.

 

I'd just focus on your dd; on how SHE perceives things, leaving completely out of the picture YOUR behaviour. It really is about her being able to deal with her own expectations of herself in the long run. This is where it's so helpful to get a professional with no emotional investment in the situation involved in discussions and strategies with your dd.

Edited August 30, 2016 by wintermom

[skimomma]

Both your husband and you are teaching in college? You mentioned she sat in when you have study hours. Is she setting her academics standards based on what she see of you tutoring your students?

 

 

 

Interesting.  I teach at the university, dh is staff.  Because we live in a university town, most of our friends and even most of dd's friends' parents are either faculty or staff at the university.  Most are very highly educated and intelligent.  Our social group is very tight (closer than family) and we spend a great deal of time practically living together so she hears a lot of talk about teaching and students at the college level.  One thing that I talk about a lot is how my favorite students are usually the students that struggle.  They are the ones asking for help more often and the ones I get to know better.  My best students either don't need me, so rarely engage with me, or they are the ones in my office hour dickering over a half point on the last homework assignment (which is my biggest teaching pet peeve).  But yes, absolutely, she might be trying to meet the expectations I have of my adult-aged students at a rigorous university in my classes that also happen to be in a difficult field.  It sounds like what someone said upthread about talking about the differences between high school, college, and even different types of college/majors might be long overdue.

[skimomma]

What your dh says is "intimidating" could very easily seen by another as inspiring. I love seeing someone get out there and do things. It motivates me to do more; to see that consistency is possible. I wouldn't blame yourself for other's reactions of your actions.

 

I'd just focus on your dd; on how SHE perceives things, leaving completely out of the picture YOUR behaviour. It really is about her being able to deal with her own expectations of herself in the long run. This is where it's so helpful to get a professional with no emotional investment in the situation involved in discussions and strategies with your dd.

 

Thanks.  It helps to kick this around with people.  There have been other times in my parenting journey when I have eventually had to conclude that sometimes you are just "stuck" with the parents you have.  As long as I am trying my best to keep her best interests in mind, I cannot go around trying to blame myself for innate personality traits.  It is usually a sign that I am overthinking (one of my big flaws) when I go there.

 

I have gotten some great advice here on different tools for helping dd with this.  I feel pretty confident that at the very least I have some new ways to open the conversation in a more positive light.  I do hope that I can find a way to encourage dd to talk to someone other than me if the anxiety continues or gets worse.  I know a big part of this is just 13-year-old-girl.  They are strange creatures.

[lllll]

nm 

 

Edited November 7, 2016 by cathey

[Corraleno]

I have a very similar kid — right down to the freak-outs over getting a 95 in Latin! He also competes in a sport at a very high level, but doesn't have the same level of anxiety about sports (definitely nervous before a competition, but not at the OMG-my-life-is-over-I'll-never-go-to-college level that happens with academics).

 

I think that, for him, the main difference between academics and sports is that he sees his sport as something he does, whereas he sees academics as a measure of who he is. He knows that his sport involves learning particular skills, that everyone starts at zero, and that the only thing riding on any particular competition is pride. He can walk into a fencing competition knowing that if he screws up, there'll be another one in a few weeks and no one will care or remember what happened at this one. He also knows that he can walk away from the whole thing at any time, with zero long-term consequences. He loves fencing, but it doesn't define him.

 

OTOH, when he takes an exam or submits a paper, he doesn't just see it as a measure of current skills, he sees it as a measure of intelligence. So getting a bad grade ("bad" being relative) means he's dumb, and dumb is for life. Grades also go on permanent transcripts, so everyone who ever sees his transcript will know he's dumb!!! And bad grades on the transcript mean not getting into college, and being dumb means flunking out even if you manage to get there, and the consequences of that are pervasive and life-long. So, for anxious/perfectionist kids who are prone to catastrophizing and overgeneralizing, it's easy to blow up a less-than-perfect grade into something that will haunt you for the rest of your life and quite possibly ruin everything.

 

Another difference is that it's easy to see where you stand compared to other people in a sport: there are competitions and national rankings, and the pay-off for hard work is usually steady progress up the rankings and an increase in medals won. It's harder to see "progress" when you got a 100 on a test last week and a 95 this week, and it's especially hard for homeschoolers to see where they stand relative to other students. It's much easier to think that a 95 sucks if you're only comparing it to a perfect score, instead of to the normal range of student grades.  

 

Also, in sports you tend to keep doing the same thing over and over, just at a higher level and with more skill. In academics, often as soon as you succeed in one subject, you switch to another. After a year of tears, you managed an A in Algebra? Awesome — now start over with Geometry! You squeaked out an A in Physics? Terrific — next year we do Biology! No one tells an athlete "now that you've earned national medals in downhill, you need to switch to cross-country" or "hey, congrats on the top 20 ranking in foil — now you have to start over in sabre." Or, for that matter, no one tells a musician who just made first chair in violin that next year she needs to switch to bassoon. So for kids who stress over academics, each school year brings new reasons to worry that they'll struggle and fail.

 

One thing that I try to emphasize with DS is that expecting to get 100% on every test is like expecting to win every bout 15-0 (i.e. never making a single mistake or giving up a single point) and deciding that anything less equals failure, even if the bout was actually a win (like getting 95% on a Lukeion test!). That's insanely unrealistic. I second the recommendation upthread for going through a CBT book to help your DD understand that dysfunctional reactions like catastrophizing (95 = disaster!), overgeneralizing (it means I'm dumb!), black-&-white thinking (less-than-perfect = failure, there's nothing in between!) and crystal-balling (now I'll never get into college!) are very common manifestations of anxiety. Being able to label those feelings, and see them for what they are (distorted thinking, not accurate assessments), can be very helpful, although it may take a long time to have a real impact. 

 

 

 

Edited August 31, 2016 by Corraleno

[skimomma]

Thanks to the most recent posters for sharing your experiences.  So many similarities.  Especially the 95% syndrome.  In dd's case, she sees it as missing 5% that will need to be built on and will snowball into more and more points off.  This might even be my fault because I have always emphasized retouching on weak math concepts because holes in comprehension can snowball.  I like the idea of starting to draw analogies to sports and music...how she can win a race or have a great gig even though she made mistakes.  And also how when she does not win the race, or even comes in last, she learns something and still sees value in the experience.

 

The book is on the way.  I showed her the amazon link and she was all about it.  

 

I also see the timeline being an issue.  Deadlines are a bit new to her since we have always flexed our homeschool schedule to accommodate for extra time when needed (or speeding up when not) and adjusting for travel and illness.  The rigidity of her Latin class has been stressful for her.  I cannot even count how many quizzes and homework assignments have happened in McDonald's parking lots, ski chalets, and airports.  

[wintermom]

 

I also see the timeline being an issue.  Deadlines are a bit new to her since we have always flexed our homeschool schedule to accommodate for extra time when needed (or speeding up when not) and adjusting for travel and illness.  The rigidity of her Latin class has been stressful for her.  I cannot even count how many quizzes and homework assignments have happened in McDonald's parking lots, ski chalets, and airports.  

 

Sounds like a portion of her academic anxiety could be a lack of time. If she's really busy with her music and skiing, then trying to fit in on-line courses with strict deadline may not be a good fit. Maybe she can do Latin with a tutor or a different type of learning environment that offers more flexibility. Or maybe her sport and/or music activities need to be reduced or streamlined. Look at your priorities and realistic time needs, and see how things could be made more manageable for her. 

[Corraleno]

I also see the timeline being an issue.  Deadlines are a bit new to her since we have always flexed our homeschool schedule to accommodate for extra time when needed (or speeding up when not) and adjusting for travel and illness.  The rigidity of her Latin class has been stressful for her.  I cannot even count how many quizzes and homework assignments have happened in McDonald's parking lots, ski chalets, and airports.  

 

Same here! Not to mention having to work ahead or take quizzes several days early to accommodate competitions. 

 

I think it's good practice, though, to start with a class or two that has firm deadlines, and gradually build up from there. Especially if your student plans to continue competing and playing music in college. Then it'll be 4 or 5 courses, not just one, with firm deadlines and heavy workloads, and she'll have to figure out how to balance all that. This year (12th) DS will have 3 outside classes with real deadlines plus another couple of co-op classes (with firm schedules but no real consequences for missing them) plus a couple of at-home classes (where I can be flexible), combined with an intense training schedule (20-25 hrs/wk) and an ambitious competition schedule with lots of travel. Better to figure out how to juggle that now than get to college and either lose a scholarship due to poor grades or lose a slot on the team due to being unable to practice or compete (or losing academic eligibility!).

[skimomma]

Sounds like a portion of her academic anxiety could be a lack of time. If she's really busy with her music and skiing, then trying to fit in on-line courses with strict deadline may not be a good fit. Maybe she can do Latin with a tutor or a different type of learning environment that offers more flexibility. Or maybe her sport and/or music activities need to be reduced or streamlined. Look at your priorities and realistic time needs, and see how things could be made more manageable for her. 

 

 

We have been working on this.  Time is not as much of a factor as physical location.  The psychology of a fixed deadline is difficult for dd, but in reality there is always plenty of time (hours and hours in the car) if she (with help) plans ahead.  But often that time is not at home.  That is always going to be a factor in her education and partly why we tried out one online class to see how it went knowing it would sometimes be tricky with travel.  We are learning how to manage it better and this year's class time and schedule actually will be much easier to manage.  Her teammates who all go to public school are doing their schoolwork on the road as well.  They actually have it much harder because they miss quite a bit of instruction.  But, yes, I am sure that contributes to the anxiety.  I try to combat that by having us both sit down well ahead of travel so we can map out a manageable plan with lots of extra time included just in case she needs it.....mostly to quell her anxiety since she rarely does need it.

 

We have learned a lot from her Latin experience.  What works well for us in online offering and what doesn't.  We will for sure take that into consideration when making future choices.  But for now, I have a kid who wants to continue and I don't want to pull her against her will unless I feel it is necessary for her well-being.  I feel she is old enough to make that decision knowing it is not a perfect fit with her lifestyle.  I have, however, adjusted other subjects to accommodate the chaos that Latin sometimes causes.

[skimomma]

Same here! Not to mention having to work ahead or take quizzes several days early to accommodate competitions. 

 

I think it's good practice, though, to start with a class or two that has firm deadlines, and gradually build up from there. Especially if your student plans to continue competing and playing music in college. Then it'll be 4 or 5 courses, not just one, with firm deadlines and heavy workloads, and she'll have to figure out how to balance all that. This year (12th) DS will have 3 outside classes with real deadlines plus another couple of co-op classes (with firm schedules but no real consequences for missing them) plus a couple of at-home classes (where I can be flexible), combined with an intense training schedule (20-25 hrs/wk) and an ambitious competition schedule with lots of travel. Better to figure out how to juggle that now than get to college and either lose a scholarship due to poor grades or lose a slot on the team due to being unable to practice or compete (or losing academic eligibility!).

 

I agree it is good practice as long as she can manage it without too much stress.  She does have a long time to get to the point that she may or may not need to be in college so I would not push on in Latin unless she wanted to.  And I still hold the reigns on the rest of her education so can maneuver flexibility in when needed.  I have many student athletes in my classes and despite stereotypes, they are usually some of the best students despite having to miss a lot of class and working from the road.  They are organized, ask for assignments well ahead of time, keep me informed of when they will miss, and tend to do very well.  I am actually in awe of some of them.  It sounds like your son will be one and it is great you have been able to get him there despite the anxiety.

 

The fact is that despite all of her concern, she somehow has finished every school year ahead of schedule.  I can tell her that we can temporarily back off of other subjects if one is keeping her up at night and it seems to help calm her but the reality is that she rarely needs the back-off when it comes down to it.  I feel like it might not matter how much or how little an aspect of school will demand, I think she would still stress out about it.  She has had her biggest concerns before the things she has been most prepared for and done the best on.  She almost somehow has less anxiety when the pressure seems higher (to me anyway).  

[Clemsondana]

My children aren't yet this age, but I teach high schoolers at our co-op and used to teach at a community college.  One thing that I emphasize to my students (or their parents) after the occasional freak-out is that their grades don't represent their worth as a person, their intelligence, or their ability to learn the imformation.  They reflect how much they knew about the material being tested at the particular time that they took the test.  Some students learn every bit of the material because they are interested, or because it's easy for them, or because they're perfectionists, but it doesn't make them 'better'.  I once had to tell a parent that their child's B on a test didn't represent their value as a human, just their knowledge of metabolic processes...

 

Another thing for her to keep in mind when taking classes by somebody else is that many teachers don't have the expectation that students will earn 100% (I know that there are many philosophies about how to grade and what grades represent).  Depending on the subject, sometimes a teacher looks at a paper and know that it is clearly A work but there are things that the student could improve upon - potentially details that wouldn't be important for a C student, but things that an A student could get right - so they take off a point here and there.  In other words, for some teachers, once the student has earned an A, there isn't really a difference to the teacher between a 95% and a 98% or 100% - they are all excellent work, and comments (and the associated missing points) are there to help the student.  I don't know if this helps, but it might give her a different perspective (said as somebody who took a few college science classes where the tests were designed so that you couldn't finish them - I got an A in a class where I had the top score, never above an 85 on any test - it was weird and stressful, but looking back it was a valid way to run that particular class).